What next for spelling with DS7?

[kirstenhill]

I had one of those "slap self on forehead" moments yesterday, as DS7 (1st grader) as he claimed to have no clue when to use c, k, or ck, and wanted to spell pink as "pingk."   (This was during a focused time working on spelling and not while writing sentences). 

 

While I am not worried at all about his spelling in one sense (it makes WAY more sense that DD's spelling did at the same age), on the other hand, it seems frustrating that he has forgotten these rules/concepts when we covered them last year using the Logic of English Foundations beta test lessons, and then covered them again this year (earlier in the year) using LoE Essentials.  He has not retained as much as I had hoped from the last two years of LoE work.

 

That being said, we did not fully implement Essentials this year.  DS7 had the patience for 5-10 words per day, so it took us 2-3 days to get through each list, and was not very receptive to dictation sentences or even a real "spelling test" on the words for the week.  We made it through lesson 26 before taking a bit of a break to focus on learning to write in cursive (at his request).

 

In general, his writing abilities have increased, so I have no doubt he could handle 15 or more words dictated in a day starting now or in the fall.  But when I mentioned that maybe we would just start back at the beginning of Essentials again next Fall to really master those rules and phonograms (he does pretty well with most of the phonograms, but has often known the sounds and not when to use them).   And that idea of starting over was NOT met with a happy reaction from DS.

 

So that leaves me not quite sure what to do.  He clearly hasn't retained everything taught in Essentials, but I don't want to make him feel defeated that he has to "start over" in spelling, and I don't he is ready to just do the alternate/advanced lists either -- some of those words are pretty hard for a 2nd grader.  

 

Ideas?

[SilverMoon]

1) It's quite normal for a 7yo to not have internalized all those rules. It takes lots and lots of practice. Expect it to start sticking deeper around 4th grade, and lather, rinse, repeat until he doesn't need it anymore.

 

2) I am not familiar with LOE. What about giving Spalding a chance so he doesn't have to redo a book? After you get through the introductory phase the phonogram cards can be used as review without having to back up.

[Tracy]

I remember reading in TWTM that you shouldn't really expect the spelling to be applied in writing until the 4th grade.  LOE and similar programs are very good programs, but the material is not the sort of stuff that you learn once and automatically retain.  I have been doing SWR with dd9 for 4 years now.  Every December, her spelling level spikes at a whole year or two higher than she tested in August.  And every August, she tests at least 6 months below where she tested in July.  Sure, some kids are natural spellers and need only a brief exposure.  But for my kid, she needs those rules to be a part of her everyday life in order to remember and apply them.  

[cintinative]

I know you are not alone with the "pingk" problem. Both my boys did that--and I actually had quite a time trying to "pronounce for spelling" as All about Spelling tells you to do. I went to co-op and asked my friends how to pronounce it so it didn't sound like there was a "g" in there--we couldn't figure it out!  My 6 year old (7 in June) still needs to be regularly reminded of the "k" and "ck" rules. I am no expert but I would think this is pretty normal.  =)  There is a thread on here somewhere in which another mom describes trying to convince her son there was no "g" in pink and he did not believe her for a very long time. =)

[boscopup]

I know you are not alone with the "pingk" problem. Both my boys did that--and I actually had quite a time trying to "pronounce for spelling" as All about Spelling tells you to do. I went to co-op and asked my friends how to pronounce it so it didn't sound like there was a "g" in there--we couldn't figure it out!  My 6 year old (7 in June) still needs to be regularly reminded of the "k" and "ck" rules. I am no expert but I would think this is pretty normal.  =)  There is a thread on here somewhere in which another mom describes trying to convince her son there was no "g" in pink and he did not believe her for a very long time. =)

 

I'd just tell my child that "ngk" is not a phonogram, so they'll never see an English word spelled that way.

 

Agreeing with those that say spelling merges around age 9ish for many kids. Could you use LOE again without the workbook, so he doesn't necessarily realize he's doing the same thing again? Or use the Ayres list from Spalding as was suggested earlier. You could mark the words like you do in LOE and use the LOE phonograms (sorry, Ellie! :D).

[kirstenhill]

I agree that is is normal too...just a bit frustrating to figure out what to do next without just starting LoE over again. My DD took such a different progression in her spelling and it has been pretty much steady improvement since we started LoE two years ago, so I just wasn't sure what to expect in some ways with DS. She does need review, but it has been more often quick reminders rather than blank stares. ;-)

 

I'm not really expecting him to apply it in writing - after our break from LoE lessons, I was just asking him some random "quiz" sort of words we have done in the past as a warm up/review... so he was just thinking about spelling those words at that moment. But in not "thinking" much about the rules/phonograms in the past month I see he started to forget.

 

I definitely want to stick with something O-G based and don't want to spend tons of money...are WRTR or SWR better set up for this type of forgetting/needing review? I own HTTS and I think I understand it much better than when I first bought it (pre-LoE), but I still have trouble envisioning how the big lists that it says are for grades "3-12" or whatever for particular rules/phonograms should be broken up week by week or year by year.

[kirstenhill]

I'd just tell my child that "ngk" is not a phonogram, so they'll never see an English word spelled that way.

 

Agreeing with those that say spelling merges around age 9ish for many kids. Could you use LOE again without the workbook, so he doesn't necessarily realize he's doing the same thing again? Or use the Ayres list from Spalding as was suggested earlier. You could mark the words like you do in LOE and use the LOE phonograms (sorry, Ellie! :D).

I was considering that...using either the WRTR list or another, and just keep it up the way we have learned in LoE. I think if we did LoE again he would catch it right away because of the big teachers' manual...it's a dead giveaway. ;-)

[Tracy]

In the SWR Yahoo Group, they often mention how some children need a very broad exposure before they start to see the patterns.  They may recite "CK is used only after a single vowel that says its first sound," but they don't really internalize it until they have analyzed many words over a long period of time.  This is why Spalding and SWR recommend dictation of large numbers of words per week, because a larger pool of words will encourage the student to see and internalize those patterns.  

[MerryAtHope]

For this particular issue, I did this:

 

Make the word pin with letter tiles (or write it, if you don't have tiles). Then add K and have them try to read the word. Have them notice how we don't say the full /n/ sound--it kind of melts with the K and sounds like /ng/ + /k/. Then I had them TRY to say a word like "pink" with a full /n/ sound--pin-k. We laughed and had fun with this! Then I let them know that whenever they hear /nk/, it's the NK phonogram--it's never the NG + K phonograms. Thinking it through a bit more in this way, coupled with trying to say the variations, helped them remember to use NK for /nk/. 

 

Does LOE have a way for you to easily review phonograms, words, and rules like this? I used AAS, which is O-G based, and that lets you customize the review easily so that you can spend as much or as little time on things like this as your child needs. 

 

Merry :-)

[kirstenhill]

We do review phonograms -- He is pretty good at both looking at the flash card and saying the sounds or answering when I ask, "What phonogram says Ch/k/sh"?  And questions like that...it just doesn't always translate into knowing when to use what. 

 

Explicit rule review comes up as words are in the weekly list that review previous rules (so, some may be reviewed more often than others), but words are not often reviewed except for the "review week", and that is set up in Essentials to just review the previous 4 lessons (not older words).  This is kind of a weakness I guess, especially with younger kids who are less likely to internalize all these words just doing them once or twice in spelling dictation.

 

The word "pink" is taught directly...way back in lesson 1 or 2.  He "got" it then and knew there was no g in it.  But that was in September...and not having used the word I guess very often since then...It fell out of memory now in late April.  

 

The more I think about it, I wonder if in doing the weekly lists, I thought he was remembering "why" we were using certain phonograms and so we didn't always discuss it...but maybe he wasn't really thinking about why and just writing/marking the phonograms  as I was dictating...if that makes any sense.