Children being bussed across border illegally. Heard of this?

[myfunnybunch]

http://kctv7.com/michele-bachmann-suggests-labor-camps-for-immigrant-children/

 

zomg! This lady..she wants to put the kids in camps and raise them to be good Americans by raising them in camps and making them go to school and hold jobs while they're not in school to payfor their own upbringing and learn the American values.

 

I get that she's probably talking about only the teenage ones. I know that many teenagers have afterschool jobs. I know it's probably better than sending them back, and nobody else can pay for their upbringing. But doesn't this translate to slavery, working for free, to pay off a debt they're not old enough to incur?

 

:crying:

 

To pre-pay a debt, no less.

 

The thing is, I am sure that many of these young people would be grateful for education and a job. Surely there's got to be a better way to go about it than labor camps.

 

The openly expressed goal of "assimilation" makes me want to barf. I can't copy and paste for some reason, but the line about raising fifty thousand God-fearing English-speaking Americans was horrifying to me.

 

Cat

[Mrs Mungo]

But, we can't defeat the gangs and drug cartels in our own country. What makes you think we can do that in Central America?

Plus, it sort of assumes we haven't been fighting the gangs and drug cartels in the region. We have.

[Caroline]

Plus, it sort of assumes we haven't been fighting the gangs and drug cartels in the region. We have.

 

Yes.

[Murphy101]

:crying:

 

To pre-pay a debt, no less.

 

The thing is, I am sure that many of these young people would be grateful for education and a job. Surely there's got to be a better way to go about it than labor camps.

 

The openly expressed goal of "assimilation" makes me want to barf. I can't copy and paste for some reason, but the line about raising fifty thousand God-fearing English-speaking Americans was horrifying to me.

 

Cat

I didn't read the article. Not interested in detention camps. However I'm responding to your post.

 

Why? I can understand the god-fearing part, but why would raising English speaking Americans be horrifying? English is the common language here, if sent to public schools, they will learn it. If sent to foster homes, they will learn it. Learning English will enable them to literally have more say and understanding in their lives while living in America. When one literally send their children alone to another nation to be raised by that nations, I think it rather unreasonable to expect them to be NOT become Americans or Americanized.

 

And I mentioned several pages back..

 

This can be a gift. We are literally being given the children of another nation to raise. We can raise them to be allies or enemies. It'd be stupid to raise them to be enemies. So yes, most certainly I think it wise to treat them decently and to encourage them to ally themselves to America. To raise our children with a brotherhood tie to countries to the south of us is most certainly going to benefit the next generation and quite possibly many generations to come.

[myfunnybunch]

Why? I can understand the god-fearing part, but why would raising English speaking Americans be horrifying?

 

 It's not the "English-speaking" alone that horrifies me. I think you need to read the article and that particular phrase in the article. It's the context and subtext.

 

As calandalsmom pointed out, it's akin to the Indian schools all over. It's about assimilation, not education. If the stated goals were simply to educate the kids, including teaching the English language, and to find them meaningful employment, then I probably would not have had such a visceral reaction.

 

Cat

[myfunnybunch]

This can be a gift. We are literally being given the children of another nation to raise. We can raise them to be allies or enemies. It'd be stupid to raise them to be enemies. So yes, most certainly I think it wise to treat them decently and to encourage them to ally themselves to America. To raise our children with a brotherhood tie to countries to the south of us is most certainly going to benefit the next generation and quite possibly many generations to come.

 

I forgot to respond to this. I wholeheartedly agree with the above.

 

AND I have some grave concerns about what it means to some groups to raise them to be Americans. I suspect that for many people advocating for raising God-fearing Americans in a work camp as a solution, this solution doesn't include helping the children maintain ties to the languages (Spanish and the Mayan languages still spoken in rural areas), culture, and religion (as these countries are predominantly Catholic, with a small percentage of Protestants and a smattering of the indigenous religions) with which they were raised.

 

Cat

 

 

[Murphy101]

It sounds the indian schools all over again. :cursing:

Yes that attitude towards Indians is alive and well still in our courts. Don't even get me started on CPS taking Indian kids and giving them to "good" families. Which always seem to be white rich folks. :x

 

Assimilation...

 

Hmmm. That's a whole other topic.

 

If by assimilation you mean accepting an American identity, I'm very pro that.

 

If by assimilation you mean acting more acceptable to rich white people, so the rich white people can feel more comfortable, then I'm very negative on that. Heck, I'm not for it for white folks either.

[*Lulu*]

 

This can be a gift. We are literally being given the children of another nation to raise. We can raise them to be allies or enemies. It'd be stupid to raise them to be enemies. So yes, most certainly I think it wise to treat them decently and to encourage them to ally themselves to America. To raise our children with a brotherhood tie to countries to the south of us is most certainly going to benefit the next generation and quite possibly many generations to come.

 

I just wanted to point out that this is what I don't understand about the people who are raising holy hell about this situation.

 

Be angry at the politicians and work to make changes to how our immigration policies are handled.

 

Be angry at the societal issues that drove these children across our borders and work on humanitarian efforts to see those conditions change.

 

But to direct that anger and frustration at these children? I just keep shaking my head and thinking, even if we as a nation are so glaringly ignorant of world history that we don't see any parallels, are we also completely ignorant of our OWN history?

 

Ugh.

 

And it isn't just those who are uneducated. I have degreed, (even post graduate degreed), family who are almost rabid about "those kids" wanting to summarily deport them.

 

The mind, it boggles.

[kiana]

And it isn't just those who are uneducated. I have degreed, (even post graduate degreed), family who are almost rabid about "those kids" wanting to summarily deport them.

 

The mind, it boggles.

 

Yeah, me too. Sigh.

[Ottakee]

Yes that attitude towards Indians is alive and well still in our courts. Don't even get me started on CPS taking Indian kids and giving them to "good" families. Which always seem to be white rich folks. :x

 

Assimilation...

 

Hmmm. That's a whole other topic.

 

If by assimilation you mean accepting an American identity, I'm very pro that.

 

If by assimilation you mean acting more acceptable to rich white people, so the rich white people can feel more comfortable, then I'm very negative on that. Heck, I'm not for it for white folks either.

 

If the Indian child is a tribal member it is illegal for CPS to take them and place them in a white home without tribal approval.  MIL is Native and was removed and put in boarding school years ago with her siblings.  Now that is not legal.  Dh is Native and I am part Native.  We have worked with ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act) and adopted through them.  We had to be Native to have our son (and later our girls) placed with us and the tribe had to approve ds's adoption------he is a distant relative of DH as they are from the same tribe and band.

 

My friends adopted an Inuit girl (Eskimo) and even though her birth parents voluntarily placed her with my friends the tribal court still had to approve the adoption and my friends had to go through more hoops as they are not Native.

 

One problem in our area is that there are VERY VERY few foster and adoptive homes that are Native.  We were the only ones in our entire county for many years.  That does make placing the Native kids that CPS does remove much harder to place in Native homes.

[Murphy101]

If the Indian child is a tribal member it is illegal for CPS to take them and place them in a white home without tribal approval. MIL is Native and was removed and put in boarding school years ago with her siblings. Now that is not legal. Dh is Native and I am part Native. We have worked with ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act) and adopted through them. We had to be Native to have our son (and later our girls) placed with us and the tribe had to approve ds's adoption------he is a distant relative of DH as they are from the same tribe and band.

 

My friends adopted an Inuit girl (Eskimo) and even though her birth parents voluntarily placed her with my friends the tribal court still had to approve the adoption and my friends had to go through more hoops as they are not Native.

 

One problem in our area is that there are VERY VERY few foster and adoptive homes that are Native. We were the only ones in our entire county for many years. That does make placing the Native kids that CPS does remove much harder to place in Native homes.

CPS and high dollar adoption agencies don't seem to be paying much heed to that.

 

I can think of no less than 3 cases of fathers being denied their children in the CPS system bc a white family wants to adopt the child. And CPS refusing to hand the children over to the native system/families.

 

I'm aware of the law. The agencies are aware of the law. The law is being discarded for the "good of the child".

[Ravin]

I just finished reading this whole thread. Kind of wish I'd jumped in sooner.

 

I actually think the present immigration system should be altogether scrapped. The only people who should be barred from entering the U.S. are those with violent/dangerous criminal records and, perhaps, those with untreatable communicable diseases. If we properly structured our tax system social service programs could be paid for without undue burden on the middle class or the poor.

 

For young people coming in the short term, a service program could solve the issue. Something like Americorps. They receive an education, then work for three to five years and earn their citizenship upon successful completion of the program.

 

I also think the War on Drugs should be dismantled, starting by decriminalization of drug addiction. We could knock the primary monetary fuel of the cartels out from under them.

[La Texican]

I used to think ending our war would stop the cartel violence by taking away their money until someone (I think here) pointed out that criminals aren't going to quit being criminals and get a real job just because they lose their drug trade (and the most we'd ever legalize here is pot, not the harder drugs anyway). That's when I got to thinking we're looking at this like it's modern, drug cartels and gangs, but it's really an old story of violence, power, military vs. military within the same country. It existed in many nations before modern drugs, or whatever the gangs are calling themselves now. I wonder what this struggle would look like without the drug money, but I'm no longer convinced that it wouldn't exist without the drug money. Maybe it would weaken them. Maybe they would still continue the kidnappings and violent executions. How did criminals get their money before drugs? Maybe sex trafficking and robberies?

[Valley Girl]

 

I actually think the present immigration system should be altogether scrapped. The only people who should be barred from entering the U.S. are those with violent/dangerous criminal records and, perhaps, those with untreatable communicable diseases. If we properly structured our tax system social service programs could be paid for without undue burden on the middle class or the poor.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence. I don't think we want people coming from anywhere with the EXPECTATION of accessing social service programs. That would be unsustainable. If people want to bring their talents and skills and contribute, great. That's what built this country. And we could probably handle a limited number people who in the short term, at least, would need help. But I don't see that throwing open the doors and saying "come even if you can't support yourself" would be anything but a recipe for disaster for everyone. There will always be people who need help. And we absolutely should help. But we just can't take everyone who may want to come. That's not heartless, just realistic.

 

As far as untreatable serious communicable diseases, that's another reason to get the immigration system under control. In a different thread, people were discussing closing borders and testing airplane passengers because of the fear of the ebola virus spreading. An unchecked border poses the potential for just that kind of thing or worse.

[Ravin]

If we removed the incentive to cross the border illegally for people looking for work and a better life, border patrol would be able to actually focus on keeping out dangerous people/diseases. The work seekers will cross at proper crossings.

[Ravin]

Another point: being allowed to come here and qualifying for social benefits aren't necessarily synonymous. Some things, such as basic health care, it is in the public interest to provide. Others, such as social security, might require having lived and worked here for a certain number of years to qualify.

[Sharpie]

http://kctv7.com/michele-bachmann-suggests-labor-camps-for-immigrant-children/

 

zomg! This lady..she wants to put the kids in camps and raise them to be good Americans by raising them in camps and making them go to school and hold jobs while they're not in school to payfor their own upbringing and learn the American values.

 

I get that she's probably talking about only the teenage ones. I know that many teenagers have afterschool jobs. I know it's probably better than sending them back, and nobody else can pay for their upbringing. But doesn't this translate to slavery, working for free, to pay off a debt they're not old enough to incur?

 

The news site KCTV7 News is a parody.

[kiana]

Another point: being allowed to come here and qualifying for social benefits aren't necessarily synonymous. Some things, such as basic health care, it is in the public interest to provide. Others, such as social security, might require having lived and worked here for a certain number of years to qualify.

 

As long as we modify it so that things like social security require x years of living and working here I'm 100% for. This would allow us to assume that someone trying to slip across the border was someone we *really* didn't want here for whatever reason.

[QueenCat]

As long as we modify it so that things like social security require x years of living and working here I'm 100% for. This would allow us to assume that someone trying to slip across the border was someone we *really* didn't want here for whatever reason.

 

Social security already requires a minimum amount of work to qualify. People born after 1929 need to work TEN full years to qualify for social security, unless they are getting benefits through their spouse's benefits.

[Mrs Mungo]

If the Indian child is a tribal member it is illegal for CPS to take them and place them in a white home without tribal approval.

 

One, this only applies to federally recognized tribes. Two, many states ignore this law and/or find workarounds and/or tell the moms to lie to keep the fathers out of the picture.

[Ohdanigirl]

I am going to snip quotes but wanted it to be clear whim or what I was responding. Please forgive the typos, I am on my Ipad and sitting in a dark room.

 

Thank you ohdanigirl for explaining that the Mexican military helping the local police does not represent the level of crisis it would have meant in the US. I didn't know it was common practice there. Your answer has made me less concerned than I've been for a couple years, thinking that I'm sitting here watching a modern Civil War brewing that nobody's taking seriously.

 

I am glad you found my post helpful. I hope, though, that nobody takes this to mean that Mexico is 100% safe. There are still many dangers to traveling in Mexico. Obviously, you could say this about travel to any country, but Mexico has it's unique troubles. Cartels, corruption, etc. yes, soldiers help local and state police with things that the US Military wouldn't be taking on, but some cases are more serious than others. It's simply a logical and easier step to take in Mexico. No, not quite a civil War. I know it has been described as such in the news, though.

 

 

Plus, it sort of assumes we haven't been fighting the gangs and drug cartels in the region. We have.

  

I wonder how much attention is being paid to the success of Colombia. It is a country that has come very far and seems to be a good candidate for a case study. Is the current US fight against drugs/cartels being affected by how things have progressed in Colombia? I know there are some great differences, but it seems to me it isn't just about passing laws and throwing money at the problem

 

...... why would raising English speaking Americans be horrifying? English is the common language here......I think it rather unreasonable to expect them to be NOT become Americans or Americanized.

  

 

I think if children are going to be allowed to stay here, it would best that they become "Americanized". But who is charged with doing this? The parents? Schools? As a Latina, I'd say this is an unspoken problem within our community. Many parents want the American dream, but don't want their children to become too American. Whatever that means to them. Or they think they do, but then are upset with their kids when they act too much like American teenagers. I often find myself juggling the too identities. Sometimes there is a good mix, but sometimes I feel like there are two distinct people living within me. Maybe it is because I am back and forth between the two countries, but I have two faces I have to present depending on who I am with.

 

As far as schools go, good luck. Many schools no longer say The Pledge of Allegiance. My oldest two started school this year, after living all their lives in Mexico. They were both shocked to find themselves among the only kids who knew the National Anthem, any patriotic poems, the Presidents or at least the last five, and why the flag has the number of stripes it does. I can't speak for all latin American countries, but Mexico really drives patriotism home in the schools. So much so, that many Mexicans in the US pass it on to their dc. I don't know how to explain it, but patriotism in Mexico is HUGE.

 

  

I used to think ending our war would stop the cartel violence by taking away their money until someone (I think here) pointed out that criminals aren't going to quit being criminals and get a real job just because they lose their drug trade (and the most we'd ever legalize here is pot, not the harder drugs anyway). That's when I got to thinking we're looking at this like it's modern, drug cartels and gangs, but it's really an old story of violence, power, military vs. military within the same country. It existed in many nations before modern drugs, or whatever the gangs are calling themselves now. I wonder what this struggle would look like without the drug money, but I'm no longer convinced that it wouldn't exist without the drug money. Maybe it would weaken them. Maybe they would still continue the kidnappings and violent executions. How did criminals get their money before drugs? Maybe sex trafficking and robberies?

This is a very good point. I don't think that anyone would disagree that cartels have indeed branched out. I don't think it would simply cease to exist without drug money. People get used yon"easy" money and want to continue on that path. I also think the younger generation is beginning to idolize cartels. This paired with the loss of empathy and openness to violence seems to be feeding the growth of cartels. I hope, for the sake of future generations, that something changes soon.

[Katy]

Us too. Ours is not max kids, but we are on a well. Nevermind we have a reverse osmosis whole house filtration system so our water is safer than the city AND city water is 8 miles away and no money in the county coffers to run pipes down here...you have a well, you cannot foster parent.

 

The stupid thing is, it is the county health department's bias. It's not a state regulation. If we were four miles further east across the county line, we could foster in that county. This is the kind of bureaucratic crap that keeps people from helping. My nephew and his wife, NOT baby or little kid people by any stretch but really great with teens, heard about a boy in their community who was living in a group home after his parents were killed in a car wreck and had no relatives to take him in...4.0 student, 16 years old, hoping to attend GW in D.C. or other competitive school. The kids had all kinds of references, just needed a place to call home and someone to help him finish school, off to college, and on with life. They really wanted to bring this boy home. 2 bed 2bath apartment .... nope, can't foster parent in their county if you live in an apartment.

 

Staggers.the.imagination!

 

Faith, have you tried lobbying your county commissioner (or whatever your county's representative in your area is)?  This seems like the kind of rule that would be easy to change.

[chiguirre]

 

I wonder how much attention is being paid to the success of Colombia. It is a country that has come very far and seems to be a good candidate for a case study. Is the current US fight against drugs/cartels being affected by how things have progressed in Colombia? I know there are some great differences, but it seems to me it isn't just about passing laws and throwing money at the problem

 

 

 

I agree. The problem is that every time we win the war on drugs in one place, it pops up in another. So Colombia is much more stable, and Mexico is struggling. If Mexico starts to do better, El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras will do worse. My major hope is that legalizing marijuana will reduce illegal drug demand enough to undermine the power of the cartels.

[QueenCat]

 

As far as schools go, good luck. Many schools no longer say The Pledge of Allegiance. My oldest two started school this year, after living all their lives in Mexico. They were both shocked to find themselves among the only kids who knew the National Anthem, any patriotic poems, the Presidents or at least the last five, and why the flag has the number of stripes it does. I can't speak for all latin American countries, but Mexico really drives patriotism home in the schools. So much so, that many Mexicans in the US pass it on to their dc. I don't know how to explain it, but patriotism in Mexico is HUGE.

 

 

 

I see people post rather frequently, on Facebook, that schools no longer say the pledge.  Usually, I'll post a comment in response to the post, and ask where they are no longer doing it.But when I ask, no one can tell me a place where they do not do it. I am not convinced that this is a widespread phenomenon.

[Heather in Neverland]

I see people post rather frequently, on Facebook, that schools no longer say the pledge. Usually, I'll post a comment in response to the post, and ask where they are no longer doing it.But when I ask, no one can tell me a place where they do not do it. I am not convinced that this is a widespread phenomenon.

They do not say it in any of the 5 school districts where I have worked in southeast Michigan.

[Butter]

I see people post rather frequently, on Facebook, that schools no longer say the pledge.  Usually, I'll post a comment in response to the post, and ask where they are no longer doing it.But when I ask, no one can tell me a place where they do not do it. I am not convinced that this is a widespread phenomenon.

 

They said it, but we weren't required to say or it or even stand when I was in elementary school in southern MD in the 1980s.  It was a big deal because there was a girl who was a Jehovah's Witness in my class and her parents said the pledge violated her religious beliefs and so that's why they said we didn't even have to stand while it was being said.  It was our choice.  I was in first grade.

[TeacherZee]

When I was in HS in the US in the late 90s my home room said it, but I know not all of them did.

[QueenCat]

They said it, but we weren't required to say or it or even stand when I was in elementary school in southern MD in the 1980s.  It was a big deal because there was a girl who was a Jehovah's Witness in my class and her parents said the pledge violated her religious beliefs and so that's why they said we didn't even have to stand while it was being said.  It was our choice.  I was in first grade.

 

I did know that Jehovah's Witnesses don't say the pledge. But the school still had a time for it, and those who chose not to didn't....... I actually worked in the St. Mary's County School System as a sub (mid-1980s) and know that it was said in that school system. I rarely saw a child sit out, and not participate. They always did so respectfully.

[QueenCat]

They do not say it in any of the 5 school districts where I have worked in southeast Michigan.

 

Thank  you for giving a specific example. You are the first that has been able to do so. Most people say, well I heard that don't do it in most places anymore........ but they can't back it up.

[dtsmamtj]

The misunderstanding of  US immigration policy has been speculated as a possible cause for the increase, and I mentioned it in a prior post.  However, if you go to the source of that claim linked, you will see that increased gang violence and economic hardship were cited as the root causes.

 

There is no misunderstanding that the US immigration policy, by and large, isn't enforced.  Yes, I live in an area affected by this.  

[Heather in Neverland]

When I was in HS in the US in the late 90s my home room said it, but I know not all of them did.

That's interesting. I wonder if it's geographical. I went to HS in Michigan in the 80s and we did not say it.

[Butter]

Here in TX, they not only say the US pledge, they say the TX pledge, have a minute of silence, and some schools have a school pledge as well.

[Murphy101]

I last remember saying it in first grade. After that, we never said it at school that I remember. And I'm fine with that.

[Ohdanigirl]

I see people post rather frequently, on Facebook, that schools no longer say the pledge. Usually, I'll post a comment in response to the post, and ask where they are no longer doing it.But when I ask, no one can tell me a place where they do not do it. I am not convinced that this is a widespread phenomenon.

I think it is on a school by school basis, not district or state. For example, in San Diego city schools I have found a few schools that say it MWF, some that don't say it at all, and others that do it for special days/assembly. In Chula Vista, elementary schools are beginning to do it I both English and Spanish, but I am not sure about middle and high schools. My cousin, in Idaho, says her children have recited it at every school they gave attended in that state (K-12). The high schools in Murrieta seem to do it MWF, as well.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

There is no misunderstanding that the US immigration policy, by and large, isn't enforced. Yes, I live in an area affected by this.

With regards to the influx of immigrants under the age of 18, it is being enforced correctly as per the law signed in 2008.

[idnib]

Meanwhile, in CA:

 

 

"We've convened a group of law firms to make sure these children, some of them as young as 8 years old, have access to due process," California Attorney General Kamala Harris said on Thursday.

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/us-usa-california-immigration-idUSKBN0FU02020140725

[Ohdanigirl]

Not really sure what the pledge of allegiance has to do with anything. My kids learned it in scouts. I don't care one way or the other.

There were some comments made up thread in response to an article (satire?) about raising these kids in camps to be God fearing, English speaking Americans. Assimilation was mentioned, etc. My response was to ask who would be tasked with this responsibility. I think expecting the schools to do it would be difficult. The pledge was just one af many minor things I mentioned.

 

Some may not agree, but it seems being taught the pledge is ones all step in passing along patriotism to the next generation. Albeit, not the end all be all.

 

 

Basically, we just were having a side conversation and went down a rabbit hole.