Defiant, perfectionist, very bright and driving me crazy *vent*

[TheBugs]

I have to vent about my son because I love him dearly and he is driving me crazy today. Perhaps some others could give me advice on how to deal with this.

 

Almost everyone who has experience with talking with my son or working him in an academic setting has told me they think he might be gifted. But I haven't had him (or his twin sister who is also very bright) tested and I don't think I will. My son has an almost photographic memory. He can talk about quite complicated subjects, but he doesn't become obsessed with topics or dominate conversations. He is just very bright and quite lovely. He took a reading diagnostic test with a certified teacher last month and his reading and comprehension show he has mastered 8th grade reading (he is 7). So we are working above grade level on a few things.

 

The problem is that he is such a strong willed and defiant child with me. If I ask him to put his work book on his desk, he will insist on putting it on my desk and continue on with his plan even though I am saying "do what I say, no not on my desk..." because it seems he thinks his idea is better than mine, so he will do what he wants even though it is against my wishes.  He is like this with everything. If I ask him to come to the table to work with me, he will not come when I ask. He will do something else and will not come until I lose my temper.

 

He also refuses to do certain assignments because he says he can't. In his spelling workbook it asked for a few sentences about a statue he has seen. He refused to do it. He said he has never seen a statue. (Which is so not true, we looked at a very large statue two days ago!) He can't remember, he doesn't know what to write. He has a big tantrum.  I lost my temper with him. I try to be understanding, because I think he is being a perfectionist, but from all the other defiant actions that came before this incident, I am at the end of the fuse. I told him to just skip the assignment. It is like this all the time with the little spelling sentences. I know he can write very well, but he won't do it. He also takes a very long time to do certain tasks.

 

Any advice for dealing with this child. Sorry for the rambling post, but I needed to get it off my chest. I don't like complaining about my children, but sometimes they really drive me crazy.

 

 

[zarabellesmom]

Welllllllllllllll... I wish I could be helpful, but all I can really do is sympathize. 

 

I love the list of traits that describe gifted at the Hoagies Gifted Site:

 

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/What_is_Gifted/characgt.htm

 

It makes gifted children sound so charming, sweet, and everything you could possibly want in a child.

 

But our reality is that we are on an emotional roller coaster ride almost 100% of the time. My two are up and down and my youngest is incredibly defiant just to prove she can be, I guess. I wish you luck finding answers.

 

Gifted doesn't necessarily equal reasonable.

 

Teresa

[TheBugs]

Welllllllllllllll... I wish I could be helpful, but all I can really do is sympathize. 

 

I love the list of traits that describe gifted at the Hoagies Gifted Site:

 

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/What_is_Gifted/characgt.htm

 

It makes gifted children sound so charming, sweet, and everything you could possibly want in a child.

 

But our reality is that we are on an emotional roller coaster ride almost 100% of the time. My two are up and down and my youngest is incredibly defiant just to prove she can be, I guess. I wish you luck finding answers.

 

Gifted doesn't necessarily equal reasonable.

 

Teresa

Thank you for the sympathy and the list:) Both my children share many of those characteristics, but my son definitely is into the questioning authority. So much so that he will actually laugh at some of my requests. And it is a sincere laugh, not sarcastic, he thinks I am being funny.

[Five More Minutes]

:grouphug:  I have no help to offer --  just sympathy. I *hate* it when I get snappy at my kiddo because she has suddenly decided to act as if everything is beyond her comprehension.

 

But she does, and I do, and I come here to find out that I'm not alone.

 

I also stock up on dark chocolate for days like this.

[TheBugs]

[quote l

 

I also stock up on dark chocolate for days like this.Lol. Some chocolate and chamomile tea has helped.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The problem is that he is such a strong willed and defiant child with me.

 

until I lose my temper.

 

He has a big tantrum. I lost my temper with him.

 

I try to be understanding, because I think he is being a perfectionist, but from all the other defiant actions that came before this incident, I am at the end of the fuse.

In my opinion, this is the heart of the problem. But...

 

...I'm not alone.

Same here. I am not holier than thou, OP. I promise. :D

 

I have a defiant button-pusher. I had to disconnect those buttons, or at least hide them. Deep, deep breaths. Before reacting. (Before is key. LOL) The thing that probably helped me change things more than anything else was to hear my own tone come out of my kids' mouths and, in that second before losing it, to realize that was my modeling at work. Humbling. My short fuse and lost temper sets an example. I always say that when you have a negative cycle with a kid, you can be assured that meaningful change will not emanate from the kid. You must make the change. And it is hard(!!!!!), but I cannot expect my kid to possess more self-control than I show.

 

About taking a long time to do things, and resistance in general, my kids are most resistant when they do not find the material engaging. Now some people are going to say kids should learn to get through any work you assign them, even if they find it boring. "That's life" and all... I say (especially with gifted children), why make a fight out of something that could be a joy? Do you talk to him about school? What he likes most? Least? What he might like more of? What he dislikes? You can talk about tweaks to certain subjects to make them more palatable. The thing about that with gifted kids is that they may well desire greater challenge than what you have been doing. My oldest in particular is bored and ornery when underchallenged. We had some big behavior problems (very similar to what you describe) when he was not engaged. Ironically (or not), he now regularly and willingly works through some pretty banal stuff because he sees the point to it and it fits in with greater goals that he took part in creating.

 

Anyway, seeking my kids' input, showing them pre-vetted curricula and letting them choose from those, taking into account their strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes, etc. was the best thing for getting their buy-in. Not only does this affect our day to day interactions in a positive way, it (more importantly) makes them feel like the drivers of their own education. Also, I started to figure out that defiance was one very big symptom of a kid not feeling that his voice mattered. It's a real attention getter, if you think about it. It is pretty much the same as screaming pay attention to me! :lol: The more I actively seek out and show that I value my kids' opinions, the less defiance I see. (This might be a good place to note that I am still ultimately in charge, being the parental unit. :tongue_smilie: My kids do not always get everything their way, and things aren't always roses and sunshine, but everyone does feel heard and understood.)

 

So anyway, I strive for flexibility. Go in with flexibility in mind and do not ever start a battle on a hill that is not worth dying on. Being flexible about what you assign and with the amount of chatting you do and help you offer can help you keep from snapping. Personally, I would not have gone to battle over the statue thing. I would have brought up a Google image of the statue. I am sure you were right. You knew it and he knew it, but in the end a mountain was made of a molehill. And again some people will say that he shouldn't get away with digging his heels in when you know he is wrong, but. But, but, but, really he played you. He dug his heels in and got a reaction. Score. Eliminating your reactions, refusing to engage off-point in the heat of the moment, should be your new #1 goal.

 

As far as writing goes, nothing has been better for us as teacher/student than me modeling the process and writing together as much as possible. All my kids like writing together. One of my kids thrives with buddy math, enjoying both the camaraderie and competition.

[TheBugs]

So anyway, I strive for flexibility. Go in with flexibility in mind and do not ever start a battle on a hill that is not worth dying on. Being flexible about what you assign and with the amount of chatting you do and help you offer can help you keep from snapping. Personally, I would not have gone to battle over the statue thing. I would have brought up a Google image of the statue. I am sure you were right. You knew it and he knew it, but in the end a mountain was made of a molehill. And again some people will say that he shouldn't get away with digging his heels in when you know he is wrong, but. But, but, but, really he played you. He dug his heels in and got a reaction. Score. Eliminating your reactions, refusing to engage off-point in the heat of the moment, should be your new #1 goal.

 

As far as writing goes, nothing has been better for us as teacher/student than me modeling the process and writing together as much as possible. All my kids like writing together. One of my kids thrives with buddy math, enjoying both the camaraderie and competition.

 

Thank you :)  I totally agree with you that me losing my temper is the wrong way to go and that I need to eliminate my reactions. 

 

One time  the three of us did all write the same assignment together and the twins really enjoyed it. They love when I work with them, so that is great advice and I had forgotten about that until you brought it up.

 

I feel bad because I feel like I have been trying to educate them on auto pilot and I have sapped the fun out of learning. I have had a lot of personal stress and pain emanating from my side of the family (my parents and sisters) which has nothing to do with my kids but has sapped my mental energy. I've organized what I feel like they have to do everyday to make things easier for myself. Sometimes I feel like if we don't cover these spelling words and incorporate them into a sentence or do all of these math exercises so I can write that in their portfolio some sort of doom and gloom will occur.

[basketcase]

With my defiant kid, it's connected with his perfectionism and a desire to have some control, as some previous posters have said. I find that frustration builds in him, until I feel like everything is wrong with what we're learning. When he sticks his feet in over doing even his favorite school work, I know something's really wrong.

 

Often if I have a chat with him about what's bothering him about school, I can pinpoint a few issues. Maybe he feels like he isn't good at writing, his vocabulary work isn't fun, he doesn't like his piano songs, and his sister's math books have more games than his do. Sometimes he's just in a bad mood because one of his siblings got to have a play date and he didn't. (I repeat each issue back to him to show I've heard him, then ask "Is there more?" until I feel like I've got most of it.) If I address just one of the "not fun" complaints, that usually takes care of all of them. I think those complaints really have to do with his desire for some control. I might make a crossword puzzle for his vocabulary words or add some math games to his work. The protests about all the subjects go away for a while.

 

(Feeling like he isn't good at writing is a different kind of concern, and we're still working on that. I'm planning to add some more detailed writing instruction next year. He's been doing great with perfectionism in other areas, and I think this has to do with his need for some more direction as much as his concern about doing things perfectly.)

 

I also have had success letting him choose his school schedule. Of course this doesn't work for everyone, but I've switched to a weekly checklist for my kids. Last week, this kid did all his math and history in the first two days. Writing was done on Friday night, which was pretty telling. He's much happier and more motivated with more control over his schedule.

[Cammom220]

I have to vent about my son because I love him dearly and he is driving me crazy today. Perhaps some others could give me advice on how to deal with this.

 

Almost everyone who has experience with talking with my son or working him in an academic setting has told me they think he might be gifted. But I haven't had him (or his twin sister who is also very bright) tested and I don't think I will. My son has an almost photographic memory. He can talk about quite complicated subjects, but he doesn't become obsessed with topics or dominate conversations. He is just very bright and quite lovely. He took a reading diagnostic test with a certified teacher last month and his reading and comprehension show he has mastered 8th grade reading (he is 7). So we are working above grade level on a few things.

 

The problem is that he is such a strong willed and defiant child with me. If I ask him to put his work book on his desk, he will insist on putting it on my desk and continue on with his plan even though I am saying "do what I say, no not on my desk..." because it seems he thinks his idea is better than mine, so he will do what he wants even though it is against my wishes.  He is like this with everything. If I ask him to come to the table to work with me, he will not come when I ask. He will do something else and will not come until I lose my temper.

 

He also refuses to do certain assignments because he says he can't. In his spelling workbook it asked for a few sentences about a statue he has seen. He refused to do it. He said he has never seen a statue. (Which is so not true, we looked at a very large statue two days ago!) He can't remember, he doesn't know what to write. He has a big tantrum.  I lost my temper with him. I try to be understanding, because I think he is being a perfectionist, but from all the other defiant actions that came before this incident, I am at the end of the fuse. I told him to just skip the assignment. It is like this all the time with the little spelling sentences. I know he can write very well, but he won't do it. He also takes a very long time to do certain tasks.

 

Any advice for dealing with this child. Sorry for the rambling post, but I needed to get it off my chest. I don't like complaining about my children, but sometimes they really drive me crazy.

I could have written this post about my gifted seven year old son. For instance, I just asked him to pick up a huge mess (rainbow loom bands) that he left scattered on his bedroom floor. His response is to test-- Do you mean all of the bands? What if I leave 20 bands on the floor? How about fifteen? He does with how many bites he needs to consume before dessert and other hot topics. 

 

I wish I had some magic answer for you-- I think it's somewhere in a mix of methods. Consequences are important, sure, but sometimes strong willed kids won't respond to consequences when they are intent on a power struggle. I have asked my son (when I notice things escalating) to consider his next actions and the results of those actions carefully. I refuse to to argue with with him and time basically "stops" (no privileges) until he has done what I have asked. I try to remain calm (I'm an old hand- he's actually easier now than he used to be:) I strongly believe that parental calm is key to keeping a situation from escalating.

 

Ultimately, I think strong willed kids need to develop an internal compass- it's important that my son choose right because he knows it's right. We talk a lot about integrity, courage, respect, hard work and all the good things. We praise it, and show him that we value these qualities. He is coming out of the defiance, and will occasionally reflect on his choices at school and at home. I believe DS will get his emotions under better control in a few years and these issues will be behind us until he hits adolescence:) 

[kagmypts]

Consequences are important, sure, but sometimes strong willed kids won't respond to consequences when they are intent on a power struggle. I have asked my son (when I notice things escalating) to consider his next actions and the results of those actions carefully. I refuse to to argue with with him and time basically "stops" (no privileges) until he has done what I have asked. I try to remain calm (I'm an old hand- he's actually easier now than he used to be:) I strongly believe that parental calm is key to keeping a situation from escalating.

 

I could have written this about my youngest.  When people talk about children having a currency, my youngest's currency was control.  Seriously, he needed to control everything.  He would happily accept a consequence as long as it meant that he didn't have to do what was being asked.  It was exhausting.  However, as soon as we recognized his need for control, we took a few steps back and asked ourselves where we could reasonably give him control (choices).

 

In the example of picking up the Rainbow Loom bands, I would have asked my son whether he wanted to pick up all of the bands first or if he wanted to read a book.  If he chose the book, we picked up the bands as soon as he was finished with the book.  It truly was amazing how giving him some power took away a lot of our struggles.  Having said that, there were times when he just had to do what we said when we asked it of him.  Although he has a higher need of control than our other kids, I will not tolerate disrespect or outright defiance.  I found that always being a few steps ahead of him and recognizing/knowing when he was about to put his foot down was a tremendous help.  As soon he decided that he wasn't going to do something, it was over.  There was no way to "win" against his determination.  He was stubborn and defiant like nobody else I have ever seen, and if he wasn't happy with the situation, he would sabotage it for everybody else.  There were many days where I just sobbed after putting him to bed.

 

Having said all of that, he is a completely different child today.  Giving him a perceived sense of control has made all of the difference in the world.  For example in the situation about where your child does his work, give him the choice if you truly don't care where he does the work.  Before putting out any book ask him, "Where would you like to do your work?"  If I ask my child to work at his desk I expect him to do that.  However, on the days when I could care less, I give him the choice.  Because he has that choice on most days, he doesn't put up a fight when I do need him working at his desk.  In the example of statue, you could have asked him if he wanted to write about the statue that he saw two days ago or if he wanted to write about one that you could find on the internet.  I just know that for my son as soon as I dug in my heals that he dug even deeper, and for as stubborn as I am, I was never going to "win" that battle.

 

It was a long road to get here, and there were many times that I wondered if there would ever be light at the end of the tunnel.  It was not an easy or quick process, but it was very worthwhile.  It really changed the way that I parent (he is my third) and made me question where I absolutely need to draw a line in the sand.  As soon as my son saw me getting upset or angry, he realized he controlled the situation.  He had the power.  In his mind, that was victory; it didn't matter the surrounding chaos that ensued or any other consequences that followed.  As long as he had the control, he was content.  He would purposely push my buttons in order to elicit a response.  It really was a huge leap of faith for me to give him more control in his daily life, but by letting him control most of the little things, he stopped fighting the big things.  It has made our family life far more sane.

 

Good luck!

[LeahMarie]

I'm no help, but just... thanks for posting this.  I can identify and it is always nice to know I'm not alone. Somedays it really feels like I'm losing my mind.  My 5 year old has never seen me as an authority figure.  Ever. It is a constant battle.  I make solid resolves all the time to not get frustrated and raise my voice... but, really, if that worked, resolves wouldn't be plural.  Sometimes I just have to call it quits, and tell him we'll try again tomorrow.  While I feel like homeschooling him is the right thing to do because he is gifted, it is also the very reason that I am reluctant to homeschool.  I'm afraid the struggle is going to damage our relationship.  I just need to find a way to rise above it.

 

And the dark chocolate. *Definitely* the dark chocolate.

[LTBernard]

This post is SO what I needed to read right now!  My 5.5 year old DS has always pushed me, but for the last couple weeks it has gotten SOOOOO much worse.  I am not the calmest of parents and I know I need to work on not letting him push my buttons.  He is also having a lot of melt downs and what I call come aparts lately.  My least favorite thing he does is when he is completely disrespectful in front of either my mom or mother-in-law.  They have both made comments basically letting me know that I am not doing a good enough job as a mother and when he acts that way that doesn't help.  Of course, neither of them have walked in my shoes.  I know I am a more hands on mom than my mom and my mil has said I work with DS way more than she worked with her kiddos, so I can't be that horrible.

[texasmama]

I have one of these. It does improve with age/maturity.

[EndOfOrdinary]

In my previous life - before homeschooling - I worked with at risk youth, specializing in middle school/high school. The main take away that I gained from the experience is the importance of a few (like five or less) very firm rules that apply to everyone. The "apply to everyone" is really important because it eliminates the power struggle. If he can call you out as much you can him, then it is not about authority. It is about correct behavior because it is the social expectation. It is about respect of the cultural dynamics. It is no longer personal.

 

The only other big one was allowing huge amounts of choice. When choices were allowed, it again removed the power struggle. The student got to make a personal decision - within appropriate parameters - so they were not being ordered about. I wasn't telling them what to do; they were choosing. It is much harder to be blatantly defiant with yourself. My job was to figure out situations where students could feel self actualized, but still have some structure. If I explained what my personal or school needs were, then told them how I was trying to give them as much freedom as possible within those boundaries, they often saw me as helping them rather than as some enemy or authoritarian role.

 

I cannot say these worked all the time, or that everyday was rainbows and lollipops, but it greatly improved my success and reduced everyone's stress.

[Grantmom]

I just wanted to add another thought on the writing.  I think that sometimes, especially with a 7 year old, their minds are spinning so fast and are so far ahead of what they have the fine motor ability to write down quickly, that writing is just a terribly frustrating chore.  For those times when he is really resisting, you could offer to let him dictate to you and then read it back to you to be sure you got down what he wanted to say.

[Crimson Wife]

I have one of these. It does improve with age/maturity.

 

Not necessarily. If anything, the child who at 7 was sweet and compliant may turn into a bratty, oppositional PITA when puberty hormones kick in. I'm so sick of butting heads with my oldest over schoolwork that I'm about ready to let her do early college if she can get herself eligible for and accepted to the program. Life is too short to spend the next 6 years dragging her kicking and screaming through a college prep secondary program.

[PagesandFields]

I remember being a kid (like, young kid) and knowing in my heart of hearts that what I was saying was something I believed in and thought was right... and the system around me, authority, whatever it was completely disregarding my thoughts and feelings.  I try to remember that feeling when I face this.  My just hardly 5 yo is similar...  Honestly...  I think usually when he's really defiant it has nothing to do with defiance.  Reading books like "Highly Senstive Child"...  "Raising your spirited child", and "Living with Intensity" have helped...  For my little one it's usually a sign of some emotional upset... or a huge developmental stage... or not a healthy rhythm through our day... or especially of my own bad moods.  The grumpier or more overwhelmed I am?  The more horrible he gets... He's a human barometer of my emotions... Which is fan-freaking-tastic... because when i'm completely stressed about something else entirely it's guaranteed to be a horrible day with him.  

 

I've really had to work on maintaining my own mindfulness, my own center of peace...  Because I figured out that when I was rattled, or angry, he felt it and behaved worse..  It doesn't always work... but I do think it's helping... and it's reminding me that we're both people and we love each other..  its just a matter of working our way through our days while remembering that.