Starting the progymnasmata 8th grade

[Penguin]

I am going to have my son start the progymnasmata in 8th grade. Has anyone else done this as late 7th or 8th grade?

 

 

I had been sort of ignoring the progym because I had the (I believe now) mistaken idea that you had to start in 3rd or 4th grade in order to meaningfully get through the progression. Hearing about programs like CAP's Writing and Rhetoric program also made me think that it was just too late for us to go down that path.

 

Then these resources changed my mind:

 

• Cindy Marsch's tutorials - Narrative, Fable and Proverb (recommended for 7th grade and up).
• SWB's 2008 (!) Using the Exercises of Classical Writing in High School
• D 'Angelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition

While I already had Corbett's book, D'Angelo's book is the one that really changed my thinking. After some fable exercises, he teaches how to use the fable in a pattern of arrangement that is an essay. There is certainly nothing 3rd gradish in his treatment of the fable. Now I am seeing the progym less as 'something to get through" and more as something you could cycle through. But considering that I have zero actual experience with the progym, I hope that we are not jumping off a writing cliff so close to high school.

 

FWIW, DS did WWS1 in 6th grade and we did writing-across-the curriculum for 7th. We don't want to go back to a writing curriculum that is disconnected from our other studies, but we both seem to now be yearning for a framework with a sequential feeling.

[Sorbie]

I am using this program with my 7th graders: http://www.writingtheclassicalway.com/. The program is used in 7th and 8th grade at the authors' school, so your student is at the the target grade-level. 

 

-Amber

[Crimson Wife]

I am using this program with my 7th graders: http://www.writingtheclassicalway.com/. The program is used in 7th and 8th grade at the authors' school, so your student is at the the target grade-level. 

 

-Amber

 

Hmm, that looks very interesting. And definitely much more budget-friendly than LToW!

[mo2]

I am using this program with my 7th graders: http://www.writingtheclassicalway.com/. The program is used in 7th and 8th grade at the authors' school, so your student is at the the target grade-level. 

 

-Amber

Are there samples of this anywhere?  Is it secular or Christian?  There isn't a lot of info on the site, unless I'm missing something. 

[crazyforlatin]

amazon has a look inside feature for this workbook, http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Classical-Way-Workbook-Ancient/dp/061586385X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1401395162&sr=8-3&keywords=writing+classical+way

[Sorbie]

Are there samples of this anywhere?  Is it secular or Christian?  There isn't a lot of info on the site, unless I'm missing something. 

 

You can view samples on Amazon.com. I had a few questions about using the program, so I contacted the authors throught their website .  They were very helpful.

 

As to secular or Christian, some of the models are from the Bible and some of the writing assignments are concerned with Christian themes. The encomium section discusses praising God. We haven't worked through the complete text yet, so there could be more Christian elements than I have mentioned here. 

 

It is a really well done program. It is similar to Composition in the Classical Tradition, but for a younger audience. I also like how it treats the progym as a specific set of exercises to work through in order to get to somewhere else rather than as it's own destination.

 

Hope that helps!

 

-Amber

[Penguin]

Sorbie, I am a bit confused about how the two workbooks fit with the text. From what I can tell, both workbooks cover the same progym exercises. Does the student cycle through the text twice? Do you think it is written such that a student could just do the second workbook?

 

And the samples say something to the effect that now your teacher will give you an assignment. Where are the teacher notes?

 

Funny (to me) is that just when I think I've heard of every writing program out there, I hear about another one!

 

At any rate, however we launch the progym next year, it no longer seems like a crazy idea to me. Yay for that:)

[Sorbie]

Sorbie, I am a bit confused about how the two workbooks fit with the text. From what I can tell, both workbooks cover the same progym exercises. Does the student cycle through the text twice? Do you think it is written such that a student could just do the second workbook?

 

And the samples say something to the effect that now your teacher will give you an assignment. Where are the teacher notes?

 

I emailed the authors for a copy of the answer key and for the essay assignments.  You only need the student text and one of the workbooks.  I am not sure if it is designed to be cycled through twice or not, but after looking at the level II samples I think you could just use the second workbook. I remember reading somewhere that the model selections for Level II were more difficult, but it seems like the assignments are the same.

 

I know how you feel about writing programs! I am sorry to have added another one to your list! :-)

[Paula in MS]

We are using Classical Composition started next year (7th grade).  Memoria Press has an alternate schedule for those of us starting later on in the game.   The plan is to do fable and narrative in one year by completing selected assignments.  I am hoping it works well.  

 

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Following this thread.

 

I used CW with my then 7th grader.  It was just too much for us.  I'm going to start again with my others who are younger, and we are planning to use CAP.  I'm interested to hear what others are doing.  I'm feeling very strongly about using the progym, and am trying to nail down our progression.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I am using this program with my 7th graders: http://www.writingtheclassicalway.com/. The program is used in 7th and 8th grade at the authors' school, so your student is at the the target grade-level. 

 

-Amber

 

This does look interesting! I really like CAP's W&R for my younger, but its release schedule will be too slow for my older.  I like how this runs through the progym targeted right at the junior high, pre-rhetoric crowd.  Hmmm..........

[Clear Creek]

This does look interesting! I really like CAP's W&R for my younger, but its release schedule will be too slow for my older.  I like how this runs through the progym targeted right at the junior high, pre-rhetoric crowd.  Hmmm..........

 

I have been pondering the same idea since I saw the link. I like the idea of completing the progym before high school, and the preview of the student textbook on Amazon seemed to be very thorough, but moved quickly. At the very least, I am going to get a copy of the textbook so I can see the bigger picture of where W&R is going, since CAP's early books match the part of the textbook I previewed quite closely.

 

Decisions, decisions....

[Chrysalis Academy]

I know, right? I'm thinking I might do the same thing.  What's one more writing program among friends? Although I do think I may need earthquake-reinforcement for my stack of writing books.  :001_rolleyes:

[Penguin]

I know, right? I'm thinking I might do the same thing. What's one more writing program among friends? Although I do think I may need earthquake-reinforcement for my stack of writing books. :001_rolleyes:

If we could go through just the second workbook for 8th grade, I think that I (ahem) need this one on my writing stack. The good news is that Amazon uk carried it. The bad news is that it is nearly twice the American price- boo on that.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I wonder how this compares to Lively Art of Writing?  Like, which would be more challenging/better to do first? It goes through the whole Progym, LAoW doesn't, but seems to focus on developing a thesis and on style.  It seems like they might be complementary but not redundant.

 

I guess I can wait till it comes in the mail and all my questions will be answered . . .  :leaving:

[Crimson Wife]

I didn't feel that LAoW did very much in the way of helping with thesis development when we did it last fall. It was a good overview of the basics of essay-writing and I'm glad to have taken DD through it. But I wouldn't say that it focused on developing a strong thesis. That's the area where my DD struggles most in terms of her expository writing.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hm, ok, that's good feedback.  I have to admit, when I look at LAoW I'm not all that excited about it, but it has gotten such good reviews here in the past . . . good to know that you didn't feel like it focused on the thesis development part.  That's what we need to work on too.  Have you found anything you like for that?

[Clear Creek]

I didn't feel that LAoW did very much in the way of helping with thesis development when we did it last fall. It was a good overview of the basics of essay-writing and I'm glad to have taken DD through it. But I wouldn't say that it focused on developing a strong thesis. That's the area where my DD struggles most in terms of her expository writing.

 

 

Hm, ok, that's good feedback.  I have to admit, when I look at LAoW I'm not all that excited about it, but it has gotten such good reviews here in the past . . . good to know that you didn't feel like it focused on the thesis development part.  That's what we need to work on too.  Have you found anything you like for that?

 

Just call me the enabler.

 

Writing With a Thesis.

 

I found it by chance on Amazon a few weeks ago and ordered it on a whim. I think it will work perfectly for thesis development, though I will be waiting until high school to use it. Not that my oldest couldn't do it before then, but I think she will get the most out of it when she is just a little bit more mature and solidly in the rhetoric stage.

 

ETA: The newest edition has the look inside feature, and it looks almost exactly like the edition I have (the 10th).

[Twigs]

:bigear:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Funny, I'm re-reading this too, and I just ordered Writing With a Thesis!

 

My current plan is to have dd work through Lively Art of Writing and Writing the Classical Way.  I got the Ancient workbook.  I agree, some of the content is pretty religious but I can modify assignments.  It's definitely more religious than CAP's W&R, for example.  But I like what I'm seeing so far.  

 

Then I have Writing With a Thesis and Common Threads: Core Readings by Method and Theme (which lewelma is using with her 8th grader) ordered, and will decide what to do next once I've seen them both.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1457625318/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Penguin]

Giggle... I am making a trip to my mom's house in the USA in October, and Common Threads is already there waiting for me. Hmmm, maybe I still have time to order Writing with a Thesis.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Giggle... I am making a trip to my mom's house in the USA in October, and Common Threads is already there waiting for me. Hmmm, maybe I still have time to order Writing with a Thesis.

 

 

:lol:  Great minds . . . . 

[Penguin]

Ok, for $4.99 why not? I have this whole stack of bargain books waiting for me at my mom's and Writing with a Thesis will now be on top, LOL.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Just got my copy of Writing with a Thesis.  I really like it!!!  It will definitely figure into our near future plans . . . 

[warneral]

A writing the Classical Way looks awesome!

[Space station]

Any feedback from those of you that tried out "Writing the Classical Way" this year? Considering for my 7th grader next year.

Thanks!

[Chrysalis Academy]

We've just dabbled with it a bit, so I can't give you a comprehensive review.  Shannon is working on Lively Art of Writing and learning to write essays at the moment, and I decided that this is more valuable at this point than working through all the progym exercises -for her, and where she is at as a writer.  After this she will use Writing with a Thesis, which will hit the different styles of writing, but all from the context of creating a thesis-driven essay.  I think we will do this instead of Writing the Classical Way, although we will continue to pull exercises from it here and there.  

 

That said, I think it's a good option for a 7th grader, particularly if they don't click with, or aren't ready for, something like Lively Art of Writing.  Or even a 6th grader, with the idea of going slowly and spreading it out over two years.  It's a viable alternative to WWS, certainly, and will lead to solid rhetorical skills.  There aren't a ton of good options out there for this age group, IMO, and this is definitely a good option.

 

It does have a lot of Christian content, FWIW.  

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[Space station]

Thanks!  Part of why I am considering it is because my daughter is obsessed with Ancient Greece and I thought she would like writing from classical examples better than from WWS2.  Do you think this would fit the bill in that respect?  She did WWS1 last year and has been writing across curriculum this year.  My older daughter is doing LAoW and loves it, but I don't think younger will like it as well.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, it definitely has lots of writing topics & examples from Ancient Greece.  It sounds like it might be a very good fit for your dd!  I think it is complementary to WWS - the first couple of chapters, on Narration and Description, will cover similar material, but the rest of the chapters will be new.  The chapter on organizing paragraphs is good; I thought WWS's intro to outlining was better.  

[Space station]

Thanks for your help, Chrysalis! I received the books yesterday, and they do look like they will work well for my daughter. Some WWS1 review (a good thing), but then lots of new skills to develop. I was a little hesitant about the biblical material you mentioned, but they seem to be truly approached as writing models rather than trying to teach a certain doctrine. Was that your impression, too?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, I think that's it - the biblical material is presented as writing models. Which is fine by me - the Bible is a totally legit ancient text, and literacy/knowledge of ancient texts is one of my goals, so it doesn't bother me to have it used as writing models.   I haven't run across anything preachy or proseletyzing at all.  

[Space station]

I emailed the Writing the Classical Way folks this morning about 8am to ask for the teacher's resources for this program. They emailed me back in about 30 minutes with the complete teacher's answer key (208 pages) in PDF, as well as Essay prompts for each chapter for free. Now I will have my own workbook copy to refer to on the iPad without having to look over my daughter's shoulder. She also included these scheduling tips, which I will copy here for anyone else who might be considering the program.

 

"As far as pacing, we wrote the books with more material than we could cover in one year to allow us to pick and choose based on our students' abilities. Generally, we taught the first two-thirds of the Ancient workbook in 7th grade and the last two-thirds of the medieval workbook in eighth grade, covering each chapter in 2-4 weeks.

 

For chapter 2, I would recommend choosing about half the exercises to do, and then move on to the rest of the book unless your children are really interested in the chapter. (When Eileen teaches this curriculum, she does half the chapter in 7th grade and the other half in 8th grade.)

 

Appendix A can be taught at your discretion--some years we have classes that need a basic grammar refresher, so on years that we teach the appendix, it usually comes anywhere between chapters 3 and 8. "

[kiwik]

Nice people!