Hoot Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I've never read any Dawkins, and I'm interested in learning more but don't know where to start. What is the best book to begin with and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Richard Dawkins? Just want to be sure we're talking about the same Dawkins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 We have The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True which is at a middle-school reading level, and The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution which is at an adult reading level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Is it Dawkins you want to read, or just the subject in general? Because I find Dawkins a bit difficult when he goes into such scientific detail. The God Delusion is worth reading, but it took me 2 tries to get through it. I would recommend starting with either The God Virus or God is Not Great, neither of which are by Dawkins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I agree. I really did not like the Greatest show on earth. Though I have read very favourable reviews of The Selfish Gene. So you may want to try that. Is there any particular subject you wish to explore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I eventually liked The God Delusion, although like Lady Florida it took me a couple of tries to get through it. It's not an easy read. If you're just looking for the subject and not the author, specifically, I'd recommend The End of Faith. by Sam Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 dh asks evolution or atheism? his favourite is the selfish gene, followed by the Greatest Show on Earth. the greatest show lays out all the evidence for evolution, whereas the selfish gene is just one part of it. jerry coyne's "why evolution is true" is excellent. we haven't read any of the atheism books... hth, ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yeah, I agree with pp -- Dawkins' provocative style impedes his substance, to the point that he's really only preaching to the choir (and I say that as someone who largely accepts his substance in his original realm of science, though less so as he wanders into territory better served by psychology and sociology). Without knowing what areas you'd like to explore -- the book that propelled his original explosion onto the public scene 35+ years ago was The Selfish Gene, on evolution, which did not cover new ground so much as frame existing biology into a strikingly accessible (metaphoric) framework: that genes of all life forms "want" immortality (if you've ever grown annual flowers, and deadheaded them so they'll keep on blooming all summer, that's the gist of the metaphor -- those plants may not have brains, they may not have souls, but they are determined that their seeds hit the ground...). Alternatives on evolution might include Edward O Wilson; I also enjoyed Jared Diamond's The Third Chimpanzee which is maybe a bit more accessible. The God Delusion, published in the early 2000s, was Dawkins' frontal confrontation with religion generally, which he began ten years prior with The Blind Watchmaker, in which he confronted the analytical framework / procedure of intelligent design specifically. Both of these are so in-your-face condescending that they are, imho, very unlkiely to reach anyone who doesn't already fully agree with him. (He's kind of the Rush Limbaugh / Michael Moore of the science realm.) Sam Harris might be a calmer alternative to explore these areas. In the last couple of years Dawkins has written a several books, at least one of which aimed at older children, about the wonder and joy and transcendence of the natural world, and the satisfactions of a life lived in science... perhaps he's mellowing... I haven't read any of these, but my brother-in-law, in whose judgment I wholly trust, recommended The Magic of Reality: How Do We Know What's Really True rather highly. Have fun reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I prefer listening to Dawkins read his books than reading them myself. Reading his books takes me a lot longer to get into his rhythm. The Magic of Reality is simple and quick to get through. I haven't read The Greatest Show. It's on my list with Coyne's book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I agree with Pam about The God Delusion being in your face. I loved it! I was already past my Catholic, Pagan, New Age stages though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I prefer listening to Dawkins read his books than reading them myself. Reading his books takes me a lot longer to get into his rhythm. Yes! I said that it took me two tries to get through The God Delusion, but neglected to mention that the second try was an audiobook. He and a woman whose name I don't remember alternated narrating it. It was much easier to listen to than to read. I too loved the in-your-face aspect of it, but like you I was finished exploring by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I like the Magic of Reality with kids. But I'll admit, I'm not a Dawkins fan, so that's all I have to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yes! I said that it took me two tries to get through The God Delusion, but neglected to mention that the second try was an audiobook. He and a woman whose name I don't remember alternated narrating it. It was much easier to listen to than to read. It is probably his wife. She narrated The Magic of Reality with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I like The Blind Watchmaker and The Greatest Show on Earth. The God Delusion is gratuitously obnoxious, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I thought The God Delusion was kind of dumb. All his best arguments he gets off the internet. So you might as well read the internet. And the internet isn't as obnoxious. I'm no poster child for theism, btw -- I just thought the book wasn't all that well written in terms of presenting an argument and supporting it. It depended more on obnoxiousness to support his points. That's my recollection, anyway. The Selfish Gene was pretty interesting -- but I read it near to when it first came out. It might not be so ground breaking now. And the last chapter on memes was Dawkins going on about how smart he was, as I recall. The best thing to come out of that chapter was the coining of that word (if he did, in fact, do the coining. the internet tells me he did, but I'm always skeptical). It's not really used in the way he defined it, though. I believe this is his current wife, btw: http://gladrappa.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/ward11.jpg Dr. Who fans probably already all know this, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delirium Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The Selfish Gene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It is probably his wife. She narrated The Magic of Reality with him. Oh, it is! I just looked her up. Her name is Lalla Ward. She was Romana, the fourth doctor's companion, and was briefly married to Tom Baker after they met on the set. She was also good friends with Douglas Adams, who introduced her to Richard Dawkins at a party. There's my "learned something new" for today. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I thought The God Delusion was kind of dumb. All his best arguments he gets off the internet. So you might as well read the internet. And the internet isn't as obnoxious. I'm no poster child for theism, btw -- I just thought the book wasn't all that well written in terms of presenting an argument and supporting it. It depended more on obnoxiousness to support his points. That's my recollection, anyway. Well, since he's an evolutionary biologist, I doubt he got most of the book's arguments "off the internet". I'm not saying they can't be found online, just that the implication he pulled stuff from the internet doesn't make sense, given his educational and science background. When I tried reading the book, I found it boring. When I listened to it, it was more accessible. I didn't find either version (written or spoken) to be obnoxious. Dawkins is rather soft spoken, if you've ever heard him, and he read it in an easy to listen to manner. I accidentally cut out the bottom part of your quote, but I do agree that he likes to toot his own horn too much and remind people of how brilliant he is. He is extremely intelligent, but it gets annoying to hear anyone frequently remind us little people of "my awesomeness". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I read The God Delusion at a point when I was agnostic. His book finally convinced me to fully embrace atheism. Dawkins is in your face but in a calm way and in a matter of fact way. I appreciate his style. But, yes, it depends on what subject you want to read about before you choose a book he has written. You could also watch youtube videos of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lailasmum Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Oh, it is! I just looked her up. Her name is Lalla Ward. She was Romana, the fourth doctor's companion, and was briefly married to Tom Baker after they met on the set. She was also good friends with Douglas Adams, who introduced her to Richard Dawkins at a party. There's my "learned something new" for today. :D My husband is a massive Dr Who fan and has met her a few times, he was so chuffed when he heard her on the audio book of The Magic of Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoot Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Richard Dawkins? Just want to be sure we're talking about the same Dawkins. Yep, that's the one. :) Is it Dawkins you want to read, or just the subject in general? Because I find Dawkins a bit difficult when he goes into such scientific detail. The God Delusion is worth reading, but it took me 2 tries to get through it. I would recommend starting with either The God Virus or God is Not Great, neither of which are by Dawkins. A little of both, I guess. In my forays into atheism I'm running into a lot of "Dawkins says..." and "according to Dawkins..." and I keep thinking, "I don't even know who this guy is and I want to see for myself what he's all about." But I'm also interested in anything related as well. I'll look into both of those suggestions. They look good. I agree. I really did not like the Greatest show on earth. Though I have read very favourable reviews of The Selfish Gene. So you may want to try that. Is there any particular subject you wish to explore? Atheism is where I want to start. dh asks evolution or atheism? Both, eventually, though right now I would say atheism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I like Carl Sagan. I am someone who should be a big fan off Dawkins but I find him OTT patronizing. He is supposed to be a science educator of the public, but mostly he just tries to bludgeon people with his cleverness. I don't see how that is educational. Here is Neil Degrasse Tyson attempting an intervention with Dawkins, but it went nowhere. Warning: there is an f-bomb right at the very tail end of the video http://youtu.be/Dxff0k_TEzI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoot Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I like Carl Sagan. I am someone who should be a big fan off Dawkins but I find him OTT patronizing. He is supposed to be a science educator of the public, but mostly he just tries to bludgeon people with his cleverness. I don't see how that is educational. Here is Neil Degrasse Tyson attempting an intervention with Dawkins, but it went nowhere. Warning: there is an f-bomb right at the very tail end of the video http://youtu.be/Dxff0k_TEzI :smilielol5: See, I haven't read anything by him yet, and that is only the second time I've heard him speak, but my gosh, that voice and that wit makes me want to love him. He seems sharp and blunt in a way I would appreciate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I have to agree. One thing that has led me away from some religions is the antagonizing and self-righteousness. I much prefer NDT's style. And Dawkins puts me off for other reasons. I hope this doesn't turn into a big argument. I just want to say that Dawkins is not the only skeptic voice or face out there, though he's one of the loudest. If you're researching, make sure you read more than just his stuff. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoot Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I have to agree. One thing that has led me away from some religions is the antagonizing and self-righteousness. I much prefer NDT's style. And Dawkins puts me off for other reasons. I hope this doesn't turn into a big argument. I just want to say that Dawkins is not the only skeptic voice or face out there, though he's one of the loudest. If you're researching, make sure you read more than just his stuff. :) Oh absolutely. The antagonizing and self-righteousness bugs the crap out of me. I "liked" a page on Facebook awhile back thinking that it was all about discussing the illogical nature of Christianity, but in reality they just bash and call names. It drives me crazy. I have tons of different authors on my "to read" list. I just keep running in to Dawkins this and Dawkins that and wanted to see what he was all about. Maybe I should start with some of his audio lectures first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Dawkins and Hitchens are passionate about how religion damages the world. NDT is passionate about science being taught accurately and keeping religion out of the classroom. If you're looking for talks on the illogical nature of christianity, you want to look for those that were drenched in christianity growing up such as Matt Dillahunty and Seth Andrews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Here's Dawkins TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoJyONmcGbM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemiSweet Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm still working on The God Delusion (I'm not an audio learner and can't do books on tape) but I really enjoyed God is Not Great, even though Hictchens may be a tad antagonistic. I am quite well established in my atheism at this point though fwiw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just want to second the recommendation for Sam Harris. Plus, he's good looking. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just want to second the recommendation for Sam Harris. Plus, he's good looking. ;) He IS. I forgot about that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 That video is great! "Articulately barbed" has got to be one of the best phrases ever! :smilielol5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 He IS. I forgot about that part. How does one forget that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Every time NDT opens his mouth I am reminded of why I love the guy. So much more class than Dawkins. I like Carl Sagan. I am someone who should be a big fan off Dawkins but I find him OTT patronizing. He is supposed to be a science educator of the public, but mostly he just tries to bludgeon people with his cleverness. I don't see how that is educational. Here is Neil Degrasse Tyson attempting an intervention with Dawkins, but it went nowhere. Warning: there is an f-bomb right at the very tail end of the video http://youtu.be/Dxff0k_TEzI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Every time NDT opens his mouth I am reminded of why I love the guy. So much more class than Dawkins. Oh my gosh, Yes! NDT is awesome!! He has a gift for explaining complex science simply. I love his StarTalk podcast and Cosmos is just amazing. I've watched so many of his talks and interviews on youtube. He seems like such a friendly, approachable person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 NDT is great for science, but he's wimpy on atheism. The OP wants to explore non-belief, so NDT won't help there. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 NDT takes a stance like Stephen Hawking. He simply stays out of the religious debate/conversation. Dawkins does not. He jumps completely in the deep end of the religion debate and doesn't pussyfoot around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 NDT is great for science, but he's wimpy on atheism. The OP wants to explore non-belief, so NDT won't help there. :) I believe he's agnostic, which of course isn't exactly atheism or theism. But it would be nice to see more atheism figureheads that were as charming as NDT. Really, we just need to clone him. I think that will do. I have a bit of a science crush on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoot Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Last night I bought The Magic of Reality on Audible and I picked up The Blind Watchmaker from the library. I've listened to several chapters of The Magic of Reality already, and I love it. I kind of don't get the point of the dual reading with his wife though; she's superfluous at best and really doesn't add anything at all to the experience. I would have preferred that Dawkins read the whole thing himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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