9yo hates 5yo, what to do?

[kathkath]

My 9yo is typical bossy oldest, and is great friends with my middle child. My youngest is a wonderful playmate to other children (and to my middle when oldest is not around). Youngest knows oldest doesn't like him so purposefully baits oldest and does all sorts of annoying things. Oldest has zero patience for him and is pretty nasty to him at times. When middle is gone for extended periods (visiting relatives or whatnot) oldest can warm up a bit to youngest. What do you suggest? I've had her sit and read books to him before but she cannot under any circumstance so let him touch her or even breathe on her...

 

Ideas?

[Starr]

If you aren't polite and kind you go to your room until you can behave nicely, every time.  :grouphug:

[Danestress]

Can you give specific examples of how the older is bossy and what the younger does to bait and annoy?

[Tmhearn]

First of all, stop calling your dd bossy. Ha ha! I'm just kidding.

 

I think this is a typical situation with 3 kids, right? Someone is always gonna be odd man out. Maybe they need a hobby or something that they can get involved in together??? My 9 yo and 4 yo are both girls. They mostly get along, but they certainly can get on each other's nerves. Some things they like to do together are color/draw, make movies with the iPad, ride bikes/scooters, watch movies, play tennis, have a dance party. :-)

[sassenach]

I have observed that the 4-5 year age gap is the hardest for sibling peace. I think it's because when the younger is at their most annoying stage of development , the older is at their least patient stage.

[MotherGoose]

I would personally require the oldest to be patient with youngest, and to be a good example of an older sibling. I would try to redirect the youngest, and the 5 yo is old enough to be told to leave 9 yo alone or else go to room alone.

[Trish]

When he annoys, off to his room (or to do a chore). When she is mean, off to her room (or to do a chore.)

 

Eventually they may tire of the routine, or, your house will get a lot cleaner.

 

I find if I ignore bad behavior, it escalates. So I intervene early and often.

[Desert Strawberry]

Is the 5yo really being intentionally obnoxious, or is he struggling to interact with his big sister but too immature to do so acceptably?

 

My situation is a little different. My middle two are 3 yrs apart and both boys. 4yo was continually "messing up", sneaking g into, and playing with 7yo' s toys, attempting to interact with 7yo and being rebuffed.

7yo is not patient. At. All. 

I had a talk with 7yo explaining that 4yo desperately wanted to be included, wasn't a baby ( he was 20 pounds and looked more like a 2yo. It's hard to remember he's not a baby), was big enough to play with big boy toys, and really needed a big brother to help him learn how. "You are the big brother, just like Sagg is your big brother. You are the cool kid with the coolest stuff. He wants to be just like you." 

Transforming him from a pesky baby to a paduan learner changed the dynamic between them instantly.

I am assuming your 9yo is not in a mothering role to your 5yo. I would change that. Give her some responsibility and guide her to be less "bossy" and more in a guidance and caretaking role. He is*her* baby brother, not just some kid who lives in her house. She needs some ownership of the relationship.

The 5yo needs some training on appropriate interactions. It sounds like right now, he is destined to fail. Help him find ways to be kind, loving, and helpful.

[Joanne]

You can't control *feelings*, level of connection or "like". But you can put limits around behavior. In that regard, a choice to be provoking or unkind becomes a choice of the child to be removed from play, and also possibly (if it is particularly bad) a choice to not participate in planned recreational activities.

 

A great book (it is Christian, if that makes a difference) on developing honor between siblings is by Scott Turansky and Joanne Miller called "Say Goodbye To Whining, Complaining and Bad Attitudes".

 

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Whining-Complaining-Attitudes-Your-ebook/dp/B000SEI51E/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398270091&sr=1-1&keywords=scott+turansky

 

[Cera]

We have had similar issues.  I don't tolerate nastiness from the older and I don't tolerate picking from the younger.  The younger can be truly obnoxious.  I have told the older it is her responsibility to ask her sister politely to stop or knock it off and if she doesn't to come get me for help.  I don't normally allow tattling but in this case I am the parent and it is my job to enforce good behavior, not my 9 year olds.  She shouldn't have to just tolerate her sister picking at her.  I have also made it clear to the younger that if her sister makes a reasonable request to stop and she doesn't there will be consequences (generally the younger is removed and given a chore to do).  

 

Lots of modeling and a little more maturity has made it easier lately but we still have issues.

[kathkath]

Thank you!! 9yo is not nurturing in the least, to anyone really. 5yo makes noises a lot just bc he is a 5yo boy, but she will tell him to stop which makes him do it more. That is most typical.

[Mary in VA]

I have observed that the 4-5 year age gap is the hardest for sibling peace. I think it's because when the younger is at their most annoying stage of development , the older is at their least patient stage.

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  My dds are 4 yrs 4 months apart. They drove each other CRAZY.  I was an only child and it made be so sad because I wanted them to have a good relationship. I don't really have any answers but I want to encourage you that it can get better!  Fast forward to today, dds are 23 and 19 and they get along.  Actually I see them getting along better every time they are together.  Oldest is able to offer advice now without having to sound like a "know it all"  and younger can listen without getting annoyed, and even take the advice!  Youngest can actually see that older does care about her and wants to help.  I think they are confident in who they are now and in their relationships with us (mom and dad), so they don't need to be constantly jockeying for position. So listen to all the wise advice given here, and take heart, it can get better!

[fairfarmhand]

I address the pestering just as much as I address the older sibling that punches the pesterer.

 

I redirect the younger to appropriately interact with the older. If he wants to be included, but doesn't know how to do so appropriately he may resort to being annoying. This takes being around to observe and direct. It takes lots of handholding. It also takes me being consistent. "Baby, you can play with older as long as you don't a, b, or c. If you do that, you are ruining the play and you will have to go to your room." I;ve found that my olders tolerate my younger much more if I don't let him ruin their fun.

 

In other words, if my girls are playing something, and my youngest son wants to take over the play by "bombing" all their toys with the airplanes and "shooting" them with his soldiers, I make him go away, because he's ruining their fun. It's the same for whining too.

[Danestress]

Thank you!! 9yo is not nurturing in the least, to anyone really. 5yo makes noises a lot just bc he is a 5yo boy, but she will tell him to stop which makes him do it more. That is most typical.

 

 

It maybe that she has a personality that is just not a good "fit" for him.  Some mothers are very motivated to train kids to do certain things because they are important to the mother personally.  There are mothers who can not deal with the noise and activity of kids shouting and running inside, and mothers who don't even notice.  It's okay for a mother who can't deal with it to train her kids to do their shouting and running outside.  Some mothers feel a real "need" for orderliness, and therefor carefully train kids from a young age to put their shoes on the rack, put their cup in the dishwasher, hang their coats where they belong.  Other mothers don't even think about the little messes and are happy to have designated "pick up your stuff" times when it gets too much.

 

Perhaps the problem is that your daughter is very easily annoyed by the 5 year olds annoying, loud behavior, but doesn't have the knowledge or authority in the family to address is constructively.  I have three sons, and I am going to say that I discouraged loud, annoying, rambunctious behavior inside. I "need" calm and quiet in a household.  I "need" it much more, incidentally, than I need my kids to be tidy.  My preferences for how to live in my own home matter, and even though some Moms think farting and burping are funny, I don't.  So I stopped my kids from doing it, and I don't apologize for that. 

 

So it's possible your daughter just really can't stand behavior that you think is normal and reasonable for a five year old, and it's possible that many great Moms would agree with her, not you.  Or maybe there is some grey area -  she doesn't really understand what is normal five year old behavior, but within the range of "normal" is more easily annoyed than you.

 

I might start teaching her how to deal with it better.  You might talk to her about skills to deal with five year olds.  They get more annoying at times of the day when they are tired, hungry, or bored.  When they get loud and physical, sometimes they need to burn some energy outside, so rather than tell him to stop, offer to take him outside and throw a ball.   Tell her she's lucky she's the sister and not the Mom, because she never has to feel bad just politely excusing herself and going into her own room to read.   Make sure she has space to get away and take a break.

 

I would not tolerate her being ugly to him just because he is annoying.  He doesn't have to be perfect to deserve respect and kindness.  But I also would use all my best Mom skills to nip his annoyingness in the bud, especially when it's basically being used to get her attention or get a rise out of her.  If you teach her parenting skills and then model them yourself, this could benefit her later.  She doesn't necessarily need to be more "nurturing" if that's not her personality.  But she may very well need to be a better problem solver and learn to be better at getting what she wants from other people.  She's getting the opposite of what she wants from him right now.

[Gentlemommy]

We have had similar issues. I don't tolerate nastiness from the older and I don't tolerate picking from the younger. The younger can be truly obnoxious. I have told the older it is her responsibility to ask her sister politely to stop or knock it off and if she doesn't to come get me for help. I don't normally allow tattling but in this case I am the parent and it is my job to enforce good behavior, not my 9 year olds. She shouldn't have to just tolerate her sister picking at her. I have also made it clear to the younger that if her sister makes a reasonable request to stop and she doesn't there will be consequences (generally the younger is removed and given a chore to do).

 

Lots of modeling and a little more maturity has made it easier lately but we still have issues.

My three are 3, 6, and 9, and we have the same policies.

[MomatHWTK]

We don't cut the little one any slack once he's over age 4.  (Apparently our household is all in agreement that they stop being cute then. ;) )  Everyone speaks kindly or is removed and no one is allowed to push other people's buttons.  Between 5 and 8 seems to be the age where getting a rise out of someone else is "fun."  So we have to  be more vigilant during that time frame. 

 

Our middle son particularly enjoyed the hidden taunt when he was that age.  Revenge is being served now as his younger brother was apparently watching and learned every trick and added a few of his own.  It is going to be an interesting 2-3 years around here.  One teen, one who acts like a teen and the two youngers battling for position.  :hat:

[Amy in NH]

[snip] Youngest knows oldest doesn't like him so purposefully baits oldest and does all sorts of annoying things. [snip]

 

This is unacceptable.  I wouldn't like someone who was intentionally annoying to me, either. 

 

It sounds like your problem is not the oldest...

[Amy in NH]

We have had similar issues.  I don't tolerate nastiness from the older and I don't tolerate picking from the younger.  The younger can be truly obnoxious.  I have told the older it is her responsibility to ask her sister politely to stop or knock it off and if she doesn't to come get me for help.  I don't normally allow tattling but in this case I am the parent and it is my job to enforce good behavior, not my 9 year olds.  She shouldn't have to just tolerate her sister picking at her.  I have also made it clear to the younger that if her sister makes a reasonable request to stop and she doesn't there will be consequences (generally the younger is removed and given a chore to do).  

 

Lots of modeling and a little more maturity has made it easier lately but we still have issues.

 

This is exactly how I handled it, and my kids get along famously.

[gardenmom5]

Youngest knows oldest doesn't like him so purposefully baits oldest and does all sorts of annoying things.

Ideas?

when youngest does something to bait oldest and oldest retaliates - who gets in trouble?  this may have been going on far longer than you have any conception of, and could be the reason the older one doesn't like the younger.

 

there is a dear sweet older woman (she also had super soaker fights with her grandkids when she was in her 70's.) at church who told the story of how she dealt with two of her grandsons (great-grandsons?) when they were staying at her home engaging in similar behavior.  their mother hadn't realized just how much the younger one was baiting the older one.  grandma noticed.  she sat them both down and this is what she said: (basically)

 

no matter what happens, the younger one will be the one in trouble.  if the older one punches younger (because younger is baiting) - younger will be punished. (etc.)  and that would remain in effect until she was convinced there was no more baiting behavior going on.

 

for the first time the younger sibling was held fully accountable for the baiting that had driven his older sibling to dislike him.  the older was feeling like justice was finally being served and that lessened his resentment too.  It didn't take long to change the dynamic.

[Luanne]

Sorry, but I disagree about it being typical or normal for your 9 year old to be bossy.  It sounds like something you have tolerated from her for a long time and now don't know what to do about it.  I agree with the people who say "send her to her room" EVERY single time she is like this.  Staying in your room all the time isn't fun.  Make sure there is nothing fun in there for her besides.

[katilac]

Thank you!! 9yo is not nurturing in the least, to anyone really. 5yo makes noises a lot just bc he is a 5yo boy, but she will tell him to stop which makes him do it more. That is most typical.

 

This is actually fairly easy to solve, so lucky you if it's a big part of the problem! At 5, he is old enough to know that random noise-making is acceptable in some situations and not others. You don't play football in the house, you play football outside. Where is it okay for ds to make noise? My answer might be: outside, in his own room, and in the play room. 

 

So, if he's making noise in the living room, you say, "DS, if you want to make that noise, you need to leave the living room." If he's in the playroom, and dd complains, you say, "He can make noise in the playroom. If you don't want to hear it, you may go outside or in the living room." 

 

And I agree with those who say you need to call him out on the baiting behavior, and her on the rude behavior, every single time; also with strawberry mama and spending time explaining and training specific positive ways they can change their behavior and get better results. 

 

I would also not be above a bit of bribery. Once you have spent some time making sure they know you will indeed stop them every single time, I'd add in a positive reward. Get them each a jar and fill it with candy or quarters, whatever will motivate them. Every time ds baits, remove a candy from his jar. Every time dd is nasty, remove a candy from her jar. At the end of the day, they can eat what's left (or keep the money). 

 

When they start having some success, then try a bigger joint reward. This should be a fabulous treat they both love and don't get often - I'd want to be able to show it to them, so I'd pick a Dairy Queen ice cream cake over a trip to Dairy Queen, or I'd use a $20 bill or a HUGE jar of quarters. It has to be something they BOTH get excited over, something beyond a day-to-day treat.

 

Show them the reward and ask them if they would like to have it. Explain that they can have it as soon as they go (one day, two days, whatever you decide) with ZERO sibling infractions. That means zero for him, and zero for her. They have to work together, and it's in their best interest to let small things slide. If they goof up one day, just reset the clock the next day. If they make it to lunch, praise them, show them the reward again, and remind them that they have made it halfway. 

 

If nothing else, you will have more peace and quiet than usual, lol, and, even though they might be doing it for the 'wrong' reasons, it helps break the pattern. 

[Joanne]

Sorry, but I disagree about it being typical or normal for your 9 year old to be bossy.  It sounds like something you have tolerated from her for a long time and now don't know what to do about it.  I agree with the people who say "send her to her room" EVERY single time she is like this.  Staying in your room all the time isn't fun.  Make sure there is nothing fun in there for her besides.

 

 

"Bossy" is a common personality trait. Elevated levels of bossy is common in oldest children.