Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2013/12/18/one-weird-old-trick/ I found this post interesting. A 2011 study of 6,000 children’s books published between 1900 and 2000 showed that only 31 percent had female central characters. While the disparity has declined in recent years, it persists—particularly, and interestingly, among animal characters. And many books with girl protagonists take place in male-dominated worlds, peopled with male doctors and male farmers and mothers who have to ask fathers for grocery money (Richard Scarry, I’m looking at you). So what happens if you switch genders? The author did this with Bilbo Baggins at her daughter's insistence. The switch was easy. Bilbo, it turns out, makes a terrific heroine. She’s tough, resourceful, humble, funny, and uses her wits to make off with a spectacular piece of jewelry. Perhaps most importantly, she never makes an issue of her gender—and neither does anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Another Jen Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I love that. We switched MIlly Molly Mandy to her friend Billy when my youngest was 4. Such a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I find that strange and unnecessary. The Hobbit is a famous book. Very much so. When the author's daughter gets older, she's going to have to admit that Bilbo Baggins is not a girl. It's just weird to change it. I've never personally seen a shortage in books with strong, likable female characters. Anne of Green Gables Heidi A Little Princess The Secret Garden (not so likable in the beginning, but by the end) The Little House series (Laura works at a job she hates to send Mary to college) Pride and Prejudice Jane Eyre Alice in Wonderland Swallows and Amazons (Nancy is an even stronger character than John) Narnia - Lucy is the one who's right about the whole thing in the first place! She's closest with Aslan. And all of the books have a female heroine who at least ends up good in the end. Little Women I could go on and on. So why mess with famous literature? For that matter I've never minded reading about male protagonists either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 But the lack of female protagonists isn't limited to literature. How many strong female leads do you find in picture books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Chester's Way. The Adventures of Isabel. Elouise. Swamp Angel. The Outside Dog. A Ride on the Red Mare's Back. Sable. Madeline. Lilly's Purple Plastic Purse. Chrysanthemum. ect. Shorter/Easier Literature? Sarah Plain and Tall Caddie Woodlawn Magical Melons Beverly Cleary's Ramona Books or Emily Books Island of the Blue Dolphins True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle Flame over Tara Stink Alley Blue Willow Out of the Dust Rules of the Road Almost Famous A Year Down Yonder Daddy Long Legs Betsy Tacy series Hope's Crossing Number the Stars ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/06/gender-imbalance-children-s-literature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 So what happens if you switch genders? The author did this with Bilbo Baggins at her daughter's insistence. I find that strange and unnecessary. The Hobbit is a famous book. Very much so. When the author's daughter gets older, she's going to have to admit that Bilbo Baggins is not a girl. It's just weird to change it. The OP says she changed it *at her daughter's insistence. In no way does it imply that she lied to her daughter about the sex of Bilbo. If my daughter wanted a read aloud with a female protagonist, why not change it? I've never personally seen a shortage in books with strong, likable female characters. Anne of Green Gables Heidi A Little Princess The Secret Garden (not so likable in the beginning, but by the end) The Little House series (Laura works at a job she hates to send Mary to college) Pride and Prejudice Jane Eyre Alice in Wonderland Swallows and Amazons (Nancy is an even stronger character than John) Narnia - Lucy is the one who's right about the whole thing in the first place! She's closest with Aslan. And all of the books have a female heroine who at least ends up good in the end. Little Women The majority of these women (even the strong, likable ones) have stories that rely on other people to take care of them and/or catching a husband. And Narnia, really? Susan loses her ability to even go to Narnia once she is sexually aware. I don't mind reading about male protagonists. But, I definitely don't think these are the same type of protagonist as Bilbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 If this is an issue that one is going to feel strongly about, I think the better solution is to advocate for more books with female protagonists to be authored rather than to change books that have already been written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The majority of these women (even the strong, likable ones) have stories that rely on other people to take care of them and/or catching a husband. And Narnia, really? Susan loses her ability to even go to Narnia once she is sexually aware. I don't mind reading about male protagonists. But, I definitely don't think these are the same type of protagonist as Bilbo. It's good to take care of each other. Nothing wrong with that. As far as Narnia goes: I don't think that's the reason at all. :huh: Susan can't go to Narnia anymore because she stops believing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 "If this is an issue that one is going to feel strongly about, I think the better solution is to advocate for more books with female protagonists to be authored rather than to change books that have already been written." I agree. But why is it problematic that the daughter asked for the pronoun change? She obviously enjoyed the story and identified with Bilbo more strongly once he was now a she. Eta: added quote to clarify my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's good to take care of each other. Nothing wrong with that. As far as Narnia goes: I don't think that's the reason at all. :huh: Susan can't go to Narnia anymore because she stops believing. Huh, she and Peter can't go at the same time -- it's not like he gets to keep going and she doesn't. I thought it was just because they were growing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Huh, she and Peter can't go at the same time -- it's not like he gets to keep going and she doesn't. I thought it was just because they were growing up. Yes, in the first place. But if I'm remembering correctly, later, in the Last Battle, Susan has stopped believing and thus can't return even when Peter does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Yes, in the first place. But if I'm remembering correctly, later, in the Last Battle, Susan has stopped believing and thus can't return even when Peter does. Ah, right, yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's good to take care of each other. Nothing wrong with that. True. But what about adventuring? Roaming off to the wild on a quest? Being the heroine and not the one saved? Granted, children's literature has gotten better at having female protagonists, but there's still a long road to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Nowadays, a lot of storytelling media includes an interactive component, either directly (think Choose Your Own Adventure, or video games) or indirectly (think fan fiction, cosplay, etc.). The kids who are into these kinds of things - taking stock characters and re-working them in various ways - tend to go on to be adults in creative careers or hobbies, in my experience. I think it's good for kids to take the literature they are exposed to and deconstruct it, alter it, rebuild it, play with it, mix it up, mash it up, and create something new. By doing this, they can really get deeply into understanding the original story/characters, which after all is part of what we want them to get out of an exposure to literature. A five year old who is involved enough with literature to begin this process is on the right track, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 "If this is an issue that one is going to feel strongly about, I think the better solution is to advocate for more books with female protagonists to be authored rather than to change books that have already been written." I agree. But why is it problematic that the daughter asked for the pronoun change? She obviously enjoyed the story and identified with Bilbo more strongly once he was now a she. Eta: added quote to clarify my post. I just think it's weird and creates too many potential problems later. I have really fond memories of books and those memories really help me bond with other people because of our common interest. If someone is going to turn Bilbo Baggins into a girl, then that makes it harder for child (once older) to relate to others over the book because their perceptions will be very different. To know that I intentionally made-believe that a book was different in such a major way? I would be bothered by that. If daughter was too young to appreciate a story like the Hobbit without a female lead, I'd just wait a couple years and try again and find a different book to read in the meantime. I don't see the need to indulge a strange wish like that. I guess I just don't believe in messing with/denying reality. Bilbo Baggins isn't a girl. End of story in my book (no pun intended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 True. But what about adventuring? Roaming off to the wild on a quest? Being the heroine and not the one saved? Granted, children's literature has gotten better at having female protagonists, but there's still a long road to go. I have no objection to seeing more adventure/quest books with female heroines. I think there are books like that available though. You (ETA: general you; not directed at anyone in particular) just might have to look a little harder. Julie of the Wolves, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I read an article once that talked about some of the dynamics that made Harry Potter such a success. Some of the things mentioned....JK Rowling didn't use her real name in order to hide the fact that she was a female. She used a male lead. The thought behind this is that girls will read a book with a male lead but guys will not typically read a book with a female lead. I am not saying that I agree. It is simply reality, whether we like it or not :( What about Hunger Games? Does that break the trend mentioned above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The OP says she changed it *at her daughter's insistence. In no way does it imply that she lied to her daughter about the sex of Bilbo. If my daughter wanted a read aloud with a female protagonist, why not change it? BTW, I mean the daughter would have to admit that Bilbo is really a boy. Not the mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 When I was young (esp. in my tween years) I used to "write" myself into stories. (Including LOTR) many of the stories I loved could not be played out unless I took on a male part. So, I would create a character to insert into the story that way I could play out the narrative without pretending to be a boy. I absolutely love and cherish my multiple readings of the Hobbit and LOTR as a child. It was not varnished by my imaginative alterations. And I had no trouble keeping my story and the piece of Lit. separate in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The problem is that female characters in older books were curtailed in ways boys were not - and the way girls today are not. I love Jane Eyre and Little Women and some of the others but they are very much about women's limited options. Very valuable as a history lesson and in teaching versatility and perseverance. But none of them get to be adventurers, scientists, spies, or any other wish-fulfillment job that is so valuable in stories. I'm not saying always change them, but let's not pretend it's equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 I just think it's weird and creates too many potential problems later. I have really fond memories of books and those memories really help me bond with other people because of our common interest. If someone is going to turn Bilbo Baggins into a girl, then that makes it harder for child (once older) to relate to others over the book because their perceptions will be very different. To know that I intentionally made-believe that a book was different in such a major way? I would be bothered by that. If daughter was too young to appreciate a story like the Hobbit without a female lead, I'd just wait a couple years and try again and find a different book to read in the meantime. I don't see the need to indulge a strange wish like that. I guess I just don't believe in messing with/denying reality. Bilbo Baggins isn't a girl. End of story in my book (no pun intended). I think this comment does not give children enough credit. They adapt easily to situations. I can't see a child who opts to relate to Bilbo as a girl growing up not able to switch to his originally male casting. In fact, I could see it leading to interesting literature discussions later on. I have no objection to seeing more adventure/quest books with female heroines. I think there are books like that available though. You (ETA: general you; not directed at anyone in particular) just might have to look a little harder. Julie of the Wolves, anyone? But why should we have to look harder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I think this comment does not give children enough credit. They adapt easily to situations. I can't see a child who opts to relate to Bilbo as a girl growing up not able to switch to his originally male casting. In fact, I could see it leading to interesting literature discussions later on. I still think it's just way too weird and strange. Strikes much too close for comfort for me to all the weird gender things going on these days. But why should we have to look harder? Because that's the way things are?? :huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 And that's why it needs awareness for change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't know. I didn't find it necessary to change Laura into Laurie when I read my boys some of the Little House books. For what it is worth, they frankly preferred Banks of Plum Creek to Farmer Boy. Had nothing to do with whether the protagonist was male or female, it was all about how much they liked the story. Kind of funny BLA5 about "writing" in a female character to act out the stories. I distinctly remember being grateful if there were male characters in a book as protagonists because I identified so strongly with them. I read and enjoyed stories with female characters, but when it came down to whether I wanted to be Nancy Drew or Jim Hawkins--hands down, Jim won. I had no qualms about grabbing a male role and running with it. It never seemed strange to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't know. I didn't find it necessary to change Laura into Laurie when I read my boys some of the Little House books. For what it is worth, they frankly preferred Banks of Plum Creek to Farmer Boy. Had nothing to do with whether the protagonist was male or female, it was all about how much they liked the story. Kind of funny BLA5 about "writing" in a female character to act out the stories. I distinctly remember being grateful if there were male characters in a book as protagonists because I identified so strongly with them. I read and enjoyed stories with female characters, but when it came down to whether I wanted to be Nancy Drew or Jim Hawkins--hands down, Jim won. I had no qualms about grabbing a male role and running with it. It never seemed strange to me. So if those male protagonists had the exact same stories just a proper name/ pronoun change, you would still have identified as strongly with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's good to take care of each other. Nothing wrong with that. As far as Narnia goes: I don't think that's the reason at all. :huh: Susan can't go to Narnia anymore because she stops believing. THIS. Sorry. It's a common misconception that it's otherwise - but this is the real reason. I just think it's weird and creates too many potential problems later. I have really fond memories of books and those memories really help me bond with other people because of our common interest. If someone is going to turn Bilbo Baggins into a girl, then that makes it harder for child (once older) to relate to others over the book because their perceptions will be very different. To know that I intentionally made-believe that a book was different in such a major way? I would be bothered by that. If daughter was too young to appreciate a story like the Hobbit without a female lead, I'd just wait a couple years and try again and find a different book to read in the meantime. I don't see the need to indulge a strange wish like that. I guess I just don't believe in messing with/denying reality. Bilbo Baggins isn't a girl. End of story in my book (no pun intended). I agree. I don't see the point of it. If someone else wants to do it, I don't care. Whatever. To each their own. I just like to, especially upon the first time reading a book, make sure it's done 'right'. ;) When I was young (esp. in my tween years) I used to "write" myself into stories. (Including LOTR) many of the stories I loved could not be played out unless I took on a male part. So, I would create a character to insert into the story that way I could play out the narrative without pretending to be a boy. I absolutely love and cherish my multiple readings of the Hobbit and LOTR as a child. It was not varnished by my imaginative alterations. And I had no trouble keeping my story and the piece of Lit. separate in my mind. :lol: Yeah, I sort of did this, too. Except I usually threw myself in as a completely new character, a girl, who was just as strong and bada$$ as any of the male characters. In Star Wars, my character had two lightsabers that could be put together end to end long before Darth Maul was ever around. ;) Only they were pink. And she was hot on top of all her other awesomeness. :D Ok, I won't lie, sometimes now I make up stories in my head, too, to fall asleep at night. I'll insert a new character into a show I'm currently watching or a book, and it knocks me out in minutes. :D :lol: And that's why it needs awareness for change. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I just think it isn't necessary to change the pronouns in children's books currently. But if people decide to do it, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think I would have identified as strongly with Jim Hawkins had he been changed to say, Jenny Hawkins. I really don't. It would not have seemed right in the story context to me. I enjoyed stories with female protagonists: but I wasn't fond of "being" those characters. I wouldn't say I'm plot driven in my mind, but I do have a strong preference for more "male" fiction. I guess it's a good thing I had boys! As a writer, I often develop a strong sense of a character as male or female. It just "fits" the story. They could be the protagonist or a supporting character, but when they come to me, they have a gender assigned in my mind, and it isn't as simple as changing the pronouns or altering back-story. I guess I would feel very uncomfortable doing that to someone else's writing, because how I come up with a character, the situations I put him in, his own particular reasons for being who he is, and how he relates to the other characters would have to change. So it wouldn't be simple for me. I don't suppose that makes sense, because it is all very difficult to explain how a character just comes into my mind and writes his story, but there it is. I've got plenty of female characters I feel the same way about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's good to take care of each other. Nothing wrong with that. Of course not! You realize I've been a stay at home mom for nearly *20 years*? But, that shouldn't be all girls get. As far as Narnia goes: I don't think that's the reason at all. :huh: Susan can't go to Narnia anymore because she stops believing. I've read Narnia many, many times. I majored in Literature. I *strongly* disagree (to put it mildly) with your perspective. That isn't *at all* what the book says. It says that she is "no longer a friend of Narnia", and "she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations." LOTS of critical readers, literary critics and other authors disagree with you. Neil Gaiman even has a story dealing with the issue. I just think it's weird and creates too many potential problems later. I have really fond memories of books and those memories really help me bond with other people because of our common interest. If someone is going to turn Bilbo Baggins into a girl, then that makes it harder for child (once older) to relate to others over the book because their perceptions will be very different. Why? Why would the perception be so different because one pretended the protagonist was a girl? To know that I intentionally made-believe that a book was different in such a major way? I would be bothered by that. Then don't do it. To place your own hangups on someone else is sort of weirdly controlling. If daughter was too young to appreciate a story like the Hobbit without a female lead, I'd just wait a couple years and try again and find a different book to read in the meantime. I don't see the need to indulge a strange wish like that. I don't think a wish to see an element of yourself reflected in an adventure story is that odd at all. I have no objection to seeing more adventure/quest books with female heroines. I think there are books like that available though. You (ETA: general you; not directed at anyone in particular) just might have to look a little harder. Julie of the Wolves, anyone? So, you are going to replace a fun adventure story with a story in which a girl has to run away from an (implied) attempted rape and abusive situation? Because that is totally the same sort of story? I hope you just looked up "girl adventure books" and haven't actually read that book yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think I would have identified as strongly with Jim Hawkins had he been changed to say, Jenny Hawkins. I really don't. It would not have seemed right in the story context to me. I enjoyed stories with female protagonists: but I wasn't fond of "being" those characters. I wouldn't say I'm plot driven in my mind, but I do have a strong preference for more "male" fiction. I guess it's a good thing I had boys! As a writer, I often develop a strong sense of a character as male or female. It just "fits" the story. They could be the protagonist or a supporting character, but when they come to me, they have a gender assigned in my mind, and it isn't as simple as changing the pronouns or altering back-story. I guess I would feel very uncomfortable doing that to someone else's writing, because how I come up with a character, the situations I put him in, his own particular reasons for being who he is, and how he relates to the other characters would have to change. So it wouldn't be simple for me. I don't suppose that makes sense, because it is all very difficult to explain how a character just comes into my mind and writes his story, but there it is. I've got plenty of female characters I feel the same way about. Why would a young child have the same hang-ups though? And I agree with the post above. Most bookish kids today are into fan fic, gender-swapping, shipping and so forth. They don't feel married to the author's vision. That's what art is about, in the end, touching other people. You can't control how people see (and to some extent shape) your art once you release it into the world. eta: I five starred the thread because I don't understand why someone would give it one star. Get a grip, people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 THIS. Sorry. It's a common misconception that it's otherwise - but this is the real reason. I agree. I don't see the point of it. If someone else wants to do it, I don't care. Whatever. To each their own. I just like to, especially upon the first time reading a book, make sure it's done 'right'. ;) :lol: Yeah, I sort of did this, too. Except I usually threw myself in as a completely new character, a girl, who was just as strong and bada$$ as any of the male characters. In Star Wars, my character had two lightsabers that could be put together end to end long before Darth Maul was ever around. ;) Only they were pink. And she was hot on top of all her other awesomeness. :D Ok, I won't lie, sometimes now I make up stories in my head, too, to fall asleep at night. I'll insert a new character into a show I'm currently watching or a book, and it knocks me out in minutes. :D :lol: I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I just think it isn't necessary to change the pronouns in children's books currently. But if people decide to do it, whatever. That is what I tended to do as well. Ex- for LOTR I created a character who was the granddaughter of Gandalf. She could do magic, ride as well as the men of Rohan, and would fly in aback an eagle to battle. She was pretty cool! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 <snip> I've read Narnia many, many times. I majored in Literature. I *strongly* disagree (to put it mildly) with your perspective. That isn't *at all* what the book says. It says that she is "no longer a friend of Narnia", and "she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations." LOTS of critical readers, literary critics and other authors disagree with you. Neil Gaiman even has a story dealing with the issue. <snip> She became worldly -- more concerned with the things of this world than the world of Narnia. After a time she stopped believing, calling it all a fairy story. When the story ended (in The Last Battle) she was not with everyone else and they realized that she was never really one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't know if modern children would have the same fascination with plot that I did as a child. I was far from normal, I guess.. It never bothered me to switch MY gender from male/female whenever I needed to shift perspective. I didn't need to change the character to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 She became worldly -- more concerned with the things of this world than the world of Narnia. Right. That was my initial point. She gets interested in nylons, lipstick and invitations (sexual awakening) and therefore falls from grace and cannot return. It is a problematic situation for girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 That is what I tended to do as well. Ex- for LOTR I created a character who was the granddaughter of Gandalf. She could do magic, ride as well as the men of Rohan, and would fly in aback an eagle to battle. She was pretty cool! :p Did you ever read The Silmarillion? You might be interested. ;) I don't know if modern children would have the same fascination with plot that I did as a child. I was far from normal, I guess.. It never bothered me to switch MY gender from male to female whenever I needed to shift perspective. I didn't need to change the character to do that. Which, I think is fine. I just also think it's fine for a little girl to want to switch the gender. I don't think it probably matters that much a large part of the time, at least it matters less than we think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I guess I had hang-ups as a child, because I had a strong sense of whether a character was male or female when I imagined them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The Problem With Susan by Neil Gaiman (for anyone interested, not a child friendly story) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I would think that historical context is also a factor in the gender of the heroines - throughout much of history, boys had access to (and responsibility for) a much wider and different type of freedom than women had, particularly as it relates to adventuring (pirates, sailors, explorers, etc.). To observe that many of the adventuring protagonists in children's literature were male doesn't diminish women / girls at all in my estimation. (And I completely agree with the up-thread observation that often girls will read "boy books," but boys are more reluctant to read "girl books." Again, not that it SHOULD be that way, but that it often is.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Right. That was my initial point. She gets interested in nylons, lipstick and invitations (sexual awakening) and therefore falls from grace and cannot return. It is a problematic situation for girls. Sorry, what I meant was that worldliness in general was drawing her away from Narnia. I suppose it could be sexual awakening, but that would not necessarily cause her to stop believing in Narnia. I agree it is problematic for girls if a sexual spin is put on it. Of course I don't know what Lewis intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Did you ever read The Silmarillion? You might be interested. ;) Which, I think is fine. I just also think it's fine for a little girl to want to switch the gender. I don't think it probably matters that much a large part of the time, at least it matters less than we think. I read it when I was a teen. I plan to reread it with Punk when he finish LOTR. Introducing the kids to and watching them fall in love with the books and characters I loved growing up has been one of THE most fun parts of parenting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I would think that historical context is also a factor in the gender of the heroines - throughout much of history, boys had access to (and responsibility for) a much wider and different type of freedom than women had, particularly as it relates to adventuring (pirates, sailors, explorers, etc.). To observe that many of the adventuring protagonists in children's literature were male doesn't diminish women / girls at all in my estimation. We're talking about The Hobbit. It takes place in a fantasy world. There is no historical context from the POV of a small child listening to it as an adventure story. (And I completely agree with the up-thread observation that often girls will read "boy books," but boys are more reluctant to read "girl books." Again, not that it SHOULD be that way, but that it often is.) I think this is changing. Sorry, what I meant was that worldliness in general was drawing her away from Narnia. I suppose it could be sexual awakening, but that would not necessarily cause her to stop believing in Narnia. I agree it is problematic for girls if a sexual spin is put on it. Of course I don't know what Lewis intended. Have you read any of the critical pieces on the topic? I can direct you to some good ones, if you wish. There is a lot of writing out there on the subject of adult femininity in the writings of Lewis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I suppose it could be sexual awakening, but that would not necessarily cause her to stop believing in Narnia. She only quit believing in Narnia when it quit believing in her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 We're talking about The Hobbit. It takes place in a fantasy world. There is no historical context from the POV of a small child listening to it as an adventure story. Sorry, I should have clarified; I was referring to the "31% of central characters are female" statistic cited in the article. (It doesn't bother me that one mom changed the gender pronouns at her child's insistence, but it also doesn't bother me that 31% of central characters in the specific books that research study looked at between 1990 and 2000 are female - it in no way diminishes the role of women & girls in society to me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Sorry, I should have clarified; I was referring to the "31% of central characters are female" statistic cited in the article. (It doesn't bother me that one mom changed the gender pronouns at her child's insistence, but it also doesn't bother me that 31% of central characters in the specific books that research study looked at between 1990 and 2000 are female - it in no way diminishes the role of women & girls in society to me.) I don't see anyone *claiming* that it diminishes the roles of women and girls and society? Am I missing something? What I see is that the author of the article would like this to change, would like to see better representation. *I* think a large part of the reason for this is that male authors *tend* to only write male central characters while female writers tend to do both. I think this is *particularly* true among sci-fi/fantasy writers. I can easily name 10 female sci-fi/fantasy female authors who write from both perspectives while I can only think of a couple of male sic-fi/fantasy authors who write both male and female central characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't see anyone *claiming* that it diminishes the roles of women and girls and society? Am I missing something? What I see is that the author of the article would like this to change, would like to see better representation. *I* think a large part of the reason for this is that male authors *tend* to only write male central characters while female writers tend to do both. I think this is *particularly* true among sci-fi/fantasy writers. I can easily name 10 female sci-fi/fantasy female authors who write from both perspectives while I can only think of a couple of male sic-fi/fantasy authors who write both male and female central characters. From The Very Hungry Caterpillar to the Cat in the Hat, Peter Rabbit to Babar, children's books are dominated by male central characters, new research has found, with the gender disparity sending children a message that "women and girls occupy a less important role in society than men or boys". from the study cited by the OP's link: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/06/gender-imbalance-children-s-literature (Note from skeptic: the study only addresses 6,000 children's books published between 1990 and 2000, so that number is not even addressing most of the well-loved classics like Hobbit, Little House, etc.) It just doesn't make me feel that women are less important when I consider that the Cat in the Hat is male, kwim? Your point about the gender of the author makes good sense, too; I'm guessing it's a number of factors combined, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 <snip> Have you read any of the critical pieces on the topic? I can direct you to some good ones, if you wish. There is a lot of writing out there on the subject of adult femininity in the writings of Lewis. It has been a long time since I've studied it. So, sure, if it's no trouble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 From The Very Hungry Caterpillar to the Cat in the Hat, Peter Rabbit to Babar, children's books are dominated by male central characters, new research has found, with the gender disparity sending children a message that "women and girls occupy a less important role in society than men or boys". I think this is a semantic issue. I don't think the fact that boys are more represented in literature *actually can diminish* the importance of the role of women and girls. I *do* think it sends a message that they are less important. Those aren't the same sort of statement at all to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 From The Very Hungry Caterpillar to the Cat in the Hat, Peter Rabbit to Babar, children's books are dominated by male central characters, new research has found, with the gender disparity sending children a message that "women and girls occupy a less important role in society than men or boys". from the study cited by the OP's link: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/06/gender-imbalance-children-s-literature (Note from skeptic: the study only addresses 6,000 children's books published between 1990 and 2000, so that number is not even addressing most of the well-loved classics like Hobbit, Little House, etc.) It just doesn't make me feel that women are less important when I consider that the Cat in the Hat is male, kwim? Your point about the gender of the author makes good sense, too; I'm guessing it's a number of factors combined, really. Actually it does include The Hobbit. The study wasn't over a ten year span of books but 100: Looking at almost 6,000 children's books published between 1900 and 2000 Eta: typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think this is a semantic issue. I don't think the fact that boys are more represented in literature *actually can diminish* the importance of the role of women and girls. I *do* think it sends a message that they are less important. Those aren't the same sort of statement at all to me. Out of curiosity, do you think the reverse is true, as well? That books with strong female characters send a message that men are less important to society? (I realize the difference between the "sum total" of literature* vs. 6-8 books in stack.) *though 6,000 books 1990-2000 does not a sum total make I sometimes don't "get" the gender wars, really; I hope my tone comes across as curious, chatty, inquiring how others think vs. crabby. I do think there are many venues in which women are not treated equally with men, but - The Very Hungry Caterpillar just doesn't strike me as a cause for all that woe. ETA: Oh, I see I mis-read the 1990 - 2000 - my mistake! So then it WOULD include lots of the historical books, I would think. (Books written during decades when women were not generally authors, at least in America, as well as historically-set books like Across Five Aprils, etc.) Editing AGAIN to add: Wait - only 1 Caldecott book ever has had a "standalone female character"? Really? (Does "standalone" mean something I don't understand - I'm thinking of several Caldecotts with strong / central female characters.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 It has been a long time since I've studied it. So, sure, if it's no trouble! http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/09/in-defense-of-susan-pevensie.html http://www.buzzfeed.com/mollymcardle/have-you-forgotten-the-deep-magic http://www.anamardoll.com/2013/05/narnia-loving-her-less.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.