german German vs French SAT II, AP, and Goethe exam - our comparison

[Joan in GE]

For that very small population that might be interested in this, I thought I'd post...
 

So dd just took the AP German last month and today the SAT II / subject German (and French and Math Level 1)
 

First, she thought doing the 3 SAT II's was a bit too long.

Of the three today, she found German the most difficult.

Comparing German and French SAT's she said that there was twice as much reading comprehension on the German exam, much more grammmar and in addition, gender questions. On the French SAT, there was a lot more fill in the blank type questions, hardly any grammar and she doesn't remember any gender questions! So different!
 

She found the German SAT harder than the AP - which she started to realize (a bit late) in preparing for the SAT....that there is more grammar, more gender, and the texts, she thought were more difficult than the AP. If you don't understand some main points of the text, and there are 7 comprehension questions about it, you're stuck. I think she found the French SAT easier than the French AP though.
 

We don't have the AP or the SAT grades yet to know for sure....She had felt pretty good about the AP except for something that had nothing to do with the actual exam, but it might affect her score. After she'd finished the second oral part (giving a presentation), they told her that for some reason, the computer hadn't registered it! Then they had to call the AP people....I don't know if it's because we're 6 hours ahead, but it took them 45 minutes to figure out what to do. DD was already in the second group of kids, so had already waited 45 minutes to do the oral part (which comes at the end)...Then they put her in 'isolation' while they were trying to figure out what to do. The short of it being that she didn't think she did as well on the presentation part the second time around....
 

And to give an idea of the level in relation to Goethe....she tested on their site two weeks ago, as that's the next program she'll do....
 

They put her at B1.2....I don't know exactly how the European goals compare to the US ones (I know there are sites, I just haven't taken the time), eg more or less grammar, etc....
 

All in all though, I still think these end of the year tests are a good thing - getting the student to go over the material again to hopefully have a better grasp of it...(here's a post/thread from a long time ago - What I think I like about AP and SAT subject tests)

 

Just for future searches - there are some interesting posts comparing SAT II and AP's in this thread SAT II Literature...

 

Joan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

For that very small population that might be interested in this, I thought I'd post...

 

So dd just took the AP German last month and today the SAT II / subject German (and French and Math Level 1)

 

First, she thought doing the 3 SAT II's was a bit too long.

 

Of the three today, she found German the most difficult.

 

Comparing German and French SAT's she said that there was twice as much reading comprehension on the German exam, much more grammmar and in addition, gender questions. On the French SAT, there was a lot more fill in the blank type questions, hardly any grammar and she doesn't remember any gender questions! So different!

 

She found the German SAT harder than the AP - which she started to realize (a bit late) in preparing for the SAT....that there is more grammar, more gender, and the texts, she thought were more difficult than the AP. If you don't understand some main points of the text, and there are 7 comprehension questions about it, you're stuck. I think she found the French SAT easier than the French AP though.

 

We don't have the AP or the SAT grades yet to know for sure....She had felt pretty good about the AP except for something that had nothing to do with the actual exam, but it might affect her score. After she'd finished the second oral part (giving a presentation), they told her that for some reason, the computer hadn't registered it! Then they had to call the AP people....I don't know if it's because we're 6 hours ahead, but it took them 45 minutes to figure out what to do. DD was already in the second group of kids, so had already waited 45 minutes to do the oral part (which comes at the end)...Then they put her in 'isolation' while they were trying to figure out what to do. The short of it being that she didn't think she did as well on the presentation part the second time around....

 

And to give an idea of the level in relation to Goethe....she tested on their site two weeks ago, as that's the next program she'll do....

 

They put her at B1.2....I don't know exactly how the European goals compare to the US ones (I know there are sites, I just haven't taken the time), eg more or less grammar, etc....

 

All in all though, I still think these end of the year tests are a good thing - getting the student to go over the material again to hopefully have a better grasp of it...(here's a post/thread from a long time ago - What I think I like about AP and SAT subject tests)

 

Just for future searches - there are some interesting posts comparing SAT II and AP's in this thread SAT II Literature...

 

Joan

 

 

Thanks for the comparisons. This is something I'd considered for my older kids. Though it looks as though German is being crowded out by Latin.  Sigh.

 

On the Goethe Exam levels, I took one of the B level exams when we lived in Germany. I didn't find it to be hard - after living in Germany for over a year, after high school and university level German courses.  I would say that German level B is stiffer than most high school language programs will prepare a student for.  It assumes a pretty wide range of vocabulary and a facility with many forms of communication, including phone calls, advertisements and letters. 

 

[The hardest part of my exam was the dialogue with another student as my speaking partner. We were supposed to be planning a bike trip and each had certain things we had to get across - one of us didn't own a bike and needed to rent one, we needed to discuss where to go and where to stay. My assigned partner was not so great at thinking on her feet and pretty much suggested that we ride around the big park in Berlin, then go to a nearby Gasthaus with a bar.  I had to do a lot of dodging and weaving to make my points without actively torpedoing her exam.]

[In The Great White North]

 

 

And to give an idea of the level in relation to Goethe....she tested on their site two weeks ago, as that's the next program she'll do....

What course is that?  Is it online or in person?

[Joan in GE]

What course is that?  Is it online or in person?

 

Online test on the Goethe Institute site....to place her for a course.

 

[cathmom]

B one point two?

[Joan in GE]

From the Wikipedia page about the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages

 

These descriptors can apply to any of the languages spoken in Europe, and there are translations in many languages.

Deutsche Welle suggests A1 is reached with about 75 hours of German tuition, A2.1 with about 150 hours, A2.2 with about 225 hours, B1.1 with about 300 hours, and B1.2 with about 400 hours.^[5]

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Online test on the Goethe Institute site....to place her for a course.

Is she going to  take a course through the Goethe Institute or just using the placement test?

Comparing German and French SAT's she said that there was twice as much reading comprehension on the German exam, much more grammar and in addition, gender questions. On the French SAT, there was a lot more fill in the blank type questions, hardly any grammar and she doesn't remember any gender questions! So different!

 

 

Does it matter much if the German SAT II is harder than the French one?  Presumably, colleges care more about percentiles than raw score, so if the German test is equally difficult for all takers, and the French test is equally easy for all takers, than your DD's percentile results should correctly reflect her position with respect to all the other test takers, regardless of test difficulty.

 

Now, if she found the French test easier because she's better at French, we'll, that's another story.

[regentrude]

Does it matter much if the German SAT II is harder than the French one?  Presumably, colleges care more about percentiles than raw score, so if the German test is equally difficult for all takers, and the French test is equally easy for all takers, than your DD's percentile results should correctly reflect her position with respect to all the other test takers, regardless of test difficulty.

 

The percentiles bear this out, but only to a slight degree and at the very top of the scale: 10% of students get an 800 on the German reading test vs 13% on the French one, but this difference evens out down the scale by 770.

http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Subject-Tests-Percentile-Ranks-2012.pdf

 

So really, the results are not vastly different.

[Muttichen]

It makes sense that the German and French SAT tests are different because the languages are different. In German, getting genders down is really important and takes a lot of memorization, where in French they are easier.  French, on the other hand, has those complicated past tenses to learn.  My kids took both and never mentioned that one was harder than the other, but they did take them in different years.  They usually scored a little better on the French, I think, but they did well on both.

 

That's too bad about your dd's presentation, Joan.  That's so frustrating!  I'd tell her not to worry though.  Most kids do so poorly on the oral part that it's not hard to rise to the top if you've had some good speaking experience.

 

[Joan in GE]

ITGWN -Yes, she’s most likely going to do the course.

Muttichen – thanks for the encouragement J I do find gender pretty important in French too though – you can easily make several mistakes in one sentence with the wrong gender for one noun (though I don’t know German well enough to tell if there are more or less mistakes possible)

GGardener - I was just commenting on the differences for others who might take the test in the future – no college here will even look at her SAT scores and probably wouldn't need all that we do in the US. We do testing for other reasons – my dc will study for a standardized exam harder than they will study for me and I’m trying to make sure they have a solid base in math and German – dd really only did the French since she was already doing the others and it costs so little to add it and for me, the more outside-the-home test experience she has, the better…When I last looked, there were very few books prepping for the SAT German (I actually had them from a few years ago so haven’t searched lately) … so any info seems helpful for others.

The percentiles bear this out, but only to a slight degree and at the very top of the scale: 10% of students get an 800 on the German reading test vs 13% on the French one, but this difference evens out down the scale by 770.

http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Subject-Tests-Percentile-Ranks-2012.pdf

 

So really, the results are not vastly different.

 

Note this link was for the 2012 College Bound Seniors, and the tests do change every year:  I don't think the 2014 results are posted yet, but the 2013 ones were pretty different: in 2013, 12% of the French students received an 800, and 19% (!) of the German SAT II takers earned an 800. In 2012 the mean score on the French exam was 3 points higher than the German, but in 2013, the mean score on the French exam was 13 points higher than the German one.  Now, there's 10 times as many French students taking this test as German, so the statistics may be a bit funky.  Who knows what the 2014 test results will bring.

 

Moreover, the 200-800 range is not a raw score, and is scaled by difficulty in a way that I don't understand. One would think if it were really scaled correctly, the percentile numbers would always map more closely to the cooked score.  This chart doesn't show what the raw score needed to get these cooked scores would be.

 

However, the result at the top end, I believe, have more to do with the number of "native" speakers taking the test, than the test itself.  Chinese is a notoriously difficult language, but 35% of the students who took the Chinese language SAT II in 2013 got an 800, and the mean score was 759!  I'll just take a flyer here, and assume that result was not because this test is so easy.

 

So, I still contend that a student can feel like a particular standardized test was easy or hard, but that doesn't necessarily correlate to what their percentile score will be.

[Joan in GE]

Interesting analysis....

 

I wonder the effect too of students being scared away from an exam....like for Math level 1...where the scoring is so tough...

[Joan in GE]

Things were busy over the summer and I'm finally getting back to report in case there is anyone interested....Dd got a 4 on the AP German and I think a 620 on the SAT II German even with using a study guide for the SAT in the weeks between the AP and SAT II and the problems mentioned above with the oral part of the AP exam...So I think OSU prepared her for the AP but not so well for the SAT II....

 

 

[Laura in CA]

Wow, congrats to your daughter, Joan! My son did OSU German though AP but didn't feel prepared for the AP exam, which has become harder and harder to find anyway (our local ps dropped it about 4 years ago), but my hunch was that he'd do all right on the AP exam because he speaks and reads easily (but is a bit shaky on genders etc.). He did get 650 on the SAT subject test (with listening), so that gives us two data points for the OSU course -- solid, if not off-the-charts, preparation for these tests. (But an engaging course that has led to my son talking about taking German in college and possibly minoring in it!)

[Matryoshka]

Hmmm.... My 2 older dds both took the German AP last spring, one got a 5 and the other a 4.  I was thinking of signing them up for the German SAT2 with Listening next month, but you have me wondering if I should just let the AP scores stand??  I could sign them up for Spanish with Listening instead (I was considering doing that next year - you can only do one Listening exam per year as they're all given at exactly the same time just once) - they're both taking the Spanish AP in the spring.

 

What do you think?  Sign them up for the German or not?  I let them both drop Saturday School this year, where they would have been studying for the DSD2.  With all their other APs and starting to do college visits this year (they're juniors) and good scores on the AP, I decided to let it go...

 

(and just FYI, the hardest US-given German test is now the AATG4.  One of my twins took it three times (Sat School just keeps giving it every year once you hit that level, as there are no higher levels).  The third year (last year) they redesigned the test.  Dd's still scored over 90th percentile, but her raw score (and everyone else's) dropped quite a bit.  Some of the native speakers had a hard time with the comprehension questions (about weird things like job ads for Bankers).  The AP was easy after that one...

[Muttichen]

 I'd suggest you give them a practice test from the CB book and see how they do.  All six of my dc got 5s on the AP and scored in the mid-700s on the SAT2. 

[Joan in GE]

 

Wow, congrats to your daughter, Joan! My son did OSU German though AP but didn't feel prepared for the AP exam, which has become harder and harder to find anyway (our local ps dropped it about 4 years ago), but my hunch was that he'd do all right on the AP exam because he speaks and reads easily (but is a bit shaky on genders etc.). He did get 650 on the SAT subject test (with listening), so that gives us two data points for the OSU course -- solid, if not off-the-charts, preparation for these tests. (But an engaging course that has led to my son talking about taking German in college and possibly minoring in it!)

 

Yes, it is a very engaging course. Both dc that took it came away liking German a lot and dd is continuing.

 

Dd's finally started the Goethe course and it turns out there is a weekly tutoring session as well - thankfully on European time now. see post further below...

Hmmm.... My 2 older dds both took the German AP last spring, one got a 5 and the other a 4.  I was thinking of signing them up for the German SAT2 with Listening next month, but you have me wondering if I should just let the AP scores stand??  I could sign them up for Spanish with Listening instead (I was considering doing that next year - you can only do one Listening exam per year as they're all given at exactly the same time just once) - they're both taking the Spanish AP in the spring.

 

What do you think?  Sign them up for the German or not?  I let them both drop Saturday School this year, where they would have been studying for the DSD2.  With all their other APs and starting to do college visits this year (they're juniors) and good scores on the AP, I decided to let it go...

 

(and just FYI, the hardest US-given German test is now the AATG4.  One of my twins took it three times (Sat School just keeps giving it every year once you hit that level, as there are no higher levels).  The third year (last year) they redesigned the test.  Dd's still scored over 90th percentile, but her raw score (and everyone else's) dropped quite a bit.  Some of the native speakers had a hard time with the comprehension questions (about weird things like job ads for Bankers).  The AP was easy after that one...

 

thanks for the info about AATG4....

 

I have no idea what is being taught in your dc's Saturday school. As Muttichen says, give them the practice test...

 

I asked dd a bit more and she thought that the AP French is equal to the AP German in terms of difficulty, and that she just didn't do as well because she doesn't know German as well as French.

 

She gave an example about the SAT II - that it gives a fill in the blank asking what case a certain word is in a sentence - a type of question that doesn't even occur on the AP. She says the cases were covered in OSU but not really drilled. So if yours are getting drilled on that type of thing, then they should do better.

 

 I'd suggest you give them a practice test from the CB book and see how they do.  All six of my dc got 5s on the AP and scored in the mid-700s on the SAT2. 

 

I have a vague recollection that yours were doing the languages at community/college - was that the case for German? If not, what preparation did you give them? Congratulations by the way!

 

 

 

In summary, it does seem safe to say that a perfect AP score does not lead to a perfect SAT II score in German, especially without special preparation....

 

[Muttichen]

I have a vague recollection that yours were doing the languages at community/college - was that the case for German? If not, what preparation did you give them? Congratulations by the way!

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

We did languages at home.  We started them young (birth -LOL!) on French and German.  Early on, we did lots of oral stuff -- songs, audiobooks, movies.  At middle school, we started grammar and writing.   For French, we usually had native speakers we paid to practice conversation with them.  Unfortunately, we were never able to find native German speakers to hire.  We did take a couple of trips to Europe and Quebec in their high school years so they could practice.  We lived Germany years ago (oldest was a toddler, second was born there).  We still have friends there and they don't speak English, so it's total immersion for the kids (and us!) when we go back.

 

 For the AP, we read newspapers, watched and discussed the news, read literature and wrote essays, etc.  We reviewed German grammar with Kaleidoskop.

[Joan in GE]

Oh, I guess the cc was for other subjects then. So are you fluent yourself? That's my problem...I'm completely dependent on outsourcing...But I thought the 5 wks immersion time would do the trick, at least for the AP exam which is so much more culturally dependent. But then, the computer problems probably had an effect on her oral scores...

[Muttichen]

Dh and I are both fairly fluent in German.  I understand French but really don't speak it; he's fairly fluent.  We can handle conversing, grading essays, etc. and we use lots of oral materials so the kids' accent is better than our. :)  We love learning languages, so this was one of our favorite parts of homeschooling.

[Joan in GE]

We love learning languages, so this was one of our favorite parts of homeschooling.

 

 

Sounds like it made it quite special...Have you ever posted your schedules over the years or written up specifically what materials you used (I know this kind of thing takes lots of materials over the years, so it can be a pain to list)? I know several people with larger and some very large families who need to have more languages because that's the requirement here, who are having trouble...It might be helpful for them to see how you did it....

[Muttichen]

You know, it was so eclectic and just so much a part of normal life ("What movie should we watch?  How about Emil und die Detektive?")  that it's overwhelming to even think of writing it all down.  Someday I should give it a try, though!

[Joan in GE]

You know, it was so eclectic and just so much a part of normal life ("What movie should we watch?  How about Emil und die Detektive?")  that it's overwhelming to even think of writing it all down.  Someday I should give it a try, though!

 

I was thinking it would probably be to much to write down...but it would be good for others someday, to know the 'ingredients'...like how often per week at what age, what percent of the day, how much you and dh talked with them in LOE's,  how often were the trips to Germany, etc...

 

We used a lot of different materials over the years, but to point to which ones were most 'efficace', well, it's not always possible...

 

Ds is just bemoaning that he does't know German and even French better. But then a recent uni grad told me that most uni students have lots of 'fautes d'orthographe'....That one professor says he'll stop correcting a homework assignment if there are more than 5 spelling errors and most students can't arrive at doing that (the homework is optional)...Anyway, ds3 is feeling that all his time spent learning biology, etc was a waste as he has 'forgotten' it all and he wishes the time had gone into languages...He even wanted me to start a thread on the WTM asking people to comment on the usefulness of studying biology! So your family's plan would have pleased him. But at the time we didn't think we were going to stay here and German is not that useful in the US...

[Matryoshka]

 German is not that useful in the US...

 

I speak Spanish and German.  I keep hearing Spanish is much more useful that German in the US.  Well, it all depends on what type of career you're going to use it for.  Human services?  Sure, Spanish is more useful.  Business?  I found German much more useful.  I worked in international marketing for various software companies for about a decade.  What languages did I need?  German and French.  Today I'd probably add Japanese and Chinese could be useful.  Didn't use my Spanish once.  Well, except it was very useful in deciphering French.  I can now read computer manuals in French.  Woo-hoo.

 

As a possible post-homeschooling career, I am thinking of going into medical interpreting (among other things).  In that case, Spanish is very useful and German fairly worthless.

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I speak German, and I will teach my daughter German.  One practical reason?  So much wonderful German television available for free online.  Really high quality movies, documentaries, kids shows etc, all commercial free.  German may not be spoken much in the US but it provides access to cultural opportunites that are more meaningful to me than Spanish.

[madteaparty]

I was thinking it would probably be to much to write down...but it would be good for others someday, to know the 'ingredients'...like how often per week at what age, what percent of the day, how much you and dh talked with them in LOE's,  how often were the trips to Germany, etc...

 Joining the chorus of begging muttichen to write some guidelines down. ;)

[Joan in GE]

the love affair with Goethe was short lived when dd ran across a problem this morning and could only get out of the tutor that it's in passive voice which she already knew...Evidently the program doesn't give useful hints though there's a 'help' type of commentator, like the lightbulb feature in WORD...

 

And I misunderstood, the tutor does not give weekly sessions...Now dd says, oh, OSU was so good for the money!

 

 

I speak Spanish and German.  I keep hearing Spanish is much more useful that German in the US.  Well, it all depends on what type of career you're going to use it for.  Human services?  Sure, Spanish is more useful.  Business?  I found German much more useful.  I worked in international marketing for various software companies for about a decade.  What languages did I need?  German and French.  Today I'd probably add Japanese and Chinese could be useful.  Didn't use my Spanish once.  Well, except it was very useful in deciphering French.  I can now read computer manuals in French.  Woo-hoo.

 

As a possible post-homeschooling career, I am thinking of going into medical interpreting (among other things).  In that case, Spanish is very useful and German fairly worthless.
 

 

I can see that about German....Well, at the time I didn't see that and invested in Chinese, but you also think that's useful....I was just reading about a newly elected Greek lady who speaks 5 languages....why is it so difficult for us to master even one extra one???

[Joan in GE]

Just another update about the Goethe coursework...

 

Dd is just finishing B1.2 and overall still thinks that it is overpriced...that OSU German was much better for the money.

 

Overall she thinks that she was probably placed in too easy of a course, but there were some things that she didn't know...still she didn't learn that much over all for a very hefty fee. She wouldn't use it again...