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Nutjobs, narcissists and borderline personalities


Snickerdoodle
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It might not be appreciated at the moment, but I feel sorry for them. They have medical conditions that make them unpleasant to be around and they probably don't even know it because their world feels so normal.

 

"Unpleasant" isn't quite the word I was searching for. I'd go for "cruel" and "vile."

 

People with rabies don't know they have a problem either, but we wouldn't invite them to Christmas. Having grown up with Narcissistic Personality Disordered parents I'm not at a point where I feel for them anymore. (I did for a long, long time.)

 

These people attack kids, animals, and the sweetest, most vulnerable.

 

Alley

 

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It's easier to appreciate the medical condition from far, far away. 

 

3,000  miles away has worked wonders. My 9-yr-old at the time -- having dealt with his lovely grandfather -- lamented that we didn't move to China. :crying:

 

I had no clue that these people could turn on the kids. I should have known: they turned on me of course but I just assumed it was because I wasn't pretty, slim, smart enough. (That's what they peddled at least.) These people brainwash kids and need to be kept far away from them.

 

They will pick one kid to be the scapegoat and the other kid to be the golden child. While it often looks like the golden child has it great, in the long run, they turn into zombies. The scapegoat has a chance of making adult-life wonderful. (If they live far, far away from the bad guys.)

 

Alley

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I really, really don't agree with the suggestion that these people have a mental disorder and that we need to feel bad for them because they don't realize what they're doing. Sorry, feel bad for them?  It took me years to realize that I was being verbally and emotionally abused because the person's narcissism.

 

It's selfishness and self-centeredness on steroids. It's a major character flaw.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I've given up on whether they're "mental" or "character flawed." I just know that they're vile -- and destroy lives.

 

A virtual hug to you, Fifiruth: you survived. (And we'll never know how many suicides and drug/alcohol addictions are triggered from years of dealing w/ this kind of abuse. Because often those who lived w/ it can't name it or put words to it. It's easy to think, "but I'm the problem -- not them." Wrong times 5,000 billion. They. are. the. problem. A really bad problem.)

 

Alley

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I disagree. It's a major mental illness that manifests as a character flaw. Subtle difference.

 

That does not excuse the behavior, only explains some of it. And I fully believe there are measures that people with the disorder can learn to make them socially acceptable. And meds can help. So they are still responsible to play the hand dealt to them--but someone has to teach them the game. That's a therapist's job, not a family's job. (And by game, I mean LIFE.)

 

Just my opinion.

 

So sorry you have to deal with the crap, OP.

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I disagree. It's a major mental illness that manifests as a character flaw. Subtle difference.

 

That does not excuse the behavior, only explains some of it. And I fully believe there are measures that people with the disorder can learn to make them socially acceptable. And meds can help. So they are still responsible to play the hand dealt to them--but someone has to teach them the game. That's a therapist's job, not a family's job. (And by game, I mean LIFE.)

 

Just my opinion.

 

So sorry you have to deal with the crap, OP.

 

I happen to agree with you. I don't think these people have any more control than a person with rabies has. I think it's a mental illness. Definitely.

 

But therapists don't see people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They see their victims. My parents would never take medication, would never see a therapist, would never be "one down" to be taught how to play the game/life. (They're far too special to bother with a therapist. Please. Plus they have a ton of money. Probably way more than the therapist so why would they take advice from him/her??)

 

True NPD folks will not get help. (I'm hoping the future brings something we can crush into their morning coffee.)

 

Alley

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Yes, NPD and BPD are major mental disorders, but people afflicted with them are still responsible for their own behaviors. We're dealing with this as well right now with BIL and MIL and it's a misery. And yes Alicia64, it's especially sad when they turn on the child. DS is the non-favored grandchild and it's hurtful. The only thing we can do at this point, is set firm boundaries and limit exposure. It's no fun to attempt to explain to a 5 year old (at the time) why Grandma has lots of pictures of cousin but none of him in her home. 

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Yes, NPD and BPD are major mental disorders, but people afflicted with them are still responsible for their own behaviors. We're dealing with this as well right now with BIL and MIL and it's a misery. And yes Alicia64, it's especially sad when they turn on the child. DS is the non-favored grandchild and it's hurtful. The only thing we can do at this point, is set firm boundaries and limit exposure. It's no fun to attempt to explain to a 5 year old (at the time) why Grandma has lots of pictures of cousin but none of him in her home. 

 

It's so good to hear people "get it" because growing up my parents fooled people right and left. But, I have to be honest, I think it's very damaging for both the ignored child and the golden children.

 

Believe me, my sister was absolutely the golden child and her life -- while it looks just fine on the outside -- is anything but.

 

Alley

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I happen to agree with you. I don't think these people have any more control than a person with rabies has. I think it's a mental illness. Definitely.

 

But therapists don't see people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They see their victims. My parents would never take medication, would never see a therapist, would never be "one down" to be taught how to play the game/life. (They're far too special to bother with a therapist. Please. Plus they have a ton of money. Probably way more than the therapist so why would they take advice from him/her??)

 

True NPD folks will not get help. (I'm hoping the future brings something we can crush into their morning coffee.)

 

Nodding in agreement here.

 

Plus, someone with NPD would not go to therapy because they would never see that they have something wrong with themselves. They think everyone else is the problem (as well as being less intelligent, lazier, etc...). Why would they seek advice from any type of lesser being? (Lesser beings = everyone else.)

 

I deal with this (not officially diagnosed) in my family. Boundaries are so hard because NPDs (& others who are passive-aggressive) completely ignore the boundaries & then blame everyone else. I know the thing about the golden child too. My kids are the only grandkids in the family. One is treated like gold, the other like dirt.

 

Sorry you're dealing w/ it!

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I really, really don't agree with the suggestion that these people have a mental disorder and that we need to feel bad for them because they don't realize what they're doing. Sorry, feel bad for them?  It took me years to realize that I was being verbally and emotionally abused because the person's narcissism.

 

It's selfishness and self-centeredness on steroids. It's a major character flaw.

 

I don't know much about NPD, but as for the Borderline Personality Disorder mentioned in the title, most of the people who have that developed it as the result of severe childhood abuse.  (I was diagnosed with it at one point years ago, though it turns out I most likely don't have it after all.)    So while they might be difficult to be around, a little sympathy wouldn't go amiss, either.

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Yaaay, you!  Glad you navigated this to your satisfaction!  You rock!

 

 

What was the "really?!?!"  post about?  I hope about the nut job, not about the posts here.  :-)   

 

 

Success!  (to the degree that it can be called a success--yk there is always fallout after an explosion)

 

I was able to completely avoid the vortex.

 

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The "really"  post was the response to the line I drew in the sand.  LOL 

 

It's incredible...the level of delusion...

 

So while they might be difficult to be around, a little sympathy wouldn't go amiss, either.

 

Believe me.  No one can accuse me of not being sympathetic or patient.   But...I have my limits too.

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3,000  miles away has worked wonders. My 9-yr-old at the time -- having dealt with his lovely grandfather -- lamented that we didn't move to China. :crying:

 

I had no clue that these people could turn on the kids. I should have known: they turned on me of course but I just assumed it was because I wasn't pretty, slim, smart enough. (That's what they peddled at least.) These people brainwash kids and need to be kept far away from them.

 

They will pick one kid to be the scapegoat and the other kid to be the golden child. While it often looks like the golden child has it great, in the long run, they turn into zombies. The scapegoat has a chance of making adult-life wonderful. (If they live far, far away from the bad guys.)

 

Alley

 

as gilda radner entitled her autobiography - it's always something.  if it's not one thing, it WILL be another.  they just look for excuses, it doesn't matter what it is.  my sister would constantly engage in outrageous behavior - so I was blamed for it, because she was the victim/golden-child and the conundrum would have caused granny to implode.

 

they also will have a favored "victim" for them to rescue.  the golden child is NPD. the victim/golden child (who was the one with children's photos on prominent display.) is a total mess.  I was the scapegoat and figured out by the time I was 13 grandmamma was a vile witch - for which I *was* punished until her dying day.

 

and perversely - statistically it is the scapegoat who is most likely to make it out of there sane.

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The "really"  post was the response to the line I drew in the sand.  LOL 

 

It's incredible...the level of delusion...

 

Believe me.  No one can accuse me of not being sympathetic or patient.   But...I have my limits too.

 

I understand.  :grouphug:   My post was directed at those who were claiming these things aren't a mental illness.  There are moms on the board here with BPD, and claiming they choose to act like that when it's actually often the result of abuse can be very hurtful for them.  I totally understand that the people dealing with it need to vent.

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as gilda radner entitled her autobiography - it's always something.  if it's not one thing, it WILL be another.  they just look for excuses, it doesn't matter what it is.  my sister would constantly engage in outrageous behavior - so I was blamed for it, because she was the victim/golden-child and the conundrum would have caused granny to implode.

 

they also will have a favored "victim" for them to rescue.  the golden child is NPD. the victim/golden child (who was the one with children's photos on prominent display.) is a total mess.  I was the scapegoat and figured out by the time I was 13 grandmamma was a vile witch - for which I *was* punished until her dying day.

 

and perversely - statistically it is the scapegoat who is most likely to make it out of there sane.

 

Re: Gilda. Miss her! :lol:

 

Re: your second paragraph. I will admit that I feel badly for golden children. I remember my sister being a sweetheart as a toddler and she turned. It seems to me that the Creatures from the Black Lagoon got her. :crying:

 

Re: your last sentence. I know! Isn't that the most ironic thing?!

 

Alley

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As the scapegoat of an NPD mother, my sympathy for her alleged abuse as a child ended the day she put her status in the community over my health and well-being. 

 

My sympathy for my NPD EX ended the day he calmly and cooly informed me in front of my kids that he'd dismember me and bury me in the back yard. 

 

At some point, what happened to make someone NPD no longer matters. Living with someone with NPD is a living, hellish nightmare on earth and sympathy is a waste of time and a risky emotion if it keeps someone from getting away from the NPD person. 

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As the scapegoat of an NPD mother, my sympathy for her alleged abuse as a child ended the day she put her status in the community over my health and well-being. 

 

My sympathy for my NPD EX ended the day he calmly and cooly informed me in front of my kids that he'd dismember me and bury me in the back yard. 

 

At some point, what happened to make someone NPD no longer matters. Living with someone with NPD is a living, hellish nightmare on earth and sympathy is a waste of time and a risky emotion if it keeps someone from getting away from the NPD person. 

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at my earlier post, but NPD and BPD are completely different disorders.

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so much rings so true.

 

i am married to the scapegoat.  his wife (me) and children are scapegoats as a result.  he is the only one from his family of origin not on anti depressants, and the only one still married.  his dear mom has dozens of pictures of his siblings and their children, and one of us.  oh well.

 

during the recent move to a retirement home, dmil told each of the children and grandchildren that they should choose some things to have from her house.  all went swimmingly well until it came to us.  she would ask one of us, we would make the mistake of asking and she would say, "oh no, that's too special".  in the end, i suggested she choose something she'd like us to have, and she couldn't.  oh well.  

 

if i had a dollar for every time i've said, "just because someone doesn't love you the way you need, doesn't mean they don't love you the best they can".... i'd be a millionaire.

 

fwiw,

ann

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It might not be appreciated at the moment, but I feel sorry for them. They have medical conditions that make them unpleasant to be around and they probably don't even know it because their world feels so normal.

 

I think this is true in some cases.  I also think some people just like to be egotistical jerks.

 

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if i had a dollar for every time i've said, "just because someone doesn't love you the way you need, doesn't mean they don't love you the best they can".... i'd be a millionaire.

 

fwiw,

ann

 

my mother used to make those excuses for her mother, and tell me that her mother really did love me.  it made me angry. if this is how someone who supposedly "loves me" treats me, then I must not be worthy of love that makes you feel good inside.    her mother didn't love anyone.  why is irrelevant - the point is she damaged her daughter, her own husband, and her grandchildren.  she also loathed my father and I wasn't even allowed to grieve his death.  being told this woman really did love me, made me feel worse than it would have if she'd just admitted her mother was a witch and didn't love anyone.  

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Unless a person has an official diagnosis, I don't think using self-determined diagnostic labels in conversation is helpful. NPD and BPD are psychological disorders with specific diagnostic criteria. If there is a need to discuss harmful behaviors in undiagnosed family members, a description of the behavior is more appropriate than the application of a label which may no be accurate at all.

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This might help you because it sure helps me:

 

My ex boyfriend is not human.

 

No, I'm serious; my definition of "human" is a being that is capable of empathy and compassion.

Ex boyfriend is not capable of empathy and compassion.

Therefore, my ex-boyfriend is not human.

I neither hate him nor feel sorry for him, I just hope I never have to deal with him or anyone like him ever again, kind of like how I feel about the Loma Prieta earthquake.

 

It wouldn't do me any good to feel sorry for earthquakes or hate them either, would it?

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Unless a person has an official diagnosis, I don't think using self-determined diagnostic labels in conversation is helpful. NPD and BPD are psychological disorders with specific diagnostic criteria. If there is a need to discuss harmful behaviors in undiagnosed family members, a description of the behavior is more appropriate than the application of a label which may no be accurate at all.

 

For children who grew up with the NPD insanity it's extremely healing to finally find a name for the crazy mean behavior they've been subjected to all their lives. And then to find the cluster of behavior that goes along with it is even better. I was a sad -- but wonderful - aha! moment when I read the NPD criteria. I said to myself (finally because it took years to sink in) ". . . so. . . I'm not crazy?"

 

The brainwashing from these people is intense.

 

And good luck getting these people into a therapist to be properly diagnosed. (And don't get me started on a couple of therapists I knew who were downright narcissistic themselves -- although to what degree I don't know.)

 

Also, when I talk to dh I don't say, "I'm sneezing, can't think straight and didn't sleep well last night because of all the coughing." He'd say, "you mean you have a cold."

 

We name things and there's nothing wrong with it given that NPD people won't get diagnosed anyway. Once you know the behavior it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the person has NPD. Once you know what to look for their tell-tale signs are obvious.

 

Alley

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For children who grew up with the NPD insanity it's extremely healing to finally find a name for the crazy mean behavior they've been subjected to all their lives. And then to find the cluster of behavior that goes along with it is even better. I was a sad -- but wonderful - aha! moment when I read the NPD criteria. I said to myself (finally because it took years to sink in) ". . . so. . . I'm not crazy?"

 

The brainwashing from these people is intense.

 

And good luck getting these people into a therapist to be properly diagnosed. (And don't get me started on a couple of therapists I knew who were downright narcissistic themselves -- although to what degree I don't know.)

 

Also, when I talk to dh I don't say, "I'm sneezing, can't think straight and didn't sleep well last night because of all the coughing." He'd say, "you mean you have a cold."

 

We name things and there's nothing wrong with it given that NPD people won't get diagnosed anyway. Once you know the behavior it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the person has NPD. Once you know what to look for their tell-tale signs are obvious.

 

Alley

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

those who didn't grow up with this - just cannot understand how deep the brainwashing is, or how utterly devastating it can be.  Pavlov's dog level brainwashing.  you don't even realize you have been brainwashed because you don't know any different.  you do come to think you are crazy - because if you ever object, it is turned around on you. they are very good at playing to the audience, who is usually clueless.  from the time you are a defenseless small child.

 

even dh used to think I was just "oversensitive". I honestly don't remember what she did - because it was so utterly typical everyday kind of behavior for her - but I do remember the stunned look on his face as he said "I take it all back.  she's as bad as you say."

 

I remember my "ah ha" moment. it was so enlightening.  when I started this road to understanding and healing, I literally felt as though someone had cut off a ball and chain from around my ankle.  then I was introduced to NPD and sites that had information on it - and it was "wow, this is absolutely her".  check, check, check. It was staggering at the level of explanation and understanding while reading through those blogs and descriptions.  I wasn't crazy after all.

 

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I'm maxing out my "like" quota here.

 

For years, I didn't have have proper words for feelings and had a lot of trouble identifying what I felt. I still go through periods of confusion and often wonder if I'm feeling the "correct" feeling. I realise now it's the result of being dehumanised throughout my childhood.

 

I was the Scapegoat. Whipping Girl, I used to call it. My sister was the Golden Child. It's only too true, what the others have said here, even the outcome!

 

To the OP, if you can, walk away. Actually, run! There is no solution. This article just popped up in my mail box. It's simplistic, but the bottom line is the same.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-caretaking-the-borderline-or-narcissist/201407/how-stop-getting-bullied

 

:grouphug:

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my mother used to make those excuses for her mother, and tell me that her mother really did love me.  it made me angry. if this is how someone who supposedly "loves me" treats me, then I must not be worthy of love that makes you feel good inside.    her mother didn't love anyone.  why is irrelevant - the point is she damaged her daughter, her own husband, and her grandchildren.  she also loathed my father and I wasn't even allowed to grieve his death.  being told this woman really did love me, made me feel worse than it would have if she'd just admitted her mother was a witch and didn't love anyone.  

 

we don't make excuses for her.... ever.  the dc have had the info since they could talk.  it was necessary.  but every once in a while, we see glimpses of who she could have been; i would love to know that person.  

 

fortunately, they also have a grandmother who is a loving grandma.... and that has really helped them be clear that the issue isn't them.  

 

we also say "we are kind because of who we are, not because of who she is".  

 

and we visit for 24 hours once a year.  because that's about all we can manage.  it changes who dh is for weeks afterwards.  the programming really is deep.

 

we are getting one of our dc ready for camp.  dh said tonight how camp was always such a relief for both him and his mom. 

 

i am so sad that so many here have had that experience.

 

ann

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Wow, I really cannot read more of this thread.

 

WTM forum is all about supporting those who have children with various physical and mental disabilities. If I was to swap the words: NPD or BPD for autistic imagine the blow out you would all have!

 

Have any of you ever actually read up why someone who has BPD reacts the way they do?

It is actually the way their brain operates...physiologically there are messed up operations. Certain parts of the brain shutdown while other part fire up more, it is an actual PHYSICAL Problem. 

 

Most parents who have adopted should be VERY aware of 'attachment disorder'...this may surprise many of those on this thread but this disorder generally slides into BPD as they get older, unless they have significant help growing up. This was the case with me: I had severe attachment disorder as a result of adoption. It was not treated and as an adult my personality, the real me is often not there because I have borderline symptoms that take over.  

I am so hurt and upset about this thread. The same people who are judging and wagging their fingers in this thread are the same ones who support the mothers elsewhere with children who have disorders like attachment disorder etc....these kids become adult oneday...and it appears that according to public opinion when you become an adult with a disorder you no longer qualify for support or kindness.

 

Face the facts: if your parents are this way inclined then most likely they have had some MAJOR incident growing up that caused their behaviour to be like this.  

 

My mother is NPD and I found out recently she was raped as a child.   All my finger wagging stopped and I started to weep inside thinking of what she has had to endure. 

People all around are carrying burdens that are hidden. Those of us that suffer from BPD tendencies HATE who we are because the days when everything falls apart is not the days we are actually ourselves. We become a monster. A monster completely taken over by something that we cannot control. 

 

But feel free to sit in your judging seat. The tone, title and jabs in this thread are despicable and I hope that this thread gets shut down by the moderators. Remember there are REAL people around these forums who suffer from these REAL problems. But thank you for stabbing all of us who suffer from personality disorders in the back.  Thank you for calling us "nutjobs."

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