Help with Saxon Math

[Suzanne115]

Hi -

 

My sixth grade daughter will finish Saxon 8/7 this year.  She has done fine with it, but it has been a frustrating year for her.  She has scored 85 or higher on most of her tests.  I am trying to decide if we should do Saxon 1/2 next year or Algebra 1.  I think she could do Algebra 1.  I'm just not sure I want to see her so frustrated with math.  She is an excellent student, but she hates math.  What do you think?

 

Suzanne

[...................]

Algebra is very different from

Arithmetic. How dud she do with the algebra portions of 8/7? That's how I would go about deciding.

[Suzanne115]

Good point.  She is having difficulty with the algebra portions too.  She has become frustrated lately and tends to want to give up quickly.  If I talk her through the problems, she can usually understand it pretty quickly. 

 

Suzanne

[happypamama]

DD did 76 last year and went on to Algebra 1/2 this year. We are doing it slowly, interspersed with other math things, and in something like 47 lessons, she's learned barely one new thing.

[abaent]

I am in the same boat. My 6th grade son is finishing 8/7 with similar results. I found the Algebra 1/2 used for a few bucks, so I ended up buying it and looking through it. Have you looked through both the Algebra 1/2 and the Algebra 1 books? That may help you decide. In the 1/2 book, there are only 20 problems per problem set. Also, after conquering the 8/7 "beast" it looks quite easy in comparison. My plan is to give my son the tests in the 1/2 book. If he misses a problem, then we will go back to the 1/2 book and work through the lesson that covers that. There are 35 tests for the 1/2 book, so if he can work through those successfully, I think I can feel good about him moving to the Algebra 1 book. I am looking at it as a thorough review before tackling Algebra 1. It may be worthwhile for you to invest $15 in an old 1/2 set and look at it/ or work through the tests. 

 

I certainly understand your feelings. You want to challenge your child, but not frustrate them (especially when they are already well ahead being 6th graders that have finished 8/7).  :laugh:

 

High five!

[Reefgazer]

According to what you report, Saxon says step on up to algebra, but I suppose that depends on extenuating circumstances.  What about it does she find frustrating?

[Suzanne115]

She finds almost everything about math frustrating.  I think mainly it is a subject that requires her to put forth more effort than she would like.  She gets frustrated because it doesn't all come easily to her.  She is much better at math than she realizes.  She just isn't as good at math as she is her other subjects.  I read what Saxon recommends.  I am just not sure if it is right for her.  Math has been a daily source of frustration for most of this year.  She usually does okay on the work, but it takes her a long time and she gets very frustrated during the process.  I don't want to waste a year of math development.  But, I don't want another year filled with frustration either.

 

Suzanne

 

 

[MiMi 4under3]

Since your daughter expresses frustration and it takes her a long time to complete the lessons, I suggest Algebra 1/2 to solidify those basics that should be almost automatic before starting Algebra 1.  Especially since she's only in 6th grade - there's no rush.

 

 

[Omma]

I've heard math being compared to sports.  If you want to be really good at a sport, keep doing the plays (that you already know) over and over again until they become automatic or second nature to you, and then develop greater speed and agility to what you already 'know'.  Whether it's soccer or basketball or gymnastics, they work for 'muscle memory' and we can do the same thing in math.  Instead of always being on the cutting edge of difficulty, we can spend some time developing speed, accuracy and making various number patterns as comfortable as an old shoe....such as knowing all the factors of 24 without having to think about them, or the various triplets in the Pythagorean theorem (ie 3,4,5; 6,8,10), or that 25 x 25 is 625.  Then playing with numbers can become fun and not so frustrating. 

 

Thus, I'd vote for giving your dd some time to develop what they call 'automaticity' in math so that she can develop speed and a comfort level so that her confidence and 'fun factor' in math has a chance to grow and mature, especially since she is so young and Algebra 1/2 is easily available to use.

[wapiti]

She finds almost everything about math frustrating.  I think mainly it is a subject that requires her to put forth more effort than she would like.  She gets frustrated because it doesn't all come easily to her.  She is much better at math than she realizes.  She just isn't as good at math as she is her other subjects.  I read what Saxon recommends.  I am just not sure if it is right for her.  Math has been a daily source of frustration for most of this year.  She usually does okay on the work, but it takes her a long time and she gets very frustrated during the process.  I don't want to waste a year of math development.  But, I don't want another year filled with frustration either.

 

Are you considering other options?  There are lots of threads here and on the high school board about algebra 1 choices and I'm sure many posters would be happy to offer alternatives if you'd prefer to start your own thread.  Since she is advanced in math, you might also visit the Accelerated Learning board.  Maybe the style isn't suited to her - it depends on what you mean about being frustrating.

 

On the one hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with having to put forth effort, even in a subject in which one is advanced; IMO, strengths often need to be developed.  On the other hand, Saxon wouldn't be my cup of tea for developing a love of math.  If she doesn't feel that way either, maybe it's a good time to look around at other styles.

[Omma]

Hmm... I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but I just realized that I also have a 6th grade dd who is just finishing Saxon 8/7 this year (to be fair, I think of her as older because of her late Nov. b-day and the fact that we have gone back and forth on whether we wanted her to be a 7th or 6th grader this past year).  But anyway, I can tell you that she has adored math class as her favorite class all year.  She loves math and has not been frustrated one single bit.  Even so, I have contemplated having her go through Alg. 1/2 tests this summer because her older brother is at the same level in math (but with lower scores and significant frustration).  I hate to move her up a level while making him hang at Alg. 1/2 for awhile.  Decisions, decisions....

[Omma]

And yet another comment.  It doesn't have to be 'wasting another year in math'...it could be doing Algebra 1/2 through Christmas and then starting Alg. 1 after the new year, if that's what you wanted to do.  Whenever the math 'spark' comes back in her eye, or math problems don't take quite as long to finish, then you can decide she's ready for the new level.  It's your choice, as you know you dc best and it is so great to know we have so many options (including switching curriculum companies if that's what you truly thought was best).

[laughing lioness]

Is she "math smart," and analytical- than Saxon is is the way to go. If she is struggling, I'd move to a different curriculum. My very smart 14 yo practically wept at the sight of Saxon. He is just finishing Learn Math Fast Applications of Algebra (after cruising through LMF Algebra). Leaving Saxon behind was the best gift I gave him this year. 

My 11 yo mathy girl is still racing through Saxon and loving it. 

 

[Ellie]

Hi -

 

My sixth grade daughter will finish Saxon 8/7 this year.  She has done fine with it, but it has been a frustrating year for her.  She has scored 85 or higher on most of her tests.  I am trying to decide if we should do Saxon 1/2 next year or Algebra 1.  I think she could do Algebra 1.  I'm just not sure I want to see her so frustrated with math.  She is an excellent student, but she hates math.  What do you think?

 

Suzanne

 

She's just 6th grade. I'd be very tempted to have her work through 87 again.

[Suzanne115]

Thank you all so much for your input.  It really helps to get other people's perspective.  I'm still undecided, but you have all given me things to consider. 

 

 

Thanks again,

Suzanne

[Gr8tful4HisGrace]

Have you considered whether it might be the incremental review that is frustrating her?  All of my kids ended up doing much better with other curriculum once we passed a certain point in Saxon.  (Usually somewhere in 7/6)  There were too many concepts all the time with little being completely mastered.  It made them all nuts.  Once we switched to a more mastery based approach, their enjoyment of math (and competency) returned. 

 

I am definitely not saying that this is what is happening here, but it's a thought to consider.

 

 

[Reefgazer]

She finds almost everything about math frustrating.  I think mainly it is a subject that requires her to put forth more effort than she would like.  She gets frustrated because it doesn't all come easily to her.  She is much better at math than she realizes.  She just isn't as good at math as she is her other subjects.  I read what Saxon recommends.  I am just not sure if it is right for her.  Math has been a daily source of frustration for most of this year.  She usually does okay on the work, but it takes her a long time and she gets very frustrated during the process.  I don't want to waste a year of math development.  But, I don't want another year filled with frustration either.

 

Suzanne

 

To the bolded:  I've got one like this, but she just cranks the stuff out while kvetching about it non-stop.  I've offered up other possibilities for math as far as curriculum goes (figuring maybe she is aggravated by the constant incremental review), but she doesn't want to part with Saxon.  It's like she has this weird love-hate relationship with those dang math books.

 

My daughter will be going to 8/7 from 7/6 this year, and based on her 7/6 grades (nearly all in the 90s) and what I see of 8/7 it will be quite manageable.  I'm tempted to skip her to algebra, but I am afraid she'll miss something important and bomb algebra.  I want to feed her some AoPS pre-algebra but she is resistant and wants to keep those Saxon books.  So, what I've decided to do with her next year is keep the Saxon books and use AoPS as a fun supplement, to work through very leisurely and with no pressure to finish a certain amount or get a certain grade.  If your daughter is competent in 8/7 yet still takes forever to do her work, I'd consider she may be bored with the curriculum.  So although Algebra 1/2 would be a possible next step, if she really is good at math, consider something more deep and challenging (like AoPS pre-algebra); it might give her the attitude adjustment she needs.  Worst thing that could happen would be AoPS isn't her style, you lose a few months, and then you just buzz through Algebra 1/2 a bit faster to complete it by the time she's due for algebra. 

[Suzanne115]

Thank you both for your input.  I am really reluctant to switch to a different math curriculum.  I don't want her to have gaps in her math knowledge.  I know a lot of people who switched around and regretted it.  I don't think she will like any math curriculum and that is okay.  I don't like math either.  Luckily, my husband loves it and is available for support.  I do think math is boring for her, but I don't think the math is too easy..  I think I will probably go ahead with Saxon 1/2, but I have a little more time before I need to decide.  We have about 20 lessons left in Saxon 8/7.

 

Thanks again for your input.  It is really helpful.

 

Suzanne

[wapiti]

I am really reluctant to switch to a different math curriculum.  I don't want her to have gaps in her math knowledge.  I know a lot of people who switched around and regretted it.  I don't think she will like any math curriculum and that is okay.  I don't like math either.  Luckily, my husband loves it and is available for support.  I do think math is boring for her, but I don't think the math is too easy..  I think I will probably go ahead with Saxon 1/2, but I have a little more time before I need to decide.  We have about 20 lessons left in Saxon 8/7.

 

FWIW, from a perspective of development of a strength and exposure to something that's closer to "real" mathematics rather than drill-and-kill, there are very good supplements available for problem solving, many of them from AoPS, such as Problem Solving volumes 1 and 2 and the Intro books on discrete math topics (counting and probability, and number theory, especially good choices if, for example, she becomes interested in programming).  IIRC, most of those texts would be appropriate to try part-way through, or after, algebra 1, though there's also an on-line Mathcounts class that would be appropriate for her level now.

[Suzanne115]

Thank you.  I will take a look.  I have read a little about these math courses on this board, but I haven't really looked into.  We usually do some supplemental math in the summer so it might work for that. 

[scott777]

Suzanne,  if you decide to stick with Saxon there is another option.  I have spoken with the author Stephen Hake and his preference for homeschoolers is to try to do the Course 3 book between 8/7 and Algebra 1.  My son is in the middle of 8/7 and is doing fine but I will require him to do the Course 3 book as per Mr. Hake's suggestion before hitting Algebra 1.  He is just turned 12 and I agree with Mr. Hake that it is important to build that foundation strong and deep before going to Algebra and beyond.  Here is an email interview I did with him where he mentions Course 3.

 

http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/saxon-math-author-stephen-hake-part-2/

 

You can do the 8/7 again, or even the Alg 1/2.  but I think Course 3 is better than those options if you can find it.  It is not sold as an official homeschool product but only to schools as an 8th grade book.  I was able to purchase the student book, and solutions manual through an Amazon.com reseller.  It is definitely a great bridge between 8/7 and Algebra 1.

 

Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

Scott

[Suzanne115]

Thanks Scott.   I will take a look and see if I can find it.

 

Suzanne

[Reefgazer]

FWIW, from a perspective of development of a strength and exposure to something that's closer to "real" mathematics rather than drill-and-kill, there are very good supplements available for problem solving, many of them from AoPS, such as Problem Solving volumes 1 and 2 and the Intro books on discrete math topics (counting and probability, and number theory, especially good choices if, for example, she becomes interested in programming).  IIRC, most of those texts would be appropriate to try part-way through, or after, algebra 1, though there's also an on-line Mathcounts class that would be appropriate for her level now.

 

Can you tell me more about the bolded?  Are these supplements instead the full-on AoPS curricula you're referring to?  More stuff on certain topics, in order to enrich the current curriculum?  How does that work if/when the currently curriculum uses an entirely different style?  This may be an option for my daughter; I'll have to look into it.

[wapiti]

Can you tell me more about the bolded?  Are these supplements instead the full-on AoPS curricula you're referring to?  More stuff on certain topics, in order to enrich the current curriculum?  How does that work if/when the currently curriculum uses an entirely different style?  This may be an option for my daughter; I'll have to look into it.

 

I am referring to texts that fall outside the standard sequence.  The Intro to Counting and Probability and Intro to Number Theory texts are listed under AoPS Curriculum.   On the web page for each of these texts, under the "diagnostic tests" tab, there is a pre-test.

 

Problem Solving Vol. 1 and 2 are listed under Contest Prep.  I don't know what the prerequisite requirements are for these texts.

[Reefgazer]

I am referring to texts that fall outside the standard sequence.  The Intro to Counting and Probability and Intro to Number Theory texts are listed under AoPS Curriculum.   On the web page for each of these texts, under the "diagnostic tests" tab, there is a pre-test.

 

Problem Solving Vol. 1 and 2 are listed under Contest Prep.  I don't know what the prerequisite requirements are for these texts.

 

Thanks!  She is not quite to pre-algebra yet, so those texts would be way above her head, but they look useful in the future and I'll have to get my hands on them in a year or so.

[wapiti]

Thanks!  She is not quite to pre-algebra yet, so those texts would be way above her head, but they look useful in the future and I'll have to get my hands on them in a year or so.

 

FWIW, there are problem-solving supplements for elementary levels too.  If you'd like something for the summer or, say, Friday afternoons, you could try something like the MOEMS books (vol 2 has problems divided between elementary and middle school levels; Creative Problem Solving includes more instruction on problem solving techniques); realize that for math contests, students may start out knowing how to do none of the problems - a very different scenario from a regular math assignment or test where one expects to know how to do the problems right away and correctly.  (These are just the first supplements that popped into my head.  There are others.)

[Brenda in FL]

After tutoring Algebra 1 for several students this past year, using Saxon, my advice would be to move on to Algebra 1 (based on her 87 test scores) and repeat Algebra 1 if necessary rather than repeating another year of pre-algebra. 

[janainaz]

Saxon Algebra I really picks up the pace mid-way through the book.   The lessons can begin to take a REALLY long time as the concepts become more complex.  

 

On one hand, if she has mastered all of the pre Algebra concepts, she very well could move up to Algebra I.  I would recommend that only if she has those concepts cemented because she will surely need them.  Saxon Algebra already introduces so many new things, that she will struggle if she's rusty on the basics.  

 

I agree with the above post,  - if she needs to repeat any year of algebra, it would be more beneficial to repeat Algebra I.  Another suggestion, possibly rather than repeat Algebra I, is that if it is taking her a long time to do the lessons, you could possibly slow down the pace a tad bit and have her do one lesson over two days.  

 

My son is mid-way through Algebra I.  At this point he is not struggling (yet), but he is growing discouraged at how long it's taking him to complete a lesson.  They need time to be accurate so that careless mistakes are not made.  We have started to break the lesson up when we need to.  I have been wondering if it's taking longer because he is needing more instruction and explanation (more than I can offer).  Up until now, he's been able to review the new concept on his own and get right to the lesson.  However, the learning of some of the new concepts it taking him at least 30 minutes or longer.  

 

Good luck!

[Hunter]

Saxon is meant to be easy. The biggest mistake parents make is to place students too high. Placement should be where the student is comfortable practicing, not where they understand.

 

Hake is making his new series even wider than the new editions of the original series he first wrote, but that was overseen by Saxon. Saxon believed in a narrower scope and sequence. Saxon drilled the BASICS and the PRIORITIES and didn't try to master EVERYTHING. The wider topics can be skipped or covered with picture books or hands on; they don't need to be included in Saxon practice sets. I don't recommend the new Hake series for struggling or averages students.

 

I would have this student do Saxon 1/2. 87 was written by Hake and 1/2 was written by Saxon and they overlap the same level, but are written by different authors with different philosophies. I don't have the books to compare, but I'm going to assume 1/2 is narrower than 87, and a perfect book for struggling and average students to spend some time prioritizing the critical topics needed to get ready for Algebra 1.

 

Saxon is the only high school series that I am capable of teaching after algebra 2. Never again will I switch from Saxon for high school, for a student that will be doing advanced math. I might use something different for a student's whose last course will be algebra 1, and just needs a quick introduction.

[stupidusername]

Suzanne,  if you decide to stick with Saxon there is another option.  I have spoken with the author Stephen Hake and his preference for homeschoolers is to try to do the Course 3 book between 8/7 and Algebra 1.  My son is in the middle of 8/7 and is doing fine but I will require him to do the Course 3 book as per Mr. Hake's suggestion before hitting Algebra 1.  He is just turned 12 and I agree with Mr. Hake that it is important to build that foundation strong and deep before going to Algebra and beyond.  Here is an email interview I did with him where he mentions Course 3.

 

http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/saxon-math-author-stephen-hake-part-2/

 

You can do the 8/7 again, or even the Alg 1/2.  but I think Course 3 is better than those options if you can find it.  It is not sold as an official homeschool product but only to schools as an 8th grade book.  I was able to purchase the student book, and solutions manual through an Amazon.com reseller.  It is definitely a great bridge between 8/7 and Algebra 1.

 

Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

Scott

 

My son is in Saxon 8/7 now and we're planning to do the Course 3 book next, just as you suggest above. We are also spending about 15 minutes a day on AoPS pre-Algebra.

[LindaOz]

Saxon 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 are very similar in content except that Algebra 1/2 moves faster with not as much review.  So, maybe if your dd is not feeling totally confident with what she has done then Alg 1/2 might be a good way to go.