Because we often discuss the issue of college debt...

[Jane in NC]

This overview of a report from the New America Foundation is quite interesting.  Their analysis of data from the Department of Education suggests that the much of rising college debt is due to graduate and professional education:

 

 

Moreover, this trend is not limited to what many already know are high-cost credentials, like those in medicine and law. According to the data, in 2004, the median level of indebtedness for a borrower who earned a Master of Arts degree was $38,000. In 2012, that figured jumped to $59,000, after adjusting for inflation. Debt levels for other master’s degrees, such as a Master of Science or a Master of Education, show similar trends. For borrowers at the 75th percentile of indebtedness, the increases are even larger in absolute terms. For most master’s degrees, debt at the 75th percentile jumps from about $54,000 for degree recipients in 2004 to $85,000 in 2012, after adjusting for inflation.

The link to the entire report is at the end of the overview.

 

Because so many students are told that a master's is the new bachelor's, I wonder if students are plunging into graduate schools without thinking of the costs.  And I assume parents are less supportive financially of this second degree.

 

When I was in grad school, all of the students in my department (Mathematics) had teaching assistantships or research fellowships.  Our friends in library science or English could not get an assistantship until after earning their Master's degree and successfully passing their comprehensive exams, thus putting them on the road to their PhDs. 

 

In some cases, employers may pay for grad degrees.  Within my own family, the teachers take online grad courses in education for their MATs and are reimbursed by their school system upon successful completion of the course.  One of the engineers had his MS in Electrical Engineering paid for by his corporation--but I think that is an unusual program. 

 

Food for thought.

[creekland]

I only read the overview (so far)...

 

I wonder how much of the extra coming from graduate degrees is due to graduates not finding jobs upon graduation rather than being told they need a graduate degree... in other words, is it true that they need a graduate degree and are going or do they just think it will help since jobs they are after are few and far between and they didn't get one.  Does the graduate degree help them get a job in their field or is there a similar unemployment rate (in their field)?

 

I wonder if the whole report addresses the for-profit school debt vs the non-profit school debt too.  Every report I've seen shows the for-profits to be far, far worse and traditional 4 year schools being the best (for default rates and amounts).

I'm struck by the plight of our very own boardie on this thread, who seems to be part of this cohort of MA students:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/519907-so-depressed-about-work-opportunities-jawm/

 

Perhaps more importantly than plunging into graduate schools without thinking of the costs, is plunging ahead without much certainty of what the value of the degree will be at graduation.

 

 

[G5052]

I only read the overview (so far)...

 

I wonder how much of the extra coming from graduate degrees is due to graduates not finding jobs upon graduation rather than being told they need a graduate degree... in other words, is it true that they need a graduate degree and are going or do they just think it will help since jobs they are after are few and far between and they didn't get one.  Does the graduate degree help them get a job in their field or is there a similar unemployment rate (in their field)?

 

I wonder if the whole report addresses the for-profit school debt vs the non-profit school debt too.  Every report I've seen shows the for-profits to be far, far worse and traditional 4 year schools being the best (for default rates and amounts).

 

Yes, I think you describe some of the underlying factors.  I certainly see that locally.  We know three unemployed May graduates.  All are talking about graduate school, but I'm not sure that it would help in their situations.  One is an engineering graduate who never did any co-ops or summer jobs in his field.

[Caroline]

When I went to graduate school, back in the dark ages, before scanning tunneling electron microscopes... (Well, they were invented, but GT didn't have one, just a scanning election microscope and a transmission electron microscope.)

 

Everyone in engineering was getting paid to go to graduate school. I was funded by NASA and NSF. My DH was funded by DARPA. I knew people who were funded by different corporations--Coors Ceramics, GE, Intel, Electroc Boat, to name a few. In those days, we were spending money on research.

 

Government research funds plummeted soon after that. Regentrude often posts about not being able to find Americans to be STEM professors. I think lack of government research funds is a huge reason.

 

I have read where people want their kids' professors to be teachers, not researchers. I want the opposite. I want my kids' professors to be doing cutting edge, top of the line research. And it should be funded by the government and corporations.

 

It is important to our nation to be on the edge of the top scientific research in the world. We aren't any more. And it's part of our anti-intellectual attitude.

 

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore?

 

It depends.  Very few professional schools (none?) offer full support for their students, and I don't think ever have:  law, medicine, architecture, etc.  I think this is also true for the increasing number of terminal masters programs, which are not research focused, and mainly serve vocational purposes.

 

Graduate school in the sciences generally provide full support (tuition + some stipend) in exchange for a TA-ship or RA-ship for the top students they have admitted.  This also happens in the humanities, but I think the bar is generally higher to get full support, because there are fewer positions available.

 

In both the sciences and humanities, students can be admitted without support (that is, the student has to pay full tuition), and that's where a lot of the problems with graduate school debt happen, I believe.  These schools are happy to take the students' money, but don't have a great deal of confidence in their ability to succeed in their field.  I've been told many times that, for programs that do support some of their graduate students,  if you get admitted without support, that you shouldn't accept.  I don't think everyone has got that memo, though.

[G5052]

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

 

In the case of the unemployed engineering graduate we know, the graduate schools are also saying that they want work experience before they'll consider him for a research or teaching assistantship. That includes co-op/summer work which was a must when I was in school 30+ years ago, and is still a must.  He worked as a math tutor at a community college, which is good employment, but IMHO you have to step it up your junior and senior years in order to be attractive to employers and graduate schools.  In contrast we know two who are in their last year of engineering school who actually have lower GPA's but who did co-op and summer jobs.  They both have multiple offers in place for May 2015.

 

So I think the $$$ is out there, but increasingly you need more than just a STEM degree when apply for jobs and graduate school.  They want to know that you have applied it. 

 

I've already told DH that we may have to finance a co-op/internship in addition to college.  So that's in our budget on top of tuition and everything else.

[Jane in NC]

 

I wonder if the whole report addresses the for-profit school debt vs the non-profit school debt too.  Every report I've seen shows the for-profits to be far, far worse and traditional 4 year schools being the best (for default rates and amounts).

No, it does not.  But it does address in detail the issue of cumulative debt from undergrad and then master's or professional programs.  The median is one thing.  It is the 90th percentile that seems to make the reactionary news stories.

 

[Azalea]

I'm frustrated. There are so many articles about student load debt. Some say the debt is worth it, some disagree. Some say the debt is a huge burden, some say that the burden is light and well worth it.

 

Is anyone writing about how the cost of college is effecting parents? Tuition, room and board will cost $25,000 per year at our state school. I have three kids. If all goes well, that's $300,000. Most STEM degrees require five years. I've ran the net price calculators and we are full pay. And yes, my kids will get academic scholarships here or there, a few thousand dollars, while I appreciate that, it doesn't take much of a bite out of the big bill.  We have saved a bit and will survive this if my husband is able to keep his job. But I think a lot of parents will head into retirement poor because they paid for college. Where is their story? 

 

Thanks for posting the article. 

[Caroline]

I totally agree about the co-ops and internships. We are definitely steering our son towards that. I had an internship with NIST as an undergrad. Not only did it give me a chance to work in a lab, I also published quite a few articles from my work there.

 

In the case of the unemployed engineering graduate we know, the graduate schools are also saying that they want work experience before they'll consider him for a research or teaching assistantship. That includes co-op/summer work which was a must when I was in school 30+ years ago, and is still a must. He worked as a math tutor at a community college, which is good employment, but IMHO you have to step it up your junior and senior years in order to be attractive to employers and graduate schools. In contrast we know two who are in their last year of engineering school who actually have lower GPA's but who did co-op and summer jobs. They both have multiple offers in place for May 2015.

 

So I think the $$$ is out there, but increasingly you need more than just a STEM degree when apply for jobs and graduate school. They want to know that you have applied it.

 

I've already told DH that we may have to finance a co-op/internship in addition to college. So that's in our budget on top of tuition and everything else.

[Jane in NC]

I'm frustrated. There are so many articles about student load debt. Some say the debt is worth it, some disagree. Some say the debt is a huge burden, some say that the burden is light and well worth it.

 

Is anyone writing about how the cost of college is effecting parents? Tuition, room and board will cost $25,000 per year at our state school. I have three kids. If all goes well, that's $300,000. Most STEM degrees require five years. I've ran the net price calculators and we are full pay. And yes, my kids will get academic scholarships here or there, a few thousand dollars, while I appreciate that, it doesn't take much of a bite out of the big bill.  We have saved a bit and will survive this if my husband is able to keep his job. But I think a lot of parents will head into retirement poor because they paid for college. Where is their story? 

 

Thanks for posting the article. 

None of us has a crystal ball and none of us can speak for your kids.  College was certainly worthwhile for my husband and me--and I believe it was for my recently graduated son.  Frankly I think that the average debt from Stafford loans (about $25K) is manageable for most young people. 

 

Some people object to all debt on principle.  That is their prerogative, but in my opinion it does not necessarily help the general discussion on whether moderate debt may help a young adult find his place in the world.

 

One thing that many of us have found is that private colleges, despite their higher sticker price, are actually less expensive than some state schools.  I think you are wise not to bank on academic scholarships--no one can assume that their kids will receive them automatically.  But it is smart to consider a variety of paths and then compare the bottom lines.

 

This is tough for parents but at least you are thinking about this and have saved a bit. This puts you ahead of the game. 

[Reefgazer]

I did my graduate work about 12 years ago and got a full ride in exchange for a RA-ship; not *quite* the dark ages, and mine was funded by the government, but it was by the state government, not the feds.  Federal funding has definitely decreased.

When I went to graduate school, back in the dark ages, before scanning tunneling electron microscopes... (Well, they were invented, but GT didn't have one, just a scanning election microscope and a transmission electron microscope.)

Everyone in engineering was getting paid to go to graduate school. I was funded by NASA and NSF. My DH was funded by DARPA. I knew people who were funded by different corporations--Coors Ceramics, GE, Intel, Electroc Boat, to name a few. In those days, we were spending money on research.

Government research funds plummeted soon after that. Regentrude often posts about not being able to find Americans to be STEM professors. I think lack of government research funds is a huge reason.

I have read where people want their kids' professors to be teachers, not researchers. I want the opposite. I want my kids' professors to be doing cutting edge, top of the line research. And it should be funded by the government and corporations.

It is important to our nation to be on the edge of the top scientific research in the world. We aren't any more. And it's part of our anti-intellectual attitude.

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

 

[creekland]

In the case of the unemployed engineering graduate we know, the graduate schools are also saying that they want work experience before they'll consider him for a research or teaching assistantship. That includes co-op/summer work which was a must when I was in school 30+ years ago, and is still a must.  He worked as a math tutor at a community college, which is good employment, but IMHO you have to step it up your junior and senior years in order to be attractive to employers and graduate schools.  In contrast we know two who are in their last year of engineering school who actually have lower GPA's but who did co-op and summer jobs.  They both have multiple offers in place for May 2015.

 

So I think the $$$ is out there, but increasingly you need more than just a STEM degree when apply for jobs and graduate school.  They want to know that you have applied it. 

 

I've already told DH that we may have to finance a co-op/internship in addition to college.  So that's in our budget on top of tuition and everything else.

 

When we went to visit youngest's college choice, they REALLY emphasized that ALL students (regardless of major) should have at least one internship in order to look better for employers - and emphasized that they go out of their way to help students find opportunities.

 

I suspect this is becoming the norm and is not just the case with this college.

 

I wonder what happens when all applicants can check that box?  What's next?

[Arcadia]

I wonder what happens when all applicants can check that box? What's next?

Back home, we need to pass a 6 month (with internship allowance given) engineering internship as one of the requirements to be conferred our Bachelors in Engineering.

 

It is not uncommon for a job applicant to be tested on the job during a day long (can be more than 8 hrs) interview. The internship mentors are often called by the interviewer if they have a few short listed candidates that are about equal.

 

Some interviewers would want to read the rather thick internship report as well because engineering internships aren't equal. They would ask questions on the internship. For example in the semiconductor industry, the interviewer would be interested if the intern did in depth work in front end, or back end or both.

 

During internship, I was in a Norwegian MNC that does ISO 9000 certification. That made my employer hire me to put me on a project management track.

 

Hubby has gone through full day peer interviews twice in the states, both interviews for engineering R&D positions. Like I said before, the interns here typically gets a job offer from the company.

 

ETA:

I am not familiar with NACE, just find their survey result interesting

"Results of NACE’s 2013 Student Survey show that 63.1 percent of paid interns received at least one job offer. In comparison, only 37 percent of unpaid interns got an offer; that’s not much better than results for those with no internship—35.2 percent received at least one job offer.

In terms of starting salary, too, paid interns did significantly better than other job applicants: The median starting salary for new grads with paid internship experience is $51,930—far outdistancing their counterparts with an unpaid internship ($35,721) or no internship experience ($37,087)." (link)

[Barbara H]

When we went to visit youngest's college choice, they REALLY emphasized that ALL students (regardless of major) should have at least one internship in order to look better for employers - and emphasized that they go out of their way to help students find opportunities.

 

I suspect this is becoming the norm and is not just the case with this college.

I agree strongly that internships are important. I say this based on the research which shows students who intern have better job prospects after graduation. I also have personal experience with this because the internship I did in college helped me get one of my first jobs as well. My work study experience also helped me learn skills that I still use today.

 

I think we are a long way from all students having an internship and certainly from all students having a meaningful internship. I would love to see more students realize they need to be prepared to offer something more than just "I have a college degree."

[creekland]

I agree strongly that internships are important. I say this based on the research which shows students who intern have better job prospects after graduation. I also have personal experience with this because the internship I did in college helped me get one of my first jobs as well. My work study experience also helped me learn skills that I still use today.

 

I think we are a long way from all students having an internship and certainly from all students having a meaningful internship. I would love to see more students realize they need to be prepared to offer something more than just "I have a college degree."

 

I'm definitely not saying that internships have no value.  On the contrary, I think they are extremely useful when placed properly.  I just wonder what happens when "everyone" (or close to it) has one and there are still more qualified people than jobs.

 

First, our country decided "everyone" (used loosely, but I suspect most know what I'm talking about) needs a college degree. Without one, forget applying for many positions. Now many are thinking they need more than a BS/BA.  Internships are being pushed a bit (at least at private schools).  What's next?

 

We may have as many jobs in this nation, but the types are changing - more retail and service industry - which don't pay nearly enough to live on (in general).  The truly "life sustainable" jobs are getting more competitive IMO.  This has its perks (less mediocrity as per other thread), but there are downfalls too (more in debt to get those higher degrees - more working unpaid to get those internships).

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

the internship I did in college helped me get one of my first jobs as well. My work study experience also helped me learn skills that I still use today.

Absolutely fascinating.  I had a strong desire to co-op in college.  I still use skills I learned though that experience in 1981-84(!) today.

[mommymilkies]

I only read the overview (so far)...

 

I wonder how much of the extra coming from graduate degrees is due to graduates not finding jobs upon graduation rather than being told they need a graduate degree... in other words, is it true that they need a graduate degree and are going or do they just think it will help since jobs they are after are few and far between and they didn't get one.  Does the graduate degree help them get a job in their field or is there a similar unemployment rate (in their field)?

 

I wonder if the whole report addresses the for-profit school debt vs the non-profit school debt too.  Every report I've seen shows the for-profits to be far, far worse and traditional 4 year schools being the best (for default rates and amounts).

This.  I know many grads who continue to grad school because there are no jobs.  It's a way of staying on their parents' insurance and finding something to do besides working at McD's.  I know my SIL was encouraged by the school district to be working on her Masters in Education to look more appealing as a job prospect.  BUT not to actually get her Master's as that would be a higher payscale and discourage employers.  Her most of a Master's and her Bachelor's in Education got her a job paying minimum wage.  She's unemployed now because of cut backs. 

[mommymilkies]

When we went to visit youngest's college choice, they REALLY emphasized that ALL students (regardless of major) should have at least one internship in order to look better for employers - and emphasized that they go out of their way to help students find opportunities.

 

I suspect this is becoming the norm and is not just the case with this college.

 

I wonder what happens when all applicants can check that box?  What's next?

But how is this feasible for most students? Most internships I've encountered are unpaid and full time.  My brother is in one now and one step away from living on the streets because you can't work 40+ hours a week unpaid and find a way to pay bills. 

[Barbara H]

I'm definitely not saying that internships have no value.  On the contrary, I think they are extremely useful when placed properly.  I just wonder what happens when "everyone" (or close to it) has one and there are still more qualified people than jobs.

 

First, our country decided "everyone" (used loosely, but I suspect most know what I'm talking about) needs a college degree. Without one, forget applying for many positions. Now many are thinking they need more than a BS/BA.  Internships are being pushed a bit (at least at private schools).  What's next?

 

We may have as many jobs in this nation, but the types are changing - more retail and service industry - which don't pay nearly enough to live on (in general).  The truly "life sustainable" jobs are getting more competitive IMO.  This has its perks (less mediocrity as per other thread), but there are downfalls too (more in debt to get those higher degrees - more working unpaid to get those internships).

 

 

I agree. It is a shifting landscape for sure. It is getting harder to maintain a middle class lifestyle.

 

I do think it is important for students to realize now that they can't just get a college degree and assume they've secured their future. I read something the other day from a former college president that really spoke to me...

 

"Many students still opt for the easy path: the less demanding college, the easy major, the prof who doesn’t expect or demand much. Many don’t appreciate the connection between effort and outcomes...

 

All college students would do well to periodically ask themselves this question: Why would anyone hire me?

 

If the answer is, just because I have a college degree, you’d better think more deeply about the question." quote from George Cornelius

 

 

 

 

[Barbara H]

But how is this feasible for most students? Most internships I've encountered are unpaid and full time.  My brother is in one now and one step away from living on the streets because you can't work 40+ hours a week unpaid and find a way to pay bills. 

 

My internship was for a full academic year, but it was a substitute for taking one class. So, I got in 10-15 hours a week but it was while I was in school so it wasn't an economic hardship. I also got paid work experience working at the campus writing center.

 

That is a very difficult situation for your brother. While it is a widespread practice, companies are often violating labor laws when they have full time unpaid interns. It is happening a lot since the economic downturn but it is getting some attention in the media.

 

[mommymilkies]

My internship was for a full academic year, but it was a substitute for taking one class. So, I got in 10-15 hours a week but it was while I was in school so it wasn't an economic hardship. I also got paid work experience working at the campus writing center.

 

That is a very difficult situation for your brother. While it is a widespread practice, companies are often violating labor laws when they have full time unpaid interns. It is happening a lot since the economic downturn but it is getting some attention in the media.

 

It's a government public health department, too.  I told him to check into that, but he was lucky to get an internship at all with how many applicants there are. 

[creekland]

But how is this feasible for most students? Most internships I've encountered are unpaid and full time.  My brother is in one now and one step away from living on the streets because you can't work 40+ hours a week unpaid and find a way to pay bills. 

 

Like a pp had mentioned, we're budgeting for it for our guys.  If they can find paid, terrific.  If not, it seems silly in today's competitive world not to have something.  Their degree could be useless without it.

 

Fortunately, oldest was able to just plain "work" during the school year/summers where he's employed now (after graduation), so that worked out for the best.  But I'm not expecting to be able to count on that with our other two.

 

[Joker]

My sister and my sister in law are both in grad school but they both are having it paid for by the state. They have each been teaching for almost 20 years and are now specializing. One to work with dyslexic students and one to work with sight impaired students. They have already been promised jobs when their programs are completed.

 

I will not advise my dds to go straight to grad school unless it is truly necessary because there are other ways to get it done.

[Joker]

Like a pp had mentioned, we're budgeting for it for our guys.  If they can find paid, terrific.  If not, it seems silly in today's competitive world not to have something.  Their degree could be useless without it.

 

Fortunately, oldest was able to just plain "work" during the school year/summers where he's employed now (after graduation), so that worked out for the best.  But I'm not expecting to be able to count on that with our other two.

 

 

Dh has quit hiring anyone, even those with advanced degrees, without internships or previous experience in the field. There have been far too many hired that need too much hand holding and don't seem to know basic skills in his field. He used to want our dds to work part time through college but he has now said he is fine with them taking unpaid internships and us footing the bill because he knows it will make a difference.

[Reefgazer]

My graduate and undergraduate degrees were quite a few years apart, so my undergraduate degree *was* in the dark ages, and I had an internship with a well-known company and it helped me slide into jobs and get interviews very easily.  So even then, it was a huge plus.  I suspect when everyone has an internship, they will become pre-requisites to get into the degree program, much as large and small animal work is for vet school.  I also think it will put another barrier between the haves and have-nots because, as another poster mentioned up thread, you can't work an unpaid internship and also pay your bills (unless mom or dad or some sugar daddy/momma is paying them for you).  I often wonder if that situation and its economic impacts will generate federal legislation that prohibits unpaid internships; I can see that happening, depending on the political mood of the country.

I'm definitely not saying that internships have no value.  On the contrary, I think they are extremely useful when placed properly.  I just wonder what happens when "everyone" (or close to it) has one and there are still more qualified people than jobs.

 

First, our country decided "everyone" (used loosely, but I suspect most know what I'm talking about) needs a college degree. Without one, forget applying for many positions. Now many are thinking they need more than a BS/BA.  Internships are being pushed a bit (at least at private schools).  What's next?

 

We may have as many jobs in this nation, but the types are changing - more retail and service industry - which don't pay nearly enough to live on (in general).  The truly "life sustainable" jobs are getting more competitive IMO.  This has its perks (less mediocrity as per other thread), but there are downfalls too (more in debt to get those higher degrees - more working unpaid to get those internships).
 

 

[Caroline]

I find this thread an interesting contrast to some other recent threads about paying for college. We have had all sorts of suggestions that students work in the oil industry in Montana or construction in Alaska during summers to pay for college. Or on cruise ships or other seasonal employment. Those jobs would not serve as an internship for most majors. Even for structural engineers it would be a big stretch to say working construction was an internship. For a petroleum engineer, being a worker on the pipeline or driving a truck would not really be an internship.

 

My niece, who is majoring in archeology, worked on a dig this summer. She didn't make a ton of money, certainly not enough to pay her tuition. However, she got valuable experience in her field. She was intellectually stimulated. She learned some amazing, hands-on things. She also learned to be a museum tour guide, as part of the job was working in the museum one day a week.

 

I don't have much of a point, except sometimes it takes a long range picture to see what's better. So for my ME DS, it would be better to take a job as an intern in the engineering department at Lockheed than to get paid a higher wage working the C-130 line at Lockheed. (Although, when the line workers went on strike a few years ago, the engineers dropped what they were doing and started riveting.) For Creekland's middle son, it is better that he is working on a medical mission trip this summer than driving a truck in Montana.

 

And, like Reefgazer said above, that puts more space in the gap.

[8filltheheart]

I'm frustrated. There are so many articles about student load debt. Some say the debt is worth it, some disagree. Some say the debt is a huge burden, some say that the burden is light and well worth it.

 

Is anyone writing about how the cost of college is effecting parents? Tuition, room and board will cost $25,000 per year at our state school. I have three kids. If all goes well, that's $300,000. Most STEM degrees require five years. I've ran the net price calculators and we are full pay. And yes, my kids will get academic scholarships here or there, a few thousand dollars, while I appreciate that, it doesn't take much of a bite out of the big bill. We have saved a bit and will survive this if my husband is able to keep his job. But I think a lot of parents will head into retirement poor because they paid for college. Where is their story?

 

Thanks for posting the article.

I disagree that most STEM degrees require 5 yrs. Degrees are based on approx 15-17 hrs of credit per semester. Cooping will add length of time for a degree, but unlike mommymilkie's experience, paid coops and internships are our experience. Our oldest made a lot of $$ cooping, received full benefits until graduation (allowing him to get married before he graduated from college) and his coop company gave him scholarship $$ every semester until graduation. Our just graduated from high school student is doing a free internship this summer. The prof tried to get the internship paid, but ds did not qualify since he was not an actual undergrad yet. (He was doing it full-time, but has dropped back to 1 full day/week bc he needed to make $$). So paid opportunities do exist.

 

I suspect the kids that are taking 5 yr to graduate and are doing so without working are less likely to be hired bc of wondering if they are going to be able to meet the demands of the job. Students working a high number of hours to help pay their way through college would fall into a different category, though.

 

Fwiw, we have a high EFC and our kids know we won't take out loans. They have to find an affordable option. Lower ranked schools both IS and OOS will offer $$ to high achieving kids to attract them. It may not be a "match" school, but no one is impacted negatively by the finances and they are employable.

[Jane in NC]

I find this thread an interesting contrast to some other recent threads about paying for college. We have had all sorts of suggestions that students work in the oil industry in Montana or construction in Alaska during summers to pay for college. Or on cruise ships or other seasonal employment. Those jobs would not serve as an internship for most majors. Even for structural engineers it would be a big stretch to say working construction was an internship. For a petroleum engineer, being a worker on the pipeline or driving a truck would not really be an internship.

 

My niece, who is majoring in archeology, worked on a dig this summer. She didn't make a ton of money, certainly not enough to pay her tuition. However, she got valuable experience in her field. She was intellectually stimulated. She learned some amazing, hands-on things. She also learned to be a museum tour guide, as part of the job was working in the museum one day a week.

 

I don't have much of a point, except sometimes it takes a long range picture to see what's better. So for my ME DS, it would be better to take a job as an intern in the engineering department at Lockheed than to get paid a higher wage working the C-130 line at Lockheed. (Although, when the line workers went on strike a few years ago, the engineers dropped what they were doing and started riveting.) For Creekland's middle son, it is better that he is working on a medical mission trip this summer than driving a truck in Montana.

 

And, like Reefgazer said above, that puts more space in the gap.

 

It occurs to me that many of us may see the "big picture" differently.  For some, the big picture means no debt.  For others, the big picture means resume or CV building. 

 

My husband used to sit on an advisory panel to our regional university's IT program.  Every spring he would hear presentations from some of the IT students and come home with a stack of resumes which I found to be interesting.  Some would find creative ways to merge their interests with their discipline (like the guy who created the website and data base for a surfer charity).  An internship, a senior project and possibly some sort of community based work certainly looked more impressive to me than a resume of someone who only had retail or restaurant experience.

 

I do think that the way some for-profit corporations have utilized interns as slave labor is troublesome.  And it is problematic for parents and students if they have no choice but to subsidize these internships if no other jobs are available.  Fortunately the corporation for which my husband works has a policy of not accepting free labor.  They pay student interns reasonably well and then often high many of them when they finish their degrees.

[Barbara H]

They are competitive but for some majors students can look into National Science Foundation funded REU (Research Experience for Undergraduate programs). The sad part is your child may not be home for summer. But, the good part is they are earning valuable research experience and the programs tend to pretty well paid. http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/reu_search.jsp

[Caroline]

They are competitive but for some majors students can look into National Science Foundation funded REU (Research Experience for Undergraduate programs). The sad part is your child may not be home for summer. But, the good part is they are earning valuable research experience and the programs tend to pretty well paid. http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/reu_search.jsp

Thanks for that resource.

[Muttichen]

When I went to graduate school, back in the dark ages, before scanning tunneling electron microscopes... (Well, they were invented, but GT didn't have one, just a scanning election microscope and a transmission electron microscope.)

 

Everyone in engineering was getting paid to go to graduate school. I was funded by NASA and NSF. My DH was funded by DARPA. I knew people who were funded by different corporations--Coors Ceramics, GE, Intel, Electroc Boat, to name a few. In those days, we were spending money on research.

 

Government research funds plummeted soon after that. Regentrude often posts about not being able to find Americans to be STEM professors. I think lack of government research funds is a huge reason.

 

I have read where people want their kids' professors to be teachers, not researchers. I want the opposite. I want my kids' professors to be doing cutting edge, top of the line research. And it should be funded by the government and corporations.

 

It is important to our nation to be on the edge of the top scientific research in the world. We aren't any more. And it's part of our anti-intellectual attitude.

 

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

 

PhD programs are still free for engineering and science majors.  My ds is studying computer science and he gets full tuition plus a stipend of about $25K per year.  It's a different story for his wife, who's in med school!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Many years ago I had a job interview that asked a question that stuck with me.  This was for a major historical site and tourist destination.  They asked me what I thought a good attendance record was.  I sat quietly for a moment, because I was also volunteering at the site and was trying to remember how many visitors had come the previous year.

 

Then I saw that they were giving me and each other a funny look.  I realized they didn't mean visitors; they were asking how often I thought I should come to work.  My response was of course, I should come everyday that I was scheduled.

 

I add this, not because it directly relates to the internship question.  But I think the evidence of internships, even when they are low level and menial, do give evidence of a seriousness and real work ethic that cannot be assumed anymore from holding a college degree. 

 

[Gwen in VA]

 

PhD programs are still free for engineering and science majors.

 

Yes. Ditto here -- dd (and everyone else pursuing a Ph.D. in her STEM department) has been fully funded in grad school since Day One. And the "low salary" of grad students needs to be counterbalanced by some real benefits -- every grad student at her university receives free health insurance as well as super-heavily-discounted public transportation, which are non-trivial expenses.

 

The stipend offered students does vary some according to where the funding comes from, so even students working on the same project may not receive the same stipend, but all the Ph.D. students in her program receive stipends that are (according to the university) not only expected to cover living expenses but also paying off about $500 of student loans per month. (And the students who do not have student loans are hopefully saving that $500!)

 

My son is pursuing a master's in a STEM field, and everyone in his program is fully funded. The stipend is considerably smaller, so most grad students are probably going slightly negative, but nonetheless the stipend does cover basic living expenses.

[readwithem]

PhD programs are still free for engineering and science majors.  My ds is studying computer science and he gets full tuition plus a stipend of about $25K per year.  It's a different story for his wife, who's in med school!

 

In the fall, my dd will start a PhD program in Philosophy of Education with a similar package.  Her advisors were phenomenal in helping her jump through hoops.  

[regentrude]

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

 

In physics, graduate school is free and grad students earn money as well. Students are either funded as Teaching Assistants or Research Assistants. Schools handle it differently; some waive the tuition, others pay the students more and charge tuition.

 

[Azalea]

I disagree that most STEM degrees require 5 yrs. Degrees are based on approx 15-17 hrs of credit per semester. Cooping will add length of time for a degree, but unlike mommymilkie's experience, paid coops and internships are our experience. Our oldest made a lot of $$ cooping, received full benefits until graduation (allowing him to get married before he graduated from college) and his coop company gave him scholarship $$ every semester until graduation. Our just graduated from high school student is doing a free internship this summer. The prof tried to get the internship paid, but ds did not qualify since he was not an actual undergrad yet. (He was doing it full-time, but has dropped back to 1 full day/week bc he needed to make $$). So paid opportunities do exist.

 

I suspect the kids that are taking 5 yr to graduate and are doing so without working are less likely to be hired bc of wondering if they are going to be able to meet the demands of the job. Students working a high number of hours to help pay their way through college would fall into a different category, though.

 

Fwiw, we have a high EFC and our kids know we won't take out loans. They have to find an affordable option. Lower ranked schools both IS and OOS will offer $$ to high achieving kids to attract them. It may not be a "match" school, but no one is impacted negatively by the finances and they are employable.

 

I was referring to my state collegess requiring five years, not colleges in general. Sure, some students who take five years maybe, as you put it, "unable to meet the demands of the job" . But many, many others are manipulated by the institution into needing to take five years. The colleges simply don't make the necessary courses available. To suggest these hard working kids are less able is hurtful. 

[8filltheheart]

I was referring to my state collegess requiring five years, not colleges in general. Sure, some students who take five years maybe, as you put it, "unable to meet the demands of the job" . But many, many others are manipulated by the institution into needing to take five years. The colleges simply don't make the necessary courses available. To suggest these hard working kids are less able is hurtful. 

 

Azalea,

 

I am not intending to be hurtful.  I have read numerous comments before about STEM degrees being too intense academically to be completed in 4 yrs (in general and not referring to this thread) and thought that is what you were referring to.   I do disagree with that assessment.   And not being able to meet the demands of the job is a serious implication.   When lives are on the line and critical decisions need to be made to ensure safe handling to dangerous materials, being able to handle the stress of the situation is vital. (Both my dh and ds work(ed) in plants that either deal with dangerous materials or in plants that make products that if not manufactured correctly could result in numerous deaths.   Not all STEM fields are like that, but many are.)

 

If universities are manipulating STEM kids into taking 5 yrs to graduate by not offering class sequences appropriately and are depriving enrolled students the ability to enroll in required classes, why would those schools even remain as options for your students?  (I am also curious as to why they are they targeting STEM students vs it simply being across all majors?)  It is certainly not a nationwide practice for schools to not allow students to enroll in required classes.   There are lower ranked schools across the country that recruit strong students that could end up being cheaper than your instate options, especially if it takes 5 yrs to graduate. 

[Azalea]

If universities are manipulating STEM kids into taking 5 yrs to graduate by not offering class sequences appropriately and are depriving enrolled students the ability to enroll in required classes, why would those schools even remain as options for your students?  (I am also curious as to why they are they targeting STEM students vs it simply being across all majors?)  It is certainly not a nationwide practice for schools to not allow students to enroll in required classes.   There are lower ranked schools across the country that recruit strong students that could end up being cheaper than your instate options, especially if it takes 5 yrs to graduate. 

 

Because oos public would cost $15k more per year and privates are rapidly approaching and passing $60k per year. Seriously, those of us who are not rich and are not poor are being hammered by the cost of college. 

 

Here's an article about "The Myth of the 4 Year College Degree"

http://business.time.com/2013/01/10/the-myth-of-the-4-year-college-degree/

"According to the Department of Education, fewer than 40% of students who enter college each year graduate within four years, while almost 60% of students graduate in six years. At public schools, less than a third of students graduate on time."

[8filltheheart]

Because oos public would cost $15k more per year and privates are rapidly approaching and passing $60k per year. Seriously, those of us who are not rich and are not poor are being hammered by the cost of college. 

 

Here's an article about "The Myth of the 4 Year College Degree"

http://business.time.com/2013/01/10/the-myth-of-the-4-year-college-degree/

"According to the Department of Education, fewer than 40% of students who enter college each year graduate within four years, while almost 60% of students graduate in six years. At public schools, less than a third of students graduate on time."

 

There is a difference between not graduating in 4 yrs bc you are not able to take the classes b/c they are not offered and not being able to complete a program in 4 yrs b/c you change majors or coop (I wouldn't lump cooping in with delayed graduation like the article did b/c cooping is working toward work experience for your degree).   Students that enter needing remedial courses (which accts for a very high percentage of students which is not even addressed in the link you posted, but is here http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml Reports indicate that anywhere from 30-60% of students need remedial course work) will not be able to graduate in 4 yrs b/c they can't start the 4 yr sequence until they complete the remedial courses.   They acct for a large portion of the delayed graduation population.  

 

I linked a list of schools which offer a lot of merit aid to kids with high avg to high stats. http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com/

 

FWIW, we are not rich by any stretch and we cannot afford to pay for our EFC.   Our ds will be attending a school on that list full-ride even though he was accepted into much higher ranked schools.   We couldn't afford them.   

 

Troy, for example, offers free tuition for a 27 or 1220.   The total cost would only be $10,821/yr.

Troy University

Application Deadline: March 1st

Award: Full Ride (Tuition+Room+Board)

Residual COA: $4,470/year

Requirements: 3.7 GPA, 31 ACT or 1380 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $10,821/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 27 ACT or 1220 SAT (CR+M)

 

 Lousiana Tech, for instance is full-ride for kids with a 1400 or 32.  (I have no idea what the residual costs are when they pay tuition, room and food. for those scores.)

Louisiana Tech University

Application Deadline: Jan 5th

Award: Full Ride (tuition, fees, and on-campus regular dorm and meals for four years)

Residual COA: $5,229/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

[swimmermom3]

This has been a very good thread, Jane. Thank you for starting it.

 

I am certainly someone who has worried about the levels of debt that some students have had to take on in order to attend college. Even "manageable" loads can take their toll on student health and opportunities lost if servicing debt has to take priority over choosing a more challenging job or one in a more desirable locale. I also believe that those debt loads need to be taken on with a complete understanding of what they truly mean and that the degree itself is no guarantee for future employment without some of the additional factors discussed here such as a strong work ethic and if possible, field experience.

 

I do believe it is fair to ask about the impact of college debt loads on parents who are near retirement age - many whose retirement funds took major hits with the downturn of the economy.  This is important information in an aging population in a country where the future of affordable healthcare is in question. But if you pose that question, I believe you also need to look at the impact of under-educated and possibly minimally employed young adults on their parents' bottom line. 

 

It's easy to say that if your young adult is not attending college that they will be working full-time. The reality is more complicated. Where I live, the primary jobs available for a high school graduate are restaurant and retail. My dd, (21), has worked for a national retail chain while attending cosmetology school. There is no way on less than $10 an hour that she could afford to live out on her own while paying for car insurance and living expenses even if she could work full time. Hours can range from 30 to 3 per week and employees must be on call from 5am to 5 pm. 

 

My older son's story is a bit different. He is 19 and has a government job. His roommate works full time at a collision repair shop and between the two of them, they have been able to get an apartment close to ds's job. It's still early to know if they will be able to maintain living on their own, but so far so good. Since they are under age, they can't spend their spare time bar-hopping and they can't afford Internet. Ds tries to pick up as many extra shifts as he can. He is still on our car, health, and home owner's insurance but reimburses us for his car insurance. He also reimburses dh for his phone service since it is much cheaper to remain on our plan. If he had to pay for insurance in all three areas on his own policies, I doubt he could afford to live on his own at this point.

 

Even if he works really hard and is promoted, it is unlikely that in three years when his high school classmates graduate from college, that he will be making all that much more than some of their starting salaries will be depending on their majors. His one advantage would be if he can continue to save money at his current rate and not take on any debt.  The absolute highest he can go at the very top of his field is $157,000. I believe some of his engineering buddies will be making that in their mid-to -late thirties.

 

A lot of young people who don't go on to college have debt loads not unlike college graduates because they don't make enough money, but still need cars and car repairs.  In the early years of my sister's marriage, she and her dh often had to borrow money from both sets of parents. She and my BIL had some college credit, but no degrees. Life changed when my sister went to nursing school. Her level of pay has continued to climb while BIL's stays relatively flat. There is  a distinct possibility that my older children will need more financial help over the long run than our youngest who plans on attending college. In many cases, having a child not attend college does not mean that you will not have to take on debt for your children.

 

 

[Serenade]

My husband, 30 years+ working as an EE, says that engineering internships aren't as plentiful as they used to be. His company no longer has any -- apparently the company feels they are not worth the time, effort and resources required. My DH seems to feel that his company is not alone in this, that many engineering companies are cutting back on the number of interns. And just another thought to consider, while engineering interns have typically been paid, interns in other fields have often not been paid or been paid very little. I think there is some pushback on this (fairness issues re: free labor), which also makes companies less willing to provide internships and experience. Kind of interesting in light of increased demand by employers for graduates with experience.

[flyingiguana]

 

And that ended up a little off topic, there. My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? And is that putting our nation in a bad place?

 

Way back when I was in grad school, there were students admitted to STEM programs with "no" support.  However, the grad school did provide a tuition waiver if they found a job on campus.  And all these students found a job in their field on campus.  They may not have been paid well, but that tuition waiver certainly made it worth it. 

 

I don't know if that was just the school I was at, or if that was common practice.

 

All those people went on to get actual support in the 2nd and subsequent years.

 

It's possible this is still happening?

 

Assistantships paid better than those jobs these people got, but not by much.  When I was in grad school, NSF was in the process of raising its fellowships.  The thinking was that this would encourage schools to raise assistantship pay.  Way *before* I was in grad school one could actually support a family on assistantship pay and they were trying to get back to that.  (The levels hadn't changed, but inflation had changed the cost of living)

 

A couple kids I know have graduated with degrees in the humanities.  They've found jobs, but the jobs don't pay all that well and certainly aren't in their field.  So they're making the decision to go back and get a master's degree --not in their original fields, though.  They've already got a whole lot of debt, so I guess this doesn't seem like much more of a plunge.

 

Although a lot of the debt may be related to college beyond the bachelor's, it's possible that a lot of it is getting racked up by people who DO have debt from the first 4 years.  It's on top of what they already had.

 

And med school/law school has always been a big debt venture.

[JanetC]

Perhaps more importantly than plunging into graduate schools without thinking of the costs, is plunging ahead without much certainty of what the value of the degree will be at graduation.

Investments in education have always had a certain amount of risk, and that risk has increased as state and federal governments have shifted more of the cost onto families and students.

 

I had a neighbor get caught in this: Her DH was a math teacher. After years of living on a school teacher's salary, he decided to upgrade his skills and get an MBA. He took a contract to train and develop teachers and curriculum, which gave him the flexibility to work and do the MBA at the same time. With his school-year-focused work schedule, he was able to do a summer internship between his first and second years, and the company offered him a position after graduation.

 

Then the crash happened. The job offer disappeared. His parents health declined rapidly that spring, and they died within a month of each other. Taking care of family and estate issues meant he couldn't be chasing the few jobs that were out there at the same time as the rest of his graduating class. Meanwhile, since he'd thought he had a position with the company where he interned, he had not renewed his teaching contract with the school district. And, now that he needed something, school districts were cutting jobs. He had no income to fall back on.

 

She ended up moving back into her parents house, with her husband and three kids. Last I heard, they were in their own place again and getting back on their feet, but he was teaching math, not working at the higher salary they were hoping for before they made all the sacrifices necessary for him to get that MBA.

[swimmermom3]

Investments in education have always had a certain amount of risk, and that risk has increased as state and federal governments have shifted more of the cost onto families and students.

 

I had a neighbor get caught in this: Her DH was a math teacher. After years of living on a school teacher's salary, he decided to upgrade his skills and get an MBA. He took a contract to train and develop teachers and curriculum, which gave him the flexibility to work and do the MBA at the same time. With his school-year-focused work schedule, he was able to do a summer internship between his first and second years, and the company offered him a position after graduation.

 

Then the crash happened. The job offer disappeared. His parents health declined rapidly that spring, and they died within a month of each other. Taking care of family and estate issues meant he couldn't be chasing the few jobs that were out there at the same time as the rest of his graduating class. Meanwhile, since he'd thought he had a position with the company where he interned, he had not renewed his teaching contract with the school district. And, now that he needed something, school districts were cutting jobs. He had no income to fall back on.

 

She ended up moving back into her parents house, with her husband and three kids. Last I heard, they were in their own place again and getting back on their feet, but he was teaching math, not working at the higher salary they were hoping for before they made all the sacrifices necessary for him to get that MBA.

 

Many of us personally know of situations where investment in education did not turn out the way expected.

 

If I look at the situation described, I can play the "what if?" game.  If the math teacher had decided to stay where he was and not pursue more education, the economy still would have tanked. Living expenses would be tighter. As his kids got older and expenses increased, that income may not have been enough.  At that point, the math teacher is older and financially in even less of a position to do something to change his employment status.

 

I have to remind myself when I panic about my youngest, college, and debt, that for every story of an unemployed college graduate, there is a story of an unemployed high school graduate.

 

The summer of my oldest son's junior year in high school, he worked at dh's company's warehouse bucking freight.  My son thought it was a blast until one day the warehouse manager took him aside and said, "See all these guys here, in ten years most of them will be on disability." "Stay in school."

 

Ds didn't go on to college. My oldest dd didn't go on to college. To a certain extent, success in their chosen professions will depend on the durability of their bodies. When their bodies are no longer able to do the job, they will have little to fall back on. Maybe my dd will be able to work long enough as a hairdresser, spending her days playing with toxic chemicals, to be able to put her kids through college, but at what cost? 

 

There are risks involved with both paths, but from where I am sitting as a parent, I would still choose some form of education and training beyond high school and I would advocate for Plan B's for everyone, college graduate or not.

 

 

[Arcadia]

. Maybe my dd will be able to work long enough as a hairdresser, spending her days playing with toxic chemicals, to be able to put her kids through college, but at what cost?

 

I know many hairdressers who by their 40s has their own salon and are still working in their 60s because they enjoy it and are still very fit. Some has put kids through college. Hours are very long though for them.

 

One of the hairdresser I went to as a kid does children haircuts at her home for extra income. Now it is about $20 for a kid's haircut in a hair salon in my area.

 

Another thing for hairdressing is would you be open to the idea of your daughter using your garage space as her salon? There is a neighborhood that we sometimes drive through where salons in family garage area are common.

 

A side income to look into would be bridal hairstylist. I paid for one for my wedding and she is a freelancer. For an hour of work in the morning, she gets well paid.

[*LC]

They are competitive but for some majors students can look into National Science Foundation funded REU (Research Experience for Undergraduate programs). The sad part is your child may not be home for summer. But, the good part is they are earning valuable research experience and the programs tend to pretty well paid. http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/reu_search.jsp

 

My college kid is working on one of these this summer. She was a freshman last year, so I thought we would have her home for this summer before she started co-oping/interning after her sophomore year. However, she found a research project that fit her interests and left for the summer. She had never been interested in research, but is now thinking about applying for a research position at her school. Last year at orientation the presenters encouraged the incoming freshmen to start working with researchers on campus as soon as possible. (I know there is talk here about this being common at smaller schools without graduate students, but she does to a big state u.)

 

My point is, graduate schools used to be free for most engineering and science majors. Is it not anymore? And is that because we have killed research funds? 

 

As I understand it, one of the purposes of a REU is to encourage undergraduate students to go into academia. So, the university my daughter is working at has let the students on her team know that a master's program would be free for them if they wanted to apply there. In addition, they would be paid $1,200 a month to be as a teaching or research assistant. Everyone on her project is a STEM major, but not all are engineering majors. 

 

But how is this feasible for most students? Most internships I've encountered are unpaid and full time.  My brother is in one now and one step away from living on the streets because you can't work 40+ hours a week unpaid and find a way to pay bills. 

 

In the dark ages, my liberal arts major required an internship for graduation, and we were all paid. My daughter is already looking for an internship for after her sophomore year, and all the ones she is considering a paid. (She may also co-op, which is paid.)

 

Because oos public would cost $15k more per year and privates are rapidly approaching and passing $60k per year. Seriously, those of us who are not rich and are not poor are being hammered by the cost of college. 

 

 

Unfortunately or fortunately, you don't know how much those OOS or private universities will cost your kid until you receive the final cost breakdown after your child is accepted to a school. My daughter would not have had to pay tuition to any our state schools, and  it was extremely hard to say no to that when she decided she wanted to go to an OOS big state u that doesn't have free OOS tuition. However, free tuition doesn't mean free college. With the scholarships her school gave her, she ended with a final COA that was less than what she would have paid to stay for the free instate tuition. This year her COA will less than 8 quoted you as the COA for automatic full-rides. I have heard others here talk their children paying less for private colleges after scholarships than they would have paid for an in-state flagship. So, you just never know how it will turn out in the end for your child.

[creekland]

 for every story of an unemployed college graduate, there is a story of an unemployed high school graduate.

 

 

Here are some recent unemployment stats:

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

 

In short:

 

No high school diploma: 9.1%

High school diploma:      5.8%

Some college or AA:      5.0%

Bachelors and higher:    3.3%

 

Overall, the news really doesn't seem that bad now - esp compared to a couple of years ago.  One ought to be mindful of high debt though, and of course, this says nothing about being employed "in their field."

 

Incidentally, if one scrolls across the bach or higher row, the unemployment rate has never been above 3.9% in the past year... AND it's never been that low in any other category.

 

Just food for thought.

 

[cathmom]

 

 

Unfortunately or fortunately, you don't know how much those OOS or private universities will cost your kid until you receive the final cost breakdown after your child is accepted to a school. My daughter would not have had to pay tuition to any our state schools, and  it was extremely hard to say no to that when she decided she wanted to go to an OOS big state u that doesn't have free OOS tuition. However, free tuition doesn't mean free college. With the scholarships her school gave her, she ended with a final COA that was less than what she would have paid to stay for the free instate tuition. This year her COA will less than 8 quoted you as the COA for automatic full-rides. I have heard others here talk their children paying less for private colleges after scholarships than they would have paid for an in-state flagship. So, you just never know how it will turn out in the end for your child.

 

And you don't know what will happen in year 2. At least several excellent students from the high school where I taught went OOS with good financial aid, and then were offered significantly less for year 2. Their families couldn't pay more, so they ended up having to come back home and reapply to in-state schools. 

[Jane in NC]

And you don't know what will happen in year 2. At least several excellent students from the high school where I taught went OOS with good financial aid, and then were offered significantly less for year 2. Their families couldn't pay more, so they ended up having to come back home and reapply to in-state schools. 

That is a shame.

 

My son received merit aid that was guaranteed for four years provided he jumped through a couple of hoops (maintaining credit hours, for example).  Other merit aid offers were presented in similar terms.  This is probably the key difference between financial aid (need based) vs. merit.  Family finances and the whims of financial aid officers can change the former; the latter is grade dependent.

 

Considering that my son's college picked up some of his travel expenses (field school in England, conference in Austin), he ended up receiving more funding than his merit aid.  Which is quite remarkable--and part of the reason that I shall be a happy contributor to his college now that he has graduated.