Safeties and Reaches

[Ginevra]

Hello, all. I'm deep in the jungle of college selections for my current junior DD. Wow, what a maze! Today we went to see a state school that, in my mind, was probably going to be DD's safety. As a public in-state uni, it's easily affordable, even with no merit aid. Academically, it's also most likely an easy-in. It is commutable, which further shaves costs. Thing is, we didn't feel for it really at all. I'm sure it could get the job done if DD attended there, but - meh. We didn't have That Feeling.

 

On the way home, DD asked if community college could be a safety. Truly, if it were necessary to pay as little as possible, I would much prefer our CC to this commutable uni. So I think yes - cc and then transfer could be our safety. Save the $50 application fee if we like it so little that it's not really even a contender. Is this a sensible strategy?

 

On the flip side, there's the Reach, both because they are looking for a stellar candidate and because I don't have the foggiest notion how we could even consider the price tag. I'm speaking of William & Mary. Is there any point applying to a college when you know aid must be miraculous in order to make it? I sometimes wonder if that is a bit like test driving a Ferrari. Why entertain any hopes if probability is rather slim? Or should I just say, what the heck, give it a go. The worst they can do is say What Were You Thinking.

 

Wisdom appreciated.

[JennW in SoCal]

It doesn't need to be an either/or proposition - either the meh safety or the miraculous reach.  There are many, many other schools out there that could be a perfect fit financially and academically, both private and public.  Even within your state I'll bet there are other options.  Read the fine print on the college web sites to see what kind of merit aid and financial aid they offer. (I can't remember the web site that has all those useful statistics about aid for all colleges in the US).  

 

You should check with your community college to find out which schools they have transfer agreements with.  It could be that they have a transfer agreement with William and Mary or some other "reach school" or another state school.  Consider whether the community college program would suit your dd, if students are able to get the required general ed courses needed for transfer or if students wind up taking 3 years or more because not enough sections are offered.  Ask if she can sit in on some classes.  

 

We had planned to go the cc route with both my kids, but severe budge cuts reduced class offerings, meaning the first week of classes was a soul-sucking game of crashing the classes you wanted.  My kids both went out of state and wound up with affordable schools that suited them.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Jenn that there are many "in between" options.    OOS publics that do not advertise large numbers of scholarship $$ for ALL students (both in-state and OOS students) statistically the odds of winning one are low unless the student is incredilby  exemplary not only academically but in community involvement as well.

 

But there are lots of universities that do offer lots of merit scholarships based on stats.   If your student is above their avg stats, the more likely they are to receive $$ from these schools.

[Jenny in Florida]

. Is there any point applying to a college when you know aid must be miraculous in order to make it? I sometimes wonder if that is a bit like test driving a Ferrari. Why entertain any hopes if probability is rather slim? Or should I just say, what the heck, give it a go. The worst they can do is say What Were You Thinking.

 

 

As JennW mentioned, it really doesn't have to be such a stark decision. There are so many colleges that I'm certain your daughter can find several good options that are affordable and would be good fits for her, academically.

 

With that said, I can tell you that my son's experience suggests that schools with higher price tags tend to offer proportionally more aid.

 

I was very up-front with my son when he choose there to apply. I explained that there were a few schools on his list that were absolutely outside of our budget unless scholarships and aid rained on him from the sky. I told him it was worth it to apply to any school in which he was really, genuinely interested, as long as he understood that, even if he got in, financial considerations could mean he couldn't go.

 

So, I lean toward the "what the heck, give it a go" option, as long as your daughter understands the financial limitations.

 

[wapiti]

You probably already looked at this, but FWIW, there are discussions at College Confidential about schools that are "similar" to W&M.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1431917-suggestions-for-schools-similar-to-william-and-mary.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1340878-any-schools-really-similar-to-william-and-mary.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1064016-similar-school-to-william-and-mary.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/984513-schools-similar-to-william-and-mary.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1251-schools-similar-to-william-and-mary.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/420689-similar-william-mary.html

 

[Nan in Mass]

About the reach - it might be sensible to look at what sort of scholarships they offer.  Do they offer many small scholarships and just one or two big ones?  Or do they offer a good number of big ones and not many small ones?  What are the criteria for the big scholarships?  Statistically, how much of a reach is this school?  If you can figure this out, you can make a guess about whether it is worth applying.  For example, if you will be able to afford the school only with a full ride scholarship (tution + fees + room and board) and the school only offers two of them, and your daughter statistically isn't above the 25%-75% gpa and SAT score range on top of having something else particularly interesting about her, then I'd say that it might be wiser to tell your daughter that you can't afford the school.  If, on the other hand, the school hands out a number of scholarships that are about 1/3 the total price, you could manage the other two thirds, and your daughter is statistically above the 75% point OR her statistics land about the 50% mark and she has something interesting about her, then I'd say it was worth applying.  Just make sure your daughter understands that it is a long shot.  There is, of course, a whole slew of possibilities between those two, but hopefully those two are enough for you to get the idea.  Here is a good site for finding the statistics you need: http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/   You can look at the college sites themselves.  They have pdf's of statistics for each year on acceptance and admissions and aid and college finances.  You can also try to find similar-but-easier-to-get-into colleges.  For example, many students here dream of going to MIT but know they won't get in, so they apply to RPI, that being a techie-type school with a much higher acceptance rate.  Sometimes you needn't reinvent the wheel GRIN.  A call to a local high school's guidance department or conversations with other parents might help you to figure out this sort of list.

 

HTH

Nan

[Hoggirl]

Are you in VA?

 

My ds has a classmate who is going to attend W&M next year (we are not in VA). He only got something like $4,000 per year in merit $. He has a 4.0 and a 34 on the ACT. I don't think they give much money to OOS-ers. I don't know about in-state. Hopefully, some Virginians will chime in. What is it that your dd likes so much about W&M?

 

I have seen MANY hopes dashed this year with regard to finances. Way too much unrealistic, "Let's see what happens," and then not enough does. I think pursuing it depends on how well your daughter can *truly* grasp that it is a, "No," without (as you put it) aid that must be miraculous.

[rwjx2khsmj]

Keep looking. You just never know when a school is going to give THAT feeling. When dd was wait listed for her top choice we took one more trip to visit a safety pick that none of us expected to make the final list. She only applied because they waived the fee and essay. The safety school had THAT feeling and everything she liked about the wait list school plus a much smaller price tag. You have time and you just never know.

[Kathy in Richmond]

William and Mary doesn't give much money to in-state kids, either. They have very limited merit aid of three types:

 

1. The Monroe Scholar designation is mostly an honor, not a $$ award, apart from a small stipend to support summer research.

 

2. The W&M Scholar award goes to diversity/ first gen candidates.

 

3. The 1693 Scholar program is much better financially (full ride in state & reduction to instate rates for non VA residents), but is extremely difficult to win. At most half a dozen per year are awarded according to the program's website.

 

OP, are you in-state? If so, then the cc route followed by transfer to a good state school would make a lot of sense.  W&M offers guaranteed admissions to CC graduates who meet specified requirements.

 

Dd was accepted to W&M a few years ago as an in-state student, but we were expected to pay full fare there, even though she was named a Monroe Scholar. It was actually cheaper to send my VA kid to Stanford. :eek:

[Teachin'Mine]

UVa might be one to consider as they meet 100% of demonstrated need.  I know it's different from William and Mary, but it might be a nice option. 

[creekland]

I would definitely never apply to a school my student didn't want to attend.  It's a waste of time and money.  CC can definitely be a safety as long as it meets educational needs.

 

Have you run your EFC?  If your EFC is affordable, then you'll want to take a close look for schools that come close to meeting that need.  If it's not affordable, then you need to look for schools likely to provide enough in merit aid.  For those of us where finances are an issue, it's just a fact that not all schools are on the table as realistic choices (since I'm opposed to super high debt).

 

Applying to other colleges can still happen, but being able to afford them does fall into the "miracles sometimes happen" category and shouldn't be counted on.

 

As others have suggested, I'd be looking around at other schools.  In our case, we never really knew which schools would have THAT feeling until we visited.  Some that looked great on paper fell down (or off) our list.  Some that were "well, it's on the way and it has what you want" ended up being high on the list.

[Gwen in VA]

Definitely apply to dream schools. Miracles DO happen! (I'm about to send my fourth kid to college completely on merit aid -- we I haven't paid a dime in tuition yet. Two went to a top-20 LAC, one went to an engineering school ranked #1 in the country for his major, and one is going to her dream school though it is not super-highly ranked. Yup, miracles do happen!)

 

Make sure that your student understands that the miracle has to happen in order for him to attend that particular college. The acceptance letter is only half the battle; the other half is an acceptable financial package. (My older son's top school was U. Chicago, and he did get accepted, but the money was not there. Saying no to that school was hard.)

 

And as Kathy in Richmond said, the most expensive school may turn out to cost you the least in out-of-pocket expenses. For all of of my three kids who applied to in-state schools, the in-state public college ended up as the most expensive or the second-most expensive option! (Private colleges tend to have more money to toss around)

 

 

[Guest]

All, thanks so much for the responses! We are not in-state VA; we live in MD. I wish we were in VA! It seems like schools we love are guaranteed to be well-priced for VA residents. This weekend, we're heading to St. Mary's College of MD. I do think that has strong potential of meeting our wish list, at an affordable in-state rate. The other major contender at the moment is James Madison university. We loved it a lot!

 

I do not know our EFC. It seems excruciatingly difficult to pin-point from net price calcs, because our financial picture is very complex and there are a few bits of data we don't have yet (SAT scores, ex.). Dh is partners in two companies, we have rental properties, some of which we own outright and others that hold mortgages, we have a personal home equity line of credit, but the debt on that is for a rental, etc. so many different complex facets that I don't know how to claim them. I have no idea how to factor this info into any NPC that i've attempted so far.

[Guest]

Adding this thought: although I don't know our EFC, it's safe to assume it will be high. We are asset-rich and on paper, it looks like we can afford plenty. In reality, though, our actual paychecks are not huge and are uncertain (because of being business owners). I am also very averse to debt and want to avoid it as much as possible.

[bettyandbob]

My dd is a sophomore. We are making a point of visiting almost every in state school. We've done quite a few and we are doing that before we look at private or out of state. We are in Virginia and I think we have a decent selection, but I think Maryland has a good selection of schools ranging for urban, rural, coast, mountain locations and ranging from small to very large. I think it's good to see them all because you might uncover something you completely didn't consider. 

 

I went to William and Mary. They do not offer much aid. The state has pulled back on supporting it's public universities so I don't see the aid situation improving. It's a beautiful campus. The atmosphere is incredibly high stress. It was that way over 30 years ago and talking to kids I know there now that has not changed a lot. 

 

What did you like about JMU.  When you are considering out of state tuition rates what does JMU offer with regards to research, internships and future employment. 

[8filltheheart]

Based on what you posted, I would assume high EFC. What does your dd want to major in? What is the appeal of JMU?

 

Honestly, you will probably find private schools MUCH cheaper than VA publics OOS. VA is very stingy with aid money. There are private schools in VA that do offer merit $$. Roanoke, Lynchburg, Ferrum, etc all offer merit money.

 

There are OOS publics that are also generous with merit money (VA just doesn't happen to be one of them.).

 

These threads on CC might be a good place to start looking

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1461983-competitive-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html

 

Also check into individual departmental scholarships, honors programs and honors scholarships, and the ability to stack scholarships ( some schools reduce some scholarships when others are awarded. Others allow complete stacking. )

 

Hth

[Guest]

My dd is a sophomore. We are making a point of visiting almost every in state school. We've done quite a few and we are doing that before we look at private or out of state. We are in Virginia and I think we have a decent selection, but I think Maryland has a good selection of schools ranging for urban, rural, coast, mountain locations and ranging from small to very large. I think it's good to see them all because you might uncover something you completely didn't consider. 

 

I went to William and Mary. They do not offer much aid. The state has pulled back on supporting it's public universities so I don't see the aid situation improving. It's a beautiful campus. The atmosphere is incredibly high stress. It was that way over 30 years ago and talking to kids I know there now that has not changed a lot. 

 

What did you like about JMU.  When you are considering out of state tuition rates what does JMU offer with regards to research, internships and future employment.

 

I feel like MD has little choice that offers what we want! Might be Grass-is-Greener syndrome. Here's how I see our public offerings in MD (no offense meant to anyone who likes or loves any of these schools):

U of MD college park -too gargantuan; hate the urban enviro.

UMBC - too urban; student population too "different" from DD.

Frostberg State - No! Bad reputation. Low grad rate. Known party school.

Salisbury state - too much like a resort. Too unrecognized.

U of Baltimore - no. Big city.

St. Mary's - this is the only in-state contender for which I have high hopes.

Towson - urban; dd feels this is too easy, not known for challenge or rigor.

 

After that, there are acouple of privates we like, but then we're back to "only if the aid package is awesome" territory.

 

What we loved at JMU:

Academically moderately selective; population is a good "fit" for DD; campus is beautiful beyond belief; school has history; location is *PERFECT*; drive is very pleasant from our home; big enough to offer many options and perks, but does not feel gargantuan; well-developed study abroad options, which DD definitely wants; honors program possibility; grad rate is very high.

 

One thing DD wants that is perhaps more unusual is little or no campus residency requirement. Freshmen requirement is acceptable, but she adamantly does not want to live in a dorm for 4 years. It also seems difficult to get a straight answer about residency without visiting campus. Maybe if I had bigger cahoones and could call and ask straight out!

[Teachin'Mine]

St. Mary's sounds like it would be a great option.  Hope it gets the thumbs-up on the visit!   Considering your finances, ignore percent of need met and look at the cost of attendance and merit aid that's available.   I know that St. Mary's is Maryland's honors college, but I'd also check into U of Md and find out about their honors program.  With the willingness to have a good community college as a back up plan, you will have options and much less stress!   Yes, it's very sensible strategy and a great way to show universities what kind of college student you really are - high GPA, active involvement, research, etc..  You may also want to check into U of Delaware and it's honors college.  I've read that they can give good merit scholarships to OOS students with high stats.

[Muttichen]

Have you looked at McDaniel?  I know kids who have gotten very nice merit aid packages there.

 

In general, even your safeties should be colleges your child would be happy at.  Our kids never applied to College Park or UMBC because we didn't want to be tempted by a full scholarship if we really didn't like the school.  Their safeties were schools like Grove City.

 

I have heard good things about St. Mary's and it's beautiful there!

[8filltheheart]

Disregarding EFC and financial aid offers, do you have a realistic dollar amt of what you are willing to spend per yr for college? Bc if you read through this yr's college threads, $$ is what it came down to for a lot of us. Knowing that JMU is probably not going to offer any merit $$ and assuming a high EFC, what is your willingness to take out loans or pay in cash for $XX?

 

Don't share those numbers, but that is where you as a family need to probably start.

[Guest]

St. Mary's sounds like it would be a great option. Hope it gets the thumbs-up on the visit! Considering your finances, ignore percent of need met and look at the cost of attendance and merit aid that's available. I know that St. Mary's is Maryland's honors college, but I'd also check into U of Md and find out about their honors program. With the willingness to have a good community college as a back up plan, you will have options and much less stress! Yes, it's very sensible strategy and a great way to show universities what kind of college student you really are - high GPA, active involvement, research, etc.. You may also want to check into U of Delaware and it's honors college. I've read that they can give good merit scholarships to OOS students with high stats.

U of Delaware is on our "go have a look" list.

 

Have you looked at McDaniel? I know kids who have gotten very nice merit aid packages there.

 

In general, even your safeties should be colleges your child would be happy at. Our kids never applied to College Park or UMBC because we didn't want to be tempted by a full scholarship if we really didn't like the school. Their safeties were schools like Grove City.

 

I have heard good things about St. Mary's and it's beautiful there!

Grove City is another inexpensive college where I think we'll have a look. I do love McDaniel; I may be transferring there for my own college (currently at CC). Their sticker price is horrifying, but apparently they give generous aid.

 

Disregarding EFC and financial aid offers, do you have a realistic dollar amt of what you are willing to spend per yr for college? Bc if you read through this yr's college threads, $$ is what it came down to for a lot of us. Knowing that JMU is probably not going to offer any merit $$ and assuming a high EFC, what is your willingness to take out loans or pay in cash for $XX?

 

Don't share those numbers, but that is where you as a family need to probably start.

I do have an out-of-pocket figure in mind. DD is in private high school, so at the very least, I know we can pay a related figure O-o-p. Still, it's intimidating to face the great unknown. I wish it were more straight-forward to compare colleges by price. I see many, many instances where the actual cost is far less, where the sticker was stratospheric. *sigh* It bugs me in a way, because I feel like I am being forced to accept a level of uncertainty that would never be present with other large investments/ purchases.

[Teachin'Mine]

Sorry, I saw your comments about UMd after I posted.  I've seen that finances affect almost all families applying to colleges, whether at the low end, the high end, or the middle end.  It's just what is.  You're smart to be looking into all of this now when you have time to consider many option.  In doing a quick search, I came across this article by Forbes.  This might help you to come up with more options. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2013/05/14/tuition-discount-alert-50-great-colleges-desperately-seeking-students/

 

For any with seniors who want more options for next year, it's possible that some of these have openings and are still accepting applications now.

 

Edit:  Adding this CC link for colleges/universities with automatic merit scholarships based on test scores, GPA, etc.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html

[Luckymama]

U of Delaware is on our "go have a look" list.

.

I'd be happy to answer questions you (and anyone else) may have about UD. We have a junior in the College of Engineering and a freshman in the College of Arts and Sciences. We've also lived in Newark for twenty years.

[8filltheheart]

This thread is helpful in understanding some of the aid/ stacking issues.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1573631-what-colleges-allow-you-to-stack-merit-and-need-based-aid.html

[Nan in Mass]

Sorry, I saw your comments about UMd after I posted.  I've seen that finances affect almost all families applying to colleges, whether at the low end, the high end, or the middle end.  It's just what is.  You're smart to be looking into all of this now when you have time to consider many option.  In doing a quick search, I came across this article by Forbes.  This might help you to come up with more options. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2013/05/14/tuition-discount-alert-50-great-colleges-desperately-seeking-students/

 

For any with seniors who want more options for next year, it's possible that some of these have openings and are still accepting applications now.

 

Edit:  Adding this CC link for colleges/universities with automatic merit scholarships based on test scores, GPA, etc.

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html

 

Would you be willing to post the Forbes article in its own post, with an encouraging it's-not-too-late title for those on these boards who have students who want to go to college in the fall but have not yet found a spot?  There must be some of us who are panicking or mourning or feeling baffled rather than celebrating.  There might be some of us who have been dealing with emergencies and were unable to apply.  Or who have had non-college plans fall through, or changed their mind about further education.  This might be welcome news.  If you could perhaps mention that it is also still possible to apply to colleges with rolling admissions, that might also be helpful.  If you haven't been through the college application process before and you don't know terms like "rolling admissions", you might miss some good opportunities.

 

Nan

[Teachin'Mine]

Good idea Nan.  If you don't mind, I'll carry over your post as you explain it well about looking for rolling admissions and all.  :001_smile:

[daijobu]

Keep looking. You just never know when a school is going to give THAT feeling. 

 

Also consider returning to your safety univ. for another visit, maybe next fall?  Was your negative vibe reflecting a serious issue or was it just a meh?  A second visit will give you more data and may just turn your meh into a smile.  Or it will confirm your negative feelings and you'll be acting with greater certainty and confidence.

[Gwen in VA]

And do remember those selective but not top-tier private colleges. Often they give $$$ to attract top students.

 

Also, some state schools give a LOT more merit aid than others. U. Del and U Pitt are both fairly generous to top OOS students.