dauphin Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 XP here and K-8 in case there are some of you who don't look there. And, this is pertaining to a logic/dialectic age student.... So we've decided to do American History this next year (6th grade) for several reasons. Forgive me if you've heard this before, I keep coming up with more questions as my thinking evolves :). We started homeschooling about a year and a half ago, unexpectedly, so I still feel like I'm getting my bearings :), but I -do- know I'm drawn to Classical ed. There are a group of moms in my area that are doing the 4-year cycle together, including a mentor of sorts. Unfortunately, next year they are going to do Middle Ages/Ren/Ref, which DD and I have, effectively, done for the last 2 years (the private Classical school we left and Classical Conversations Cycles 1 and 2), so neither of us could stand a 3rd year in that time period. So that was my initial reason for switching to Am. Hist - to detour from the 4-year cycle and allow these local friends to "catch up" to us. Another reason is that it seems like most of DD's public and private school friends all did Am Hist last year and then went to DC so she feels like she missed out on that (and I think we can swing it - particularly since a local co-op is organizing a trip :) ). So why TOG? I've looked at a lot of the curricula that leans classically, and most of them do Am Hist over 2 years -anyway- so I'm going to have to condense no matter what. Of the ones that offer it in one year, I've eliminated most because of the following issues: concerns about accuracy/excessive use of historical fiction), too textbook-y (I want us to lean more heavily towards living books/classic literature), lack of an overview/theme/integrating vision (it's more of a booklist - but what are you trying to SAY? What point are you making? What is the thread that runs through this, for you? vs. a disjointed series of chronologically ordered books). I really want some guidance on leading discussions (both for history and literature, although literature isn't necessary - I have a sort-of plan for that), particularly at the dialectic level. A little hand-holding (and exemplars in front of me!) on asking thought questions, socratic discussion questions, and the level of thinking DD should be reasonably expected to have to this kind of reading (and good quality book lists are a HUGE plus). The response of "you should just pick some books and go through them and don't just have someone else do all the thinking for you" stresses me OUT. I'm STEM-y and so is my DD. And I'm still on a steep learning curve about this homeschooling thing (I never planned on homeschooling and started unexpectedly (as in, "okay then, well, we won't be back next week")). OH!!! And, I was intending to use Hakim's History of US as a spine, more or less, and TOG uses it (at the UG level, I think, which I think DD is half in (w/ half in dialectic). Oh, Biblioplan is a possibility but I really would like to see a copy IN HAND (not just the samples online although I'll admit they're extensive) So...if I"m condensing across, um, 3 year plans (eek!), getting the materials cheaper would be...wise. So is there any reason you would advise against going with the Classic edition (isn't that the oldest one?). In case it makes a difference with regard to what you'd recommend I purchase, I don't have any other students I"m homeschooling although I would consider pulling the 6 year old home in the next few years but we are thrilled with Montessori at the moment.... TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Couple thoughts... Regarding Classic - I haven't used Classic, but if I remember correctly, one of the complaints against Classic was that the information needed for discussions at the dialectic level wasn't always contained in the dialectic reading material, which was obviously frustrating. Maybe a Classic user can clarify if that's the case or not (or you might try searching and see if you can find old threads comparing classic to re-design.) Regarding using TOG - The following year when you join back up with your group on the 4-year cycle, what curriculum will you be using? Will you use TOG? If you won't use it, then I wouldn't spend that much money just to pull out the American units. If you will use it, I wouldn't use it ahead of the group, you'll just repeat info. Plus, I would think that pulling out the American weeks would be hard to do as some weeks cover world and American, also I think you'll have way more than you can cover in a year, and I think it would feel disjointed. Jmho. I haven't used History of US, but if you want that, maybe consider other guides/schedules/plans for using it? Seems like Beautiful Feet maybe uses it some. You mentioned Biblioplan. I think I've seen Hewitt mentioned as one that has a History of US guide or schedule. Also, you might find some other resource that facilitates some of your discussion - something that highlights varying viewpoints of different issues in American History (can't think of the specific resources at the moment, but they're out there.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauphin Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Thank you for the feedback and things to think about. It helps me process and move forward! Regarding Classic, that is problematic but not a deal-breaker. I am less concerned about "accountability" questions and more about discussion starter-type questions. So I'm happy to just pick and choose those questions that are relevant to what we DID read, and not worry about box-checking on the rest. They/We won't really be using a "curriculum" per se, the group will be using TWTM plus extra readings (kind of doing it TWTM way). I meant to emphasize this in my post above, but I forgot: my plan to avoid "repeating" content: when covering Am Hist this coming year, I would skip or minimally cover those things that are going to be covered from a World History perspective (e.g., Exploration, World Wars) or, as you put it, skip those weeks that cover both World and American subjects together. And then when we come back and do the following years, skip or minimally cover the American History items (e.g., skip whatever the American spine is for that year, as well as all the American-based readings). I agree that disjointed is a risk, but it can't be much worse than "cobbling something together," could it? At least TOG ties everything in to their "tapestry of grace" that is woven throughout the stretch of history.... that is worth a lot to me. I have a copy of Hewitt and I'm not impressed, at least for my purposes. It's basically a reading schedule plus tests. They schedule every.page of the Hakim books, in order. There are no supplemental readings. They have "projects" and "research papers" to assign, but none of them are actually keyed to the readings, it's more like a list of general projects (e.g., design a newspaper front page, act out a historical scene, keep a journal as if you lived in another time) that are intended to be applicable to any period of history. The research reports are just assigned to be on "a topic of interest." The test questions look more school-y, more like accountability questions. The essay questions (intended as bonus questions) look like great discussion starters, I'd probably use them for that (or use them as open-book assignments followed up by discussion), but there is only like one per Hakim book (so about one per month). BF's Early American Intermediate is for grades 4-6 and look kind of, um, young for DD. There's an Early American plus World for 7-9, but Modern (plus World) isn't offered except for 9-12. And even at the 7-9 level, I'm disappointed with the comprehension-type questions (In Carry On, Mr. Bowditch, "What does the term "crowd sail' mean?"), and all the ancillary "tasks" like "draw a picture of William of Orange and write out Matthew 10:39 below the picture" or "draw a cover page for the section on ___" or "draw a map and label __." We tried a different BF (History of the Horse) and it frustrated DD and I, I think because we are more "git 'r' done" kind of people. IF you remember the "highlights of varying viewpoints of different issues in American History" please come back and post. But from what I can tell, no one else besides TOG (and maybe Biblioplan) are giving specific readings (of a spine PLUS a schedule of linked living books) and then keying discussions -at multiple levels, especially dialectic!- to those readings specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Bummer about Hewitt and BF. Here's the book I was remembering: http://www.amazon.com/Opposing-Viewpoints-American-History-Reconstruction/dp/1565103475/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1405870316&sr=8-3&keywords=viewpoints+in+American+history&dpPl=1 Opposing Viewpoints in American History. There are two volumes. There are probably similar books. Also, I think Critical Thinking Company has a US History course or supplement where you use excerpts from primary sources to take sides on various issues. In your shoes, I might try to use something like that for special projects or research, but just read History of US and let discussions happen naturally. But, I understand that's not the kind of plan you are looking for. I tried TOG a couple times - loved the idea of it, but didn't love the implementation, so for *me* the work it would take to pull out the US and the cost of the multilpe years would not be worth it. In your case, I would print out one of the three week samples from TOG (no matter what time period) and really play with it, plan it, implement it and see if you like it. Then, I would look at the weekly titles for the time period you're considering (End of Year 2 through Year 4) and get an idea of which weeks you would use and which ones you would skip. Lastly, I would try to get my hands on a Classic year plan to see if it still meets your expectations. Not that you haven't thought of all that on your own! Sorry, not much help, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I love TOG and plan to continue using it, (we do 4 classes in it) but in your case I think you need to realize that American History starts towards the end of TOG Y2 and continues through Y4. It would be quite an expense to purchase all three year plans just for American History IMHO. As an alternative, you could just use Joy Hakim's History of US as a spine or the condensed version of History of US and incorporate some of the additional TOG books listed for history on Bookshelf Central as in-depth reading. As far as discussion questions go, you mentioned that your DD is split between UG & D. In that case, I'm not sure I would fully engage in the Socratic discussions this next year. You could do what DD and I did last year. Read the books (History of US) together and just discuss together some interesting tidbits you read. We had some fabulous philosophical discussions about the interactions between Native Americans and the colonists, ways to avoid the conflicts, or how they could have been handled differently, and so on. We also talked about the founding fathers and how the political parties were originally formed compared to how different they are today. The sky's the limit, and we didn't need a script. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauphin Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Bummer about Hewitt and BF. Here's the book I was remembering: http://www.amazon.com/Opposing-Viewpoints-American-History-Reconstruction/dp/1565103475/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1405870316&sr=8-3&keywords=viewpoints+in+American+history&dpPl=1 Opposing Viewpoints in American History. There are two volumes. There are probably similar books. Also, I think Critical Thinking Company has a US History course or supplement where you use excerpts from primary sources to take sides on various issues. In your shoes, I might try to use something like that for special projects or research, but just read History of US and let discussions happen naturally. But, I understand that's not the kind of plan you are looking for. I tried TOG a couple times - loved the idea of it, but didn't love the implementation, so for *me* the work it would take to pull out the US and the cost of the multilpe years would not be worth it. In your case, I would print out one of the three week samples from TOG (no matter what time period) and really play with it, plan it, implement it and see if you like it. Then, I would look at the weekly titles for the time period you're considering (End of Year 2 through Year 4) and get an idea of which weeks you would use and which ones you would skip. Lastly, I would try to get my hands on a Classic year plan to see if it still meets your expectations. Not that you haven't thought of all that on your own! Sorry, not much help, lol! Lol. It all helps. Thanks for the book rec, I'll look at it. I have a copy of the Critical thinking Co guide and it's more of an exercise in critical thinking/analysis than a history guide...I definitely should try the free sample, I've been fighting with the lock lizard program (updated my home computer to a different platform), and just got it resolved I think. Are the titles listed by week on Bookshelf Central or is there some other place to find that without buying the curriculum? I love TOG and plan to continue using it, (we do 4 classes in it) but in your case I think you need to realize that American History starts towards the end of TOG Y2 and continues through Y4. It would be quite an expense to purchase all three year plans just for American History IMHO. As an alternative, you could just use Joy Hakim's History of US as a spine or the condensed version of History of US and incorporate some of the additional TOG books listed for history on Bookshelf Central as in-depth reading. As far as discussion questions go, you mentioned that your DD is split between UG & D. In that case, I'm not sure I would fully engage in the Socratic discussions this next year. You could do what DD and I did last year. Read the books (History of US) together and just discuss together some interesting tidbits you read. We had some fabulous philosophical discussions about the interactions between Native Americans and the colonists, ways to avoid the conflicts, or how they could have been handled differently, and so on. We also talked about the founding fathers and how the political parties were originally formed compared to how different they are today. The sky's the limit, and we didn't need a script. About the cost, I consider the initial handholding worth it, kinda think of it in terms of teacher training? DH's comment is that it's still far cheaper than another year at that private school would have been ;) but I just stumbled across a copy of the syllabus for Teaching the Classics, perhaps that would be a somewhat less expensive route? But not by much. I think the appeal of TOG is perhaps driven by the extent to which I am a parts-to-whole learner? Give me EXAMPLES and then tie it all together, KWIM? Let me see it in black and white before you tell me how to do it? Does that make sense? About the level, that's just it - I don't really know what level she's at and I have tended to underestimate her in my desire to not miss anything or leave anything off (and burned her out because I wasn't familiar enough with methodology or content to scale it up myself so we trudged through work that didn't challenge her enough. And TBH the entire reason we ended up having to homeschool was that we needed the flexibility to keep her challenged. ). So anyway when I wrote that I was assuming we should -start- with upper UG plus some D and if the UG comes easy then the plan to scale up is right in front of me. When I spoke of Socratic discussions, I think I was thinking more in terms of Socratic questioning in general (which I figured was similar terminology to Dialectic discussion but my lack of familiarity with the material may be showing here...I don't need a script (or answers to the questions) but I'd really like the prompts (and the overviews in the guide that tie things all together across the whole scope of history (the tapestry of grace they speak of), because big picture isn't my strength (see above re: parts to whole thinker). Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate the opportunity to process my thoughts. No one around here would get it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/year2/ When you click on a year plan on the TOG site, scroll down until you see Scope and Sequence. Then you'll see a link to Week-plan Titles. Here's the link to the list for year 2: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/year2/weekplantitles.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 About the cost, I consider the initial handholding worth it, kinda think of it in terms of teacher training? DH's comment is that it's still far cheaper than another year at that private school would have been ;) but I just stumbled across a copy of the syllabus for Teaching the Classics, perhaps that would be a somewhat less expensive route? But not by much. I think the appeal of TOG is perhaps driven by the extent to which I am a parts-to-whole learner? Give me EXAMPLES and then tie it all together, KWIM? Let me see it in black and white before you tell me how to do it? Does that make sense? About the level, that's just it - I don't really know what level she's at and I have tended to underestimate her in my desire to not miss anything or leave anything off (and burned her out because I wasn't familiar enough with methodology or content to scale it up myself so we trudged through work that didn't challenge her enough. And TBH the entire reason we ended up having to homeschool was that we needed the flexibility to keep her challenged. ). So anyway when I wrote that I was assuming we should -start- with upper UG plus some D and if the UG comes easy then the plan to scale up is right in front of me. When I spoke of Socratic discussions, I think I was thinking more in terms of Socratic questioning in general (which I figured was similar terminology to Dialectic discussion but my lack of familiarity with the material may be showing here...I don't need a script (or answers to the questions) but I'd really like the prompts (and the overviews in the guide that tie things all together across the whole scope of history (the tapestry of grace they speak of), because big picture isn't my strength (see above re: parts to whole thinker). Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate the opportunity to process my thoughts. No one around here would get it! If you're not concerned about the cost, then I'd say go for it. I think TOG is a fabulous program and my DD has requested that we continue with it through high school. Last year was our best year yet after discovering TOG. Just don't get overwhelmed with all the choices you have. Remember that the program is a buffet and choose only what you want to concentrate on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyWImom Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 What about VP? If you got the history cards & memory cd's and used their reading recommendations on the backs of the cards. You could also add in some of their literature. I also tentatively vote for Biblioplan. I've been really looking at it too, and like you wish I had it in hand to see more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauphin Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 I like VP a lot. DD evidently did too, she memorized the entire timeline/history cards in 8 days. What?!?!?! Anyway, I felt like the TG's didn't really ask "thought" questions, they were more accountability/comprehension. I also didn't see much in the way of discussion lead-ins, and those two things are things I REALLLLLY want help with. BIblioplan seems great for the overarching framework I was saying I wanted. But, the more time I have spent looking at TOG, the more I think it fits with what I feel like I -need-. I don't think I'll have a problem treating it as a "buffet" and pulling out only the Am. Hist stuff that I want/need. As of right now, I'm planning to stick my toes in by getting just one unit (Y2 U3) in DE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professormom Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I laugh because you sounds like me... I too would buy maybe a little extra to get exactly what I want (and tend to compare costs to what we would be paying for private school.) We use ToG and the reason I love it is for the discussion. The books are good, some better than others and having the teacher notes is awesome. Could I put this together myself, sure. But to me, it is worth the $ to have it put together. I put my time, then, into the interaction with the kids. Starting AmHistory in Y2U3, it is set up with 2 tracks, so to speak. American running alongside world, so with tweaking, you could easily pull American out of it. You will have to buy Y2U3 through the end of Y4, but I could see that. Being worth it for your goals and if you don't mind spending a little more to get it. I have the current, not Classic, ToG, and the discussion prompts and paragraphs of teachers notes really allow me to do that Socratic questioning that I think is important. We built up to full discussions. In the student pages, they also include questions that the kids need to answer (on paper or at least be able to articulate in their minds) before discussion time. Discussion time is not just regurgitating info, but helps you lead the child from point to point. It is amazing what they put together:-) Good luck deciding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauphin Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 I laugh because you sounds like me... I too would buy maybe a little extra to get exactly what I want (and tend to compare costs to what we would be paying for private school.) We use ToG and the reason I love it is for the discussion. The books are good, some better than others and having the teacher notes is awesome. Could I put this together myself, sure. But to me, it is worth the $ to have it put together. I put my time, then, into the interaction with the kids. ...the discussion prompts and paragraphs of teachers notes really allow me to do that Socratic questioning that I think is important.... Discussion time is not just regurgitating info, but helps you lead the child from point to point. Exactly. I could set aside a few years to master some of this skill set AND content area and that would lend itself to these types of discussions, but we don't want to wait - what do I DO NOW?? ;) So having this type of scaffolding, NOW, is priceless. Starting AmHistory in Y2U3, it is set up with 2 tracks, so to speak. American running alongside world, so with tweaking, you could easily pull American out of it. You will have to buy Y2U3 through the end of Y4, but I could see that. Being worth it for your goals and if you don't mind spending a little more to get it. Good luck deciding! In the end, I think I am going to start with Y2U3 - we just got started this week, as a matter of fact. It wasn't until I really started digging into the materials that I began to see the benefits of the integration of world and American timelines (e.g., worldview influencing the colonies as well as European upheavals, etc.), and so I've kind of backed off of the DO IT ALL RITENAO philosophy. DH also reminded me that nothing is ever certain (e.g., the mentor could move. Or we could...), and so not to hinge everything on that. Also, as I have delved deeper into the TOG teacher materials, I am definitely excited about the potential within it for the upper grades, so I feel like it's even a possibility that we could stick with it through rhetoric. EXCEPT for the lack of group discussions with peers over common content. We'll have to figure out a solution to that. An in-person co-op/discussion group would be preferred, but I'm going to look into the virtual co-ops and the official TOG classes. Although I'm wondering if being "off-cycle" (beginning the school year with Unit 3 instead of 1) is going to eventually cause a problem with that... Well, anyway, if you've been following along, the latest update is that I love TOG, so far, and don't know if I'm going to try and compact any more... I am very thankful for their full free 3-week sample; it conveniently overlapped with where I was thinking of starting (Y2U3), so I haven't even had to purchase it yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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