TOG is not a good fit. What should we do?

[JadeOrchidSong]

We trudged through ToG 1 ancient. They don't like it much. Now I don't know if we should do TOG 2 or change to something else. They are middle school age. I feel so unmotivated now. We are having summer break.

[zarabellesmom]

It's quite an expense, if you don't love it I wouldn't trudge through it. There are plenty of other curricula in the sea...or is it fish.? .

[MerryAtHope]

I agree, jump ship and look for something else. Did you like any aspects of TOG? Make a list of likes and don't likes (get feedback from each of them and also consider your needs as a teacher). Then, with those in hand, start evaluating other possibilities. I don't think every aspect of hsing has to be liked, but if the whole year felt like drudgery, that's time for a change to me. 

[LAmom]

What did they not like?  I struggled a bit through Year 2, Unit 1.  I felt it was disjointed and took lots of planning.  I don't understand the whole "it's a buffet" thing.  I am going to give Unit 2 a try, hoping I don't regret it (because I think TOG is a great program despite my slightly negative comment--just in the FOG right now...)! 

 

Do you own Year 2 already?

[boscopup]

Yeah, telling us what they didn't like and what they would like would be helpful.

 

Have you looked at Mystery of History? It's good for middle school age. I'm using it this next year because I wanted history to be simple while I focus on writing and spelling with my 5th grader. I was pleasantly surprised when I got the book. It's one book. We can read extra if we want to (I'll get library books), but all that isn't required. It doesn't have the discussion that TOG has, but it does have some activity ideas that get the kids researching things and such.

 

I liked TOG, as did my oldest son (he's a history buff and a quick reader), but I think MOH will be good for my family this coming year. And I won't have to fret about whether the library has the books we need!

[Chris in VA]

k12's Human Odyssey is readable and interesting, imo.

 

Perhaps you could do the Spine approach, like with SOTW--Read the spine (HO), pick a topic to research every couple of weeks, write a short paper/do a little project, read some historical fiction or primary sources/literature to go with. Discuss. Move thru the book at a pace that will get you to where you want to be at the end of the school year. Don't worry if projects or lit overlap into the next topic.

 

Are you wanting Med/Ren (Year 2)?

 

There are tons of interesting topics to research and things to make and explore!

 

Are they hands-on? Do they like to read?

 

In Middle School, they can start to make REAL crafts, like chain mail or authentic meals, or read books written at the time that are more advanced than the elementary-level abridged versions.

 

I'd say ditch TOG and go for what interests them!

[JadeOrchidSong]

They don't like to read several books and only part of each. They say, " why can't we just have one book, finish it and then go to the next book?" We did all Story of the World 1-4 in the last four years and followed the Activity books for activities, maps, coloring sheets, questions, narrations, the recommended supplementary readers, and enjoyed it most of the time. Then when we did TOG, there is no spine to follow and they have to read several books. They don't like the lit worksheets and they can't do the maps independently and I just let them copy the answer maps in the map CD. They don't do hands -on stuff. I did the discussion only once with ds1.

Human Odessy might be good since it is just one book.

[LAmom]

They don't like to read several books and only part of each. They say, " why can't we just have one book, finish it and then go to the next book?" We did all Story of the World 1-4 in the last four years and followed the Activity books for activities, maps, coloring sheets, questions, narrations, the recommended supplementary readers, and enjoyed it most of the time. Then when we did TOG, there is no spine to follow and they have to read several books. They don't like the lit worksheets and they can't do the maps independently and I just let them copy the answer maps in the map CD. They don't do hands -on stuff. I did the discussion only once with ds1.

Human Odessy might be good since it is just one book.

 

 

Oh no....this is what may happen here, too. It's hard for us without a spine. I think that is why MFW didn't work for us. I'd be interested to hear what you end up doing. Since I have unit 2 I'm just doing it but hesitate!

[JadeOrchidSong]

What did they not like? I struggled a bit through Year 2, Unit 1. I felt it was disjointed and took lots of planning. I don't understand the whole "it's a buffet" thing. I am going to give Unit 2 a try, hoping I don't regret it (because I think TOG is a great program despite my slightly negative comment--just in the FOG right now...)!

 

Do you own Year 2 already?

I bought Units 3 and 4 from a friend. I still need to buy Units 1 and 2. I have revised TOG 3 and TOG 4 year plans. After using Story of the World 1--4 for 4 years, it is hard to find a groove with TOG. I like the simplicity of Story of the World. I used the Activity books for all four books for questions, narrations, maps, hands-on activities, and supplementary readings for history and literature. It was flexible because I could choose books and didn't have to do any extra books if I didn't have time or interest.

With TOG, it seems disjointed. I somehow don't feel motivated to do the dialectic discussions and ds also does not have skills developed to synthesize all the info to answer the ?s.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Human Odyssey 1 has Ancient and Middle Ages both. So if I want to do HO, I will need to start with book 1 since we only did Ancient.

I am still debating if I should continue with TOG 2.

[Denise in IN]

Have you considered Biblioplan?  It has some similarities to TOG, but uses a spine (Biblioplan Companion) and is generally less complicated to use.

[melmichigan]

I bought Units 3 and 4 from a friend. I still need to buy Units 1 and 2. I have revised TOG 3 and TOG 4 year plans. After using Story of the World 1--4 for 4 years, it is hard to find a groove with TOG. I like the simplicity of Story of the World. I used the Activity books for all four books for questions, narrations, maps, hands-on activities, and supplementary readings for history and literature. It was flexible because I could choose books and didn't have to do any extra books if I didn't have time or interest.

With TOG, it seems disjointed. I somehow don't feel motivated to do the dialectic discussions and ds also does not have skills developed to synthesize all the info to answer the ?s.

A thought since you already own so many year plans.  You may want to try using one of the alternative spines listed in your year plan, often it's SOTW, Streams of Civilization, History of US, or Speilvogel's textbook depending on what level you are looking at.  Then just pick from the weekly lists like you did with SOTW. We find it helpful to do the map aids as a group.  We will often read an entire book, then pick up another, depending on the child and their preference.  It sounds to me like you are letting the year plan rule you, rather than just picking and choosing what you want to do with it.  

 

If not then sell the year plans and pick something else without guilt. :)

[warneral]

I love mystery of history. We use some homeschool in the woods CDs as supplement. We do ipad app timeline and knowledge quest maps. Sometimes I have thm do a notebook page or read some related literature. I like that when we are busy, we can still keep up by doing the minimum, and when we are on a topic of interest, they can branch out. We have done vols 1 and 2 and I have vol3 here for next year.

[JadeOrchidSong]

A thought since you already own so many year plans. You may want to try using one of the alternative spines listed in your year plan, often it's SOTW, Streams of Civilization, History of US, or Speilvogel's textbook depending on what level you are looking at. Then just pick from the weekly lists like you did with SOTW. We find it helpful to do the map aids as a group. We will often read an entire book, then pick up another, depending on the child and their preference. It sounds to me like you are letting the year plan rule you, rather than just picking and choosing what you want to do with it.

 

If not then sell the year plans and pick something else without guilt. :)

How do you do the dialectic and rhetoric discussions if you read the whole book for that week? I have not done the discussions though I always want to.

[melmichigan]

How do you do the dialectic and rhetoric discussions if you read the whole book for that week? I have not done the discussions though I always want to.

No idea with rhetoric yet, I'm still working on those readings myself. I think that will happen more as written in most cases just because the books cover units, rather than a few weeks in most cases.  The history books are often "textbookish".  Books like These Were the Greeks.  If not we will do something like what we did in dialectic and let DD rotate.   In dialectic DD would read the history, and we'd do the history questions, and then she'd read the literature book and we'd do the literature questions.  The two topics are divided in the notes, you just might be using more than one week at a time.  I actually make up workbooks for grammar and dialectic levels, so DD often just answered as she went along and we'd discuss when she was finished, whenever that turned out to be.  

 

Again, you decide how you want the year plan to work for you.  Don't be afraid to mix things up, that's the idea of a "buffet".  You make up your general plans for the year, by marking which books you will use, and you stick to it, for the most part.   :D Then you have a week where you've decided that this outside project really should get done while it's nice out, and you just do the minimum, maybe just the core history reading for that week, or gasp, just one of the spines, and leave it at that. ;)   Now, as long as you aren't doing that all the time with a rhetoric student, no harm no foul, but say your rhetoric student has big paper due and really needs some extra time, then you might check the Loom documents and skip the closest colored assignment to free up that time.  (Yeah, it's a rotten sentence, but it's late and you get the idea.)

 

It's really hard to let go of the check the box mentality.  I know, it's taken me six years, but you will feel better when you do. Best of luck!

[HS Mom in NC]

Greenleaf Guides have study guides that go with their spines Famous Men of Rome, Greece, The Middle Ages, etc. They have a few supplemental readings and geography activities, but you can skip them if you like.

 

http://www.greenleafpress.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=50&zenid=50b680bcc6bcaf7eea604203f72cd4d9

 

MapTrek is designed to have students copy from a master map onto a blank student map.

 

http://www.knowledgequestmaps.com/Integration-Guides.html

[melmichigan]

The only other thing I can say, most of the literature programs use the same books.   I giggle inside when I read comments like the one above (absolutely no offense meant) because TOG uses Famous Men of Rome and Greece in their alternative choices, I just finished planning them out for my DS next year.  Find what works for you as a teacher and go from there.  The books are secondary.

[JadeOrchidSong]

melmichigan,

Which year are you going to use in the fall? Is it very time consuming to make your own workbooks for history and lit? Do you mind sharing some of yours? I have an upper grammar ds and a dialectic ds. If I can use it a different way, I would keep TOG. Yes, we do the maps together. I pull out the Teacher Version and they copy them onto their own maps I their folders. We don't do hands-on stuff. We did quite a bit in the previous 4 year cycle with Story of the World.

[melmichigan]

melmichigan,

Which year are you going to use in the fall? Is it very time consuming to make your own workbooks for history and lit? Do you mind sharing some of yours? I have an upper grammar ds and a dialectic ds. If I can use it a different way, I would keep TOG. Yes, we do the maps together. I pull out the Teacher Version and they copy them onto their own maps I their folders. We don't do hands-on stuff. We did quite a bit in the previous 4 year cycle with Story of the World.

In the fall we are going into Y1.  I will have a child in every level, R, D, UG, LG.  I make workbooks from the student pages that are in the Loom documents.  I got the idea from someone else on the boards who posted about it on her blog.  (I'll have to look it up and post back.)  I reformat the questions so that they become a workbook with space for the kids to write their answers and combine that with the maps and any assignment sheets we will use.  I bind them with a pro click.  It does take some time but it has worked out really well in the past.  I save them on my computer, so I have the workbooks done for some of the year plans for D, and UG.  

 

ETA:   :scared: Both of the blogs I had marked are no longer accessible.  

 

<<Wiping the sweat off my brow, I was nervous there for a few minutes.>>  Try here.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks for the link! I love the name of that website by the way. You are so very helpful, melmichigan!

[kolamum]

Can't you pick a spine & book list for them each?

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yesterday I spent time to plan TOG 2. Most of the books are not available in the library. I felt overwhelmed right away for other reasons, too. So it just confirmed that I am NOT going to do it, at least this year.

So now I lean towards doing MOH Volume 2 as spine and adding in k12 Human Odyssey half of 1 and 2. We will also add some history and literature books to round it. Can you tell me where to find MOH 2 supplemental history and literature reading list?

I feel less overwhelmed now! Thank you for helping me sort it out. Thank you, warneral, for MOH suggestion. I do want to have church history integrated. That is the main reason I have chosen MOH as spine. Too bad we didn't start from MOH Vol. 1. I have to finish Vol 2, 3 in 1.5 years and have a whole year for Vol. 4.

[LAmom]

Yesterday I spent time to plan TOG 2. Most of the books are not available in the library. I felt overwhelmed right away for other reasons, too. So it just confirmed that I am NOT going to do it, at least this year.

So now I lean towards doing MOH Volume 2 as spine and adding in k12 Human Odyssey half of 1 and 2. We will also add some history and literature books to round it. Can you tell me where to find MOH 2 supplemental history and literature reading list?

I feel less overwhelmed now! Thank you for helping me sort it out. Thank you, warneral, for MOH suggestion. I do want to have church history integrated. That is the main reason I have chosen MOH as spine. Too bad we didn't start from MOH Vol. 1. I have to finish Vol 2, 3 in 1.5 years and have a whole year for Vol. 4.

 

Glad you made a decision! I'm still stressing. I have TOG yr 2, unit 2 so decided to go with that. After some planning and stressing, I'm really nervous about it actually working out next year. :/. I keep looking at MOH now! Maybe if unit 2 doesn't work out I can just jump ship and hop over to MOH. I do have unit 3 though.... I just don't like this overwhelmed feeling. When I tried unit 1 things just didn't flow for us and I am not sure if it was lack of planning/prep on my part or what. Anyways, just rambling. Hope MOH works well for you.

[JadeOrchidSong]

LAmom, I just heard from the friend I borrowed TOG 1 year plan and books from. She will loan me her TOG 2 unit 1 and unit 2 and all the books she has for upper grammar and dialectic, 37 books altogether! So I am back to TOG 2. Without her loan, I would simply jump ship with no regret. Now I will give it another try. I do already own TOG 2 units 3 and 4, TOG 3, and TOG 4. So there is a good incentive for me to try to make it work.

In your case, though, since you have very little ones that need lots of attention, using a spine like Story of the World or MOH should work much better. It is much less work and stress. I picked a few books a week from the library to go with Story of the World, we listened to the audio, did coloring sheets, map sheets, and a few hands-on projects from the Activity Guide. You can go fast or slow, have the kids do oral or written narration, you can read one, two, three or no extra books depending how busy you are.it is so low stress. I loved those 4 years using SOTW 1--4.

[boscopup]

Can you tell me where to find MOH 2 supplemental history and literature reading list?

 

It's in the back of the MOH book.

[JadeOrchidSong]

LAmom, i'd like to see your update about TOG 2. Are you going to do it? Are you planning now?

[LAmom]

I planned unit 2 out.  If I didn't have a 6th grader I would not do it.  But, I feel like she is ready to step it up in history and literature.  Who knows, though, if I will even have time to do the discussions with her!  She needs to work hard at writing this year (we will do WWS).  It may end up being too much.  

 

SOTW is lined up with TOG but some weeks have 3 chapters, some none, so I don't know how well it will work.  My younger boys really only need SOTW now.  That is why I am considering MOH because it is similar to SOTW but with stuff for my oldest to do too.  

 

I feel like I should just try TOG Unit 2 since I got the books, printed the SAPs, etc.  I have some notebooking pages and some coloring pages from SOTW, etc.  I am going to go light with the younger boys and focus on geography with them.  

 

I'm not content with my choice yet!  I think I am wanting more than I can actually handle...

[melmichigan]

I planned unit 2 out.  If I didn't have a 6th grader I would not do it.  But, I feel like she is ready to step it up in history and literature.  Who knows, though, if I will even have time to do the discussions with her!  She needs to work hard at writing this year (we will do WWS).  It may end up being too much.  

 

SOTW is lined up with TOG but some weeks have 3 chapters, some none, so I don't know how well it will work.  My younger boys really only need SOTW now.  That is why I am considering MOH because it is similar to SOTW but with stuff for my oldest to do too.  

 

I feel like I should just try TOG Unit 2 since I got the books, printed the SAPs, etc.  I have some notebooking pages and some coloring pages from SOTW, etc.  I am going to go light with the younger boys and focus on geography with them.  

 

I'm not content with my choice yet!  I think I am wanting more than I can actually handle...

You can also spread out the SOTW amongst the weeks with your younger kids, or gasp, even skip a few chapters and just pick the one you like the most.  You'll still be on the same basic schedule as your older DD.  

 

I think your plan to go light with them is a good one, think of it as gravy and just focus on your 6th grader.  If you don't get to a discussion she will still be exposed to good books.  Sometimes I used to just have DD tell me about the most interesting thing she had learned that week.  Don't take on to much or make it harder than it has to be.  

[JadeOrchidSong]

New update:

Not only will we do TOG 2 since I will have 37 books availalble to use, but we also will use MOH 2 and 3 as the spine. So I am now excited about the combo. For weeks when we are busy or stressed out, we will keep going with MOH. We will add in TOG books wherever fit. I will not have dc do all the history accountability questions every week, nor will I ask them to do all the literature worksheets. I will pick a few. We will just relax and enjoy it. So how does that sound?

[dauphin]

They don't like to read several books and only part of each. They say, " why can't we just have one book, finish it and then go to the next book?" We did all Story of the World 1-4 in the last four years and followed the Activity books for activities, maps, coloring sheets, questions, narrations, the recommended supplementary readers, and enjoyed it most of the time. Then when we did TOG, there is no spine to follow and they have to read several books. They don't like the lit worksheets and they can't do the maps independently and I just let them copy the answer maps in the map CD. They don't do hands -on stuff. I did the discussion only once with ds1.

Human Odessy might be good since it is just one book.

 

WHAT?!?!?! How often do you not finish books? If it's all the time, IDK if DD and I can deal with that either! I was starting to lean towards TOG...

 

There's no spine, but is their IG kind of what ties it all together? At least theoretically?

[JadeOrchidSong]

It is the discussions that tie it all together. Unfortunately I only did it once with dc.

[TracyP]

New update:

Not only will we do TOG 2 since I will have 37 books availalble to use, but we also will use MOH 2 and 3 as the spine. So I am now excited about the combo. For weeks when we are busy or stressed out, we will keep going with MOH. We will add in TOG books wherever fit. I will not have dc do all the history accountability questions every week, nor will I ask them to do all the literature worksheets. I will pick a few. We will just relax and enjoy it. So how does that sound?

 

It sounds like how we always use TOG - minus MOH. Some weeks we just read, some weeks we do more. The only constant is that we always relax and enjoy it. :) Good luck.

 

[TracyP]

WHAT?!?!?! How often do you not finish books? If it's all the time, IDK if DD and I can deal with that either! I was starting to lean towards TOG...

 

There's no spine, but is their IG kind of what ties it all together? At least theoretically?

 

I'm not going to claim to have the greatest memory, but I believe we have finished all the books except the Usborne Encyclopedias. What could be more annoying than not finishing, IMO, is the jumping around. I think the Rhetoric level has little jumping because that level is the leader, so to speak. To keep the younger levels close to the same topics you will sometimes read chapters or sections of books out of order. Occasionally I rework weeks so this doesn't happen. Usually it is not a problem.

[Saddlemomma]

WHAT?!?!?! How often do you not finish books? If it's all the time, IDK if DD and I can deal with that either! I was starting to lean towards TOG...

 

There's no spine, but is their IG kind of what ties it all together? At least theoretically?

 

DD and I did TOG Y2 last year.  This was our first time using TOG.  We finished what I consider the spines for the year (those books listed under Core History Readings).  Our spines for UG were:

 

• The Story of the Middle Ages, by Samuel Harding (YC); Read for 10 weeks; we finished the book
• The Renaissance, by Mary Quigley; Read for 7 weeks; we finished the book
• The Awakening of Europe, by MB Synge (YC); Read for 13 weeks; we finished the book
• History of US, Books 2, 3 & 4, by Joy Hakim; Read in units 3-4; both books 2&3 were finished.  We only read the first 8 chapters of book 4. However, it picks up where it left on in TOG Y3.  Since I'm moving DD to the Dialectic level next fall, she will have a different book.

 

So, 6 spines comprised the core readings for TOG Y2 Upper Grammar.  I think the confusion comes in because you are directed to jump around chapters in the books.  This is to put history into a more chronological order to match the way TOG presents their threads. However, my DD did notice that she actually read each book in its entirety.  The books for the Alternative readings remained the same as well throughout the course.  You can use SOTW, Streams of Civilizations, or Spielvogel. 

 

DD happened to be one of those kids who enjoyed the books so much it really didn't bother her.  History is one of her favorite classes, so I'm sure that makes a difference.

[LAmom]

I am pulling up an old thread, but I wanted to see how JadeOrchidSong's year is going with TOG2 and MOH2?  Is that working for you?  I can't find anything online that lines up MOH 2 and 3 with TOG 2.  Did you do something like that?  I am struggling along because of not having a spine to make things not feel disjointed.  I kind of want to use SOTW 3 and match up TOG 2 to that.  :(  I wonder if that has been done.  I also can't find that online.  LOL.  But, I would feel better using SOTW 3 with AG and having my D student do some of TOG (literature and some readings) that match up to my younger kids doing SOTW.  I am finding that TOG jumps all over with SOTW and I don't like that.  TOG is chronological?  I think SOTW also is but seems mixed up, too.  

 

Anyways, let me know how things are working, etc.  

[JadeOrchidSong]

My friend couldn't get her TOG 2 year plan and books back from the woman she loaned them to no matter how much she tried. But praise God who knew this would happen and gave me the chance to buy MOH 2 and 50 books in Winter Promise Quest for the Middle Ages from another friend. So i am doing this instead. I like MOH a lot, especially the church history tie in. What i dislike is the maps. That makes me appreciate deeply how those SOTW are put together so well. I am going to pull out our finished SOTW 2 maps to reivew instead of doing MOH maps. Winter Promise is strong for hands-on, but weak on books. It is very light and there are not enough living books to go with it. We are just having a light history living book year, i guess. Since MOH 2 covers less than TOG 2, i will finish it in 6 months, and then do TOG 2 Unit 4 to finisht the year.

LAmom, i hope you find a good balance and rhythm in your hisotry.

 

I also tried to find MOH 3 and TOG 3 line up schedule bud haven't found any. Too bad!

[JadeOrchidSong]

We also listen to SOTW 2 in its own order, not exactly lined up with MOH 2.

[mama27]

They don't like to read several books and only part of each. They say, " why can't we just have one book, finish it and then go to the next book?" We did all Story of the World 1-4 in the last four years and followed the Activity books for activities, maps, coloring sheets, questions, narrations, the recommended supplementary readers, and enjoyed it most of the time. Then when we did TOG, there is no spine to follow and they have to read several books. They don't like the lit worksheets and they can't do the maps independently and I just let them copy the answer maps in the map CD. They don't do hands -on stuff. I did the discussion only once with ds1.

Human Odessy might be good since it is just one book.

 

That's what my kids always disliked about programs like this. A little of this book, a page of that. Annoying to them.

[JadeOrchidSong]

That's what my kids always disliked about programs like this. A little of this book, a page of that. Annoying to them.

What do you use for history?

[mama27]

Right now I am using Veritas Press timeline cards and teacher manual and reading books that go along with what's on the card. Plus doing some of the projects in the TM.

 

[Erin]

High schooler here, and while we both enjoyed the first 9 weeks of TOG, there was just too much going on in different directions for my kid with executive function issues.  We needed to go back to a more straight-forward history text.  

We're now using SWB's History of the Ancient World, along with the accompanying Study Guide.  It's working well.  For lit. we're reading ancient classics using Progeny Press guides.  

[warneral]

 

I use knowledge quest MapTrek and those maps tie in great with a good number of the lessons FYI

 

My friend couldn't get her TOG 2 year plan and books back from the woman she loaned them to no matter how much she tried. But praise God who knew this would happen and gave me the chance to buy MOH 2 and 50 books in Winter Promise Quest for the Middle Ages from another friend. So i am doing this instead. I like MOH a lot, especially the church history tie in. What i dislike is the maps. That makes me appreciate deeply how those SOTW are put together so well. I am going to pull out our finished SOTW 2 maps to reivew instead of doing MOH maps. Winter Promise is strong for hands-on, but weak on books. It is very light and there are not enough living books to go with it. We are just having a light history living book year, i guess. Since MOH 2 covers less than TOG 2, i will finish it in 6 months, and then do TOG 2 Unit 4 to finisht the year.

LAmom, i hope you find a good balance and rhythm in your hisotry.

 

I also tried to find MOH 3 and TOG 3 line up schedule bud haven't found any. Too bad!