Interesting webinar on anxiety in ASD and OCD

[PeterPan]

Wednesday, June 25th:Anxiety & OCD in ASD

Conventional psychiatric medications, including SSRIs and benzodiazepines, may not be effective for everyone with anxiety disorders. Others may find only partial relief with these medications or experience unpleasant side effects. Dr. Chandra will explore a whole-body approach to identifying the core imbalances underlying anxiety disorders, including the gut-brain connection, hormonal imbalances, immune system dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction, and methylation defects. Dr. Chandra will discuss holistic and non-pharmaceutical ways to treat anxiety by addressing these underlying metabolic imbalances using a combination of dietary changes, herbal medicines, nutritional supplements, and other natural approaches.  REGISTER

                                                                                       

Dr. Chandra is a board certified psychiatrist who uses an integrative and holistic approach to help those with challenging psychological and behavioral issues. She has an undergraduate degree from Harvard and a medical degree from Yale University. After medical school, she completed a psychiatry residency at the Massachusetts General Hospital/McLean Hospital combined program at Harvard Medical School. She also has extensive training in integrative and holistic approaches. She has spoken at numerous conferences, including the Advisory Board on Autism and Related Disorders, the Autism Society of America, and the Autism Research Institute. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know this is cheating but I always wish that I could just get the bullet points of what they recommend without having to read or listen to anything!  

[maize]

I know this is cheating but I always wish that I could just get the bullet points of what they recommend without having to read or listen to anything!

Maybe some generous soul will listen in and take notes for all of us! I never can get through a webinar without multiple interruptions.

[sbgrace]

I'm bad with absorbing info through webinars, but this sounds interesting to me. My son has a lot of that list. I've got an appt that day, but I am going to try to get most of it before I leave.

[wapiti]

I think this is her website http://www.wholechildwellness.com/links.htm

[Princess Ariel]

I am interested, too, but have an appointment for a child at that time.  If someone wants to share what they heard, I would be most grateful.

[kbutton]

I am interested, too, but have an appointment for a child at that time.  If someone wants to share what they heard, I would be most grateful.

 

Me too.

[PeterPan]

I just noticed ARI has archives of past webinars!  Presumably they'll record and archive this one as well, so you can go back at your convenience.  :)

 

http://ariconference.com/?cat=29

[Jennifer-72]

I am listening now. It does say it will be made available later this week.

[PeterPan]

Awesome, isn't it?  Just a flood of info!  Is there anything you think you might try or change as a result?

[wapiti]

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[dsmith]

Thanks for the heads up! It was a lot of info to take in and the slides were shown so briefly, so I will definitely be re-watching and taking copious notes. I only saw your post as the webinar was starting and came in on the tail-end of the SSRI discussion. She mentioned some issues that we've been experiencing with Prozac so I'm very interested in seeing what I missed.

[PeterPan]

Y'all will have to update me later.  We are headed to a psych appt in a few minutes re: ocd.  (This is a "Psy D", not an MD and not a PhD, but the MD who got me the name referred to this person as a "neuropsych."  Whatever.  Need to eat lunch and get going.)

Easy.  Stress, inflammation, nutrient deficiencies, gut dysbiosis, chronic infections, etc. are behind anxiety and we should view anxiety as a symptom, not the problem itself.  She then put up a zillion images to blow your mind on it.  

 

But that whole idea of anxiety as the symptom and something else as the underlying cause is an interesting way to start.  Problem is, she basically got to the thought that all the things help by improving neurogenesis and that neurogenesis has a LAG between when it happens and when the anxiety, etc. improves.  So basically when you start something new, you have to be willing to stick with it a while.

 

Magnesium turns out to be her super-fav place to start, because it's generally well-tolerated.  She was a huge fan of probiotics, saliva cortisol testing, etc.  After she got through her usual list, she went into some side things like using lavender in a diffuser.  Oh, and she says the parents should be looked at for PTSD, especially the moms, that the stress of that is very real.  Her inclusion of EMF is interesting.  My dd has lower tone and seems to struggle more with things than ds, and she was born to me while we were living under high tension power lines.  The lines made me very sick, so I think there's something to this psych's assertion that it set things in motion.  Now how to UNDO that is a good question.  But definitely lots of dot-connecting going on with her talk, wow.  She went through vitamins, herbs, etc.  It was all pretty generic and left callers asking how they actually get help to do this.  

 

In general, lots of dot-connecting, a HUGE motivation to work even harder on gut stuff, etc.  Phosphatydl serine caught my eye, because I've heard of it but hadn't pursued it.  There was some kind of rosemary oil that acts as a beta blocker till chill the sympathetic nervous reaction and hence chill the anxiety.  Just wild.  She likes the Gershon (The Second Brain ) book.  She talked about the need to get our omega 3:6 closer to 1:1, and that seems like an easy thing to work on by adding more walnuts instead of pecans.  I think she said they got a bump in speech with rhodiola rosea (an herb), so that caught my eye.

 

Good stuff!

 

Btw, ds hasn't wet in two days since I started him on magnesium.  If that is all it takes, you deserve a big SMOOCH!   :001_wub: 

[PeterPan]

Btw, she had diagrams showing this deal with the sympathetic nervous system is why kids are inflexible.  (physical location, physical problem, not volitional)  Then she had charts showing elevated coritsol levels post-stress is spectrum vs. NT and why it takes so long for them to come back down.  Literally anything you do to reduce that stress reaction, from her clinical perspective, was going to be good.

[Jennifer-72]

Easy. Stress, inflammation, nutrient deficiencies, gut dysbiosis, chronic infections, etc. are behind anxiety and we should view anxiety as a symptom, not the problem itself. She then put up a zillion images to blow your mind on it.

 

But that whole idea of anxiety as the symptom and something else as the underlying cause is an interesting way to start. Problem is, she basically got to the thought that all the things help by improving neurogenesis and that neurogenesis has a LAG between when it happens and when the anxiety, etc. improves. So basically when you start something new, you have to be willing to stick with it a while.

 

Magnesium turns out to be her super-fav place to start, because it's generally well-tolerated. She was a huge fan of probiotics, saliva cortisol testing, etc. After she got through her usual list, she went into some side things like using lavender in a diffuser. Oh, and she says the parents should be looked at for PTSD, especially the moms, that the stress of that is very real. Her inclusion of EMF is interesting. My dd has lower tone and seems to struggle more with things than ds, and she was born to me while we were living under high tension power lines. The lines made me very sick, so I think there's something to this psych's assertion that it set things in motion. Now how to UNDO that is a good question. But definitely lots of dot-connecting going on with her talk, wow. She went through vitamins, herbs, etc. It was all pretty generic and left callers asking how they actually get help to do this.

 

In general, lots of dot-connecting, a HUGE motivation to work even harder on gut stuff, etc. Phosphatydl serine caught my eye, because I've heard of it but hadn't pursued it. There was some kind of rosemary oil that acts as a beta blocker till chill the sympathetic nervous reaction and hence chill the anxiety. Just wild. She likes the Gershon (The Second Brain ) book. She talked about the need to get our omega 3:6 closer to 1:1, and that seems like an easy thing to work on by adding more walnuts instead of pecans. I think she said they got a bump in speech with rhodiola rosea (an herb), so that caught my eye.

 

Good stuff!

 

Btw, ds hasn't wet in two days since I started him on magnesium. If that is all it takes, you deserve a big SMOOCH! :001_wub:

Well of course I know we listened to the same webinar, but it is uncanny how similar we are with our take aways. Even down to what I think will be our next supplements. I really think we are going to try that Phosphatydlserine next. We do magnesium here and have since he was very young. I previously used zinc as well but stopped after he started eating well. I am thinking I may add that back.

 

I also really liked her thought that it should be looked at like a symptom and the importance mindfulness strategies.

[PeterPan]

Yup, I've never felt like ds was a good eater.  He's not a horrible eater, but he's just not a good, dependable eater who mows through stuff.  When he was little it was the low tone thing.  Sometimes I've wondered if it was an attention/distractability thing.  Her mention of zinc really caught my eye.  With a kid that little, you'd be talking about a really low dose to get a therapeutic effect.  We should google for foods high in zinc...  Or alternately I could grind up a good quality multi mineral I have that has zinc in it.  But I think that also has iodine (my guess without checking) and I doubt he needs much iodine, mercy, lol.  

 

Well I'll go google that.

 

Btw, I think that whole discussion we had with yllek on phosphatidylserine a couple years ago and how it is derived from lecithin was what got me started feeding him more eggs.  At the time it did seem to give him a bump .  (we were giving him 2-3 eggs a day, so a significant amount) 

 

Wheat germ and pumpkin seeds are both looking like good sources.  We make a halvah recipe with honey, tahini, wheat germ, ground sunflower seeds.  It would be super easy to use a blend of pumpkin and sunflower seeds to bring in more zinc.  You have to grind nuts for little kids to get much out of them anyway.  Otherwise they won't chew well and it will go through undigested.  The nice thing is you can use a scoop and roll the halvah into balls, making a consistent dose.  So then you just pop the bowl of balls in your frig and whip them out for a yummy mid-morning snack.  Dose of zinc in, child happy.  

 

Probably explains why the nutritionist forever has me eating pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds.  I always grind them to dust and pour over my cereal.  I don't do it for ds, because well I just thought it was weird, lol.  He's pretty chilled right now btw, but it's kind of interesting to think what you could do with that medicinally, loading them up with foods that reduce inflammation when you realize they're having a hard time.  Oh, but this was for hunger.  Well dude, too inspiring.  That will be easy to add to his diet!

[Mukmuk]

Thanks for the update, OhE! I couldn't listen in, but you've provided a wealth of information.

 

The halvah recipe sounds delish!

[wapiti]

Easy.  Stress, inflammation, nutrient deficiencies, gut dysbiosis, chronic infections, etc. are behind anxiety and we should view anxiety as a symptom, not the problem itself.  She then put up a zillion images to blow your mind on it.  

 

Thanks - I'm hoping to listen to this today

 

In general, lots of dot-connecting, a HUGE motivation to work even harder on gut stuff, etc.  Phosphatydl serine caught my eye, because I've heard of it but hadn't pursued it.  There was some kind of rosemary oil that acts as a beta blocker till chill the sympathetic nervous reaction and hence chill the anxiety.  Just wild.  She likes the Gershon (The Second Brain ) book.  She talked about the need to get our omega 3:6 closer to 1:1, and that seems like an easy thing to work on by adding more walnuts instead of pecans

 

 

Good luck with the mag!  For my ds and bedwetting, it's like magic.  The ped thinks it's just due to the mag citrate helping the constipation, but IMO it has some sort of independent action.  Keeping my fingers crossed for you - maybe it'll even help something else.

[wapiti]

.

[Jennifer-72]

As it turns out, I don't have time to listen to this right now, but did she say anything about strep/PANDAS regarding OCD?  (this is controversial; ds's labwork came back today, strep antibodies very high, well out-of-range and I'm too busy freaking out, wanting to get started on fixing this ASAP)

 

Yes, she does talk about PANDAS being one of the reasons behind the symptoms of anxiety, obsessions and compulsions.   She doesn't go into much detail though. While I am not happy to hear of your son's findings, hopefully treating the PANDAS will bring results for him and answer a big part of the puzzle.

[Princess Ariel]

Just watched this today.  It was great with lots to think about. I know I could benefit from listening again.

 

 I am wondering about using magnesium for my dd.  She just went back on a SSRI this summer as her anxiety was escalating again.  There has been a mild improvement but  I am wondering how adding this or even some of this other suggestions, one at a time as she mentions,  might make a difference for her.  She goes back next week to check on her progress with the new med  and I will bring it up. I was considering asking about adding it anyhow due to her monthly cramps which were bad this month (age 13). She isn't a great eater but is gluten free and  she has a long way to go to what I would consider healthy eating.  It is so hard to change someone like this who is sooooo set in her ways due to the ASD diagnosis and also because of her age.

 

I found the pdf print out to be helpful in that I didn't have to work so hard to take notes! 

[sbgrace]

How much magnesium are people giving/what form? The upper tolerable limits I see everywhere are really low. My instinct is my son needs more, but I've hesitated to bump him up.

 

Phosphatidylserine is helpful for ADHD too, I think? She mentioned it for other things (what?) I've been considering it, though I just made a psych. appointment to maybe try a non-stimulant prescription.

 

Did she mention glutamine (excess as a cause) and/or gluthione boosting things as treatment?

 

I am so looking forward to seeing this!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I take magnesium and it has helped my own anxiety.  I take Natural Calm (citrusy powder you mix with hot water to make a warm drink).  I take 1 tsp. in the am. and 1 tsp. in the pm before bed.  All together that is about 400 mg.  I do not get bowel problems when splitting it like that.  (Someone mentioned this as a way to do it on this board.)   My ds refuses to drink the Natural Calm so he takes magnesium in tablet form. He takes a 400 mg. tablet in the am and then a bit more that is part of a general vitamin pill.  He hasn't had bowel problems either.  

[PeterPan]

How much magnesium are people giving/what form? The upper tolerable limits I see everywhere are really low. My instinct is my son needs more, but I've hesitated to bump him up.

 

Phosphatidylserine is helpful for ADHD too, I think? She mentioned it for other things (what?) I've been considering it, though I just made a psych. appointment to maybe try a non-stimulant prescription.

 

Did she mention glutamine (excess as a cause) and/or gluthione boosting things as treatment?

 

I am so looking forward to seeing this!

Generally you want to do calcium: magnesium, 2:1.  I use a brand called Food Form that a nutritionist steered me to for being very well tolerated by sensitive people.  I'm giving my ds 2 capsules calcium and 1 capsule magnesium daily.  He does not drink milk, so I've had him on the calcium a long time.  Adding in the magnesium was new but probably sensible.  

 

And yes, you're correct, if you take too much magnesium you can harm someone. (bowel blowouts, but if way higher much worse)  I heard recently on the news about a study showing it useful in large doses for migraines, but that again would be a temporary measure, not something you do constantly.  

 

I started with my nutritionist many years ago, literally the week of 9/11.  The changes I've gotten with food and supplements like this are definite, but they definitely take TIME. With me, things are better every year than the year they were before.  It's not like you just add a supplement or tweak something and BAM, even though sometimes it can be.  I think it fits with what the p-doc was saying, that there's a lag between the neurogenesis (the changes the supplements or meds are making) and the improvement of symptoms.  

 

I just checked.  The magnesium I'm giving him has 400 mg in 4 capsules.  I'm giving ds 1 capsule daily, so that's 100 mg.  He's 43.7 lbs.  If I bump his calcium up, then I'll also bump his magnesium to keep it proportional.  I open the capsules onto a spoon, since he can't swallow capsules.

 

Adding: I take 6 FF calcium a day, per the nutritionist, and sometimes she has me take magnesium as well.  When I'm on magnesium, it's never more than 3 capsules divided over breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  I think the calcium probably has a dab of magnesium in it to.  Scratch that.  The calcium does *not* have magnesium in it.  The D however does, and it has 50 mg per capsule.  I take 6 of those a day (again, per my nutritionist, keeps me spritely with my great baptist clothing and lack of sun) and that's another 300 mg.  So we alternate between 300 mg and 600 mg, depending on what she's doing with me at the time.  I've never seen her put me on more than that, and that's an adult.

[PeterPan]

How much magnesium are people giving/what form? The upper tolerable limits I see everywhere are really low. My instinct is my son needs more, but I've hesitated to bump him up.

 

Phosphatidylserine is helpful for ADHD too, I think? She mentioned it for other things (what?) I've been considering it, though I just made a psych. appointment to maybe try a non-stimulant prescription.

 

Did she mention glutamine (excess as a cause) and/or gluthione boosting things as treatment?

 

I am so looking forward to seeing this!

Yes, she did mention glutamine and glutathione briefly.  The only thing she really tossed out was an herb that indirectly helps them by promoting cell permeability to help with eliminating toxins.  Sometimes my nutritionist has had me take glutathione (again, Food Form brand, well-tolerated) and it definitely helps.  Thing is, that would be insanely expensive to do all the time.  We switched me over to eating largely organic, and that helps.  So the main time I need glutathione is when I go on a trip and eat a lot of conventional.  Just easier to keep it out than to pay to get it out, kwim?  But it definitely helps a bit when you need it.  You can also clean your system with cranberry-pomegranate juice and that makes me feel better.  However that was something I took YEARS to build up to tolerating.  For some reason pomegranate juice is an insanely strong detoxer.  (Well that and I was really sick when I started.)

[wapiti]

Well there are different forms of magnesium, some of which work a little differently than others. We use citrate (NOW powder) 

[PeterPan]

Wapiti, I'm sorry you're heading into a bad day!  Maybe go back to bed and reboot?  Go out for breakfast and cancel anything you were trying to do today?   :grouphug: 

 

I didn't realize you have PANDAS going on.  At least it's something you can work on...

[wapiti]

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[kbutton]

wapiti, sorry things don't seem to be coming together well right now. I think I would risk mentioning it to your current ped, but try not to throw out PANDA right away. Some kids colonize strep, and then they get actual infections during times of stress. That part should be non-controversial. Maybe you can start there and say you suspect something is on it's way, and could the doc do something about it.

 

We have some folks at church who've dealt with PANDAS. If you can get into a good doctor, they will help you with the protocol, AND they will still be able to offer other options to try as well. I think our friend's child is on blood pressure meds to help with the OCD/anxiety. (There is a podcast about using meds like this to treat fight or flight responses/anxiety, etc. from a while back on Coffee Klatch special needs radio).

[Guest]

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[LaughingCat]

I have successfully fed DD the older (super picky) the Mg Citrate you can buy in bottle form in the laxative section - by putting it in lemonade.  That way I can control how much goes in there and it's quite cheap  (I was using it for reflux though - switched to a probiotic drink appears to have worked just as well).

 

I have had a reaction to Mg before though - I bought some MgCitrate pills at Costco thinking I would take them (I have taken other Mg -not citrate- in the past) but I had a strong reaction to these particular pills.  Felt light headed, almost dizzy for hours  (no stool issues as you would expect if I took too much) -- and I only took 2 pills 2 days apart (1 on Sunday I think and 1 on Wednesday) - slight reaction on Sunday and major reaction on Wednesday.

[Hannahs4]

What about the NAC supplement for OCD? I am curious wether she mentioned using this. Some other threads on here make it sound like the best thing.

[PeterPan]

What about the NAC supplement for OCD? I am curious wether she mentioned using this. Some other threads on here make it sound like the best thing.

I don't recall if she mentioned NAC, but it's a precursor to glutathione.  I used to take NAC (back when I was very chemically sensitive and sick) and now I just take glutathione when I've been eating too much conventional food.  http://www.foodform.com/cart/foodform-glutathione.html  It's way too expensive to give a kid just to try, oy.  That particular brand is what I use and it's quite good.  I don't need it all the time now, just on occasions like when I travel and eat a lot out and have been in pesticided hotels, etc.