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Third year homeschooling. Sixth grader. Still struggling to find right fit in math.


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Hi! As a bit of background, my daughter is a natural mathematician, the kind who intuits the right answer pretty much all the time. She was working a couple years ahead in math at school before she came home. Her first year home we tried to continue the school curriculum (Visual Math from the Math Learning Center) at home, but found it really relied on multiple students using different strategies to build a thorough understanding of concepts. We gave up on that around April that year and basically de-schooled math through the summer.

 

Even though she's great in math, she always lacked any confidence in it, so last year she started Life of Fred. I handed her LoF Apples that I had out of the library to use for her six year old sister. She loved it even though it was way too easy, and suddenly the thing that was supposed to fill time while I found a good fit for her, became her math for fifth grade. She went through fifteen LoF books, all the way through LoF Decimals and Percents last school year.

 

She's now confident, excited about math, and ready to fly at something this fall. Problem is, I don't know what to use next. I'd love something that will challenge her, but not break her newly gained confidence. She seems to prefer curricula that are written to the student over one I would present, but maybe an online class could work for her too. I am confident that she has basic math down now including fractions, decimals and percents, since she had a very thorough review of everything last year with all the LoF. I'm thinking she could start pre-algebra, but don't know if I'm missing something in between. I'd love any ideas on where to go from here.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice!

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My dd is going to try AOPS pre-algebra this fall. It is written to the student in a very conversational manner. However, it looks to be very in-depth and I imagine she'll be needing my help as she goes.

 

I also have the 1985 Dolciani Pre-Algebra: An Accelerated Course textbook, which was recommended here. It is also written to the student and seems very straightforward, but not as dry as something like Saxon. If AOPS proves to be too much for her, we will probably switch to this.

 

Both of these books start with a review of concepts like decimals, percents, ratios, exponents, etc. and then start introducing algebra concepts.

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Thank you! I've had several people who know her recommend AOPS so that might be a great thing to at least try for her. I hadn't heard of the Dolciani Pre-Algebra, but I will go check the Homeschool consignment store here to see if anyone has one for sale. Thanks again!! 

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We have tried a few and really like Teaching Textbooks.  The book and the disks are written directly to the student.  It is a spiral approach so she won't forget things she has recently learned.  It feels like a very supportive program as the kids work through it.  Really great because they can pop the disk in and do the problems on their own.  If they are stuck they can have the answer explained to them, step-by-step.  Each lesson starts with a lecture where the new skill is explained and visually shown.  If they get it wrong they find out immediately and can either retry or have it explained.  There are placement tests online so you can ensure the right fit.  Usually they run one grade below... so for example.... my 6th graders just completed Math 7 this past year.  I know there is a lot of talk about it being an "easy" program, but I think that is because it is a continual spiral approach- which for my kids works as positive support. We recently started schooling year round, so I assume that we will finish the entire TT series early and can continue through high school with some more challenging classes.  http://www.teachingtextbooks.com/v/vspfiles/tt/PreAlgebra.htm

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We're going to do Teaching Textbooks plus Jousting Armadillos next year.  I really like the inquiry based stuff in JA but it is supposed to be a little less intense than AOPS, and plan on doing it with my daughter (it is designed to be group work in places, so we'll be a group...) 

 

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We've used TabletClass Pre-A which our son really liked.  It prepared him well for AoPS Intro to Algebra which he just finished this year.  We supplemented TabletClass with some AoPS free videos and sample chapter work.  It was just enough to wet his appetite for more.  Though for him AoPS Pre-A would have been too much as a spine program at that stage moving from concrete operations to abstract algebraic reasoning.  It's different for every child.  So make sure to investigate each option in light of your child's unique needs and skills.  The key is finding that just right challenge to motivate without breaking her spirit.

 

On a spectrum of easiest to the most challenging AoPS is the most difficult.  It is largely based on competition style math problems which really stretch the brain and can sometimes take over an hour to solve a single problem.  Most who use it agree that it is not for the majority of students.  It also uses what is known as the 'Discovery Approach' which takes some getting used to and not every child likes.  Teaching Texbooks by contrast is the other end of the spectrum known for being the easiest and good for struggling students.  It can sometimes be a grade level behind.  And there are a lot of programs in between. That is the general consensus.  Derek Owens is another solid Pre-Algebra program which follows a standard S&S similar to Dolciani. 

 

The other thing you'll notice is some families combining programs like an easier one as the spine, then supplementing with more challenging word problems, etc...  There are many ways to add rigor.  But with something like AoPS its hard to ratchet it back unless it is not used as the spine.

 

Here is an interesting read if you haven't seen it already: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/342798-pre-algebra-fence-straddlers-master-thread/

 

Many of us have several Pre-A resources on hand which is not a bad thing when going through this stage.

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I think for a gifted and intuitive mathematician I'd at least try AOPS, assuming she passes the pre-algebra readiness test. The first 9 pages of chapter 1 are available as an excerpt on their website, so I'd have her read through it and get her opinion. AOPS is also $54 for the text and solutions manual, so it won't be like trying something out that costs $200.

 

Another option you might consider is the online elements of mathematics curriculum, available at www.elementsofmathematics.com (the aptitude test is free), and also designed for gifted young mathematicians. It is somewhat pricier than AOPS, but there are posters here who have used it and recommend it highly.

 

Another option could be to just continue moving through the Life of Fred sequence, if she is learning well from it. However, you should be aware that some of the Economics content in pre-algebra 2 is a bit on the kooky side, so I would recommend pre-reading.

 

I'd recommend at least attempting one the first two, just because I think one of the biggest issues that talented young mathematicians have is not running into content which genuinely challenges them to think. When they run into something that they cannot intuit, they frequently decide that they just weren't good at math after all. It is much easier to swap down a level in difficulty than to swap up.

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We're going to do Teaching Textbooks plus Jousting Armadillos next year.  I really like the inquiry based stuff in JA but it is supposed to be a little less intense than AOPS, and plan on doing it with my daughter (it is designed to be group work in places, so we'll be a group...)

 

 

Thank you, neeko!  

 

 

We've used TabletClass Pre-A which our son really liked.  It prepared him well for AoPS Intro to Algebra which he just finished this year.  We supplemented TabletClass with some AoPS free videos and sample chapter work.  It was just enough to wet his appetite for more.  Though for him AoPS Pre-A would have been too much as a spine program at that stage moving from concrete operations to abstract algebraic reasoning.  It's different for every child.  So make sure to investigate each option in light of your child's unique needs and skills.  The key is finding that just right challenge to motivate without breaking her spirit.

 

On a spectrum of easiest to the most challenging AoPS is the most difficult.  It is largely based on competition style math problems which really stretch the brain and can sometimes take over an hour to solve a single problem.  Most who use it agree that it is not for the majority of students.  It also uses what is known as the 'Discovery Approach' which takes some getting used to and not every child likes.  Teaching Texbooks by contrast is the other end of the spectrum known for being the easiest and good for struggling students.  It can sometimes be a grade level behind.  And there are a lot of programs in between. That is the general consensus.  Derek Owens is another solid Pre-Algebra program which follows a standard S&S similar to Dolciani. 

 

The other thing you'll notice is some families combining programs like an easier one as the spine, then supplementing with more challenging word problems, etc...  There are many ways to add rigor.  But with something like AoPS its hard to ratchet it back unless it is not used as the spine.

 

Here is an interesting read if you haven't seen it already: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/342798-pre-algebra-fence-straddlers-master-thread/

 

Many of us have several Pre-A resources on hand which is not a bad thing when going through this stage.

 

 

Thank you! I hadn't really thought about using multiple pre-algebras to get her through the year. That makes a lot of sense. Off to read the content in your link.

 

 

I think for a gifted and intuitive mathematician I'd at least try AOPS, assuming she passes the pre-algebra readiness test. The first 9 pages of chapter 1 are available as an excerpt on their website, so I'd have her read through it and get her opinion. AOPS is also $54 for the text and solutions manual, so it won't be like trying something out that costs $200.

 

Another option you might consider is the online elements of mathematics curriculum, available at www.elementsofmathematics.com (the aptitude test is free), and also designed for gifted young mathematicians. It is somewhat pricier than AOPS, but there are posters here who have used it and recommend it highly.

 

Another option could be to just continue moving through the Life of Fred sequence, if she is learning well from it. However, you should be aware that some of the Economics content in pre-algebra 2 is a bit on the kooky side, so I would recommend pre-reading.

 

I'd recommend at least attempting one the first two, just because I think one of the biggest issues that talented young mathematicians have is not running into content which genuinely challenges them to think. When they run into something that they cannot intuit, they frequently decide that they just weren't good at math after all. It is much easier to swap down a level in difficulty than to swap up.

Kiana, she would love to keep moving through Fred. We will definitely at least supplement with Fred. Thank you for the great suggestions. You hit the nail on the head. As soon as something doesn't come easily, she decides she's the world's worst mathematician. That's actually what we worked on most last year instead of moving to pre-A then. Got to find the right balance of challenge and encouragement for her.

 

Thanks again, everyone!

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It depends on your budget, but Kiana makes a good point about AoPS being relatively affordable.  In addition you can try the sample chapters and Alcumus which are free.  We did that and it was enough for us to realize it wasn't the right timing 'yet' for our son.  After completing another Pre-A I decided to give the AoPS Intro to Algebra at try.  I figured if it didn't work out as a spine program we could always use it for challenge problems along with another perspective on certain concepts.  I guess you could do the same with the Pre-A text as well if you think there is a chance it may work for her.  

 

Speaking of affordable resources, Dolciani is a classic Pre-A text and can be found for pennies on the dollar used among other Pre-A texts.  We have it as well which we may still use some day with our daughters.

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Thanks again, Derek. I did sign up for Alcumus. That and the sample chapters ought to give us a good feel for how the program might work for her. I will probably pick a copy of Dolciani up as well. I didn't see any copies at the homeschool consignment store across town, so I'll look online. I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be. I would guess almost any curriculum would work fine. There's just SO much to choose from, that it makes my head spin a bit. 

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Thanks again, Derek. I did sign up for Alcumus. That and the sample chapters ought to give us a good feel for how the program might work for her. I will probably pick a copy of Dolciani up as well. I didn't see any copies at the homeschool consignment store across town, so I'll look online. I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be. I would guess almost any curriculum would work fine. There's just SO much to choose from, that it makes my head spin a bit. 

 

Well, if you took a look at the Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers thread above you saw that you are not alone in struggling with the many options.  But that's ok.  ;)  It's actually fairly normal at this critical developmental stage.  For some I think it's easier who simply go with 'one' curriculum all the way through regardless of the life stage like Saxon, TT, MUS, etc...  However others may want to delve deeper into the various options tailoring the curricula for the individual child as they move through their cognitive development.  As a result it takes one on a bit more of an exploratory journey utilizing the child's input as a weighting factor.  I know for our family one size doesn't fit all and varies even by developmental stage.  So this journey is worth it in the end even though more research and flexibility are required.  For us any program 'would not' work fine as each varies so much in format and teaching style.  That is why tailoring really pays off. Though there could be a few programs which work ok depending on the child and level under consideration.  I do think it is worth the time invested to explore the options.

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. You hit the nail on the head. As soon as something doesn't come easily, she decides she's the world's worst mathematician. That's actually what we worked on most last year instead of moving to pre-A then. Got to find the right balance of challenge and encouragement for her.

 

 

This is exactly like my DS9. He's not ready for pre-A, but he's doing Beast Academy right now. MM is too easy -- laughable easy in his mind. BA, on the other hand, is challenging, but if he doesn't get something right away, he freaks out. We're working on his confidence too. Once I can get him to calm down, I ask him simple questions to get him to look at the problem piece-by-piece, and then it clicks. But not if he's having a "fit" about it. I sometimes make him lie down next to me, no talking, for a few minutes. That usually works. He gets it when he's calm. LOL

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying reading your thread. My DD is doing Pre-A next year. We have Jousting Armadillos. I let her read the first few pages of Jousting Armadillos and AoPS Pre-A, and she chose JA. We also have Dolciani's Pre-A, from 1985, or whatever year that is -- the one everyone recommends on these boards. Dolciani was very inexpensive. JA was more than AoPS pre-A is. I may actually purchase AoPS too, as I'd like her to try some of it. I think she could do it, but I don't want to push too hard right out of the gate. Maybe let her build up some confidence and basic understanding first.

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Thank you! I've had several people who know her recommend AOPS so that might be a great thing to at least try for her. I hadn't heard of the Dolciani Pre-Algebra, but I will go check the Homeschool consignment store here to see if anyone has one for sale. Thanks again!!

My son used one chapter of AOPS Prealgebra and really struggled even though he enjoyed it. We switched to Dolciani and he tolerated it and did a little better.

I have AOPS textbook and solution book in excellent like new condition for sale if you are interested. PM me if you want this set.

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I struggle with it too. Like your kiddo, I have a "natural with numbers" child, who has very little confidence in herself, and crumbles when it finally gets challenging.

 

I really wanted AOPS to work for us, and it really is GREAT (the algebra, I never looked at the pre-algebra), but it was far too wordy for my dyslexic kiddo. I'm still considering going back to it, and investing in the AOPS online course as well, but we'll see.

 

Jousting Armadillos would make a great supplement, imo, for pre-algebra (I do not see it as a full program).

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I see you already bought AoPS.  If that proves to not be the correct fit for her, don't write off just continuing with Life of Fred.  I brought my older son home in the fourth grade, and he started with the LoF Fractions book and is now in Advanced Algebra-- I just bought Geometry for him (the Fred series reverses algebra 2 and geometry).  DH is a math professor, and he is as happy as I am with the depth and completeness of Fred, btw, so no worries on that front.  It is not a trivial series.  Our son often sits with and explains algebra 2 problems to much older kids who are using more traditional texts, explaining the reasoning behind the solutions to the problems to them quite clearly-- and he learned it from Fred, not from us.

 

So . . . it's affordable, complete, and she already loves it . . . it might not be a bad fit for your daughter if AoPS just doesn't work at some point.

 

And, FYI, even if AoPS doesn't work this year, you can always try it again later.  I know from my reading of a couple of the books, I really dislike AoPS's approach in pre-algebra (I personally feel they make a very simple subject matter far too difficult, unnecessarily so without any real gain); however I felt the geometry text was brilliant.  For some reason, I have always like Alcumus.

 

My younger is doing well with Singapore Math's Discovering Math/Dimensions Math series, but the upper levels of that are about to be discontinued for an unspecified period of time, so that one is pretty hard to recommend right now for a kid who isn't already doing Singapore, as you kind of have to either commit now and buy up the about about to be discontinued books from whereever you can find them (levels 3 and 4, and very likely soon, the Additional Math series that takes you into farther trig and calculus are the levels being discontinued so that SM can focus only on K-8 for now, according to email correspondence I have had with them recently) or figure on finding something new again in a couple of years-- and the shift into Singapore style thinking probably isn't worth it for that short a time period.

 

Dolciani is also a good choice; many mathematicians were trained using Mary's books and think of her as an old friend :)

 

 

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Well, if you took a look at the Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers thread above you saw that you are not alone in struggling with the many options.  But that's ok.  ;)  It's actually fairly normal at this critical developmental stage.  For some I think it's easier who simply go with 'one' curriculum all the way through regardless of the life stage like Saxon, TT, MUS, etc...  However others may want to delve deeper into the various options tailoring the curricula for the individual child as they move through their cognitive development.  As a result it takes one on a bit more of an exploratory journey utilizing the child's input as a weighting factor.  I know for our family one size doesn't fit all and varies even by developmental stage.  So this journey is worth it in the end even though more research and flexibility are required.  For us any program 'would not' work fine as each varies so much in format and teaching style.  That is why tailoring really pays off. Though there could be a few programs which work ok depending on the child and level under consideration.  I do think it is worth the time invested to explore the options.

  

 

Thanks again, Derek. I completely agree that one size doesn't fit all. That is why my middle daughter is home while her older and younger sisters go to school part time. I think next year we will use a variety of materials to get her ready for algebra. I bought a used copy of Dolciani, put a hold on the Life of Fred pre-algebra books at the library, and plan on trying AoPS. Hopefully we will get a better feel for a good fit, or if may have a similar post as I plan next year.m;)

 

This is exactly like my DS9. He's not ready for pre-A, but he's doing Beast Academy right now. MM is too easy -- laughable easy in his mind. BA, on the other hand, is challenging, but if he doesn't get something right away, he freaks out. We're working on his confidence too. Once I can get him to calm down, I ask him simple questions to get him to look at the problem piece-by-piece, and then it clicks. But not if he's having a "fit" about it. I sometimes make him lie down next to me, no talking, for a few minutes. That usually works. He gets it when he's calm. LOL

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying reading your thread. My DD is doing Pre-A next year. We have Jousting Armadillos. I let her read the first few pages of Jousting Armadillos and AoPS Pre-A, and she chose JA. We also have Dolciani's Pre-A, from 1985, or whatever year that is -- the one everyone recommends on these boards. Dolciani was very inexpensive. JA was more than AoPS pre-A is. I may actually purchase AoPS too, as I'd like her to try some of it. I think she could do it, but I don't want to push too hard right out of the gate. Maybe let her build up some confidence and basic understanding first.

 

 

Yes, I could see moving toward AoPS for algebra even if pre-algebra isn't a good fit. Kind of nice to know I'm not alone. Thank you!

 

 

My son used one chapter of AOPS Prealgebra and really struggled even though he enjoyed it. We switched to Dolciani and he tolerated it and did a little better.

I have AOPS textbook and solution book in excellent like new condition for sale if you are interested. PM me if you want this set.

  

 

Thank you! I hope your copy sells, but I may be in touch after the other things I've ordered arrive so I can review them.

 

I struggle with it too. Like your kiddo, I have a "natural with numbers" child, who has very little confidence in herself, and crumbles when it finally gets challenging.

 

I really wanted AOPS to work for us, and it really is GREAT (the algebra, I never looked at the pre-algebra), but it was far too wordy for my dyslexic kiddo. I'm still considering going back to it, and investing in the AOPS online course as well, but we'll see.

 

Jousting Armadillos would make a great supplement, imo, for pre-algebra (I do not see it as a full program).

 

 

Thank you! DD loves words so at least that part of AoPS should be a good fit. It's hard to find the balance for a kid who is good at things, but doesn't believe it.

 

 

I see you already bought AoPS.  If that proves to not be the correct fit for her, don't write off just continuing with Life of Fred.  I brought my older son home in the fourth grade, and he started with the LoF Fractions book and is now in Advanced Algebra-- I just bought Geometry for him (the Fred series reverses algebra 2 and geometry).  DH is a math professor, and he is as happy as I am with the depth and completeness of Fred, btw, so no worries on that front.  It is not a trivial series.  Our son often sits with and explains algebra 2 problems to much older kids who are using more traditional texts, explaining the reasoning behind the solutions to the problems to them quite clearly-- and he learned it from Fred, not from us.

 

So . . . it's affordable, complete, and she already loves it . . . it might not be a bad fit for your daughter if AoPS just doesn't work at some point.

 

And, FYI, even if AoPS doesn't work this year, you can always try it again later.  I know from my reading of a couple of the books, I really dislike AoPS's approach in pre-algebra (I personally feel they make a very simple subject matter far too difficult, unnecessarily so without any real gain); however I felt the geometry text was brilliant.  For some reason, I have always like Alcumus.

 

My younger is doing well with Singapore Math's Discovering Math/Dimensions Math series, but the upper levels of that are about to be discontinued for an unspecified period of time, so that one is pretty hard to recommend right now for a kid who isn't already doing Singapore, as you kind of have to either commit now and buy up the about about to be discontinued books from whereever you can find them (levels 3 and 4, and very likely soon, the Additional Math series that takes you into farther trig and calculus are the levels being discontinued so that SM can focus only on K-8 for now, according to email correspondence I have had with them recently) or figure on finding something new again in a couple of years-- and the shift into Singapore style thinking probably isn't worth it for that short a time period.

 

Dolciani is also a good choice; many mathematicians were trained using Mary's books and think of her as an old friend :)

Thank you! I bought Dolciani to see, and have a hold on the next Fred books at the library. I'm determined to find the right fit, and reading this was very helpful. Thank you!

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