2E: What college has looked like so far

[Catherine]

I'm posting this in the hope that it may help or be encouraging to some of you with younger students.  My ds is almost 21 and a rising college junior.  He has ADD and is dysgraphic,  and the ADD was not treated for most of his childhood, even as his challenges changed over the years.  We started home schooling when he was 12 and in seventh grade.  According to testing, (which I personally think is only the most fuzzy predictor of anything in the real world) his IQ is 155. 

 

So a bit of background-he had a pretty inconsistent academic performance while he was in school and at home after that.  Despite my best efforts, we did very little writing, as I was inexperienced, and did not hit on a program that really worked well.  He *hated* writing and avoided it assiduously.  Though he is a quick learner, and excellent test-taker, he did not make much effort at times.  After coping with all kinds of behavior challenges, we (he and parents) decided  to do a trial of meds for ADD when he was almost 16.  The stimulants were very effective at treating his behavior challenges, he was much, much happier and more social, and his academic work, for subjects he was motivated to do, improved a bit. 

 

He did not go to college until he was 19-he spent an extra year in HS doing a year long cultural exchange.  The extra growing up that happened as a result of going away, plus just an extra year to mature, have been a good thing.  After returning home, he had a kind of lackluster senior year and looked decidedly unenthusiastic about college.  But now that he's settled and finishing his sophomore year, I can say that he is thriving!  I am soooooo very happy and relieved. 

 

DS has been off ADD meds at times during college.  Right now, he is off them.  His academic performance is definitely better while on them, as he procrastinates less, attends more classes, and is just overall more consistent.  His school has been very willing to accommodate him by providing extra time for tests, which he has not always felt the need for.  Fortunately, he is recognizing that even though he is very quick at understanding, he is still rather slow at DOING, so exams, problem sets, everything really, takes him longer than it does his peers.  Being bright, he has no problem learning and understanding conceptually.  This is fortunate, because work, particularly writing, takes him longer than his peers.  As far as the dysgraphia is concerned, he has used a combination of recording lectures, typing notes during class, and using all class handouts.  That, plus pretty much avoiding courses that require writing papers (his school has a pretty flexible curriculum, few distribution requirements) has gotten him through so far.  And in fact, he is a good writer.  What he cannot do well is write fast, or write well in a timed setting.  So he has yet to take a blue book exam : )

 

I think he has been very fortunate to be at a place where there is a culture of acceptance of LDs and support for students who request extra time.  He was required to provide documentation that he has seen a doctor and actually does have ADD. Once that was established, he only had to notify the professor that he needed extra time and it was granted without difficulty. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you Catherine for taking the time to share your son's experience.  I appreciate this and I am certain others will, too.

 

Best wishes.

[PeterPan]

Thank you for sharing!  It's good for us to hear stories of things turning out well!  That was my big thing I took away from the hs convention last year (and it's that time again!), that even if things DON'T go like we wish, it will STILL be ok.

 

My dd and I are talking about her doing cooking school for two years before going to a university to finish her BA.  That will give her that extra time to mature and become sure of who she is.  That sounds like a very special school.  Is it that one down in Florida?  If she goes to the christian college I went to, apparently their accommodation of SN is very mixed and biased, which really concerns me.  As you say, she's just not going to fast at certain things and needs accommodations.  I was hoping maybe the extra time at home would make her strong to deal with that.  And of course her choice of where to go to finish off her bachelor's might change when she gets there.  We're just giving her options.  

 

So what's your hind site on the writing thing?  What are you doing differently with the next dc?  We've been doing WWS2 and plan to do WWS3.  We throw in other things as well, but right now (like as of this morning) I'm thinking IEW's Advanced Communication series would be a good follow-up.  It's just all screwy in my mind how to get from theory to DOING.  I have her use Inspiration a lot, and I think it's important for them to figure out how to get the ideas in their head organized.  Fortunately she's compliant (within reason), and I've been trying to up the load, at least in a way that is up for her, to push and get her comfortable with cranking it out.  I don't think everything should be cranked out, but definitely they need the ability to do both (slow down and dig in AND crank it out).  But how awesome that it turned out for you even when you couldn't get him to implement all the theories in the moment.  That's good consolation for a Monday morning!   :thumbup: 

[Scarlett]

Great update. Thank you.

[Catherine]

For the youngest, 12 now and with a remarkably similar profile (funny how that happens!) I have used WWE and WWS all the way. What is clearly different about him is that he has much worse dysgraphia, and he, at 12, is actually a decent writer. Though I'm certain if he had to write in a timed situation, that might all break down.

 

What I found with my youngest is that copywork was actually much harder for him than anything else. Even at age 10, he struggled to copy exactly and accurately. I think it must have to do with forming accurate images in his head of written language. He would often substitute different words with similar meanings to the ones he was supposed to copy. In fact he did the same thing, to a lesser extent, with reading.

 

So my assessment is that for my dysgraphic kids, WWE and WWS have been really, really excellent "remediation" if you could call it that. Plus VERY close supervision of all writing to stop him as he made errors and correct them in the moment. I can't even imagine where he'd be right now if he had been in a standard school. WWS we have also done with a good bit of hand-holding, though I'm not the only one who feels the need to do this so I think that hasn't prevented him from benefitting from it.

 

Elizabeth, compliance is key. Eldest, without ADD meds, was never compliant enough for me to teach him much of anything. Even medicated, he wasn't. HSing him was a...challenge. LOL. So if you've got that, you can actually make some progress and it sounds like you are.

 

And thank you again to SWB from the bottom of my heart for WWE and WWS!! They have truly made a big difference for us.

[Catherine]

One more hindsight I left out: if your child has ADD, and you are pretty sure of this, don't put off using medication. We did with him, but not with my youngest, and it has made an unbelievable difference (positive difference). They are different kids, yes, but youngest is so much more mature, compliant, orderly, and socially competent than his brother was. I really have no way of telling how much of this difference is due to youngest never having been in school, and frankly, what is simply differences in personality that were always there.

 

When youngest had testing at the age of 8, the neuropsych told us that studies have shown that unmedicated kids brain development diverges from that of medicated kids, in terms of self-control, impulsivity, and executive function. This statement is one reason I chose to try stimulants for younger ds much sooner and IMO he was spot on. My kids are not particularly impulsive. So their problems have all been in the area of social skills and executive functioning.

[CaitlinC]

Thank you OP, this is very interesting!

 

[PeterPan]

For the youngest, 12 now and with a remarkably similar profile (funny how that happens!) I have used WWE and WWS all the way. What is clearly different about him is that he has much worse dysgraphia, and he, at 12, is actually a decent writer. Though I'm certain if he had to write in a timed situation, that might all break down.

 

What I found with my youngest is that copywork was actually much harder for him than anything else. Even at age 10, he struggled to copy exactly and accurately. I think it must have to do with forming accurate images in his head of written language. He would often substitute different words with similar meanings to the ones he was supposed to copy. In fact he did the same thing, to a lesser extent, with reading.

 

So my assessment is that for my dysgraphic kids, WWE and WWS have been really, really excellent "remediation" if you could call it that. Plus VERY close supervision of all writing to stop him as he made errors and correct them in the moment. I can't even imagine where he'd be right now if he had been in a standard school. WWS we have also done with a good bit of hand-holding, though I'm not the only one who feels the need to do this so I think that hasn't prevented him from benefitting from it.

 

Elizabeth, compliance is key. Eldest, without ADD meds, was never compliant enough for me to teach him much of anything. Even medicated, he wasn't. HSing him was a...challenge. LOL. So if you've got that, you can actually make some progress and it sounds like you are.

 

And thank you again to SWB from the bottom of my heart for WWE and WWS!! They have truly made a big difference for us.

Yes, compliance is much more challenging with my ds than it was with my dd, and I thought my dd was hard, lol.  Ds just takes it to the next level, and yes I'll be open to meds for him after full evals.  We haven't yet done full evals, and I would never medicate without them.  Actually, I'm not sure he'll get an adhd label.  He might, but he doesn't react to caffeine the way my dd does, which makes me think he wouldn't react to stimulant meds in a helpful way either.  That's an interesting warning though, that if you lose the relationship and the ability to reach consensus and get compliance, you're really toast.  It's a learning process for us, that's for sure. In our house we keep the peace by balancing peace and consensus.

 

And yes, WWE is definitely therapy, with its heavy reliance on working memory.  WWS is the only thing I've seen that breaks down the steps of organization SO clearly that my dd could have gotten it and become proficient at it.  Are you planning on doing WWS3?  Have you thought about what you'll follow it up with?  I've been trying to wrap my brain around all that.  If we do WWS3 for 10th, then that leaves her junior and senior year, when we may start DE stuff.  I'm trying to make sure we use 10th to get fully ready for that.  She has the quantity and compliance issues and organization that WWS has covered, but there's this whole issue of persuasive and argumentative writing that isn't really hit in WWS. I've just been trying to sort all that out...

 

One more hindsight I left out: if your child has ADD, and you are pretty sure of this, don't put off using medication. We did with him, but not with my youngest, and it has made an unbelievable difference (positive difference). They are different kids, yes, but youngest is so much more mature, compliant, orderly, and socially competent than his brother was. I really have no way of telling how much of this difference is due to youngest never having been in school, and frankly, what is simply differences in personality that were always there.

 

When youngest had testing at the age of 8, the neuropsych told us that studies have shown that unmedicated kids brain development diverges from that of medicated kids, in terms of self-control, impulsivity, and executive function. This statement is one reason I chose to try stimulants for younger ds much sooner and IMO he was spot on. My kids are not particularly impulsive. So their problems have all been in the area of social skills and executive functioning.

If you do the meds and it makes it easier for them to do the activities that would prompt the improvements in EF, etc., then of course they would have more development.  There wouldn't be funding for studies that showed how much an equal amount of money spent on targeted EF therapy would get you in brain changes.  Not the easy marketing potential of telling people their kid's brain won't develop without the meds.  ;) 

 

I'm not saying I disagree with meds.  I just got that line from a practitioner (not a psych btw, our psych didn't feel that way at all), and that practitioner took it further, saying we were HARMING the dc and doing them an injustice by not giving them meds.   :svengo: 

[FairProspects]

Are there compliance meds I don't know about? Ds is so challenging to teach, but according to the evals there is no ADHD, just sensory and the fact that he really doesn't want to do that which doesn't interest him. There are no meds for that, right? Some days I so wish there were!

[Mukmuk]

It's been so hard for us as well. One step forward, two steps back. Sometimes, I even think we're doing well because there are little pockets of relief amidst a lot resistance, but when I look back a year later, it's a giant meh.

 

I'd like to think that I finally have an answer to ds' sensory seeking issues (my latest latest epiphany). But I have to be very vigilant all the time to make it work.

 

We have no ADHD dx, not even a sensory processing one. But what the OP has written, as well as what others have mentioned, is uncannily similar to ds' presentation. He has tremendous opposition to change or to anything new. The idea of meds is very appealing to me, although dh is vehemently opposed. It's food for thought at the moment.

[PeterPan]

Are there compliance meds I don't know about? Ds is so challenging to teach, but according to the evals there is no ADHD, just sensory and the fact that he really doesn't want to do that which doesn't interest him. There are no meds for that, right? Some days I so wish there were!

Just from watching things, it seems like some kids change labels over the years, meaning what doesn't get a label this year might end up getting him a label when he's 10,12,14.

 

And I think I read somewhere that kids with SPD should automatically get a spectrum label.  I don't know if that's a view widely held, but it's interesting to ponder at least.  Then you kind of have this thought of well if it's spectrum lite or what some people call Right-Brained thinking, then what would that change about how you view his compliance?  If compliance is then not a *moral* issue but a brain structure issue, a flexibility issue, an initiation hump issue.  

 

Some people read my posts and think my dd must be magically and insanely compliant, but they don't live with it, lol.  What it actually is is she *wants* to be compliant (morally, volitionally) but struggles with initiation humps and getting her issues into words.  So, like what happened yesterday, she can *want* to be compliant but can't get the problem into words.  So it looks at that point like she's shutting down and refusing, when it's really her inability to tell you what's wrong.  She has always been like this, and it was only when we did testing that we got scores on things like word retrieval to explain it.  

 

Obviously if others started telling their compliance stories, they'd find more reasons.  You could have the most obvious level of topical compliance.  You've got attention issues (whether they're able to turn their brain on to something they're not engaged with).  That takes MATURITY and TIME.  Seriously.  I'm sure we could think of more, but it's early in the morning, lol.

 

I'm just saying I have tried to separate in my my volition from problems due to the SN.  Volition means she would if she could.  The problems mean she can't without help or shouldn't.  Hairsplitting?  Maybe.  But to me it's what ought to motivate people to bend and work with them.  So someone will say it's volitional.  My dd was 10 turning 11 before I felt like I could really sort out what was volitional and what was due to something beyond what she could make work for whatever reason.  It's very hard, at least to me, to sort out.  I've got christian friends who look at the compromises I make now and say I cowtow too much, and I've got people in the SN community who tell me I should kowtow even more. :svengo:  That's what it feels like in the moment, kowtowing, but I see now how engaged and how *overall* compliant she is.  I think it's *because* we've bent a lot.

 

Whatever, sermon to the choir.   :thumbup1: 

[Tiramisu]

Are there compliance meds I don't know about? Ds is so challenging to teach, but according to the evals there is no ADHD, just sensory and the fact that he really doesn't want to do that which doesn't interest him. There are no meds for that, right? Some days I so wish there were!

 

I believe I've read posts here on the boards about sensory problems being helped by both ADHD meds and antidepressants. One at a time, not both together, but that would probably work, too. Perhaps the ADHD meds help the brain functioning better overall and the AD's hit the neurotransmitters that many be causing the sensory symptoms and make people less reactive. There are probably different theories regarding sensory processing but I remember reading on theory that it's caused by neurotransmitter issue.

[FairProspects]

I've very seriously wondered if antidepressants would help with intensity too, but I haven't done any research on it.

[Tiramisu]

I've very seriously wondered if antidepressants would help with intensity too, but I haven't done any research on it.

 

I think there's a good chance they could help, in that intensity can be a manifestation of anxiety.

[Hikin' Mama]

Thank you for sharing! I love hearing these stories!