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Do you still make your dyslexic kids work on memorizing addition/sub/multiplication?


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My ds finally has some of his addition facts memorized. He learned most of them through Addition the Fun Way. He can tell you the stories and such when working on the cards. However, this doesn't translate to math. It's the strangest thing. He reverts back to counting dots in his head or using fingers when he's actually doing his math. With multiplication, same thing only he uses a multiplication chart on the wall. Should I keep plugging away with the flash cards in hopes that some day they will stick or just give up and let him use charts, ect?

 

Thanks,

Sandy

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Yes. We practice add/sub/mult/div facts through 15, perfect squares, prime numbers, and a few other things so far.

 

Plus poetry, grammar rules, spelling rules, names, dates, etc.

 

DD knows her facts if asked to say the answer out load, or to flip through flash cards. But she's very slow (understandably so) on written speed drills (even though she knows the answers.)

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My ds finally has some of his addition facts memorized. He learned most of them through Addition the Fun Way. He can tell you the stories and such when working on the cards. However, this doesn't translate to math. It's the strangest thing. He reverts back to counting dots in his head or using fingers when he's actually doing his math. With multiplication, same thing only he uses a multiplication chart on the wall. Should I keep plugging away with the flash cards in hopes that some day they will stick or just give up and let him use charts, ect?

 

Thanks,

Sandy

If you are looking for an alternative to flash cards, maybe look at the book by Ronit Bird titled Overcoming Difficulties with Number.  

 

My DD mastered add/subtract facts to 20 in first grade.  Multiplication and division facts came late 5th grade.  Timed math sheets are out of the question due to his dysgraphia; however, he practices math facts using computer software and the 10-keypad.  He is a rising 9th grader and I have him practice multiplication facts least he forget them from disuse.

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I used charts as a way of helping my kids master their multiplication facts. The first time my oldest filled one in (up to 10 X 10), in around 4th grade or so, it took him 28 minutes. But then the next one was down to 10, and I gave him an award when he got it down to 5 minutes. We also did a variety of math games, a math shark, online drills, and so on. 

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I would try different approaches instead of flash cards, since that is obviously not working well.  Some great suggestions above.  We are still doing this, too, trying to find ways to help it all sink in.  But I have been moving us forward through the math materials while allowing them to use charts they create themselves.  If all we ever did was drill they would hate math so much I don't think forward momentum would be possible (nearly 14 year old will probably always struggle with math so I am trying to teach her ways to adapt and scaffold while we also still work on memorizing).  

 

FWIW, I have never been able to memorize my math facts.  I am in my 40's.  I got a degree, had a successful career in broadcast television, manage the finances for our home and my parents' family business.  It is irritating but not impossible to function without instant recall of those facts.  DH is dyslexic and dysgraphic and has never been able to memorize his math facts.  He is a brilliant engineer and very successful in his field.  It hasn't slowed him down much, either.

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Nope. But we use Rod and Staff and the repetition is massive and they learn them typically by the end of it. Multiplication we utilize a wall chart. None of my kids are strong with fact memorization and neither was I as a student. Nor am I nowm I have to use a chart for numbers multipled over 7 and I work daily with the kids hands on. I've come to grips with it. 

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I would (and did) keep practicing the facts until they are learned to the point of being able to be used in context.  Do you ever have him do mental math practice?  If he is able to deal with flash cards reasonably well, doing more complex arithmetic mentally will help him juggle things in his working memory while applying his fact knowledge, which sounds like what the problem is.  Another idea would be to use the RightStart games, which also force the kid to apply fact knowledge rather than just blurt it out.

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Thanks everyone! I think I will have him continue what he's doing. Onestep, the flash cards we use aren't the typical flash cards. They have the number characters on the front as a reminder of the story that goes along with the fact. They are easy for him but it's interesting to me that he doesn't use that knowledge during math. He reverts back to counting dots or using his fingers. He doesn't even try to think 3 plus 3 =6 as 3 bee plus 3 bee equals sick 6. It's strange how that just goes out of his mind.

 

Sandy

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Hugs.  Then starting over with Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers book and being very proactive and going slow, working daily to try and break bad habits (which is essentially part of what is happening here), etc. MIGHT net you more.  It has helped here.  That and the Dynamo math program.  It hasn't solved everything but it has helped quite a bit.  And play lots of math games that incorporate math patterns.  That is also helping here.

 

Check out this thread....

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/

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Thank you! I do have the book already. Don't know why I haven't really taken the time to go through it. We did a little of Dynamo math. I bought the 6 month program but didn't use it much. I guess I just felt like by the time he gets done with his reg math, he's already spent long enough in math for the day. He felt like Dynamo was too babyish. Maybe I should give it another look.

 

Sandy

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I understand.   :)  Both kids thought it was babyish, but they both really needed to go back to the very basics to clear up some of their issues and DD was honestly relieved to go back to doing math she could function pretty well in, even though it was basic.  Because of that I had less resistance than I might have.  Since the lessons were pretty short comparatively, it worked out for us.  But then I only had them doing Dynamo math and Ronit Bird.  I didn't have them doing another math program at all for several months.  I think they would have balked at doing a lot of other math then stick Dynamo and Ronit Bird on top of it.  

 

Since they were doing a lesson every day, sometimes Saturday, the lessons progressed pretty quickly and they could see they were building up to more advanced material.  Then, too, when we played math games they were able to visualize the math better fairly quickly and realized it really was helping.  That being said, DS stopped and switched to Math In Focus after level 3.  He is younger, but is less tolerant of "baby" material and was honestly less behind in math in many ways so I let him switch over.

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Yes, we did Addition the Fun Way and Memorize in Minutes Multiplication and we use a multiplication chart, but mostly ds has memorized the facts he needs just from use in more complex problems and just having to figure it out on his own. Ds has really weird ways of doing math to get around his dyslexia when he wants to, but it works for him so we go with it.

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I should add he will be 10 this month and in 4th grade. We are using TT4 and will move into TT5 partway into the school year. He gets the math concepts, it's just the fact memorization.

 

Yes, we continued working on math fact drills until my son mastered them.. which was around 7th grade.  Using a great computer-based practice program can help a lot too.. You might want to check out Reflex Math as an option.  20-30 minutes of practice every night before bed can help with retention because your son's brain will continue processing the facts during the early stages of sleep.

 

Study data shows two things:

 

1) Using a dual approach with direct instruction and a drill program will help with retention.

 

2) Whatever you study right before bed will "stick" better than anything learned during the day.

 

That said, your neuropsychologist had us use a specific process for drilling our son in his math facts.. I've documented the process we used on this webpage: http://learningabledkids.com/home_school_q_and_a/short_term_memory_memorization.htm. It took about two years of DAILY drilling using this method before our son could recall the facts given a bit of thinking time.    We started with just one set of math facts (2's), then added on one set of facts when he reached a point that he could go through all of the facts correctly the first time through.  Even after you have all of the facts in a BIG pile, your son should be able to go through all of the facts in 5-10 minutes given he has mastered each set before he next set was added. 

 

Hope that helps! ;-)

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My son has done very well this summer with Reflex Math.  Better than I had ever hoped.  

 

I had taken some time off b/c he was SO frustrated and he does well with a chart and list of skip counting.  

 

Now I am letting him take a break from math facts again, but he has learned, um, almost all of them.  

 

He says there are only really hard ones left, and he has done so well, he wants a break, and I think he has got a good point.  

 

There are two things I have seen about Reflex Math.  First, it is not stressful for him when he doesn't know the answer.  Second, in the Coach Penny's practice, it will keep going back to the same problem.  Sometimes he will get frustrated, hit the space bar (to skip), then it comes up again, and he has remembered.  Or, it will give the answer after 2-3 times (depending on if it is a new fact or not, I think) and then ask the question.  He hates when he can't remember but he knows he knows it, being told the answer.  But he also hates spending too much time this way, when he knows it but can't remember it.  Somehow Reflex math is very good for him this way.  It is low stress to him.  Two, he does kind-of like it.  It is still math facts -- but the most pleasant way he has ever done them.  

 

He also has a history of counting on his fingers for math facts he "knows."  It takes him a lot of practice to get to where he can think of them.  In the past it has been hard for me to go through very many facts with him without it starting to take way too long, as he is slow to think of them, and will be getting frustrated and at the end of his good-paying-attention time.  But with Reflex Math he goes through a huge number of facts.  It is amazing to me how many math facts he actually does.  Also I can see now he needs to spend a lot of time going back to one math fact.... but it would be hard for me to this with him without him getting into a feeling of "why does she keep showing me this one, am I stupid" (not exactly that -- but he gets frustrated and is thinking more about "why do I have to keep doing this one" than just thinking of his math facts).  

 

He has made a lot of progress, though, and can answer a lot of multiplication and division facts quickly and with no stress.  He is 9, and honestly, got this way with about 2 months of daily practice.  I think it is partly his age, partly a window of having a good attitude and me making it a top-two priority for the summer with very little else expected of him (for this summer -- it has been math facts and daily reading -- nothing else).  

 

For background with him, he got very frustrated with timed math facts at school in 2nd grade.  I got him out of them by talking to his teacher (he cried at home one night, and when I told his teacher she was like -- "I had no idea" -- and he went in the hall and did his orally with no time limit).  But it has taken all this time, about two years, for him to get over that.  

 

So I am a huge fan of Reflex Math, but I think it is also a case of "the right thing at the right time."  B/c my son is very familiar with multiplication and had been using skip counting (he did not have them memorized, but he would say the skip counting as he found his answer) for about a year.  But I think it would have also been something where it would not have worked too soon after his period of great frustration and stress associated with math facts.  

 

It is also hard for him to memorize anything that is a rote fact.  It was like this for learning letters, letter sounds, counting (just counting to 20 etc), all of the phonics sounds, sight words, etc, etc, and he was needing to work on that up until about a year ago, too.  But his confidence is way up since he is reading well, too, and this has been the only thing for him to work on this summer. 

 

(We are just back from a trip, and he wanted a break before the trip and during the trip -- I am not sure if I will require him to start again.... I think it will depend on how he is retaining.... with him, when he can answer easily, he doesn't seem to lose things.  When he is not able to answer easily, he is prone to losing things.  He was answering very easily and I am optimistic he will remember.)  

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I tried Reflex math last year with him. He liked it at first but we never could get past just the first 2 games. Were we doing something wrong? We only had 2 games unlocked the entire time. I think more games would have made it more interesting. Maybe I need to look at it again.

 

Thanks,

Sandy

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It tells you there is a certain number of days until the next game is unlocked.  

 

My son does not like the sundae game and he was super-disappointed when he picked that one to unlock, and didn't like it at all.  He likes Quick Slither and the one that seems kind-of like tetris.  The sundae game is not his thing.  

 

But it is like -- it is definitely disappointing to unlock a game and not like it, and see "5 days" until the next game can be unlocked.  

 

I think this is part of why I think "it was the right thing at the right time" with my son.  He DOES quite like quick slither and the one that seems like tetris (fizz heads).  I think it is just good luck that he likes these games and picked them to unlock before alien sundae, which he doesn't like.  He does like buying things with his coins, and was into saving up for a treehouse.  I think -- it can be so hit or miss, b/c another kid might care less about buying a mohawk haircut for his/her avatar, or saving to buy a tree house, but my son did really like those two things.  

 

But anyway -- there is a time when (iirc) you have passed Coach Penny and there is a little sign that says "this many days until you can unlock a new game" and then the days goes down every time you get a green light.  

 

I have tried many things that worked great with other kids, that were a huge bomb here, and while I am so pleased with how Reflex has gone here, really a good fit, I am sorry when it is bombing elsewhere.  I think just remember it is just not a good fit, it is nothing the child is doing wrong.  Or, it may not be the right time, or it may be too much all at once, or too stressful.  Or maybe the games are just not cool to the kid, and they don't care about getting coins to buy a mowhawk and a bee hive and a tree house.  I think it is kind-of dumb myself, it was a huge relief to me that my son did care about that and find motivation that way, but I couldn't fault him if he thought the avatars and stuff were stupid.  It also seemed like it took him a long time to save up coins to buy things, I could see it taking too long for him if he was not really into it.  

 

I am just happy it was helpful here, but I can also see why it would not be something that would work for everyone.  

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It tells you there is a certain number of days until the next game is unlocked.  

 

My son does not like the sundae game and he was super-disappointed when he picked that one to unlock, and didn't like it at all.  He likes Quick Slither and the one that seems kind-of like tetris.  The sundae game is not his thing.  

 

But it is like -- it is definitely disappointing to unlock a game and not like it, and see "5 days" until the next game can be unlocked.  

 

I think this is part of why I think "it was the right thing at the right time" with my son.  He DOES quite like quick slither and the one that seems like tetris (fizz heads).  I think it is just good luck that he likes these games and picked them to unlock before alien sundae, which he doesn't like.  He does like buying things with his coins, and was into saving up for a treehouse.  I think -- it can be so hit or miss, b/c another kid might care less about buying a mohawk haircut for his/her avatar, or saving to buy a tree house, but my son did really like those two things.  

 

But anyway -- there is a time when (iirc) you have passed Coach Penny and there is a little sign that says "this many days until you can unlock a new game" and then the days goes down every time you get a green light.  

 

I have tried many things that worked great with other kids, that were a huge bomb here, and while I am so pleased with how Reflex has gone here, really a good fit, I am sorry when it is bombing elsewhere.  I think just remember it is just not a good fit, it is nothing the child is doing wrong.  Or, it may not be the right time, or it may be too much all at once, or too stressful.  Or maybe the games are just not cool to the kid, and they don't care about getting coins to buy a mowhawk and a bee hive and a tree house.  I think it is kind-of dumb myself, it was a huge relief to me that my son did care about that and find motivation that way, but I couldn't fault him if he thought the avatars and stuff were stupid.  It also seemed like it took him a long time to save up coins to buy things, I could see it taking too long for him if he was not really into it.  

 

I am just happy it was helpful here, but I can also see why it would not be something that would work for everyone.  

 

I also let him listen to music while he did it, and he could earn "watch Minecraft videos on youtube" time, and I would type for him some.  So he did have more rewards than just what was part of the game, and if he didn't do Reflex Math, he was going to do some other form of math practice.  He did prefer it to doing flashcards with me, and he cannot stand doing worksheets for math facts either, and those were other options I had for him.  But if he liked flashcards better then it would have been fine with me.  

 

But to the original question -- I think it is a good goal to learn math facts.  But I don't think it is always the right time to work on them.  I was okay with not working on them for a while when it was such an issue and also I felt there were more important goals.  But then it got to be a top goal I guess.  

 

What happened too -- I never thought it caused a problem for him to use his chart and his skip counting, until he had a unit last year (he is in public school) that was kind-of about reducing fractions.  It would have 8/24 and to get what was going on, you needed to be able to look at 8/24 and realize that "24 divided by 8 equals 3."  He was lost on what was going on and I thought that was why -- that is why I made it a priority.  If he had kept on doing fine with using his charts and skip counting book, I don't think it would have been needed.  Or ----- if he was home and I could do that unit a different way.  But as it is -- he is in public school, and I felt like when they covered it again next year, they were going to cover it in this format, expecting kids to look and just know "the fraction 24/8 is equal to 3" to follow along with what they were talking about.  Or 8/24 is the same as 1/3.  I felt like he was going to be left behind and lost in math next year b/c of the teachers going through as if kids did know these things.  

 

But I also think -- if teachers would pause, or if the worksheets or whatever were designed, in a way to just add in "and that is 3 or 1/3" then it would not be hindrance in the same way.  

 

But if it wasn't going well for him to learn them, I would be trying to get his teacher next year to realize that he could follow along if she would just give an extra moment or go ahead and make it clear/explicit what the fraction would be, instead of assuming that kids would instantly fill that blank in on their own.  I do not think it is necessary to skip over that step, and I have a hard time believing he is the only kid in his class who would be helped by that scenario.  

 

But at the end of the day I am an afterschooler and will try to help him fit in with what is happening at public school -- that is just what the situation here is at present.  

 

I do think that if I had a different situation -- he could do fine with a chart and skip counting.  When I went over his math at home and filled in some blanks for him -- he did do fine.  But it is better here if he can understand at school with the teacher assuming kids know their math facts as she gives explanations.  But at home -- I think it would not be the same situation.  I don't think it is that difficult for a parent to fill in the blanks in an explanation where a child is confused, or give a little time for the use of a chart.  But at school if the time is not given -- he will fall behind in the explanation or lose his place, if that is how the teacher is going to do things.  

 
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I can say, too, that my son has gotten at least 75th percentile on MAP testing without knowing his math facts, through 3rd grade, and been a fine math student outside of speed of computation.  He has done fine with setting up word problems, and outside of just math facts, he is faster at other parts of math so that it makes up for being slower with computation.  

 

But I have felt like -- next year it would get harder to stay that way, b/c it does seem that things are designed around kids knowing their math facts at his school, when they get to fractions.  It may not be the case, but it seemed that way enough for me to make the effort.  

 

But at home -- I do not think it would need to be that way.  I think if I took it into account he could do fine.  

 

Anyway -- just some context/background.  

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We loved the multiplication stories found on multiplication.com.  They really worked for my dyslexic DS.  I also kept a multiplication chart up on the wall for him to look at when he needed to.  I asked him recently (he is finishing up algebra) if he still used the stories to recall his multiplication facts, and he said, "not really, but once in a while I do."  I know that he never looks at the chart anymore as it's no longer near where he does his work.  The main thing is that I did not wait for him to have facts memorized before moving on in math, and it hasn't been an issue for him.  I remember asking this same question years ago on a homeschooling forum, and the advice I received from BTDT moms was to move on.  I'm really glad we did.  Math is an area where DS is exceling in and can feel good about himself in (as opposed to spelling...).

 

For addition/subtraction facts, we played a lot of games.  I highly recommend Peggy Kaye books - Games for Math and Games for Learning.  She has great ideas for helping children visualize math concepts in fun ways.  If your son is having trouble translating the facts he has memorized to actual quantities, her games will help.  One of my favorite games was for learning quantities that add to ten (so helpful to know).  You have ten paperclips and take turns tossing them into a container placed several feet away.  Then you record how many went in, and how many didn't.  Repeat a zillion times.  It's a fun competition, and the kid eventually realizes that if he knows how many went in, he doesn't have to count how many didn't.  Brilliant :)

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