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I'm a little scared but...what the heck...ask a Catholic


ktgrok
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Please, we've tried this before, and it has gotten kind of ugly. So for that reason I'm going to request that this not become arguing over scripture meaning, etc. I'm happy to state beliefs, or state I don't know if I don't (I'm a convert, so that colors things), but I'm not going to argue. I'll explain, but not argue, so that I don't hurt anyone's feelings, etc. 

 

So, that said, any questions?

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Catholicism appeals to me. I was raised in a Lutheran church. Is converting difficult? The thought of even visiting intimidates me!

 

The normal process for conversion is to attend RCIA classes, Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. Technically, those that are baptized Christians should not be part of those classes, and should have something shorter tailored for them, but in reality most parishes put converts from other Christian faiths and unbaptized people of no former faith together in RCIA. Typically you go once a week for an hour or so. Most places in my experience have classes that start around September, and you join the Church at the Easter Vigil service. Everyone is very welcoming, and you do NOT have to make any commitments when you first start attending classes. It is fine to start, and change your mind. 

 

Oh, and the technical term for one that is Christian and converting to Catholicism is "Entering into Full Communion". 

 

I am a convert from the Episcopal church :)

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Catholicism appeals to me. I was raised in a Lutheran church. Is converting difficult? The thought of even visiting intimidates me!

 

Don't be intimidated to visit!  No one will single you out, just show up. It isn't THAT different from a Lutheran service, you will recognize a lot of it. Follow along as you can, stand and kneel when others do, you will be fine. No one will point and yell "protestant, protestant!" I promise :)

 

You probably know this, but you should NOT receive communion when visiting. Just making sure though. You can go up in the line, with your arms crossed to show you are not receiving, and get a blessing if you wish. You won't be the only one...i'm Catholic and because I'm waiting on my annulment I'm not receiving communion right now. Others might have forgotten to fast, or for some other reason be abstaining. And of course, the RCIA people won't be receiving either. 

 

And don't worry about the motions/etc. Heck, half the time I forget to genuflect because I'm herding a kid out of the aisle, or can't cross myself because I have a kid in my arms. So no one will care or notice if you don't do these things. 

 

 

(the super traditional Catholics frown on the "come up with your arms crossed" thing, but I've only seen/heard of this displeasure on the internet...in actual practice it is the norm to do the arms crossed get a blessing thing. I think they do it to get everyone out of the pew so that it is easier to process back in, lol!  Father always specifically requests that those not receiving come up, actually. And last Sunday I was particularly moved when the young priest that i went to said, "may you receive the Body of Christ in your soul" when he blessed me. I got goose bumps actually. )

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What called you to Catholicism?

 

hhmmm. different things. lots of things. 

 

As a kid I was jealous of my Catholic friends. I lived in walking distance from a Catholic Church, which is unusual in South Florida I think. I had lots of Catholic friends and I was drawn to it even then. In college I majored in Religion (at a secular school). I took a graduate level class on Modern Catholicism (from Trent forward) and it was fascinating to me. I loved it, warts and all. The amount of scholarship, thinking, philosophy...the book nerd/religion junky loved it. But it was just something to study, not BE at that point. 

 

Years later I got married and moved to a smaller town without an Episcopal Church that I liked. I tried a few parishes, and just wasn't happy. I prayed, and realized there were several Catholic churches within a few miles. I'd never actually attended one. I wanted to, I'd daydreamed about becoming Catholic a few times, but thought I shouldn't because my family wasn't, and they wouldn't be able to go with me, take communion with me. Finally, one day I realized wait, they dont' go wtih me NOW, so why am I denying myself this avenue because of them? My mom didn't attend church regularly, and half the time didn't even go on Christmas. NEVER on Easter. My husband was now buddhist. My son was young enough it didn't matter to him. So I went. I tried a few parishes and felt something...I don't know what. Felt home. Went to an RCIA class just to see what it was about. Got hooked on the theological handouts and such. Ended up joining the Church at the most amazing Easter Vigil service I've ever been to. I can't explain how holy it was. There were choirs singing in 6 different languages, chanting holy water, incense...and just this sense of timelessness, of unity, of knowing the same songs and readings and chants were being said all over the entire world that night. 

 

Then....I got divorced. I moved back to my home town. The first Mass I went to there was awful, my son was angry about the move, angry about the divorce, angry at everything, and punched a random person in the communion line. I didn't go back there. I also wasn't ready to deal with the annulment process, and out of what really was denial, i just went back to the Episcopal church that I'd been baptized at for a while. Then got my head on straight and started going to Mass again, but never did the annulment. 

 

When I fell in love again he wasn't Catholic. His extended family was, but he'd been raised Episcopal. I loved him, and wanted to make things "easier" so said I'd be fine with the Episcopal Church too. We got a dispensation from the Bishop to marry due to my divorce, and were married by an Episcopal priest overseas. There ARE things I love in the Episcopal church, so ti worked for a while. But eventually I felt the calling to go back to the Catholic Church. I put it off, saying that it was more important that we all go together than that I go to the "right" place. Except..we weren't going. My husband prefers to stay home Sunday's anyway. So..if he doesn't want to go, and I want to go somewhere else, why are we doing this?  So last year I told him I was going back to the Catholic Church. I go to Mass with the kids, he stays home. Sometimes one kids stays with him. The teen aspie is close to Agnostic, but agrees to go to Youth Faith Formation Classes, but has not shown a desire to receive the sacraments. I pray he will. It's up to him at this age. 

 

DH may or may not convert one day, I pray, but that is also up to him. But I am where I'm supposed to be, and my annulment, thankfully is almost final. In the next month or so we will have our marriage convalidated by the Church and then I can receive communion again. 

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Here is my question: Did you know that the leaders of the Catholic Church in SLC, UT and the leaders of my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, meet together and do service projects together? I think that is awesome. I don't have any specific questions to ask you about your faith or conversion. :) I don't have any specific examples to give you of what they've done, I remember reading in church news some of the charitable events/projects that have been held to benefit the needy and these events were put together through a concerted effort of both churches.

When the new stake center in my area was built (a small city in Texas) and we were having open house there, the Catholic church leader from the nearby church, came over before it started and told a friend who was there decorating and setting up that he was sorry he wasn't going to be able to attend as he was having a service at that time but he wished our congregation well and was very warm and friendly.

 

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One downside of crossed-arms-for-blessing-only is that Eastern Rite Catholics cross their arms when they approach to receive, and it can be confusing in an area like mine where there is a substantial Eastern Rite presence. And where there is an altar rail, it can be difficult to see if the person has arms folded, and the priest often has to ask if they're requesting communion.

 

Relatedly, in parishes where reception on the tongue is rare, approaching with folded hands is often mistaken for a request for a blessing, especially with children.

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(the super traditional Catholics frown on the "come up with your arms crossed" thing, but I've only seen/heard of this displeasure on the internet...in actual practice it is the norm to do the arms crossed get a blessing thing. I think they do it to get everyone out of the pew so that it is easier to process back in, lol!  Father always specifically requests that those not receiving come up, actually. And last Sunday I was particularly moved when the young priest that i went to said, "may you receive the Body of Christ in your soul" when he blessed me. I got goose bumps actually. )

 

Too funny!  I think online Catholics and IRL Catholics might be two different breeds altogether!

 

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Here is my question: Did you know that the leaders of the Catholic Church in SLC, UT and the leaders of my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, meet together and do service projects together? I think that is awesome. I don't have any specific questions to ask you about your faith or conversion. :) I don't have any specific examples to give you of what they've done, I remember reading in church news some of the charitable events/projects that have been held to benefit the needy and these events were put together through a concerted effort of both churches.

When the new stake center in my area was built (a small city in Texas) and we were having open house there, the Catholic church leader from the nearby church, came over before it started and told a friend who was there decorating and setting up that he was sorry he wasn't going to be able to attend as he was having a service at that time but he wished our congregation well and was very warm and friendly.

 

I didn't know that, but that's awesome! I know that my local parish cooperates with other faith groups for various charities. 

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One downside of crossed-arms-for-blessing-only is that Eastern Rite Catholics cross their arms when they approach to receive, and it can be confusing in an area like mine where there is a substantial Eastern Rite presence. And where there is an altar rail, it can be difficult to see if the person has arms folded, and the priest often has to ask if they're requesting communion.

 

Relatedly, in parishes where reception on the tongue is rare, approaching with folded hands is often mistaken for a request for a blessing, especially with children.

 

When I approach, if I think the person looks confused, I do a subtle head shake to say no, I'm not receiving right now :)

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Too funny!  I think online Catholics and IRL Catholics might be two different breeds altogether!

 

 

I agree! Or I've been lucky enough to avoid such controversy in real life just by accident. I guess the argument is that there is nothing in the rubrics of the liturgy saying you CAN get a blessing, so therefore you shouldn't. But in reality, it just is what it is, and life goes on. 

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Realized I had one other thing that made me seek out the Catholic Church. And this isn't something I'm exactly proud of, but I do wonder if others had a similar thought process. Once I'm "in" the Roman Catholic Church, I will always have the option to return to it, or to go to a Protestant Church if I change my mind some day. It gave the most options. That was definitely a thought process as I started RCIA. Later, I realized I don't even want to leave, and understand the "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" saying much better. Even when I wasn't practicing, and was attending the Epsicopal Church off and on with DH, I still considered myself Catholic.

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This may be too personal, so of course feel free to decline to answer--

 

Are you "Catholic all the way," or "Cafeteria Catholic?" I don't mean to be offensive--I've heard that second term applying to Catholics who don't follow to the letter--like maybe not on birth control. What do you think of people who convert but still don't believe or follow everything?

 

I looked at the Catholic Church, too--and might still Cross the Tiber at some later date but there are just a couple of things I can't get beyond at the moment.

 

I'm glad you found peace!

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This may be too personal, so of course feel free to decline to answer--

 

Are you "Catholic all the way," or "Cafeteria Catholic?" I don't mean to be offensive--I've heard that second term applying to Catholics who don't follow to the letter--like maybe not on birth control. What do you think of people who convert but still don't believe or follow everything?

 

I looked at the Catholic Church, too--and might still Cross the Tiber at some later date but there are just a couple of things I can't get beyond at the moment.

 

I'm glad you found peace!

 

My opinion is that "Cafeteria Catholics" (and I hate that term, but know you didn't mean any offense) are still Catholic. I disagree with some things the United States government does, but I don't renounce my citizenship over it. I don't agree with everything the Church does/teaches 100 percent, but I am not giving up my claim on Catholicism because of it. Does that make sense?  If, as I believe, this is "the" Church, the one it all started from, and I believe that the ideal is NOT to have a zillion denominations, than it stands to reason people will have some differences within the Church. They always have. 

 

At the end of the day, the Church believes in Primacy of Conscience. You must do what your IMFORMED conscience tells you is right. Not what is easier, or practical, or pragmatic, but what, after prayer, study, discussion, and research you find to be, in your heart of hearts, right. And in fact, the Church teaches that to force you to go against your conscience is immoral, EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG. 

 

Learning about that, made it possible for me to sometimes disagree and know that that is ok, in the sense that we are all struggling to find our way the best we can. 

 

In particular, there are areas where science is ahead of the Church, by leaps and bounds, and I think someday, when the Church catches up, some things may change that seem right now impossible to change. Mainly because in some areas the theological arguments are based on "the law of nature" and it stands to reason that as our understanding of nature changes, and those laws, the theologies around them may change. 

 

To be clear, if I'm not sure if I'm right or the Church is right, I follow the Church. Only in areas where I had studied the Church Fathers, the theological arguments, the history, and then prayed, discussed, thought, and listened to my heart would I go against the Church, and then only with fear and trembling. 

 

 

Edited to add: I've never understood the idea put forth by some, that if you aren't "Catholic enough" whatever that means, you should leave. Wouldn't it be better to get it a little wrong, and hopefully move towards the Church, than totally leave the Church? How would that be better?

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Is the whole service in Latin? Does not understanding Latin hinder one's ability to understand what is going on?

 

The services are, with few exceptions at a few parishes, in the vernacular. So in the United States most Masses are in English. At my Parish there is one in Spanish on Sundays, and the rest are English. At a parish near me they have one a week in Portuguese, my old one before we moved had one or two a week in Filipino. But to find a Latin Mass you have to be lucky. There is ONE parish in my diocese that offers a Latin Mass, and only one Mass a week, at 2pm on Sunday. 

 

Before Vatican II, when the Mass was in Latin, there were English/Latin Missals, or guides, to the service, so you could follow along. But saying your own private prayers at Mass, or the Rosary, silently, was encouraged, so they would ring bells to announce the important parts so you could know to stop what you were doing/praying/thinking and pay attention. The bells are still run in most parishes today, i believe, even though everything is in English. 

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This may be too personal, so of course feel free to decline to answer--

 

Are you "Catholic all the way," or "Cafeteria Catholic?" I don't mean to be offensive--I've heard that second term applying to Catholics who don't follow to the letter--like maybe not on birth control. What do you think of people who convert but still don't believe or follow everything?

 

I looked at the Catholic Church, too--and might still Cross the Tiber at some later date but there are just a couple of things I can't get beyond at the moment.

 

I'm glad you found peace!

I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church entirely. Of course I'm a sinner and give into temptation but I strive to constantly follow them properly.

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Is the whole service in Latin? Does not understanding Latin hinder one's ability to understand what is going on?

 

I have never been to a Latin Mass but when they are in Latin the are entirely in Latin. In the U.S. the majority are in English. I have been to one entirely in spanish before.

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Is the whole service in Latin? Does not understanding Latin hinder one's ability to understand what is going on?

 

I attend a parish where the liturgies are always in Latin. Every part is in Latin except for the sermon. At that time, the epistle and gospel are repeated in English. Many people who attend regularly have their own missal which has English on one side and Latin on the other. For people who don't have their own missal, missals are available to all who come, as are the "proper sheets". "Proper sheets" are the readings and prayers specific for the day. You have to go back and forth in the missal between the parts where the unchanging prayers of the mass are and the specific readings for that Sunday are. At the time of the sermon, after you've probably already read the readings in English, you'll hear them again, so you're actually getting them twice. Without the missal, you would have a harder time understanding unless you've been going for a while and really know the Mass well. For those who are just starting out learning to use a missal, it takes some getting used to.

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Is the cantor a prayer leader like in Jewish services or just a soloist?

I'm not trying to nitpick, but I'm a cantor and don't think of myself as a soloist. I lead the people in singing the hymns and responses. Usually the only time I sing a solo is for a wedding or funeral.

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Is the whole service in Latin? Does not understanding Latin hinder one's ability to understand what is going on?

Most Masses are in the common language of the people, but if you go to a Latin Mass you can get a missal that has Latin with the English translation. I went to a Latin Mass where these were provided.

 

ETA: oops, I see where Tiramisu already talked about this above.

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I'm not trying to nitpick, but I'm a cantor and don't think of myself as a soloist. I lead the people in singing the hymns and responses. Usually the only time I sing a solo is for a wedding or funeral.

 

 

Yeah, I agree. Not just a soloist, as part of the job is singing the psalms, which are not just "songs". 

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Please don't be afraid to visit! You can attend Mass anytime you want, at any Catholic church.

 

My mom and I were both raised Catholic but for many years we did not attend Mass or practice our faith in anyway. We both started out by going to Mass and sitting in one of the very last pews in an uncrowded church. That was over twenty years ago. Now my mom goes to Mass everyday and still sits in the very last pew if she can.  :)

 

One thing I liked about Catholic churches during that time of my life was that I could be anonymous. I needed that to focus on the Mass and pray and to hear God call me.

 

We actually have a very close community of families in our parish which I enjoy, but I still sometimes like to not have to deal with the social stuff and distractions.

 

In any case, you really can get the best of both worlds in many Catholic churches. There are RCIA groups, Bible studies, groups that pray the Rosary, etc., that help you connect with other people. But during Mass and when you're in the actual church, it's really all about God and being with Him. 

 

I'd also like to recommend visiting different Catholic churches. Most people go where they live but you don't have to. Each church has it's own atmosphere and culture and it helps when you can find one that allows you to worship in a way that's comfortable to you and encourages you to grow in your faith.

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I'm not trying to nitpick, but I'm a cantor and don't think of myself as a soloist. I lead the people in singing the hymns and responses. Usually the only time I sing a solo is for a wedding or funeral.

No one should denigrate the gifts of the musicians to the liturgy. The question however asked specifically if there was some equivalence to the cantor in Judaism, which is a clerical role. But in Catholicism, the cantor is not clergy, but is a layperson like the rest of us, even if a layperson doing something considerably more useful than the rest of us.
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No one should denigrate the gifts of the musicians to the liturgy. The question however asked specifically if there was some equivalence to the cantor in Judaism, which is a clerical role. But in Catholicism, the cantor is not clergy, but is a layperson like the rest of us, even if a layperson doing something considerably more useful than the rest of us.

 

Ah....I had no idea the Cantor was a clergy member!

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This may be too personal, so of course feel free to decline to answer--

 

Are you "Catholic all the way," or "Cafeteria Catholic?" I don't mean to be offensive--I've heard that second term applying to Catholics who don't follow to the letter--like maybe not on birth control. What do you think of people who convert but still don't believe or follow everything?

 

I looked at the Catholic Church, too--and might still Cross the Tiber at some later date but there are just a couple of things I can't get beyond at the moment.

 

I'm glad you found peace!

I don't know a single person IRL who is what you would describe as "Catholic all the way," but I also don't know a single person who calls themselves a "cafeteria Catholic." The only people I have heard refer to others as "cafeteria Catholics" are the holier-than-thou, super competitive I'm-a-better-Catholic-than-you'll-ever-be types that I've met on the Internet.

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Ooo...I was so hoping someone would start this thread. Funny enough, I am Catholic and come from a very Catholic family with priests, sisters and all. The ironic thing is, now that I'm teaching my own young kids about the faith...I'm wavering! I'm just not sure WHY I believe what I believe. Honestly, if someone asked me to defend my faith I'm just not sure I could. I'm just curios if you could tell me why you believe what you believe. I hope it doesn't cause an argument, and ask people to respect and not pick apart your explanation. I obviously need a little help solidifying my own Catholicism. I'm looking forward to enriching my own beliefs within this thread.

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Ooo...I was so hoping someone would start this thread. Funny enough, I am Catholic and come from a very Catholic family with priests, sisters and all. The ironic thing is, now that I'm teaching my own young kids about the faith...I'm wavering! I'm just not sure WHY I believe what I believe. Honestly, if someone asked me to defend my faith I'm just not sure I could. I'm just curios if you could tell me why you believe what you believe. I hope it doesn't cause an argument, and ask people to respect and not pick apart your explanation. I obviously need a little help solidifying my own Catholicism. I'm looking forward to enriching my own beliefs within this thread.

 

 

I'll let someone else answer you as far as resources, but I know there are great ones out there. Maybe Peter Kreeft..I hear his name a lot. For me, it came down to the idea that the earliest writings we have, close to the time of Christ, show a Church much like what we have now in the Catholic Church. They had the same beliefs about the Eucharist, etc. So it seemed to be the best we can do, as far as knowing the truth. There was also the idea that "millions of people can't be wrong". More to the point, I couldn't believe that God would let us be THAT wrong, for so many centuries. 

 

Maybe ask your priest, or faith formation person, for some resources?

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I don't know a single person IRL who is what you would describe as "Catholic all the way," but I also don't know a single person who calls themselves a "cafeteria Catholic." The only people I have heard refer to others as "cafeteria Catholics" are the holier-than-thou, super competitive I'm-a-better-Catholic-than-you'll-ever-be types that I've met on the Internet.

 

 

My mother used to call herself a cafeteria Catholic.  This usually happened when she was feeling guilty about having her tubes tied after having me because a doctor convinced her it was for health reasons.  It was purely out of guilt and sadness that she would no longer have anymore children.  

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Ooo...I was so hoping someone would start this thread. Funny enough, I am Catholic and come from a very Catholic family with priests, sisters and all. The ironic thing is, now that I'm teaching my own young kids about the faith...I'm wavering! I'm just not sure WHY I believe what I believe. Honestly, if someone asked me to defend my faith I'm just not sure I could. I'm just curios if you could tell me why you believe what you believe. I hope it doesn't cause an argument, and ask people to respect and not pick apart your explanation. I obviously need a little help solidifying my own Catholicism. I'm looking forward to enriching my own beliefs within this thread.

 

I'm a cradle Catholic and fairly devout, but I got a lot out of Jennifer Fulwiler's new book about her conversion from atheism to Catholicism. I also like what has been written on the Our Mother's Daughters blog (written by a several-decades-ago convert and several of her adult daughters).

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I'm a cradle Catholic and fairly devout, but I got a lot out of Jennifer Fulwiler's new book about her conversion from atheism to Catholicism. I also like what has been written on the Our Mother's Daughters blog (written by a several-decades-ago convert and several of her adult daughters).

I'm reading her book now. I've also read Our Mother's Daughters after someone here mentioned it.

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Ooo...I was so hoping someone would start this thread. Funny enough, I am Catholic and come from a very Catholic family with priests, sisters and all. The ironic thing is, now that I'm teaching my own young kids about the faith...I'm wavering! I'm just not sure WHY I believe what I believe. Honestly, if someone asked me to defend my faith I'm just not sure I could. I'm just curios if you could tell me why you believe what you believe. I hope it doesn't cause an argument, and ask people to respect and not pick apart your explanation. I obviously need a little help solidifying my own Catholicism. I'm looking forward to enriching my own beliefs within this thread.

Amy sue, have you read much church history? The Early Church Fathers? There is a three book set by Jurgens but also much online to read. A good basic book that is older but has been reprinted is called The Faith Explained. I also love reading the lives of the saints.

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I don't know a single person IRL who is what you would describe as "Catholic all the way," but I also don't know a single person who calls themselves a "cafeteria Catholic." The only people I have heard refer to others as "cafeteria Catholics" are the holier-than-thou, super competitive I'm-a-better-Catholic-than-you'll-ever-be types that I've met on the Internet.

For me it's not about competing. Life isn't a competition; it's a cooperation. How would I know the state of another person's soul anyway? My faith is about loving God and my neighbor, with His help, though of course I stumble. But if I believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church, then out of love I will want to embrace her teachings and wisdom.

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What are Catholics taught will happen to non-Catholics when they die? My mom is a practicing Catholic and I know that she believes Catholicism is just one way to know God and get to heaven and that there are many other paths, but I wasn't sure if this was official church doctrine.

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My opinion is that "Cafeteria Catholics" (and I hate that term, but know you didn't mean any offense) are still Catholic. I disagree with some things the United States government does, but I don't renounce my citizenship over it. I don't agree with everything the Church does/teaches 100 percent, but I am not giving up my claim on Catholicism because of it. Does that make sense?  If, as I believe, this is "the" Church, the one it all started from, and I believe that the ideal is NOT to have a zillion denominations, than it stands to reason people will have some differences within the Church. They always have. 

 

At the end of the day, the Church believes in Primacy of Conscience. You must do what your IMFORMED conscience tells you is right. Not what is easier, or practical, or pragmatic, but what, after prayer, study, discussion, and research you find to be, in your heart of hearts, right. And in fact, the Church teaches that to force you to go against your conscience is immoral, EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG. 

 

Learning about that, made it possible for me to sometimes disagree and know that that is ok, in the sense that we are all struggling to find our way the best we can. 

 

In particular, there are areas where science is ahead of the Church, by leaps and bounds, and I think someday, when the Church catches up, some things may change that seem right now impossible to change. Mainly because in some areas the theological arguments are based on "the law of nature" and it stands to reason that as our understanding of nature changes, and those laws, the theologies around them may change. 

 

To be clear, if I'm not sure if I'm right or the Church is right, I follow the Church. Only in areas where I had studied the Church Fathers, the theological arguments, the history, and then prayed, discussed, thought, and listened to my heart would I go against the Church, and then only with fear and trembling. 

 

 

Edited to add: I've never understood the idea put forth by some, that if you aren't "Catholic enough" whatever that means, you should leave. Wouldn't it be better to get it a little wrong, and hopefully move towards the Church, than totally leave the Church? How would that be better?

 

I appreciate the moderation of this answer, but I do think it's missing some key aspects.

 

While dissent is part of a faithful life, I don't think one's dissenting opinion should be static or set in stone. It needs to be balanced with a hefty dose of prayer - that your heart can be moved to change, and that the Church can continue to be receptive to God's plan for us. It needs to be balanced with a continual growth in conscience development. 

 

Dissenting the aspects of the Church that are out-of-step with modernity kind of misses the point of the Church. It's eternal. It's not for this time, it's for all time. 

 

(Now, how do I balance these views, which I do truly believe, with my own struggles of faith? Lots and lots and lots of prayer. And then more prayer. Also, I personally feel squeamish when I see the Church in the business of civil law-making.)

 

I am curious where you think "science is ahead of the Church," though. 

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What are Catholics taught will happen to non-Catholics when they die? My mom is a practicing Catholic and I know that she believes Catholicism is just one way to know God and get to heaven and that there are many other paths, but I wasn't sure if this was official church doctrine.

 

There are a few possibilities.

 

We believe that if you do not know God at all, you can't be responsible for not accepting him as your savior. It has been written that Heaven is not closed to people who are not Catholic, not Christian, and people who go out of their way to reject God. The Church says that leading a good, moral life is a good way to hedge your bets on getting to Heaven though. 

 

That is to say: Leading a good, Catholic life is a great way to grow closer to God. We know from Jesus's teachings and the 2000 years of direct apostalic succession (pope) that some choices are better than others, some lifestyles tend to lead you closer to God, etc. An Atheist, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu can all lead good lives that bring them closer to God's love whether they ever come into communion with the church. Its just that we believe Catholicism provides a framework for not veering too far off track.

 

We believe in purgatory. Most souls go to purgatory for some period of time after death. We don't know how long. In purgatory souls can be "cleansed" by prayers from the living and when the soul is complete and healed from life's sins, it can ascend to Heaven to be with God again. Young children and babies are supposed to ascend faster than others, being generally purer of heart.

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What are Catholics taught will happen to non-Catholics when they die? My mom is a practicing Catholic and I know that she believes Catholicism is just one way to know God and get to heaven and that there are many other paths, but I wasn't sure if this was official church doctrine.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding baptism

 

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

 

I don't have time to explain it thoroughly but in short... The Church believe baptism is necessary for salvation.  However, their are instances where the Church believes one can be saved even without a formal baptism.  If they intended to be baptized or would have wanted it had they known it was required for salvation.  Also, if they die for their faith.  1260, also states that since Christ died for all there are possibly ways to salvation that God did not reveal to us and only He knows. 

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And to piggyback on the Baptism thought, it's the general Trinitarian Baptism ("I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"). " I kind of cringe when I hear someone say they were "Baptized Catholic

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What are Catholics taught will happen to non-Catholics when they die? My mom is a practicing Catholic and I know that she believes Catholicism is just one way to know God and get to heaven and that there are many other paths, but I wasn't sure if this was official church doctrine.

 

hiffkj quotes from the Catechism provide a great explanation. I would also add that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus Christ. So that even if someone who is not in the Church or has not been provided the opportunity to learn about Jesus, their salvation still can only be possible because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. They must also help work out their salvation through the life they live on earth.

 

I have heard it said that we will be judged by how we've responded to the graces we've received but I haven't looked that up to substantiate the validity of that, but it seems to make sense to me. In other words, if all anyone has received is natural law and never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and receive baptism, they must have lived their lives well according to the natural law in order for there to be any hope for salvation.

 

There is a picture in the old Saint Joseph's Baltimore Catechism that shows it this way: The Church is portrayed as an ark. Catholics are in the ark in the fullness of faith. However, there are people hanging on to the Ark on ropes on the outside who will also be saved. That salvation comes through the Church even for people who are not Catholic.

 

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding baptism

 

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

 

I don't have time to explain it thoroughly but in short... The Church believe baptism is necessary for salvation.  However, their are instances where the Church believes one can be saved even without a formal baptism.  If they intended to be baptized or would have wanted it had they known it was required for salvation.  Also, if they die for their faith.  1260, also states that since Christ died for all there are possibly ways to salvation that God did not reveal to us and only He knows. 

 

Thank you, hjffkj.

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And to piggyback on the Baptism thought, it's the general Trinitarian Baptism ("I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"). " I kind of cringe when I hear someone say they were "Baptized Catholic

 

I've heard someone say that anyone who has been baptized according according to the correct rubrics is Catholic. They just might not know it. 

 

When non-Catholic Christians convert to Catholicism, if they've been baptized properly, they are not baptized again because there is only one baptism. Sometimes they will do a conditional baptism in case there's any question about how it was done.

 

ETA: I've also heard of conditional confirmations for people who may have been confirmed outside of a bishop's authority.

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What are Catholics taught will happen to non-Catholics when they die? My mom is a practicing Catholic and I know that she believes Catholicism is just one way to know God and get to heaven and that there are many other paths, but I wasn't sure if this was official church doctrine.

 

Officially, we know that God leads people to heaven through the Catholic Church, but we also know that God is big and mysterious and merciful, so it only makes sense that he leads them to heaven through other paths as well. We just know the details of the one way, and as Catholics are required to stick to it, but acknowledge that God reveals himself to various people in various ways...people that have never heard of Jesus may none the less be more open to the workings of God than the most devout Priest. It's all up to God, and if people are working towards him the best they know how, we assume God will bring them home to Heaven.

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I appreciate the moderation of this answer, but I do think it's missing some key aspects.

 

While dissent is part of a faithful life, I don't think one's dissenting opinion should be static or set in stone. It needs to be balanced with a hefty dose of prayer - that your heart can be moved to change, and that the Church can continue to be receptive to God's plan for us. It needs to be balanced with a continual growth in conscience development. 

 

Dissenting the aspects of the Church that are out-of-step with modernity kind of misses the point of the Church. It's eternal. It's not for this time, it's for all time. 

 

(Now, how do I balance these views, which I do truly believe, with my own struggles of faith? Lots and lots and lots of prayer. And then more prayer. Also, I personally feel squeamish when I see the Church in the business of civil law-making.)

 

I am curious where you think "science is ahead of the Church," though. 

 

I think (and I have only half a cup of coffee in me, so haven't re read to check) that I said that it had to be based on, among other things, prayer and openness to the Holy Spirit. If I didn't, I apologize. It certainly is something that would grow as one learned/studied/prayed more. No argumen there. 

 

Faith and morals are eternal, the expression of various aspects of the Church are not, always. Things do change, hugely. Just not the basics of the faith. And the Church itself is of course, eternal. 

 

As for where I think science is ahead of the Church, I REALLY don't want to start a debate. But we have vaccines, for instance that use human tissue and need more guidance on that one way or the other, true theological study that I've not seen. Maybe it is there. Also, and I hesitate to bring it up as I personal have zero homosexual tendencies and therefore feel NO authority to discuss the issue, but one of the main foundations of the Church's teaching on homosexuality is the idea that it violates natural law. Much more intelligent and learned theologians than me have speculated (just speculated mind you...I'm not asking for a rebellion here), that if our understanding of the natural law changed at some point in the future, than our teachings on homosexuality or at least the theology around it, would change. Even if it wasn't "allowed" the reasons it wasnt' allowed might be different, with a new more nuanced theology. 

 

Again, I do NOT want to start a debate, and have no real thoughts on the issue I mentioned, other than, as a former Religion major and theology geek being fascinated by the arguments being put forth on both sides. Again, these are arguments from within the Church, no one advocating going against Church teaching, just people thinking out loud as they wrestle with theology. And I find that so interesting. 

 

If anyone wants to debate homosexuality/church teachings please do it in another thread, or better yet, just refrain. Please. 

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May I ask for clarity on one thing?

 

AFA Catholic teaching saying those who have not heard of Jesus Christ can be morally upright and obtain grace and "go to heaven"--

 

Okay, so what about people who HAVE heard of Jesus, have been presented with the gospel,  and then choose something else (they did know, and said, "No")? Is their rejection of Jesus condemnatory, according to the Catholic Church?

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May I ask for clarity on one thing?

 

AFA Catholic teaching saying those who have not heard of Jesus Christ can be morally upright and obtain grace and "go to heaven"--

 

Okay, so what about people who HAVE heard of Jesus, have been presented with the gospel,  and then choose something else (they did know, and said, "No")? Is their rejection of Jesus condemnatory, according to the Catholic Church?

 

There isn't a lot of explicit teaching, but the undersanding I've always gotten is that there must be a reason they are "rejecting" Jesus. I mean to say...yes, if they believe that Jesus is God, and believe that the only way to Heaven is through him, and THEN reject him, that would probably be a good way to be condemned to Hell. But not believing in Jesus is different....we think you would believe, if you could, and since you don't, there is probably a reason, and God will understand your circumstances. 

 

Again, I don't speak for The Church, but that has been the understanding I've been given.

 

 

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No one should denigrate the gifts of the musicians to the liturgy. The question however asked specifically if there was some equivalence to the cantor in Judaism, which is a clerical role. But in Catholicism, the cantor is not clergy, but is a layperson like the rest of us, even if a layperson doing something considerably more useful than the rest of us.

 

Thank you for this answer, that's exactly what I was getting at. And I do apologize for the 'just a soloist' wording, I really didn't mean it to be dismissive. I should have said "still a layperson".

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