Any Circe devotees who AREN'T Christian?

[Aspasia]

I have been very inspired by the Circe discussions and the talks I've read and listened to. I see truth, beauty, wisdom, and virtue as concepts that don't require a religious context. I can listen to the Circe talks and hear the speakers' wisdom in secular terms (even though they're obviously extremely laden with Christian language and references). I definitely take what I like and leave a lot of the things that don't necessarily apply to me as an agnostic.

 

So...any Circe followers who AREN'T Christian?

[Coco_Clark]

I am a Christian, so maybe I'm looking at it from too skewed a perspective to have this right but...  All of the philosophies and even methodologies of Circe are so based on the assumed reality of absolute truth that I think you'd have to be coming from the same background of assuming that absolute truth exists.  Obviously Socrates, Aristotle, ect were not Christian, even though they are quoted and referenced wildly in the Circe world.  But they did believe in absolute truth.  These days relativism seems to rule the day in all but conservative religious circles, which is why you don't meet many non-christian Circe fans.  

 

That being said I disagree with 75% of Waldorf but I still find inspiration there every once in a while.  Its the joy of being the type of person that can take what you like and leave the rest.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I am a Christian, so maybe I'm looking at it from too skewed a perspective to have this right but...  All of the philosophies and even methodologies of Circe are so based on the assumed reality of absolute truth that I think you'd have to be coming from the same background of assuming that absolute truth exists.  Obviously Socrates, Aristotle, ect were not Christian, even though they are quoted and referenced wildly in the Circe world.  But they did believe in absolute truth.  These days relativism seems to rule the day in all but conservative religious circles, which is why you don't meet many non-christian Circe fans.  

 

That being said I disagree with 75% of Waldorf but I still find inspiration there every once in a while.  Its the joy of being the type of person that can take what you like and leave the rest.

 

 

I "liked" this, but I wish there was a "love" option to click.  :-) 

 

I don't believe you need "religion" to believe in absolute virtues, but it's verrrrrry hard to make an argument for absolutes without at least being deist. 

[momto2Cs]

I am not a Christian, yet I still gain a great deal from the Circe talks. I believe in beauty, truth, virtue, and wisdom, and I can see from the talks how to work toward those without necessarily having it be in a religious context, much as I can pull out principles from Waldorf without having to believe in the philosophy behind the ideas.

[sunnyday]

Me! I have been inspired by Kern and Perrin, listening to Circe and Society for Classical Learning audio for months now. In the end, "The Circe Way" is inextricably Christian. There's no getting around that. But we can look to the sources that Kern references and find our own interpretation of the messages there, as well as listening to the ideas that Kern embodies that have to do with teaching methodologies and inspiration.

 

Here are some quotes I've collected in the past few weeks.

"The oldest question in the world is, 'What good may I do in it?'" -- Benjamin Franklin

"An altered conception of the human being as such, and a new interpretation of the meaning of human existence as such, looms behind the new claims being made for 'work' and the 'worker'." -- Josef Pieper

"Above all things we must take care that the child, who is not yet old enough to love his studies, does not come to hate them and dread the bitterness which he has once tasted, even when the years of infancy are left behind." -- Quintilian

"Thinking does not come from learning. Learning comes from thinking." -- Bernard Nebel

"The 'liberality' or 'freedom' of the liberal arts consists in their not being disposable for purposes, that they do not need to be legitimated by a social function, by being 'work'." -- Pieper

"Stop introducing them to a thousand friends [novels] and let them get close to one or two friends." -- Andrew Kern

[TracyP]

Without getting into the details of my beliefs, I will say that I have no problem taking what I like and leaving the rest.

 

Regarding absolute truth from a non-religious perspective, some people may find The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris an interesting read.

[mmpmelmack]

I "liked" this, but I wish there was a "love" option to click. :-)

 

I don't believe you need "religion" to believe in absolute virtues, but it's verrrrrry hard to make an argument for absolutes without at least being deist.

I pull heavily from Circe, and yet i am an atheist. We see the beauty in nature without attributing it to a deity, I can know and believe it is wrong to murder, I can know and teach my children to help others, I don't see a need for a diety to tell me this, I know this as a person. My parents were atheist, they didn't teach me these things in context of religion, yet they knew as well.

 

I find that Circe is easily applied to any system of belief or non belief. It is easy to take the principals of reading great books, looking at art and music, and stopping to teach from a state of rest into any context. I think that many Christians will have a hard time with that as they are unable to separate truth and beauty from their beliefs. That's ok, it's what works for them. I love listening to everyone talk about these principals even when some of it doesnt apply to me, it's so wonderful to be surrounded by women of such passion for teaching their children what truth and beauty is for them.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I pull heavily from Circe, and yet i am an atheist. We see the beauty in nature without attributing it to a deity, I can know and believe it is wrong to murder, I can know and teach my children to help others, I don't see a need for a diety to tell me this, I know this as a person. My parents were atheist, they didn't teach me these things in context of religion, yet they knew as well.

 

I find that Circe is easily applied to any system of belief or non belief. It is easy to take the principals of reading great books, looking at art and music, and stopping to teach from a state of rest into any context. I think that many Christians will have a hard time with that as they are unable to separate truth and beauty from their beliefs. That's ok, it's what works for them. I love listening to everyone talk about these principals even when some of it doesnt apply to me, it's so wonderful to be surrounded by women of such passion for teaching their children what truth and beauty is for them.

 

I was atheist before converting to Catholicism.  One of the main reasons for my conversion was being unable to find a philosophically rigorous reason for my belief in absolute virtues.

 

I'm not saying that one cannot have/maintain/believe in absolute virtues like truth, goodness and beauty without God.  I'm saying that I find the philosophical defense of that belief is very difficult without God.  It has nothing to do with "We have to tell the truth because God says so."  It has to do with "Objective truth exists to be told." 

 

Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate about atheism vs belief, because we each walk our own path and no online debate has probably ever swayed a person either way, but I just want to make clear that the belief in absolutes does not mean that in order to be virtuous one must have a fear of God to "make" one behave.  Atheists can and are just as virtuous as Christians on average, I am sure. 

 

The question is the philosophical one:  Can "Virtue" the concept be defined without a God figure.  When I weighed the arguments for myself, I found the atheist argument lacking. 

[Aspasia]

I pull heavily from Circe, and yet i am an atheist. We see the beauty in nature without attributing it to a deity, I can know and believe it is wrong to murder, I can know and teach my children to help others, I don't see a need for a diety to tell me this, I know this as a person. My parents were atheist, they didn't teach me these things in context of religion, yet they knew as well.

 

I find that Circe is easily applied to any system of belief or non belief. It is easy to take the principals of reading great books, looking at art and music, and stopping to teach from a state of rest into any context. I think that many Christians will have a hard time with that as they are unable to separate truth and beauty from their beliefs. That's ok, it's what works for them. I love listening to everyone talk about these principals even when some of it doesnt apply to me, it's so wonderful to be surrounded by women of such passion for teaching their children what truth and beauty is for them.

I totally agree. I don't feel like I need to believe in absolutes in order to believe in truth. There is truth outside of religious questions. There is obviously virtue and wisdom outside of religious contexts.

 

I think I can use Circe ideas the same way I use CM ideas. I read her writings and just sort of skim past the "God talk". That may be blasphemous to her if she were alive today, but maybe not. Maybe she would be supportive of my use of her ideas in whatever context fits my life and values. Anyway, that's what I do with CM and what I intend to do with Circe. It's nice to know I'm not alone. :)

[sunnyday]

I do think it might merit a discussion somewhere (maybe not here but another Circe thread?) about what "following Circe" really means. IMO, it's impossible to divorce the things that the Circe Institute stands for from their basis in Christianity. Like Monica says, their whole definition of virtue is engendered on an understanding that God put those faculties in us, and their whole definition of education is based on the cultivation of virtue. We can use a different definition of virtue, but I'm not sure we're "doing Circe" any more at that point. This is why I haven't felt comfortable chiming in on Circe threads to date.

 

But I'm only just now to the bit in Sophie's World where she's learning about St. Augustine so maybe I'll soon have some new rabbit trails, since I gather that Augustine represents the source from which a melding of Greek Classical/Hellenistic and Biblical worldviews was carried forward. :)

[Aspasia]

I do think it might merit a discussion somewhere (maybe not here but another Circe thread?) about what "following Circe" really means. IMO, it's impossible to divorce the things that the Circe Institute stands for from their basis in Christianity. Like Monica says, their whole definition of virtue is engendered on an understanding that God put those faculties in us, and their whole definition of education is based on the cultivation of virtue.

Perhaps. In the end, I'm not too hung up on whether or not I'm truly following any philosophy. Perhaps a better question for this thread would have been about whether or not any non-Christians are inspired by Circe ideas and how that inspiration looks and plays out in their homeschools.

 

As for the virtues that Circe Institute believes are put in us by God, that's simple for someone like me to translate into non-religious terms--I believe that humans certainly have natural faculties, potential, and virtue that are unique to humans. I don't necessarily need to believe that God planted them in us in order to pursue them as elevating or uniquely human.

[idnib]

I'm Muslim and am following the threads and making some changes. I doubt that constitutes "following Circe" but I'm getting a lot out of it.

 

I read an article somewhere about how Muslims are heading to Jesuit schools because a lot of the education is like the old classical Islamic universities. There are quite a few people working in the U.S. to try and bring back Islamic classical education but it's going to be a long road. The Catholic model is a good one to follow for us.

 

Here's some text from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Classical_knowledge just to give an idea of where I'm coming from:

 

Following the fall of the Roman Empire and the dawn of the Middle Ages, many texts from Classical Antiquity had been unavailable to the Europeans. However, in the Middle East many of these Greek texts (such as Aristotle) were translated from Greek into Syriac during the 6th and 7th centuries by Nestorian, Melkite orJacobite monks living in Palestine, or by Greek exiles from Athens or Edessa who visited Islamic centres of higher learning. Many of these texts however were then kept, translated, and developed upon by the Islamic world, especially in centers of learning such as Baghdad, where a “House of Wisdomâ€, with thousands of manuscripts existed as soon as 832. These texts were translated again into European languages during the Middle Ages.^[1] Eastern Christians played an important role in exploiting this knowledge, especially through the Christian Aristotelician School of Baghdad in the 11th and 12th centuries.

These texts were translated back into Latin in multiple ways. The main points of transmission of Islamic knowledge to Europe were in Sicily and Toledo, Spain (withGerard of Cremona, 1114–1187). Burgundio of Pisa (died in 1193) discovered in Antioch lost texts of Aristotle and translated them into Latin.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

This is my main problem with Circe.  I'm not a Christian, and while I appreciate the values and virtues of the Circe mindset, the religious component always turns me off.

[justamouse]

This is my main problem with Circe.  I'm not a Christian, and while I appreciate the values and virtues of the Circe mindset, the religious component always turns me off.

I can totally see that. Before I became Catholic I did not like them at all. Matter of fact, I thought they were all that was wrong with homeschooling. :D 

 

It would be great if there were a secular option. :D 

[idnib]

I guess the Catholic aspect doesn't turn me off because right now in the North American Islamic community people are asking why we can't be more like Catholics with *high-quality* K-12 schools and top-notch universities. We have lots of schools run mostly out of mosques, but nothing like the Catholics have put together. It's quite amazing, actually.

 

As far as I know, this is the closest U.S. Muslims have come in the U.S.: http://www.zaytunacollege.org/about/our_mission/ 

 

That said, it is hard for me to grasp Catholicism emotionally, just because Islam is so non-hierarchical. But I admire the history, the keeping of important knowledge, the focus on language (very big for Muslims) and I'm a big fan of the current Pope! I think we have more in common than it appears at first glance.  :grouphug:

 

 

[justamouse]

I guess the Catholic aspect doesn't turn me off because right now in the North American Islamic community people are asking why we can't be more like Catholics with *high-quality* K-12 schools and top-notch universities. We have lots of schools run mostly out of mosques, but nothing like the Catholics have put together. It's quite amazing, actually.

 

As far as I know, this is the closest U.S. Muslims have come in the U.S.: http://www.zaytunacollege.org/about/our_mission/

 

That said, it is hard for me to grasp Catholicism emotionally, just because Islam is so non-hierarchical. But I admire the history, the keeping of important knowledge, the focus on language (very big for Muslims) and I'm a big fan of the current Pope! I think we have more in common than it appears at first glance.  :grouphug:

I think if I were Islamic, that university would be on my wish list for my kids-that sounds amazing! 

[sunnyday]

Perhaps. In the end, I'm not too hung up on whether or not I'm truly following any philosophy. Perhaps a better question for this thread would have been about whether or not any non-Christians are inspired by Circe ideas and how that inspiration looks and plays out in their homeschools.

 

As for the virtues that Circe Institute believes are put in us by God, that's simple for someone like me to translate into non-religious terms--I believe that humans certainly have natural faculties, potential, and virtue that are unique to humans. I don't necessarily need to believe that God planted them in us in order to pursue them as elevating or uniquely human.

 

Ditto the bolded! :)

 

I brought it up only because I saw a few posts that said "What Circe teaches can be applied under any belief system," and I feel like from what I've experienced of the Institute's teachings, that's just not true on such a general scale. So for me, I need to be very specific about the parts I find that I can adapt. Cultivating virtue as something innate rather than God-given is a great example of adaptation.

[CrunchyGirl]

Maybe I'll check out the Circe thread after all.

[kristinannie]

This is my main problem with Circe.  I'm not a Christian, and while I appreciate the values and virtues of the Circe mindset, the religious component always turns me off.

 

 

I'm Catholic and the Protestant flavor of it all really turns me off.  I've been to two of their conferences and, while I loved them, there were several talks that were openly anti-Catholic.  That said, I love a lot of their ideas and their views on education so I can look past it (although there was one talk I walked out of).  I think true Classical education can be for everyone, regardless of your faith or lack thereof.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm Catholic and the Protestant flavor of it all really turns me off.  I've been to two of their conferences and, while I loved them, there were several talks that were openly anti-Catholic.  That said, I love a lot of their ideas and their views on education so I can look past it (although there was one talk I walked out of).  I think true Classical education can be for everyone, regardless of your faith or lack thereof.

 

I do agree with this.  But when you look at the threads on the WTM boards relating to Circe, I feel like there is a MUCH higher percentage of Catholics than in other more general threads.  I have found this quite fascinating!  Something about Circe attracts Catholics.  :-) 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Not a devotee, but an interested listener (at times) here.  Some of the talks that people rave about don't really resonate the same way with me because the goals articulated are different than my goals - raising kids who love Christ isn't a goal of my homeschooling, for example - but raising kids who love truth and beauty is, and some of the talks have spoken to those goals in a way I've found helpful.  What I've found more helpful is the discussions here about the ideas raised from other people engaging with the Circe material (as long as they don't devolve into endless arguments about historical fiction  ;) ).

 

 

[idnib]

I'm Catholic and the Protestant flavor of it all really turns me off.  I've been to two of their conferences and, while I loved them, there were several talks that were openly anti-Catholic.  That said, I love a lot of their ideas and their views on education so I can look past it (although there was one talk I walked out of).  I think true Classical education can be for everyone, regardless of your faith or lack thereof.

 

I've only listened to a couple of talks and I didn't enjoy them. I didn't hear the anti-Catholic commentary but either I listened to different talks or as a non-Christian, I wasn't aware enough to notice them. 

 

I'm sorry.  :grouphug:

[kristinannie]

I do agree with this.  But when you look at the threads on the WTM boards relating to Circe, I feel like there is a MUCH higher percentage of Catholics than in other more general threads.  I have found this quite fascinating!  Something about Circe attracts Catholics.  :-) 

 

 

I agree with this.  I think there is a lot of truth in Circe and that is attractive to Catholics.  Also, I think they are trying to return to a true Classical education which really is a Catholic education at heart.  There are plenty of Catholics at the conferences (speakers and attendees) as well.  However, the main speakers are definitely Protestant.

[Coco_Clark]

I'm Catholic and the Protestant flavor of it all really turns me off. I've been to two of their conferences and, while I loved them, there were several talks that were openly anti-Catholic. That said, I love a lot of their ideas and their views on education so I can look past it (although there was one talk I walked out of). I think true Classical education can be for everyone, regardless of your faith or lack thereof.

I find this interesting, as I always thought Circe ran Catholic more than Protestant- and have several Protestant friends that cannot stand Kern because of his anti Protestant comments.

 

I'm neither Catholic or Protestant, though, so not apt to remember exact details on why I thought so.

 

Edited to add- maybe I thought so because so many of the book recommendations - "beauty in the word", " "desiring the kingdom", ect, are blatantly Catholic.

[kristinannie]

I find this interesting, as I always thought Circe ran Catholic more than Protestant- and have several Protestant friends that cannot stand Kern because of his anti Protestant comments.

 

I'm neither Catholic or Protestant, though, so not apt to remember exact details on why I thought so.

 

Edited to add- maybe I thought so because so many of the book recommendations - "beauty in the word", " "desiring the kingdom", ect, are blatantly Catholic.

 

Different perspectives are always interesting!  The Protestants at Circe (and other classical Protestants) often quote Catholic books.  I'm pretty sure that Desiring the Kingdom is a Protestant book, but I haven't read it.  Kern is definitely Protestant although he often does sound very Catholic (except when he definitely doesn't...lol).

[Coco_Clark]

Kern is actually Orthodox :). I've found (because I am Orthodox as well) that Protestants always think we are Catholic, and Catholics always think we are Protestant. Many Americans don't know there is a third option.

 

Smith (author of Desiring the Kingdom) is Protestant, but his educational ideals outlined in that book are so Augustinian (and admitted to be so) I will always consider it a Catholic book.

[kristinannie]

Did he convert to be Orthodox?  When I talked to him a couple of years ago he was telling me about the Evangelical Church that he was raised in.

[Coco_Clark]

Yes I believe he is a convert.  Or at least I always assume Americans are converts.  I have to admit to not knowing his particular journey.  I only know he is Orthodox because I heard him speak about it back in 2011 or 2010, and I assume he is still Orthodox because he was one of the speakers at the Orthodox home school convention this past month (and it is not the type of convention to have speakers outside of the faith).   

[kristinannie]

Yes I believe he is a convert.  Or at least I always assume Americans are converts.  I have to admit to not knowing his particular journey.  I only know he is Orthodox because I heard him speak about it back in 2011 or 2010, and I assume he is still Orthodox because he was one of the speakers at the Orthodox home school convention this past month (and it is not the type of convention to have speakers outside of the faith).   

 

That's really interesting!  That explains why he sounds so Catholic so much of the time.  The random Protestant comments probably stem from his upbringing.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

hmm...this thread has taken an interesting turn...now I'm getting confused as to what's going on...did more Christians respond to the thread than non-Christians? :huh: :lol:

 

I need to go back through and try to get everyone straight in my mind... ;)

 

It would be great to see how other non-Christians are applying Circe concepts to their homeschools. I usually don't make it far into the usual Circe threads, so I'm curious.

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

hmm...this thread has taken an interesting turn...now I'm getting confused as to what's going on...did more Christians respond to the thread than non-Christians? :huh: :lol:

 

I need to go back through and try to get everyone straight in my mind... ;)

 

It would be great to see how other non-Christians are applying Circe concepts to their homeschools. I usually don't make it far into the usual Circe threads, so I'm curious.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[Emma S]

I'm not religious, but have been very inspired by the Circe threads. Reading those threads has given me the push to believe that I am good enough to teach my children without having to have the latest curriculum, or to jump around from education theory like a madwomen trying to find one that 'fit's us. I'm an (ex) curriculum junkie. I have tons of the stuff, lots never used. Today I got rid of 5 bags and a box full of it! I've sold some stuff, and am currently sorting out my bookcases which have lots and lots of fiction/non/fiction/living books we have never read. I spent a week reading Dickens to my kids last year which they loved. We had lots of discussions, watched videos, did some notebooking style stuff which they enjoyed so much and still talk about now. I want to do more of this. I'm planning on starting a morning time session with lots of reading/discussion. Picture study, revisiting Dickens, poetry, Shakespeare, living science...Science is something I've really struggled with. I think we've tried almost every curriculum, but nothing sticks. Reading those threads made me realise that I don't have to follow a curriculum, or do experiments that I never have the right supplies for...we can read and watch videos and talk and go to museums, etc. This is a bit of a ramble, but I've taken what I really needed to at this time from those threads, and am making it work for us. I feel inspired and positive about homeschooling again. I'm very grateful to those threads for giving me the push I needed. :)