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Article: Real vs Fake Persecution CC


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Just because Christians in America are fortunately not in any physical danger, does NOT mean that they don't face persecution for their beliefs. Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption. The loss of religious liberty in recent years here in the U.S. is a very serious problem, even if Christians aren't being physically harmed (yet).

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How true. I'm so tired of people crying "Persecution!" every time they are in any way discouraged from forcing their religious beliefs on others.

 

Not everyone is Christian, and not everyone wants to be subject to Christian strictures. That is not anti-Christian persecution.

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Another one that bothers me is when someone refuses to work on Sundays, doesn't get hired, and calls it religious persecution. The reason you weren't hired was because they need someone to work on Sundays, not because you're a Christian.

 

I know Christian persecution happens in this country, but I've never been victim to it. If you want to know what persecution looks like in America, ask a Muslim. 

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Just because Christians in America are fortunately not in any physical danger, does NOT mean that they don't face persecution for their beliefs. Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption. The loss of religious liberty in recent years here in the U.S. is a very serious problem, even if Christians aren't being physically harmed (yet).

 

I confess that, just as the writer of the article warned, I often roll my eyes at the real problems because I am besieged with friends that 'cry wolf'. 

 

I live in a highly 'religious' community and have seen far too many of the obnoxious folks. I hear about the "War on Religion" and the "War on Christmas" endlessly.  I hear how it is a badge of honor to be persecuted. I am thankful that I was introduced to the love of Christ before moving here or I would not find Christianity appealing.

 

I know, logically, these people are the minority and I know it is not fair for all Christians (myself included) but sometimes I feel like Christians deserve a little 'push back'.

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Just because Christians in America are fortunately not in any physical danger, does NOT mean that they don't face persecution for their beliefs. Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption. The loss of religious liberty in recent years here in the U.S. is a very serious problem, even if Christians aren't being physically harmed (yet).

There is nothing stopping them from continuing doing the same work, but as Christians operating an organization that is secular. If it was really persecution based on being Christian they would not be allowed to work in that field at all. This is not the case. To be honest, your example is one that makes me roll my eyes. If that was their calling and their ministry, they do not need to have the word Christian to do the work. They can still live their religion and do the same work of finding children a family. 

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There is nothing stopping them from continuing doing the same work, but as Christians operating an organization that is secular. If it was really persecution based on being Christian they would not be allowed to work in that field at all. This is not the case. To be honest, your example is one that makes me roll my eyes. If that was their calling and their ministry, they do not need to have the word Christian to do the work. They can still live their religion and do the same work of finding children a family. 

 

Exactly. You think pride would take a backseat in a situation like this.

 

What was the other charity company recently that announced they were fine with hiring those in a same-sex marriage and had so many people stop their donations?

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Exactly. You think pride would take a backseat in a situation like this.

 

What was the other charity company recently that announced they were fine with hiring those in a same-sex marriage and had so many people stop their donations?

 

 

Oh, but that doesn't count as persecution.  That's religious freedom. 

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Christians are about as persecuted in the US as white men. Both groups seem to equate no longer running things with being persecuted. I'm glad to see that some Christians are aware of this and also find it ridiculous.

But but but . White guys are no longer running things? On what planet?

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It's an interesting topic, because I have never known a single person In my everyday life who has made the claim that they were victims of religious persecution.

 

I see stories about it online or in the media, but I get the impression that those people represent a very small minority of extreme Christians who want to get on the news and have everyone make a fuss over them, so their groups will appear larger and more important than they really are.

 

I don't think the average Christian in the United States sits around all day feeling persecuted for his or her beliefs.

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It's an interesting topic, because I have never known a single person In my everyday life who has made the claim that they were victims of religious persecution.

 

I see stories about it online or in the media, but I get the impression that those people represent a very small minority of extreme Christians who want to get on the news and have everyone make a fuss over them, so their groups will appear larger and more important than they really are.

 

I don't think the average Christian in the United States sits around all day feeling persecuted for his or her beliefs.

 

I wish this were so. Or maybe I wish I lived where I could believe they were a small minority.  

 

Unfortunately, I live in the South (North Florida), where it is quite common to discuss the 'End Times" and the "attacks of the 'world' on true believers" and the ever popular 'them' that are destroying our schools/town/faith/country/whatever with their political correctness. And by political correctness I mean anything that is not exactly the way it was "When I was a child".

 

They are not a small minority nor are they harmless eccentrics, they do constant real harm to the cause of Christ. 

 

I like to think I homeschooled my kids to keep them away from the religion in the schools. ha 

 

Sorry if this sounds bitter but too many years here have worn me down, and given me little to hope for in organized religion. Fortunately I know that God is not confined by religious denomination.

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I do think that the ones who claim (for example) that not allowing a public school teacher to lead the class in prayer is religious persecution (one of my relatives recently claimed this) are fewer in number than the media makes them appear. Unfortunately, they're still higher in number than I would wish.

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I think this can apply to many things where people cry persecution that in fact did not exist.

 

currently - a woman is crying discrimination for breastfeeding her baby in the pit at a rock concert.  security told her to move to protect her baby's ear drums.  (what was she doing with a baby at a rock concert?).  

 

but that doesn't mean it isn't ever real.

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Just because Christians in America are fortunately not in any physical danger, does NOT mean that they don't face persecution for their beliefs. Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption. The loss of religious liberty in recent years here in the U.S. is a very serious problem, even if Christians aren't being physically harmed (yet).

 

Wait. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that by being compelled to follow the law (ie, not being exempt from following the law for religious reasons), Christians are being persecuted? Are you sure this isn't more accurately a matter of not getting a privilege they want, one they've always had? Loss of liberties shouldn't be confused with loss of privileges, especially when those privileges encroach on the liberties of others. 

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It's an interesting topic, because I have never known a single person In my everyday life who has made the claim that they were victims of religious persecution.

 

I see stories about it online or in the media, but I get the impression that those people represent a very small minority of extreme Christians who want to get on the news and have everyone make a fuss over them, so their groups will appear larger and more important than they really are.

 

I don't think the average Christian in the United States sits around all day feeling persecuted for his or her beliefs.

I know LOTS of Christians who honestly believe that not having prayer in schools is persecution. And they think the whole "war on Christmas" thing is persecution too. When they express these sentiments in front of me, I ask them how they would feel if it was a Muslim or Buddhist prayer being offered at school and if they wouldn't want their kids exposed to that then how can they think it is okay to subject Muslims and Buddhists to Christian prayer? They are always shocked- they clearly have never considered any perspective other than their own, but they still cling to those ideas.

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Christians are about as persecuted in the US as white men. Both groups seem to equate no longer running things with being persecuted. I'm glad to see that some Christians are aware of this and also find it ridiculous.

 

TRIPLE, TRIPLE, TRIPLE LIKE!

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Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption.

They were not forced. They chose to stop because they couldn't stomach continuing to serve children in a non-bigoted way.

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Wait. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that by being compelled to follow the law (ie, not being exempt from following the law for religious reasons), Christians are being persecuted? Are you sure this isn't more accurately a matter of not getting a privilege they want, one they've always had? Loss of liberties shouldn't be confused with loss of privileges, especially when those privileges encroach on the liberties of others.

I think you understood correctly.

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I know LOTS of Christians who honestly believe that not having prayer in schools is persecution. And they think the whole "war on Christmas" thing is persecution too. When they express these sentiments in front of me, I ask them how they would feel if it was a Muslim or Buddhist prayer being offered at school and if they wouldn't want their kids exposed to that then how can they think it is okay to subject Muslims and Buddhists to Christian prayer? They are always shocked- they clearly have never considered any perspective other than their own, but they still cling to those ideas.

 

On the subject of "prayers in school - but what if it was Buddhist?", I have in the past spammed this link mercilessly. It speaks of just that experience. When I got a new computer, the very third thing I did was look it up and bookmark it, because sooner or later it always comes in handy.

 

Of course, as the joke goes, as long as we have tests in school, we will have prayer in school. When you know you don't have a snowball's chance of passing, you'll try anything.

 

Prayer in school just has to follow a few rules.

 

It has to be student led - the teacher can't just decide to start every period with a prayer. It has to be non-disruptive - if you want to pray right in the middle of math class, do it silently. And it has to be non-coercive - no implicitly making "being a Christian and praying with us" a social requirement for joining the chess club, or the drama club, or the football team, or whatever.

 

Oh, and, of course, prayer groups can't be given special privileges. If all the other clubs need a staff advisor, so does the Bible club. If none of the other groups can make announcments over the loudspeaker, neither can the prayer group. (That goes the other way as well - no special hardships for them.)

 

This is not really that difficult, but there is a lot of ignorance surrounding the issue. I'm sure there are many Christians who really do think they can't pray in school or bring a Bible to read during lunch, that this is just against the rules.

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I find it silly that the author of that article boycotted football games due to his distaste for the prayers offered. Come late or go to the bathroom/concession during the invocation. This is another example of making a mountain out of a molehill. (Not, of course, that I agree with formal prayers at school events.)

 

And if he's actually worried about offending those with whom he lives and works, "I'm so horrified by your pagan prayers that I must absent myself from this community event lest I be tainted by your heathen ways" is pretty darn offensive.

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I find it silly that the author of that article boycotted football games due to his distaste for the prayers offered. Come late or go to the bathroom/concession during the invocation. This is another example of making a mountain out of a molehill. (Not, of course, that I agree with formal prayers at school events.)

 

And if he's actually worried about offending those with whom he lives and works, "I'm so horrified by your pagan prayers that I must absent myself from this community event lest I be tainted by your heathen ways" is pretty darn offensive.

 

Yeah, well, it's WND. You gotta take what you can get, and the point is still valid in a way that certain parties will actually *listen to*.

 

 

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I find it silly that the author of that article boycotted football games due to his distaste for the prayers offered. Come late or go to the bathroom/concession during the invocation. This is another example of making a mountain out of a molehill. (Not, of course, that I agree with formal prayers at school events.)

 

And if he's actually worried about offending those with whom he lives and works, "I'm so horrified by your pagan prayers that I must absent myself from this community event lest I be tainted by your heathen ways" is pretty darn offensive.

Why is it silly? If I don't want to go to events where they are worshiping in ways I personally don't agree with, what's silly about me deciding to not attend them? Regardless of their reasons why. I don't think they should even have to state why. Why should they bother with exiting portions of the event instead? How is that less silly?

 

Idk what I would do. Probably just politely ignore what's going while I read the program or check emails on my phone or something I guess. But if I was annoyed by it for whatever reason, sure I might decide to just not bother attending those events. Big whoop. If the community at large likes having a prayer, I'm not going to tell them to stop bc I personally don't agree with their choice. Especially as it is just football game, not anything particularly important.

 

But then again, in my state, saying football isn't important makes me an outcast to begin with. ;p

 

I confess I have never once in my life attended a football game and have no desire to change that at this point. So maybe that colors my attitude of shrugging off deciding to not attend them bc of religious differences.

 

Now if my kid was playing on the team and the coach started praying, *that* would bother me for my kid. Usually players can't just decide to opt out without repercussions. Idk how I would handle it. Case by case probably.

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Why is it silly? 

 

IMO, it's silly because the Christian kids he worked with at the church youth group invited him to attend their games, and he refused because of a few short minutes of prayer that didn't support his beliefs. To me, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face. But beyond that, he was so self-pitying in his article when really the solution is ridiculously simple. Unless he really believes that the entire football game is a threat to his religious life because most people there don't share his religion. Then that's just sad. I exist quite well attending things in my life that don't reflect my religious beliefs (which would be nearly everything), so I have never understood the idea that someone's spiritual well-being is negatively impacted by events that don't center on their religion.

 

 

 

Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs. I felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land.

 

I mean, really? Other people praying in a way that he doesn't is hostile? He has to defend and proclaim his own beliefs merely because he is in the presence of those with differing beliefs? And he felt ostracized? If I were that uptight I would never be able to leave my house!

 

 

 

 

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Real persecution is what you can read about in Voice of the Martrys magazine. It is serious, scary stuff - that does not happen in America. (That is not to say that it couldn't at some time.)

 

WORLD magazine has also had many excellent articles in the last year or so about the plight of Christians in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq especially. There have also been articles about China, Turkey, Ukraine and Indonesia.

 

Reading about the real thing might keep people from whining about cultural shifts. I do think that the U.S. is marching quickly down the road to some very real losses of religious and other liberties, but that is another thread....

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This is not really that difficult, but there is a lot of ignorance surrounding the issue. I'm sure there are many Christians who really do think they can't pray in school or bring a Bible to read during lunch, that this is just against the rules.

 

And, of course, there HAVE been cases where confused school employees have attempted to enforce such a rule. For some reason I can't paste links, but if you search for ACLU TN Cannon it comes up first.

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IMO, it's silly because the Christian kids he worked with at the church youth group invited him to attend their games, and he refused because of a few short minutes of prayer that didn't support his beliefs. To me, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Did they invite him? He doesn't say he was invited. Just that they were able to attend. I wouldn't assume he was invited. These are priests in our diocese who are very into sports and often attends the games of students in their parish. They don't get invited usually. They are public events. But he likes to show up to support kids from his parish. And hey. He loves football, so win-win. Personally I think it's kind of weird tho not unusual. They all claim it's to be involved in the kids lives, but I don't see any youth leaders or priests jumping to sit through 4-he fairs or go to civil air patrol awards or or or. Frankly I think it is just an excuse to go to football and baseball games. But whatever.

 

I mean, really? Other people praying in a way that he doesn't is hostile? He has to defend and proclaim his own beliefs merely because he is in the presence of those with differing beliefs? And he felt ostracized? If I were that uptight I would never be able to leave my house!

I don't find it hard to believe. On this board, people complain all the time about being a minority that doesn't feel comfortable surrounded by the majority. Lots of different ways. Religious, ethnic, skin color, economic, home vs public/private schoolers, SAHM vs working moms, SAHDs being made to feel uncomfortable in social situations was a recent discussion.

 

He was specific in referencing being a Christian minority in a region not in the states. So yes, I can picture how that makes navigating social situations tricky. Maybe getting up and leaving during prayer would be more noticeable or cause those in the community to raise questions about him. Idk. But I can see that. People who don't share the or any religion post on here all the time about how to navigate social situations they encounter and various ways they feel uncomfortable. Silly or not, it's part of socializing.

 

So much yes. I also live in the land of "persecuted" Christians. I have even been told that voting for a nonreligious political candidate is me persecuting Christians. :huh: :confused1: :cursing: :banghead:

Ugh. People are annoying.

 

However, I will note there is a difference between nonreligious and anti-religious. There's times when I think the nonreligious person has a more Christian policy than the supposed Christian candidate. (For anything. School board, congress, what have you.) I would argue that an anti-religion person most certainly has potential for Christian persecution in various forms. But I don't want to get into politics. :)

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In my church, every day of the year is marked by a particular saint or saints. Many of them (and I do mean MANY) suffered unimaginable torture and/or terrifying deaths for their faith. And we read these stories every day. During our services we also pray for the Christians who are suffering terribly right now in other parts of the world, being imprisoned and even killed for their faith. It's very hard for me to imagine people confusing persecution with minor inconvenience.

 

I really do understand that it's hard for Christians to live in a time/place that's moving from mostly-Christian to something else. This saddens me too. But it doesn't make me feel persecuted. Not even close. (Plus, I'm convinced that American culture has always been a lot more American than it has been Christian, but that's another story.)

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And, of course, there HAVE been cases where confused school employees have attempted to enforce such a rule. For some reason I can't paste links, but if you search for ACLU TN Cannon it comes up first.

 

Indeed. And in those cases it isn't always the Mean Old Atheist Who Doesn't Want Kids To Pray. I mean, it *could* be (as an atheist, I hope it's pretty darn rare, but I won't deny it's a possibility, mean people exist in all groups), but it's just as often (possibly more often because there simply are an awful lot of Christians in the US) a Christian teacher who feels sympathetic but thinks they have to follow the (non-existent) rules.

 

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Did they invite him? He doesn't say he was invited. Just that they were able to attend.

 

Absolutely he was invited. And he claims he was "forced" to decline. He was NOT forced. He CHOSE not to attend. He was not restrained or barred from attending. He was not chased away when he tried to attend. He freely chose not to go. The whole article is phrased in conflictual, persecutory language when in actuality, everything this man did was his own free choice. But he does give us a clear understanding of the persecution-colored glasses through which he views the world.

 

Although many of the students we worked with continued to invite us to the games, we were forced to decline.

 

 

 

He was specific in referencing being a Christian minority in a region not in the states.

 

 

How carefully did you read this article? He was in HAWAII! Last I checked, part of the States since 1959! ;)

 

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Absolutely he was invited. And he claims he was "forced" to decline. He was NOT forced. He CHOSE not to attend. He was not restrained or barred from attending. He was not chased away when he tried to attend. He freely chose not to go. The whole article is phrased in conflictual, persecutory language when in actuality, everything this man did was his own free choice. But he does give us a clear understanding of the persecution-colored glasses through which he views the world.

Ack. Well I agree he had a choice regardless of invitation or not. And I agree forced is too strong a word.

 

How carefully did you read this article? He was in HAWAII! Last I checked, part of the States since 1959! ;)

 

Well crap. Sorry. I think I screwed up "continental 48 states" so bad on my iPhone that autocorrect just omitted.

 

This is what I was referencing:

 

Christians and others from various Judeo-Christian traditions were in the very distinct minority in this little village that was populated predominantly by people of Japanese and Chinese ancestry. Rather than a church on every corner, as is common in the continental 48 states, Wahiawa had a Shinto or Buddhist shrine on every corner.

Being as he was in the military, I'm not sure how he functioned at work. Next to missionary work, I can't think of many careers that require dealing with other cultures and beliefs in a hospitable manner on a daily basis. Weird. I can "get it" but given his career choice, I think it's odd he hasn't had to deal with this before. That would be like a missionary going to some heathen area to open a school or give medical care and then saying they never interacted with the community because they were of a different religious beliefs. I guess one could do that, but it beggars the question of why they are there and how effective they should expect to be. :/

 

I'm not agreeing with him.

 

I'm simply saying as how I could understand feeling ostracized due to religious belief differences.

 

ETA: no time to edit!

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Indeed. And in those cases it isn't always the Mean Old Atheist Who Doesn't Want Kids To Pray. I mean, it *could* be (as an atheist, I hope it's pretty darn rare, but I won't deny it's a possibility, mean people exist in all groups), but it's just as often (possibly more often because there simply are an awful lot of Christians in the US) a Christian teacher who feels sympathetic but thinks they have to follow the (non-existent) rules.

 

Oh absolutely. I hope I wasn't implying that these were Mean Old Atheists -- most often they're just people who are confused about the rules and what is and is not allowed.

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It has been my experience that lots of people have trouble adjusting to being a minority of some sort. Hawaii is a very diverse place with no distinct majority. Everyone is a little bit of a minority, but very white people tend to stand out amongst the Pacific Islander/Asian/mixed majority (which isn't a true majority since they are made up of a bunch of different cultures). I think I had an easier time adjusting to living here in some ways because I am not that white, so was treated less as an outsider or with less suspicion by the local or semi-local population.

 

When someone is used to being in the majority, then it can be uncomfortable to be a minority. I think that is what a lot of people experience when they move to Hawaii. It might *feel* like discrimination, but it isn't, it just isn't the same comfortable privilege that they usually enjoy.

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Reading about the real thing might keep people from whining about cultural shifts. I do think that the U.S. is marching quickly down the road to some very real losses of religious and other liberties, but that is another thread....

 

What you see as losing religious liberties I see as expanding them so that all religions are respected.

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Did they invite him? He doesn't say he was invited. Just that they were able to attend. I wouldn't assume he was invited. These are priests in our diocese who are very into sports and often attends the games of students in their parish. They don't get invited usually. They are public events. But he likes to show up to support kids from his parish. And hey. He loves football, so win-win. Personally I think it's kind of weird tho not unusual. They all claim it's to be involved in the kids lives, but I don't see any youth leaders or priests jumping to sit through 4-he fairs or go to civil air patrol awards or or or. Frankly I think it is just an excuse to go to football and baseball games. But whatever.

 

)

I disagree that it is about the sport, not the child. At least not in my sons case. There have been several adults in my sons life who have come to watch and support my son in his passions. Usually skating, but not always. Football and baseball games are far better advertised than debate or 4H fairs. My small town has an award winning debate team and a crummy football team. Guess which is easier to find out when they play?

 

It very well maybe that the person has no clue how those events work or when and where to go support the kids. I would have no clue about skating if my son did not skate and I would not expect anyone else to either.

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 I do think that the U.S. is marching quickly down the road to some very real losses of religious and other liberties, but that is another thread....

 

I think that fits within this thread. The opportunities religions are losing are things I would consider to be unjustified privileges, not liberties. I would consider them unjustified by virtue of the Constitution or general ethical considerations. Can you share an example of the kinds of liberties you see being lost? 

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My mother complains about the war on Christmas every year. As far as I can tell, Christmas is still being shoved quite effectively down our throats and if there is a war, the atheists are losing badly.

 

A friend shared this article with me a few days ago: 30+ Examples of Christian Privilege

 

  1. You can expect to have time off work to celebrate religious holidays.
  2. Music and television programs pertaining to your religion’s holidays are readily accessible.
  3. It is easy to find stores that carry items that enable you to practice your faith and celebrate religious holidays.
  4. You aren’t pressured to celebrate holidays from another faith that may conflict with your religious values.
  5. Holidays celebrating your faith are so widely supported you can often forget they are limited to your faith (e.g. wish someone a “Merry Christmas†or “Happy Easter†without considering their faith).
  6. You can worship freely, without fear of violence or threats.
  7. A bumper sticker supporting your religion won’t likely lead to your car being vandalized.
  8. You can practice your religious customs without being questioned, mocked, or inhibited.
  9. If you are being tried in court, you can assume that the jury of “your peers†will share your faith and not hold that against you in weighing decisions.
  10. When swearing an oath, you will place your hand on a religious scripture pertaining to your faith.
  11. Positive references to your faith are seen dozens a time a day by everyone, regardless of their faith.
  12. Politicians responsible for your governance are probably members of your faith.
  13. Politicians can make decisions citing your faith without being labeled as heretics or extremists.
  14. It is easy for you to find your faith accurately depicted in television, movies, books, and other media.
  15. You can reasonably assume that anyone you encounter will have a decent understanding of your beliefs.
  16. You will not be penalized (socially or otherwise) for not knowing other people’s religious customs.
  17. Your faith is accepted/supported at your workplace.
  18. You can go into any career you want without it being associated with or explained by your faith.
  19. You can travel to any part of the country and know your religion will be accepted, safe, and you will have access to religious spaces to practice your faith.
  20. Your faith can be an aspect of your identity without being a defining aspect (e.g., people won’t think of you as their “Christian†friend)
  21. You can be polite, gentle, or peaceful, and not be considered an “exception†to those practicing your faith.
  22. Fundraising to support congregations of your faith will not be investigated as potentially threatening or terrorist behavior.
  23. Construction of spaces of worship will not likely be halted due to your faith.
  24. You are never asked to speak on behalf of all the members of your faith.
  25. It is unlikely you will be judged by the actions of other members of your faith.
  26. You can go anywhere and assume you will be surrounded by members of your faith.
  27. Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of teachers who share your faith.
  28. Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of friends who share your faith.
  29. It is easily accessible for you or your children to be educated from kindergarten through post-grad at institutions of your faith.
  30. Disclosing your faith to an adoption agency will not likely prevent you from being able to adopt children.
  31. In the event of a divorce, the judge won’t immediately grant custody of your children to your ex because of your faith.
  32. Your faith is taught or offered as a course at most public institutions.
  33. You can complain about your religion being under attack without it being perceived as an attack on another religion.
  34. You can dismiss the idea that identifying with your faith bears certain privileges.

 

I have to admit, I think this is a pretty compelling list of examples of religious privilege, specifically Christian privilege in the US. I can see how these might be viewed as being "shoved quite effectively down our throats," even beyond Christmas (I know you're not saying this, I am though), although I do recognize Christians probably don't intend their celebrations to be interpreted as "shoving." It is what it is, we're accustomed to these privileges only, it is unjustified privilege. In my opinion anyway. The confusion between eliminating traditional privileges and actual persecution is worth exposing, I think. Especially as people who feel they are backed into a corner can feel justified at reacting violently when they think they're defending themselves (another interesting concept to ponder and explore). 

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A friend shared this article with me a few days ago: 30+ Examples of Christian Privilege

 

  • You can expect to have time off work to celebrate religious holidays.
  • Music and television programs pertaining to your religion’s holidays are readily accessible.
  • It is easy to find stores that carry items that enable you to practice your faith and celebrate religious holidays.
  • You aren’t pressured to celebrate holidays from another faith that may conflict with your religious values.
  • Holidays celebrating your faith are so widely supported you can often forget they are limited to your faith (e.g. wish someone a “Merry Christmas†or “Happy Easter†without considering their faith).
  • You can worship freely, without fear of violence or threats.
  • A bumper sticker supporting your religion won’t likely lead to your car being vandalized.
  • You can practice your religious customs without being questioned, mocked, or inhibited.
  • If you are being tried in court, you can assume that the jury of “your peers†will share your faith and not hold that against you in weighing decisions.
  • When swearing an oath, you will place your hand on a religious scripture pertaining to your faith.
  • Positive references to your faith are seen dozens a time a day by everyone, regardless of their faith.
  • Politicians responsible for your governance are probably members of your faith.
  • Politicians can make decisions citing your faith without being labeled as heretics or extremists.
  • It is easy for you to find your faith accurately depicted in television, movies, books, and other media.
  • You can reasonably assume that anyone you encounter will have a decent understanding of your beliefs.
  • You will not be penalized (socially or otherwise) for not knowing other people’s religious customs.
  • Your faith is accepted/supported at your workplace.
  • You can go into any career you want without it being associated with or explained by your faith.
  • You can travel to any part of the country and know your religion will be accepted, safe, and you will have access to religious spaces to practice your faith.
  • Your faith can be an aspect of your identity without being a defining aspect (e.g., people won’t think of you as their “Christian†friend)
  • You can be polite, gentle, or peaceful, and not be considered an “exception†to those practicing your faith.
  • Fundraising to support congregations of your faith will not be investigated as potentially threatening or terrorist behavior.
  • Construction of spaces of worship will not likely be halted due to your faith.
  • You are never asked to speak on behalf of all the members of your faith.
  • It is unlikely you will be judged by the actions of other members of your faith.
  • You can go anywhere and assume you will be surrounded by members of your faith.
  • Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of teachers who share your faith.
  • Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of friends who share your faith.
  • It is easily accessible for you or your children to be educated from kindergarten through post-grad at institutions of your faith.
  • Disclosing your faith to an adoption agency will not likely prevent you from being able to adopt children.
  • In the event of a divorce, the judge won’t immediately grant custody of your children to your ex because of your faith.
  • Your faith is taught or offered as a course at most public institutions.
  • You can complain about your religion being under attack without it being perceived as an attack on another religion.
  • You can dismiss the idea that identifying with your faith bears certain privileges.

I have to admit, I think this is a pretty compelling list of examples of religious privilege, specifically Christian privilege in the US. I can see how these might be viewed as being "shoved quite effectively down our throats," even beyond Christmas (I know you're not saying this, I am though), although I do recognize Christians probably don't intend their celebrations to be interpreted as "shoving." It is what it is, we're accustomed to these privileges only, it is unjustified privilege. In my opinion anyway. The confusion between eliminating traditional privileges and actual persecution is worth exposing, I think. Especially as people who feel they are backed into a corner can feel justified at reacting violently when they think they're defending themselves (another interesting concept to ponder and explore).

I love this. I remember feeling persecuted when I was Christian because of a perception of lost liberties that really were simply unjust privileges. It's very hard to see outside that mindset though, I think, because it's heard everywhere, war on religion, war on Christmas, politicians rely on it because it plays on the fear of a changing culture.

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I know LOTS of Christians who honestly believe that not having prayer in schools is persecution. And they think the whole "war on Christmas" thing is persecution too. When they express these sentiments in front of me, I ask them how they would feel if it was a Muslim or Buddhist prayer being offered at school and if they wouldn't want their kids exposed to that then how can they think it is okay to subject Muslims and Buddhists to Christian prayer? They are always shocked- they clearly have never considered any perspective other than their own, but they still cling to those ideas.

When I have attempted this tactic, I am told that it is not the same, because Christianity is true and other religions are false. It's at this point I am usually invited to excuse myself from the conversation because as a nonChristian, my opinion is not relevant. 

 

I was stunned the first few times. Now I know not to enter into any religious discussion unless specifically invited. Even then, I might decline with "I am not Christian, so my opinion doesn't matter." No one has yet argued that it does, in fact, matter.

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[*]You can expect to have time off work to celebrate religious holidays.

No. For the majority of our marriage my dh and I had to work holidays same as everyone else. Both my kids with jobs have to be available to work Sundays, Easter, Christmas. Frankly I think ANY holidays off is a privilege of wealth, not necessarily religion. I know several people who have other religions and they get off work for their stuff. My sister works at a catholic hospital and gets her Wiccan whatever they call it off work. Not being insulting there. Is it a holiday it what? I don't know. But she tells her boss it's a major thing and she gets off for it.

 

[*]Music and television programs pertaining to your religion’s holidays are readily accessible.

Like on the radio and broadcast tv? Not really. Most of it is stuff like Jiggle Bells or Santa is coming to town. Which while sorta Christian, I guess, doesn't really have diddly to do with being Catholic. It's sure not traditional Saint Nicholas. And then there is that stupid song Mary, did you know. Drives me nuts. YES she knew! An ANGEL appeared and TOLD her so! Stupid song...;p

 

[*]It is easy to find stores that carry items that enable you to practice your faith and celebrate religious holidays.

 

That's true. However, I know there are 2 catholic stores and 1 Islamic stores here. So that one is a wash. I don't understand how this is a privilege unless others can't open stores too. If they want a store, open one. If they aren't allowed to, that is problem I will agree.

 

[*]You aren’t pressured to celebrate holidays from another faith that may conflict with your religious values.

Sometimes. Not much these days. I suppose how that would look would depend on the individual. When we were first married companies had "Christmas parties", but now I don't know many that do. They might still have a party, but they don't call it a Christmas party. They just call it a holiday party. Does that count? To me it doesn't. But I guess that might not be inclusive enough for someone else. Some Protestant views have drifted so far from catholic teaching that I find myself having more in common with non Christians than Protestants sometimes too. Go figure.

 

[*]Holidays celebrating your faith are so widely supported you can often forget they are limited to your faith (e.g. wish someone a “Merry Christmas†or “Happy Easter†without considering their faith).

I concede this one. Though I don't know how far this goes. I don't really walk around saying merry Christmas and happy Easter to much of anyone. But it's habitual to automatically say, "God bless you" when someone sneezes. I guess that could mean I'm privileged. Tho I don't know that is religious even these days.

 

[*]You can worship freely, without fear of violence or threats.

Location location location on this one. I would agree I feel fine here. But then again, the local Islamic society, Buddhist temple and so forth organizations around me seem to feel okay too. Tho of course I guess they might not say otherwise to me bc I would be viewed as an outsider.

 

[*]A bumper sticker supporting your religion won’t likely lead to your car being vandalized.

Not true. Plenty of people hate the Catholic Church. And where I live it is also a minority. Less than 5% here are Catholic.

 

[*]You can practice your religious customs without being questioned, mocked, or inhibited.

Not true. I've had people say I'm not Christian if I'm catholic. Mocked our stance on birth control. Been given The Look for praying before meals. Or for saying the Our Father 'wrong'. I get questioned all. The. Time. I don't mind being questioned though.

 

[*]If you are being tried in court, you can assume that the jury of “your peers†will share your faith and not hold that against you in weighing decisions.

I honestly have no idea in this one. So I'll be optimistic and concede it. But I could just as easily see in my area that a practicing Roman Catholic home schooling mother of 10 would be viewed negatively from the start.

 

[*]When swearing an oath, you will place your hand on a religious scripture pertaining to your faith.

Um. No. Do we still do that even? If so, we shouldn't. Geez. Don't some Protestants view swearing in the bible as blasphemy? Isn't that the same as saying, "I swear to God!"?

 

[*]Positive references to your faith are seen dozens a time a day by everyone, regardless of their faith.

Not really.

 

[*]Politicians responsible for your governance are probably members of your faith.

Like I want them. If it's any consolation, I sincerely wish the majority of them would shut up or at least admit they don't actually practice the faith they claim. It's usually more frustrating and embarrassing than any sort of 'privilege'.

 

[*]Politicians can make decisions citing your faith without being labeled as heretics or extremists.

Actually, many Catholics call them heretics all the time. Wish to heck the media would too.

 

[*]It is easy for you to find your faith accurately depicted in television, movies, books, and other media.

No. Just no. Makes my head hurt. No, practicing Catholics and how the church functions are not as seen on tv.

 

[*]You can reasonably assume that anyone you encounter will have a decent understanding of your beliefs.

See above. I've actually had people say things like, "I know Catholics believe ___ bc I saw on tv ___." No. Just no.

 

[*]You will not be penalized (socially or otherwise) for not knowing other people’s religious customs.

Maybe. I guess. Idk. I try to be polite and I ask questions and if I screw up and accidentally insult someone, I offer apologies. This policy has always carried me through well enough with people who have different customs or beliefs than myself. I've been excluded socially for not following some social expectation.

 

[*]Your faith is accepted/supported at your workplace.

It wasn't for my dh. But we chalked it up to him being a man, not Catholicism. Maybe it was both?

 

[*]You can go into any career you want without it being associated with or explained by your faith.

Big huge no. For example, apparently catholic judges aren't too popular. JFK was seriously questioned about being catholic when he ran for president. Doctors. Nurses.

 

[*]You can travel to any part of the country and know your religion will be accepted, safe, and you will have access to religious spaces to practice your faith.

I hope so. Maybe not the spaces. There's many places that don't have enough priests/churches.

 

[*]Your faith can be an aspect of your identity without being a defining aspect (e.g., people won’t think of you as their “Christian†friend)

I am frequently referred to as, "my catholic friend". It doesn't bother me. Why would it? It IS a defining aspect of who I am.

 

[*]You can be polite, gentle, or peaceful, and not be considered an “exception†to those practicing your faith.

um. Okay. Some people are just stupid. I think that is more racist than religious. If anything people expect me to be those things bc they automatically assume I should be like Michele Duggar. They get quite the shock to that theory.

 

[*]Fundraising to support congregations of your faith will not be investigated as potentially threatening or terrorist behavior.

Only those who practice it and thus are deemed extremist. I have no idea if I qualify.

 

[*]Construction of spaces of worship will not likely be halted due to your faith.

concede

 

[*]You are never asked to speak on behalf of all the members of your faith.

Not true.

 

[*]It is unlikely you will be judged by the actions of other members of your faith.

Just all the time

 

[*]You can go anywhere and assume you will be surrounded by members of your faith.

unlikely

 

[*]Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of teachers who share your faith.

[*]Without special effort, your children will have a multitude of friends who share your faith.

very unlikely. Even if I send them to catholic school.

 

[*]It is easily accessible for you or your children to be educated from kindergarten through post-grad at institutions of your faith.

if I were wealthy.

 

[*]Disclosing your faith to an adoption agency will not likely prevent you from being able to adopt children.

so many questions on this one

 

[*]In the event of a divorce, the judge won’t immediately grant custody of your children to your ex because of your faith.

I have no idea. So I'll concede.

 

[*]Your faith is taught or offered as a course at most public institutions.

Like at college? Sure. So is Islam, Buddhism and some others. I have no idea what is "most" but iirc all of them here do.

 

[*]You can complain about your religion being under attack without it being perceived as an attack on another religion.

idk. But it sure is considered an attack on lots of things.

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The article is taking about Christianity..... I'm sure many many many denominations could nitpick the points. Every denomination , honestly. If you honestly think it's as alienating to be a Catholic as it is to be Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, I don't know what to say to that. Trust me when I say from a non- Christian perspective, calling the same old late Dec gathering a 'holiday party' is not the same full renunciation of Christmas as it is to you.

 

It does sound like you love in a fairly bigoted part of the country. Sorry to hear that. 'My Catholic friend ' is just plain rude.

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When I have attempted this tactic, I am told that it is not the same, because Christianity is true and other religions are false. It's at this point I am usually invited to excuse myself from the conversation because as a nonChristian, my opinion is not relevant. 

 

I was stunned the first few times. Now I know not to enter into any religious discussion unless specifically invited. Even then, I might decline with "I am not Christian, so my opinion doesn't matter." No one has yet argued that it does, in fact, matter.

I have experienced the bold on this board.  

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