Help! Force my rude child to do group activities?

[lacell]

Warning: novel

 

Need some advice from seasoned moms/dads. My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing. When we put him in T-ball at age 3, this became readily apparent. He did not want to do what the rest of the team was doing. Same problem in his church preschool 2 days per week, though he made improvements. He was not able to do the Christmas pageant with the preschool b/c he refused to participate in the rehearsals and sing with the others. It's not that he doesn't like singing. When he sings a song at home, he freaks out if anyone sings along. He is 5 now, and yesterday we took him to check out a TaeKwonDo class just for his age group. It looked so fun! He had absolutely NO INTEREST. When the teacher tried to talk to him and asked "What do you think of those kids' cool kicks?", he responded "Rotten!" I about DIED of embarrassment RIGHT THERE! If I saw a kid acting like that, I would think he was never disciplined but he really is disciplined diligently. When we got home, I saw him doing the kicks and punches he saw I know TaeKwonDo would be really good for him, and I think he would love it once he gives it a chance. Should we make him do it? The owner said not to force him but just keep bringing him until he gains interest, but he doesn't know my son. He will sit with me forever unless he gets a push. This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause. He has always had a high degree of awareness of his personal space/separateness, even as a baby. And a big concept of dignity. For example, he would dance in his room as a toddler, but stop immediately if he knew I was watching. He is not a shy kid, which is weird. But he does seem to have some social anxiety and I think that is one of the reasons he says rude things in those situations. Any advice welcome; I will try not to be defensive. This really is a sore spot.

[Tohru]

Hey mama  ((hugs))

 

That is hard - you know your child and you are the parent to make decisions.  If you think he'd do well once enrolled, then you should.  However if you think it might be better for him to get a little older, mature a little more, than maybe wait? A 5 year old is still very much ego-centric.

My personal experience is that once a child reaches about 6 or 7, they develop a better understanding of others and begin to really grasp proper social behavior - although they seem to forget all that once they become teenagers :tongue_smilie:

 

 

[Arcadia]

My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing. 

He did not want to do what the rest of the team was doing. 

When we got home, I saw him doing the kicks and punches he saw I know TaeKwonDo would be really good for him, and I think he would love it once he gives it a chance.

.......This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause. He has always had a high degree of awareness of his personal space/separateness, even as a baby.

 

My 9 year old firstborn is kind of similar (and he takes after me). I don't expect a 5 year old to give a diplomatic answers to a Tae Kwon Do instructor though I do know kids who could do that. What is rude to us may not seems rude to a 5 year old.

 

The thing is your oldest is fiercely independent and he may just prefer group activities where he has a high chance of being team leader. He might like to learn Tae Kwon Do by watching but he may not enjoy doing a class where he has to follow instructions or wait his turn. Why not let him pick the group activities he want to be in. 

 

I don't think this makes it a character issue though.  Your child has an independent nature, and maybe has a need for a bigger personal space.  That does not mean that he won't be okay in group or team work down the road. If that is his personality, then it just means that he might need to find a job which allows him to be more of either an individual player or team leader than in a job where everyone is "equal".  

[texasmama]

Social anxiety is not a character issue.  It's a mental health issue and not terribly uncommon.  Forcing a kid to participate who has anxiety is not very effective and will likely backfire.  Kids this age do and say all sorts of things because of the developmental stage they are at which is not very insightful or sophisticated. 

 

Depending on how much these issues caused problems for me and/or my child in day to day life, I might seek out an evaluation and short-term therapy.  In your shoes, I would likely start by speaking with his pediatrician since this is your oldest child and the pediatrician sees a number of kids in this age group and can give you either reassurance or some referrals if he/she things it warrants further evaluation.  Also, you would not be the first parent who was surprised with a diagnosis either now or later on which helped to explain some of these behaviors.  (Not suggesting that this is the case with your child at all, but it can be difficult to pin down what is going on with a child at this age.  As time passes, things become more clear, and they grow in or out of the issues.)

 

That is my free of charge take on it, which may or may not be correct.   Kids this age can be quite a puzzle.

[AK_Mom4]

Personally, I would not waste my money on signing him up.  With the "Young Independents", it turns into a high stress battle of wills when you try to force them to do something that they clearly recognize is not actually mandatory and isn't what THEY want to do.  Save your energy for the things that are really important - showers and such.

 

You can work on coaching the rude answers when he isn't under pressure.  It took extra training for my independent to get to where he could frame a polite answer that he didn't really want to say, but we got there.  There is time for team work as they get older when he finds something that he is interested in doing.  In the mean time, how about something like an individual swimming lesson?  Important for safety AND a chance to burn some energy.

[Farrar]

In my experience, pretty much all 5 yos are rude sometimes. It's not a character issue, it's part of being five.

 

Obviously it's our job to teach them some manners, but I wouldn't try to match wills with a strong willed kid over it. Just explain, be patient, understand that kids are like this.

 

I agree with the instructor that I wouldn't force him, especially at age five for an extracurricular activity.

[swellmomma]

Don't sign him up for things.  As for rude, he is 5.  It is a rare 5 year old with impeccable manners, in fact it is a rare kid of any age to always have the best manners.  When he says something rude, remind him he is being rude and move on.  You are wanting him to be what you want him to be, involved in what you think he would like rather than things he has actively asked for.  I would never force my child to do any activity regardless of rudeness.  Let him be to grow and figure out who he is without the extra expectations put on him.  Not all kids are joiners.  Oldest still does not have an interest to join many things.  He was hesitant about cadets for 2 years before giving it a shot at 14 and loves it, but I never forced it on him even when I thought it would enjoy it because it is not me attending.  Participating in extra activities should not involve a battle of wills.

This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause

The bolded from your post stood out to me, first when it comes to social anxiety it is not a character issue at all and pushing a child beyond what they are comfortable for when they already have social anxiety will backfire and actually make the anxiety worse.  As for the bolded, I fully disagree.  No one should ever be dying to self for everyone else.  There is a lot to be learned about working a group/team, but those things do not have to be learned at 5 (and at younger ages it really is not developmentally appropriate to expect it).  One can have compassion and support the greater good without ever dying to self, or compromising who they are at their core.  He has a years to learn how to work in a group and you will likely find it to be something he requests of his own accord when it is an activity he is interested in, or when he is older and better prepared.  Being a young child who is not ready for group lessons/activities is not a failure of character.  One does not ever have to participate in group lessons etc ever in childhood to learn how to work in a group, you do that every day in your family unit, in your neighborhood, out in the world as a whole.  There are many other ways to teach that skill (because it is a skill not a character trait imo) that do not involve preschool and kindy level group activities.

[Jilly]

It is so hard when your oldest is little. I remember thinking my twins were so old at five but really they were still so young. I think that may be part of the problem. Five is a very young age and what you may perceive as being rude is actually quite normal. Also your son may have some social anxiety which may be adding stress to the situation. 

 

I would not force him to participate at this age. I would keep bringing him to Tae Kwon Do for a while and see if he eventually becomes interested. If he does have some anxiety he may feel better the more times he goes because he will become familiar with the environment. In the meantime I would probably read up on anxiety and children to see if he has some of the traits. You may need to have him evaluated at some point if the anxiety becomes too much. 

[ErinE]

Agreeing with PP. Give your son time.

 

My son refused to participate in any activities until he was 7 or so. He would wander off the field. He'd scream if I re-directed him back to play. He'd chase dragonflies in the middle of a game. We tried t-ball, soccer, tae kwon do, swimming, art, etc. The only place he enjoyed was his pre-school which was play-based. We finally stopped signing him up for activities until he asked to join.

 

He was and still is the sweetest kid. Now, he loves all sports: track, basketball, soccer, swimming, baseball, golf. He spent time in gymnastics and tae kwon do and loved both. He is extremely social, and DH and I are complimented often on his polite and outgoing personality. His reluctance at five wasn't forever. I'm glad we stopped forcing him to participate in anything until he was ready.

[ElizaG]

The bolded from your post stood out to me, first when it comes to social anxiety it is not a character issue at all 

 

Well, that depends on how you look at it.   In my understanding, "character" develops out of doing things a certain way, over and over, so that these habits of thinking and behaving become ingrained.   So even if anxiety begins for reasons beyond a child's control, the way the adult guides them through handling it can affect the formation of their character.   

 

OP, FWIW, I agree with you about "dying to self" for the greater good.   Many people on these boards seem to take an individualistic viewpoint, but that's not our family's way either.  

 

You said "he really is disciplined diligently."  At home, will he join in on music and movement activities?  Recite a short verse?   Sing along with you if you ask him?  These are the sorts of things that would be reasonable for a 5 year old.   

 

And I have children who balk at doing those things, both at home and in public.  So I know it's tough.   But I've found that being firm, starting very small, and treating the activity as a expectation like any other (brushing teeth, picking up toys, etc.), works out much better than just letting it slide and hoping they'll grow out of it.  

 

Keep in mind, too, that for children, thinking they're in control can cause anxiety.   I think bright children are especially prone to getting themselves into a state like this, because they can perceive -- and partly understand -- more than they're able to handle.

 

ETA:  You might also check out Rudolf Dreikurs' work, including "Children:  The Challenge."   I think his approach "gets" what's going on with this sort of situation, more than many others do.  

[Mandylubug]

My son can be very similar in behavior. He seems to be a loner but it turns out it is more anxiety and need for perfection. He knows he won't be perfect and doing something new is a risk in his mind. It takes multiple visits of observing before he is ever comfortable.

 

He is a little more outgoing now that he's older but we also have talks about taking our anxieties and choosing to not let them stop us. A five year old isn't going to be able to rationalize with himself at that level yet.

[mom2att]

My older son did not participate in any kind of group sports until he was 8. It was hard enough to get him to be sociable at home, let alone in a group.  He simply processes things differently than most people--any kind of group was completely overwhelming for him, so he reacted negatively.  At 8 we dipped our toes in with baseball, and since it wasn't a total disaster (way too skill-specific for my non-athletic kid), we continued with soccer after that.  It was and continues to be a learning experience for him.

 

But at 5, don't push it.  Give him time to get comfortable with who he is and what he can manage before asking more of him.

 

[dmmm]

Nope, don't sign him up. I would keep an eye on him in the years to come just to make sure it isn't really anxiety. My dd's anxiety manifests itself as defiance and excuses why it sucks or why she can't do it. If she isn't able to perfect something from minute one, she is out. It is defiance, it is her flight mode going into overdrive.

 

Also, it sucks for the other kids if he is going to be negative. Don't waste other people's time trying to teach him character. Maybe a social group to teach him social cues would be the proper route right now.

[Chris in VA]

Oh, Honey. He's five. He hardly has had time to form a self, much less die to one.

 

Keep being diligent in modeling manners. Give choices when you can, but be sure not to give them when you don't mean to.

 

Gentle correction, pointing out when he gets it right, lots of do-overs--these will go far in helping him develop into a polite, kind person.

 

Sounds like he may need some time to warm up in social situations--so give him some.

 

((OP))

[ChrisB]

My son can be very similar in behavior. He seems to be a loner but it turns out it is more anxiety and need for perfection. He knows he won't be perfect and doing something new is a risk in his mind. It takes multiple visits of observing before he is ever comfortable.

 

He is a little more outgoing now that he's older but we also have talks about taking our anxieties and choosing to not let them stop us. A five year old isn't going to be able to rationalize with himself at that level yet.

 

I have one who is like this.  She is a perfectionist!  It may not take her multiple visits, but if she thinks she can't do it right away, she refuses to do so until she's confident she can.  If you push her, she will dig in her heals, refuse to participate, and verbally lash out.  She's social, but will hang around the outside until she's confident and feels comfortable enough to join.  Now that DD is 8, she is more inclined to participate and try things.

[Rebel Yell]

Warning: novel

 

Need some advice from seasoned moms/dads. My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing. When we put him in T-ball at age 3, this became readily apparent. He did not want to do what the rest of the team was doing. Same problem in his church preschool 2 days per week, though he made improvements. He was not able to do the Christmas pageant with the preschool b/c he refused to participate in the rehearsals and sing with the others. It's not that he doesn't like singing. When he sings a song at home, he freaks out if anyone sings along. He is 5 now, and yesterday we took him to check out a TaeKwonDo class just for his age group. It looked so fun! He had absolutely NO INTEREST. When the teacher tried to talk to him and asked "What do you think of those kids' cool kicks?", he responded "Rotten!" I about DIED of embarrassment RIGHT THERE! If I saw a kid acting like that, I would think he was never disciplined but he really is disciplined diligently. When we got home, I saw him doing the kicks and punches he saw I know TaeKwonDo would be really good for him, and I think he would love it once he gives it a chance. Should we make him do it? The owner said not to force him but just keep bringing him until he gains interest, but he doesn't know my son. He will sit with me forever unless he gets a push. This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause. He has always had a high degree of awareness of his personal space/separateness, even as a baby. And a big concept of dignity. For example, he would dance in his room as a toddler, but stop immediately if he knew I was watching. He is not a shy kid, which is weird. But he does seem to have some social anxiety and I think that is one of the reasons he says rude things in those situations. Any advice welcome; I will try not to be defensive. This really is a sore spot.

"he really is disciplined diligently." May I gently ask what you mean by this? Do you mean discipline as in treating him as a disciple- teaching him by your good example, or do you mean more of a "pop him with a swich every time he does something we don't want him to do" kind of discipline?

 

It sounds like the Tae Kwon Do teacher is a good, gentle person.  If and when your son is ready and interested- sign him up there!

 

And many kids off all ages don't like group things.  The saddest sight to me is the sweet little 4yo girl who develops a lifelong hatred of dance because her mom forced her into crowded noisy dance classrooms and shoved her onto a giant scary stage with hundreds of stragners staring at her during the recital- and then "disciplined" her by yelling or spanking for crying and refusing to move onstage.

 

Also, I don't think there is a significant good or cause in group activities such as children's Christmas pageants, TKD or dance classes, or soccer games. Sure- there is the "whole team suffers if you quit in the middle of the season" aspect, but there is no harm in not starting at all. Plenty of years ahead to work into group activities or classes. Or maybe solo sports like track (on a team, but individually timed) will be a better fit.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Well, that depends on how you look at it.   In my understanding, "character" develops out of doing things a certain way, over and over, so that these habits of thinking and behaving become ingrained.    

 

 

Well, yes - but you have to look at the developmental stage of the child.  If I had insisted on teaching Calvin to tie his shoe laces or ride a bike at six, he would have spent three years doing it wrong before he became physically capable of doing it at all.  Instead I tried, realised that his body was nowhere near capable, and stepped back.  At nine, he learned quickly.

 

There's no point, I believe, in forcing a child into a situation for which he or she is not developmentally ready.  No good lessons will be learned, and some bad habits may be entrenched.  The hardest thing for me to learn was to step back and let time pass - it was not at all natural to me.  It worked, time after time.  

 

Of course, things like rudeness have to be worked on, but that can be done gently at home with quiet correction, not on the stage of a public class.

 

L

[albeto.]

I also agree his behavior might be indicative of social anxiety, which is no more a choice than stuttering or allergies. It sounds to me as if you're simply embarrassed about his behavior in public. If this is the case, I would encourage you to look into your own sense of self-identity and figure out why his noncompliance is a trigger for your anxiety. You can control him only so long. I'm sure you don't want to raise a child who is resentful of his mother's involvement in his life, but if you can't support him where he is, I suspect that will be the more likely scenario. 

 

I'm speaking as a mother to a difficult child myself, and when I say difficult, I mean your example would be child's play in comparison to what my child did. For years. In public and private. Because he didn't know how else to express the mental/emotional/physical/social discomfort that caused him legitimate pain. So if there's anything I hope you'd take away from this thread, it is that behavior is a form of communication. Find out what your child is communicating. Coercing him to please you will only work so long, then you'll find you will have taught him a whole set of social skills you never expected (such as secrecy, keeping grudges, revenge behavior, emotional detachment to you, inappropriate stress-relievers, etc). 

 

 

 

[Alice]

I agree with waiting and not pushing him to do it now. I personally think it's more developmentally appropriate for 3 year olds to NOT want to be in Tball or sit in circle-time or do whatever everyone else is doing. There are situations that as parents we have to teach them how to behave properly in but I don't think being in organized activities at a young age is one of them. 

 

When my oldest was 3 I put him in swim lessons. He loved the water and loved to swim. I thought the lessons would be fun for him, and in all honesty a break for me. First day he refused to get in the water or talk to the teacher at all (or really look at him). Second day I started to get him in his bathing suit and he looked me in the eye and said, "I don't know why you are putting my suit on because I am NOT getting in the water." We didn't go back, there was no point. I remember being somewhat worried that he would never be willing to go to anything without me (this was a kid that wouldn't go to Sunday School alone, wouldn't stay with sitters, wouldn't go anywhere). Fast forward and he now swims year-round on a team competitively and is a kid who we can't keep home. He went to camp alone for a week at age 8 and would have gone for longer the next year if I would have let him. He's away this week on vacation with his aunt in Puerto Rico and from what I gather, not homesick at all. 

 

Point being, give them time. They grow up soon enough and some kids just need time to be able to separate or want to be in group things. 

 

 

[Courtney_Ostaff]

...My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing...did not want to do what the rest of the team was doing..he refused to participate...he responded "Rotten!" I...He will sit with me forever unless he gets a push....He has always had a high degree of awareness of his personal space/separateness, even as a baby. And a big concept of dignity. ...He is not a shy kid, which is weird. But he does seem to have some social anxiety and I think that is one of the reasons he says rude things in those situations....

 

This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause.

 

 

 

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up, and I hate to be the one to say this, because I think it's terribly over-diagnosed....but, here goes: is there any chance he might be a tad autistic?  IMHO, social anxiety and high-functioning autism run together like peanut butter and jelly.  That whole thing about personal space and dignity and "off" social responses kind of make me go, "hmmm...."

 

Social anxiety gets worse when you push them, because their terror level just goes through the roof.  My child actually flatly refused to do piano lessons after her teacher mentioned as an enticement that there are recitals.  The mere thought of a recital was enough to turn her off of piano lessons. And dance class. etc.  It's the fight-or-flight response in high gear--their prefrontal cortex switches off, and that's why you get weird responses from their hindbrains.

 

That said, my kid isn't "shy", either.  She will happily play with another child in small groups, and be on teams, etc.  She loves soccer and swimming and such like.  Just the thought of being on display is too much for her.  Maybe he felt like tae kwon do was a thing where he'd be on display?

[lacell]

Agreeing with PP. Give your son time.

 

My son refused to participate in any activities until he was 7 or so. He would wander off the field. He'd scream if I re-directed him back to play. He'd chase dragonflies in the middle of a game. We tried t-ball, soccer, tae kwon do, swimming, art, etc. The only place he enjoyed was his pre-school which was play-based. We finally stopped signing him up for activities until he asked to join.

 

He was and still is the sweetest kid. Now, he loves all sports: track, basketball, soccer, swimming, baseball, golf. He spent time in gymnastics and tae kwon do and loved both. He is extremely social, and DH and I are complimented often on his polite and outgoing personality. His reluctance at five wasn't forever. I'm glad we stopped forcing him to participate in anything until he was ready.

 

That's encouraging :)

 

[lacell]

 

 

Well, that depends on how you look at it.   In my understanding, "character" develops out of doing things a certain way, over and over, so that these habits of thinking and behaving become ingrained.   So even if anxiety begins for reasons beyond a child's control, the way the adult guides them through handling it can affect the formation of their character.   

 

OP, FWIW, I agree with you about "dying to self" for the greater good.   Many people on these boards seem to take an individualistic viewpoint, but that's not our family's way either.  

 

You said "he really is disciplined diligently."  At home, will he join in on music and movement activities?  Recite a short verse?   Sing along with you if you ask him?  These are the sorts of things that would be reasonable for a 5 year old.   

 

And I have children who balk at doing those things, both at home and in public.  So I know it's tough.   But I've found that being firm, starting very small, and treating the activity as a expectation like any other (brushing teeth, picking up toys, etc.), works out much better than just letting it slide and hoping they'll grow out of it.  

 

Keep in mind, too, that for children, thinking they're in control can cause anxiety.   I think bright children are especially prone to getting themselves into a state like this, because they can perceive -- and partly understand -- more than they're able to handle.

 

ETA:  You might also check out Rudolf Dreikurs' work, including "Children:  The Challenge."   I think his approach "gets" what's going on with this sort of situation, more than many others do.  

 

Thanks - very helpful.

[lacell]

"he really is disciplined diligently." May I gently ask what you mean by this? Do you mean discipline as in treating him as a disciple- teaching him by your good example, or do you mean more of a "pop him with a swich every time he does something we don't want him to do" kind of discipline?

 

It sounds like the Tae Kwon Do teacher is a good, gentle person.  If and when your son is ready and interested- sign him up there!

 

And many kids off all ages don't like group things.  The saddest sight to me is the sweet little 4yo girl who develops a lifelong hatred of dance because her mom forced her into crowded noisy dance classrooms and shoved her onto a giant scary stage with hundreds of stragners staring at her during the recital- and then "disciplined" her by yelling or spanking for crying and refusing to move onstage.

 

Also, I don't think there is a significant good or cause in group activities such as children's Christmas pageants, TKD or dance classes, or soccer games. Sure- there is the "whole team suffers if you quit in the middle of the season" aspect, but there is no harm in not starting at all. Plenty of years ahead to work into group activities or classes. Or maybe solo sports like track (on a team, but individually timed) will be a better fit.

 

When I say diligently, I am referring to consistency and perseverance. Yes, we disciple and model. Yes we also spank, but only for outright rebellion such as rude talk to us or digging his heels in and saying he absolutely won't obey. We give rewards and logical consequences for other things or just let natural consequences fall. Time out doesn't work for him, and going to his room makes him feel rejected. We attempt to praise more than correct. We try to catch him doing something good and build on it. We try to be patient and not raise our voice or get emotional - hard. We tell him over and over that our love for him is not dependent on his actions. My point is, we are not absent parents who let their kid just do whatever, which is how he acts a lot of the time.

 

[ElizaG]

Well, yes - but you have to look at the developmental stage of the child.  If I had insisted on teaching Calvin to tie his shoe laces or ride a bike at six, he would have spent three years doing it wrong before he became physically capable of doing it at all.

 

(...) Of course, things like rudeness have to be worked on, but that can be done gently at home with quiet correction, not on the stage of a public class.

 

The bolded is what I meant by "starting very small."   :001_smile:  Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

If a five year old child can do something by himself (e.g., singing a song), but flatly refuses to do it with his mother joining in, I don't think this is a question of developmental stages.  It's a question of what Christians traditionally called "self-will."  And this tendency is certainly present in children, long before the self is fully formed.  

 

It turns out that the overcoming of self-will used to be recognized as a reason for having rhythmic activities and singing in schools, starting in kindergarten.  

 

Why Music Should Form Part of the Curriculum of Studies in Our Schools -- National Catholic Educational Association Bulletin, 1922

 

That said, I do agree on holding off on the outside classes.   The kindergarten teacher of the 1920s generally had extensive training and experience in guiding children through these challenges.   The leaders of many of today's "group activities" aren't nearly so competent, and even if they know what to do, they're usually on a tight schedule.   And going about this in the wrong way, especially in public, can do a lot of harm.  

[lacell]

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up, and I hate to be the one to say this, because I think it's terribly over-diagnosed....but, here goes: is there any chance he might be a tad autistic?  IMHO, social anxiety and high-functioning autism run together like peanut butter and jelly.  That whole thing about personal space and dignity and "off" social responses kind of make me go, "hmmm...."

 

Social anxiety gets worse when you push them, because their terror level just goes through the roof.  My child actually flatly refused to do piano lessons after her teacher mentioned as an enticement that there are recitals.  The mere thought of a recital was enough to turn her off of piano lessons. And dance class. etc.  It's the fight-or-flight response in high gear--their prefrontal cortex switches off, and that's why you get weird responses from their hindbrains.

 

That said, my kid isn't "shy", either.  She will happily play with another child in small groups, and be on teams, etc.  She loves soccer and swimming and such like.  Just the thought of being on display is too much for her.  Maybe he felt like tae kwon do was a thing where he'd be on display?

I have considered that possibility. There are things about him that make me question any autism diagnosis, but I will keep that in mind. Sensory processing perhaps. I have thought about getting him evaluated but am concerned about labels.

 

[Courtney_Ostaff]

I have considered that possibility. There are things about him that make me question any autism diagnosis, but I will keep that in mind. Sensory processing perhaps. I have thought about getting him evaluated but am concerned about labels.

 

 

I hate labeling kids, too.  From then on,it's all about what they can't do, rather than what they can do. :(

[ElizaG]

One more thing comes to mind (and I was going to suggest this even before your last post)...  

 

You might look at the theory behind RDI, or Relationship Development Intervention.   It was originally developed for autism, and has also been used for ADHD, anxiety, and medically complex children.   But it seems to me that a lot of today's families could use help with the "guided participation relationship," regardless of whether or not their children, or they themselves, have a particular diagnosis.   

 

We haven't really gone in for the specific activities they suggest in their books, but even just trying to do the preparatory work -- as described here (minus the videotaping) -- has had huge benefits for our whole family, including the ones who didn't seem to be having any particular "issues."  

[lacell]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. It has given me a lot to think about, such as my own issues of control and making sure I truly have his best interests at heart and not being overly concerned about my reputation. I think maybe some people misunderstood what I meant when I said it was a character issue. I don't consider his social anxiety to be a character issue. I am a licensed therapist, so I do know that there are some things that anxious kids can't help doing and I do understand development. I'm talking more about his obstinancy and unwillingness to share the limelight. You will just have to take my word for it that there is more to it that I could share in one post.

 

I think I may also have a different philosophy about my child's activities and choices than many who replied. I wouldn't call myself a "tiger mom," but I do believe that there are times that I know what is best for my child to participate in  more than he could possibly know at his age. Throughout his childhood I will be choosing some of his school work and activities for him; I don't strictly follow an unschooling philosphy in academics or extra-curriculars, though there are aspects of unschooling we practice, and I am a big fan of discovery learning. He leads his own learning much of the time.

 

That being said, I don't disregard his interests and gifts either, and as he gets older and has tried more things, I will allow more freedom of choice. I chose TaeKwonDo because it's a good fit for him in many ways. It's not that he doesn't like it. It's that he can't do it on his own. He doesn't like to be "taught." How do I know this? He told me a couple of months ago. I gave him a list of things and asked what he would like to take lessons in. Long and short of the discussion is that he wanted to do most of it but didn't want anyone to teach him. He wanted to just do it his own way, the best he knows how. Perhaps this is going to be an unpopular thing to say, but I consider that to be character problem - being stubborn and unteachable that is, and it manifests in many ways in and out of our home. I don't think he will grow out of it b/c it seems to worsen with time. About the dying to self thing, that is part of our religious beliefs that I am sure many don't share. I do believe children are capable of doing it at a young age, and I have witnessed him do it before. I don't mean denying his feelings or lying to himself or being someone he is not. I mean choosing to lay down his interests/desire for the good of someone else or the group, often temporarily.

 

I would not force him to do TaeKwonDo or any other activity other than church if he didn't like it, as long as he has shown some interest or given it a fair try. I just want him to try because I really think he will enjoy it if he does. I saw him laughing a bit as he was watching in fact. Before I took him, he had shown an interest in doing karate. Truly he would do this with any other activity of his choosing - even private lessons. With regard to the rudeness, I think everyone is right that he may not realize how rude he was acting. There were other rude things he said, though, like loudly saying "Bo-ring" over and over. And he absolutely glared at the teacher.  I think he really is an angry child, frankly, and I am having to really examine myself to see what role I have played in that. I am reading a book about it at the moment. Thanks everyone for taking time out of your busy schedules for your thoughts!!!

 

[lacell]

The bolded is what I meant by "starting very small."   :001_smile:  Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

If a five year old child can do something by himself (e.g., singing a song), but flatly refuses to do it with his mother joining in, I don't think this is a question of developmental stages.  It's a question of what Christians traditionally called "self-will."  And this tendency is certainly present in children, long before the self is fully formed.  

 

It turns out that the overcoming of self-will used to be recognized as a reason for having rhythmic activities and singing in schools, starting in kindergarten.  

 

Why Music Should Form Part of the Curriculum of the Studies in Our Schools -- National Catholic Educational Association Bulletin, 1922

 

That said, I do agree on holding off on the outside classes.   The kindergarten teacher of the 1920s generally had extensive training and experience in guiding children through these challenges.   The leaders of many of today's "group activities" aren't nearly so competent, and even if they know what to do, they're usually on a tight schedule.   And going about this in the wrong way, especially in public, can do a lot of harm.  

 

Pricelessly what I am talking about! Even from a very young age, he would not let me join along. Some of that, though, I am convinced is sensory issues with his hearing. He covers his ears a lot. But there is no doubt he is very strong willed. His father and I are as well, so we must try so very hard not to be selfish or abuse our authority when guiding him. That is a fascinating piece of history about the lessons. I heed your concerns about the inexperienced instructors. This place is amazing, though. They are so positive and patient. We don't have a co-op right now, and I believe he really needs something out of our home this summer. He is with me 24/7, and I'm not sure that is a good idea right now.

 

 

[lacell]

One more thing comes to mind (and I was going to suggest this even before your last post)...  

 

You might look at the theory behind RDI, or Relationship Development Intervention.   It was originally developed for autism, and has also been used for ADHD, anxiety, and medically complex children.   But it seems to me that a lot of today's families could use help with the "guided participation relationship," regardless of whether or not their children, or they themselves, have a particular diagnosis.   

 

We haven't really gone in for the specific activities they suggest in their books, but even just trying to do the preparatory work -- as described here (minus the videotaping) -- has had huge benefits for our whole family, including the ones who didn't seem to be having any particular "issues."  

 

Thanks. I have considered this as well. My play therapy training has helped me some with this. I try to pretend I am doing play therapy with him sometimes. I am also trying hard to give him as much freedom of choice as possible, giving up my will on things that aren't moral issues or don't really matter, ie. disciplining my own self will :)

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if he feels you are teaching him that he is the wrong kind of person and should be someone else. Some kids in that situation try to be someone else, others stubbornly refuse and will kick anyone they feel is trying to steal their selfhood away. You don't get anyone's best self when they are in crisis mode.

 

Rude language is absolutely an appropriate problem to address with a 5yo. And a 6yo. And a 7yo… Being considerate is a good thing to generally work on, because it sure does take practice.
Dying to self needs to wait until he has the space to develop that kind of generosity, other than emergency situations like "yes, you will visit your dying grandmother because she desperately wants to see you and we are always nice to dying people." I think this can only happen if he's allowed to save up enough of himself to feel he has some to spare. I bet he needs to feel (in time) that dying to self is a nice generous thing to do, rather than not dying to self being a stingy, nasty, bad person thing to do. People have a right to the possession of their own souls and I strongly believe that no matter who else has the right to make demands, whether that is siblings, parents, spouses, or deities.

[Rosie_0801]

On the subject of sensory hearing problems, my son's trouble with that (used to run screaming at the mere sight of the blender) decreased as his retained Moro reflex decreased in severity. If your son hates or used to really hate spinning or being upside down, look into that.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I take Tae Kwon Do at a church that does it as a family ministry. My oldest started the kids' program at 4 1/2 and is about to move up to the adult (meaning ages 7-8 and up) class. I wouldn't make TKD a battle at 5. From all the kids I've watched, none of the boys under age 10-12 really put much effort in. The girls start can start focusing more at ages 8-10.

 

My oldest does competitive gymnastics. He joined the team at 7, but the coach warned me that the boys consistently don't really started to focus and work hard until age 8-9. In comparison, the girls I watch seem to be able to focus at ages 6-8. 

 

I've also coached soccer for kids 5-10. My experience in these three sports leads to me to believe that sports before ages 6-8 should just be for fun, if the kid in enjoying it. Expecting much more, even from very competitive athletic kids, is too much. I read a book years ago where the author went through the reasons why sports before age 6 are generally a waste of time, especially if the kid isn't absolutely begging to participate, and based on my experience, I agree. 

 

For what it's worth, I am a Christian, and I think your expectation of using TKD to teach a 5 year-old to die to self is unrealistic. Like the others said, when your oldest is 5, he seems so old. When your second child hits 5, you realize that 5 is just leaving the baby/preschool stage.

[lacell]

I wonder if he feels you are teaching him that he is the wrong kind of person and should be someone else. Some kids in that situation try to be someone else, others stubbornly refuse and will kick anyone they feel is trying to steal their selfhood away. You don't get anyone's best self when they are in crisis mode.

 

Rude language is absolutely an appropriate problem to address with a 5yo. And a 6yo. And a 7yo… Being considerate is a good thing to generally work on, because it sure does take practice.

Dying to self needs to wait until he has the space to develop that kind of generosity, other than emergency situations like "yes, you will visit your dying grandmother because she desperately wants to see you and we are always nice to dying people." I think this can only happen if he's allowed to save up enough of himself to feel he has some to spare. I bet he needs to feel (in time) that dying to self is a nice generous thing to do, rather than not dying to self being a stingy, nasty, bad person thing to do. People have a right to the possession of their own souls and I strongly believe that no matter who else has the right to make demands, whether that is siblings, parents, spouses, or deities.

 

While I can't say I agree with everything you said, I do think it is a good reminder for me to remember that it really is about a choice, and that I can't force him/make him choose to do unselfish things, at least not from the heart. But I don't think that means we should wait either. Otherwise, why would be teach a 2 year old to say "sorry" when you know they don't mean it. One thing that has been helping me lately is to slow down and ask myself, "Is this coming from love or a place of control or a controlling spirit/manner?"

[texasmama]

As one licensed therapist mama to another, and since you seem to be very open to feedback, I will tell you that I expected too much too soon of my first child (in spite of my licensed therapist specializing in kids/adolescents/families status).  I was concerned that behaviors at 5 would become ingrained and be behaviors at 15.  Much of what I fretted about (not that you are fretting) was developmental.  For me, it took parenting my oldest through those developmental stages to see that they are truly developmental.  Kids develop into them and then develop out of them.

 

That said, the behaviors you describe by your son (saying "boring!" repeatedly very loudly so the teacher will hear) are rude and would ding my radar as unacceptable even for a 5 year old.  He may have SPD or have some spectrum-ish behaviors or have something else going on or not.  He is young so these things are hard to tease out unless they are very obvious at this stage, IMO. 

 

"Dying to self" is part of our family's Christian beliefs, but I don't expect that of any five year old.  I recall my oldest child being about five and being very "gimme, gimme".  I was so horrified by this that I purchased a doll and had her donate it into a box for needy kids at Christmas to teach her that we give to others.  I didn't realize at the time that this was developmentally appropriate (in spite of my own therapist self).  It is hard to see your own kids objectively.  In fact, it is impossible, which is why therapists take their kids for therapy sometimes.  :)

 

Again, all that is free of charge, but you remind me a lot of my younger self, and these are things that would have been good for me to wrap my arms around.  Either way, you sound like a concerned and caring mama, and I wish you the best.

[lacell]

I take Tae Kwon Do at a church that does it as a family ministry. My oldest started the kids' program at 4 1/2 and is about to move up to the adult (meaning ages 7-8 and up) class. I wouldn't make TKD a battle at 5. From all the kids I've watched, none of the boys under age 10-12 really put much effort in. The girls start can start focusing more at ages 8-10.

 

My oldest does competitive gymnastics. He joined the team at 7, but the coach warned me that the boys consistently don't really started to focus and work hard until age 8-9. In comparison, the girls I watch seem to be able to focus at ages 6-8. 

 

I've also coached soccer for kids 5-10. My experience in these three sports leads to me to believe that sports before ages 6-8 should just be for fun, if the kid in enjoying it. Expecting much more, even from very competitive athletic kids, is too much. I read a book years ago where the author went through the reasons why sports before age 6 are generally a waste of time, especially if the kid isn't absolutely begging to participate, and based on my experience, I agree. 

 

For what it's worth, I am a Christian, and I think your expectation of using TKD to teach a 5 year-old to die to self is unrealistic. Like the others said, when your oldest is 5, he seems so old. When your second child hits 5, you realize that 5 is just leaving the baby/preschool stage.

 

Thanks. The class is a "cubs" class. It is very fun and relaxed. They don't teach the full form, and it only lasts 45 minutes. All the kids in the class were smiling/laughing. I don't expect the class to teach him to die to self, and I don't expect him to master that at his age. In fact, I don't expect anyone to master it this side of heaven; I certainly haven't :) What I was trying to communicate is that I see a character trait developing in which he does not want to submit his will to anyone, much less a group of "anyones," and that that is not compatible with a Christian worldview.

 

It's not so much about TaeKnowDo or not. It's about whether or not to insist on any group activity for him. He will object to any of them. What you said about the family class is interesting. If it truly is anxiety related, then perhaps his dad or I could do the all ages white belt class with him instead of the cub class?

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

You teach a 2yo to say sorry. You don't teach a 2yo to say "My humblest apologies. I am mortified to have caused you such discomfort and I wish to make amends."

I'm not sure how my post reminded you that it is all about choice because what I meant was you can't get blood out of a stone. Like Chris said upthread, a 5yo hasn't got enough self to die to yet.

 

I'm not sure this is about a Christian world view either. None of us want our kids to grow up to be egocentric gits. I'm sure we've all met enough of them. We've probably also met too many people who endure a lot of heartache from not having a strong enough sense of self, because they were taught growing up that this was an evil thing.

[lacell]

As one licensed therapist mama to another, and since you seem to be very open to feedback, I will tell you that I expected too much too soon of my first child (in spite of my licensed therapist specializing in kids/adolescents/families status).  I was concerned that behaviors at 5 would become ingrained and be behaviors at 15.  Much of what I fretted about (not that you are fretting) was developmental.  For me, it took parenting my oldest through those developmental stages to see that they are truly developmental.  Kids develop into them and then develop out of them.

 

That said, the behaviors you describe by your son (saying "boring!" repeatedly very loudly so the teacher will hear) are rude and would ding my radar as unacceptable even for a 5 year old.  He may have SPD or have some spectrum-ish behaviors or have something else going on or not.  He is young so these things are hard to tease out unless they are very obvious at this stage, IMO. 

 

"Dying to self" is part of our family's Christian beliefs, but I don't expect that of any five year old.  I recall my oldest child being about five and being very "gimme, gimme".  I was so horrified by this that I purchased a doll and had her donate it into a box for needy kids at Christmas to teach her that we give to others.  I didn't realize at the time that this was developmentally appropriate (in spite of my own therapist self).  It is hard to see your own kids objectively.  In fact, it is impossible, which is why therapists take their kids for therapy sometimes.  :)

 

Again, all that is free of charge, but you remind me a lot of my younger self, and these are things that would have been good for me to wrap my arms around.  Either way, you sound like a concerned and caring mama, and I wish you the best.

Thanks for the warm words. Perhaps you are right. It may be that the times I thought I was seeing him or his younger siblings "dying to self" was simply enlightened self-interest rather than true kindness from true empathy?

 

 

[lacell]

You teach a 2yo to say sorry. You don't teach a 2yo to say "My humblest apologies. I am mortified to have caused you such discomfort and I wish to make amends."

 

I'm not sure how my post reminded you that it is all about choice because what I meant was you can't get blood out of a stone. Like Chris said upthread, a 5yo hasn't got enough self to die to yet.

 

I'm not sure this is about a Christian world view either. None of us want our kids to grow up to be egocentric gits. I'm sure we've all met enough of them. We've probably also met too many people who endure a lot of heartache from not having a strong enough sense of self, because they were taught growing up that this was an evil thing.

 

Yes, I got that out of your post as well. The reason it made me think of choice, is b/c of what you said about the "soul." I agree that people of different faiths/beliefs can share the same value of selflessness and denying self for the group, and there are Christians who would not agree with me on that issue.. But that phrase "dying to self" is often used by Christians, along with Jesus' saying of "take up your cross." I was responding to the person who thought dying to self was denying one's personhood.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I highlighted some things that stand out to me.

 

My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing.

I about DIED of embarrassment RIGHT THERE! If I saw a kid acting like that, I would think he was never disciplined

But he does seem to have some social anxiety

 

 

 

 

my own issues of control and making sure I truly have his best interests at heart and not being overly concerned about my reputation.

 

I know what is best for my child to participate in  more than he could possibly know at his age. Throughout his childhood I will be choosing some of his school work and activities for him;

 

I chose TaeKwonDo because it's a good fit for him in many ways. It's not that he doesn't like it. It's that he can't do it on his own. He doesn't like to be "taught."

 

 

I am convinced is sensory issues with his hearing.

But there is no doubt he is very strong willed. 
 

 

Gently, are you part of a church where people are extremely focused on "disciplining" their kids? I spent five years at a church where many people followed Michael Pearl's approach. Several of the things you said remind me of how they thought/think about their kids. We joined before we had kids and it resulted in us having ridiculously high expectations of how a 1-10 year old should behave. We left there three years ago, and DH still struggles with the mindset. When you are surrounded by kids whose behavior seems "perfect," it's easy to think that's normal. The reality is, if you have you spank your kids 10-50 times per day for their "bad behavior," then your expectations are too high. 

 

You were embarrassed at TKD, but I can assure you that the teacher has seen worse behavior from kids that age. TKD is a sport that takes a very high amount of focus and attention to detail to succeed in. Expecting a child who can't even tie his own shoes or ride a bike to work hard at it is too much. It might be a great fit for him…later! It doesn't have to be now. Try again in 3-4 years. Really, I mean it. If he isn't in love with it now, don't waste your money. Whether he starts at 5 or 9, by age 10, he'll be in the same place (unless you are at a McDojo).

 

I make my second grader do subjects he doesn't want to do. Choosing to back off of TKD at this age in no way means that you are giving him control of what subjects to cover when he's older. It just means you realize it isn't worth the time, money, and stress to force a kid that you suspect may have ASD or SPD into an activity he isn't ready for yet.

 

My oldest has given us lots of trouble over the years. I have looked into everything from ADHD, to SPD, to being "strong-willed." I've started many threads about my frustration with him. The women here have "talked me down" several times. They've gently pointed out that my expectations were damaging the relationship. I've changed some things this year and we're seeing some progress.

 

If you find many in this thread suggesting that you back off, please consider listening.

[texasmama]

Thanks for the warm words. Perhaps you are right. It may be that the times I thought I was seeing him or his younger siblings "dying to self" was simply enlightened self-interest rather than true kindness from true empathy?

 

Possibly.  My kids have all been capable of kindness to others at the age of five, but it was at a beginning stage at that point.  I think it is possible for young kids to have true empathy, but just as adults have differing degrees of ability/insight regarding the feelings/needs of others, so do kids.  And a five year old can only have so much true empathy, IMO.  The "dying to self" referred to in the Bible is not really going to happen until kids are much older.  Some of these things will be much easier to interpret from a vantage point of ten years hence.  It has been almost 14 years since my first child was five.  :)

[Arcadia]

Long and short of the discussion is that he wanted to do most of it but didn't want anyone to teach him. He wanted to just do it his own way, the best he knows how. 

... There were other rude things he said, though, like loudly saying "Bo-ring" over and over. And he absolutely glared at the teacher. 

 

I've gone down this road with my 9 year old.  YouTube and instructional DVDs can be your friend depending on your family's stand on screen time. Another way my 9 year old learn is to be a silent observer, because again he feels that the control is on him rather than the teacher. He learns sports by watching how instructors teach other kids. 

 

As to the other rude things,  it could be a coping mechanism for him.   Mine does the "Boring" routine when he is really bored but yet do not want to leave in case he miss anything exciting coming up.

 

I think your child needs to be in control more than a typical child. If you think of going for an evaluation down the road, autism diagnosis can be done for free through school even though it may not be perfect while SPD is done through insurance.

 

. But there is no doubt he is very strong willed. His father and I are as well, so we must try so very hard not to be selfish or abuse our authority when guiding him.

...... He is with me 24/7, and I'm not sure that is a good idea right now.

 

Look into your own childhood for inspiration or guidance.  With my boys, I sometimes get a feeling of deja vu. Sometimes I even ask my older cousins who had babysat me for opinions and advice.

Parents night out at the gym helped my boy at that age.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

The difference in attention span between 5 year old boys and 9 year old boys in a group class is huge! 45 minutes may be too long for many boys that age, depending on what they are doing. I would venture to say that most 5 year old boys don't really do that well in classes like that…not consistently behaving the way you seem to think is normal for Christian families. If it seems like I am being hard on you, please think about how you were upset a 3 year old didn't do what the coach wanted at T-ball. Many kids that age still aren't potty trained! We're into sports, but we think it's crazy for towns to offer sports leagues to kids that can barely run.

[sassenach]

Before I even got to that part of your post, I was thinking social anxiety.  This is exactly how my ds is, and he struggles with social anxiety.  SA definitely can appear as rudeness.  I don't think it's wrong to coach a kid through this, but I do think there are both effective and highly ineffective ways to approach this issue.  At your son's age- let it go.  Focus your efforts on preparing for social situations, and praising him for his wins. Give him a few more goes at TKD and if he's not into it, drop it.  

 

Personally, I found that 7/8 was a good window to really work on overcoming SA struggles. You're going to be tempted to freak out over his immaturity and lack of progress around 7 years old. Don't. Seven is the parental freak out year, but 8, 9 (especially), and 10 are big growth years. Around 9 something really shifted with ds where I finally felt like he was going to be functional.  You have to wait till that magic age where maturity and desire to be included give them the power to overcome the internal discomfort involved in social situations.  5 is not that age.

 

My kid who at 5 and 6 would not look people in the eye (this is still not his favorite), speak to any adult other than family, or let me leave him anywhere without me peeling him off of my leg, volunteered for the lead role in a competition skit and performed in front of a group of total strangers (at 11).  

 

Lastly, I'd bet money that that wasn't the worst thing the TKD instructor has ever heard come out of the mouth of a 5yo.  I know it's not the worst that I've heard!

 

 

 

[lacell]

Possibly.  My kids have all been capable of kindness to others at the age of five, but it was at a beginning stage at that point.  I think it is possible for young kids to have true empathy, but just as adults have differing degrees of ability/insight regarding the feelings/needs of others, so do kids.  And a five year old can only have so much true empathy, IMO.  The "dying to self" referred to in the Bible is not really going to happen until kids are much older.  Some of these things will be much easier to interpret from a vantage point of ten years hence.  It has been almost 14 years since my first child was five.  :)

 

Right, I see what you mean. I was really referring to "baby steps" in terms of dying to self. I dont' believe in waiting to start to use this kind of language with kids or hold them accountable when they aren't taking those baby steps. When I say hold them accountable, I mean verbally and gently reminding. I don't punish for such things.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think wanting our kids to not be selfish is a good goal. However, things need to happen in the right order. In my opinion, "dying to self" is something the Holy Spirit works on in believers, not something parents can force on kids that can't even make a sandwich or their bed without help. You have plenty of years to encourage him in his faith without trying to push goals on a little kid that even adults with decade of experience struggle with.

 

Just take a deep breath. It's not a race. Give room for God to do the work.

[AlmiraGulch]

It seems to me that your child is not living up to your image in your head of what you wanted in a child.  Mind you, I could be completely wrong here, but the reason I'm saying it is because I've lived with a very similar child and had similar frustrations to what you're expressing.  Part of my issue, I realize in hind sight, was that I wanted to be the parent with the kid in activities.  I wanted to be on the sidelines, or in the audience, rooting on my kids.  I wanted to take my turn bringing snacks for the team.  I wanted the Polaroid moments.  I never got them.

 

Respectfully, I do not understand how the sentiment of "dying of self to serve the greater good" is at all applicable in this circumstance.  For whose good?  For a team he isn't a part of?  For yours, because it's what you want?  Why would you force a child to participate in extracurricular activities he has not expressed interest in at such a young, tender age?  What good will come of it?  He will not enjoy it.  You will not enjoy it.  You will waste your time and money and nothing will be gained.  I'm even a bit disturbed by your description of him.  You say he has  "fiercely independent spirit" as if it's a bad thing.  It isn't.  Cultivate it.  Nurture it.  Support it.   Just don't crush it.  You will be doing more damage than you can even imagine.  

 

He will find his way.  He will find his interests if you keep exposing him to different things.  Just give him time.  

[In2why]

I wouldn't sign him up.  He doesn't want to do it and if you make him, he will be miserable, you will be miserable, and all of the kids that really want to be there will be miserable.   I don't think he is rude, he just isn't ready.  

[lacell]

The difference in attention span between 5 year old boys and 9 year old boys in a group class is huge! 45 minutes may be too long for many boys that age, depending on what they are doing. I would venture to say that most 5 year old boys don't really do that well in classes like that…not consistently behaving the way you seem to think is normal for Christian families. If it seems like I am being hard on you, please think about how you were upset a 3 year old didn't do what the coach wanted at T-ball. Many kids that age still aren't potty trained! We're into sports, but we think it's crazy for towns to offer sports leagues to kids that can barely run.

 

The kids in the cub class we observed did beautifully, some more awkward that others, but all seemed to be having a great time! But of course, that doesn't show how many tried and quit or came to watch and said they didn't want to do it:) Regarding the T-ball, he was literally the ONLY kid acting like he was acting. It was beyond typical 3 year old behavior. It was not just ignoring the coach, but a variety of other behaviors. In retrospect, we should have waited on the T-ball. The rudeness we saw yesterday is also beyond typical 5 year old behavior. You would have to hear the tone, the volume and see the body language to grasp the gravity of it. But then again, perhaps if you had been there, it would not have shocked you.

 

[LMD]

Force my rude child to do group activities?  In a word, no.  In my opinion, I wouldn't.  I have a child who is nearly 4 who is very similar in personality to how you describe your son.   :grouphug:  It is TOUGH.  At the moment I don't force him to participate in any group things, he goes to creche at church occasionally but I don't make him stay if he's had enough (or if he gets in trouble!).

 

Anyway, my oldest wasn't rude, but really REALLY did not like group activities.  HATED them.  She loved to go to youth group, but when they all sat in a circle she'd slink off to a corner and glare at everyone, an obstinate answer would not have been unusual - a defense mechanism because she hated to be the centre of attention, and an adult asking a 5 year old questions is pretty confronting if they already feel out of their comfort zone.  We taught her that she didn't have to do something if she wasn't comfortable, but she was not allowed to be rude about it.  We taught her a script to say to one of the leaders (I don't recall the exact words) and it wasn't a problem.  She sat back and watched for a long while, the leaders and I gently encouraged her to try from time to time - respecting her polite 'no's.  She slowly started participating here and there.  Now (she's nearly 9) you would never know that she had been so shy, she can participate with the best extrovert!  But, and this is what was so important to me through all of this stage, she knows that she has a right to feel safe and that I will back her up.

I kept in mind during all of this her father's personality - social anxiety - and the infamous story of him hiding in a toy box (lid closed) at his own birthday party... he turned out ok!

I did start her in music instrument lessons, something that didn't require a group of loud, howling, running, scary kids and multiple new adults, just one nice, gently spoken teacher!  I agree with your philosophy about choosing good things for them and gently pushing participation - I'd just look for a better match!

 

I also agree with the PP that your oldest at 5 looks so grown up!  It felt that way to me.  Now 5 years old looks like a baby!