Middle school lit for an Aspie

[kbutton]

Sorry this is long, but I need to talk out some ideas for next year before convention.

 

My 2e Aspie will be ten soon and in 5th grade in the fall. He's capable of quite a lot in terms of reading level, but his abstract thinking skills leave a little to be desired.  He can come up with some good insights through discussion, but it's work. His reading comprehension level is about 8th grade, and his ability to pick up vocabulary in context is also quite high. He's not so great at inferencing, but we he does all right if we work on it together. For school-ish reading, he enjoys reading at a variety of levels if the book is interesting to him. He's loved Sign of the Beaver, Holes, Black Beauty, Black Stallion, Carry on Mr. Bowditch, Bert Breen's Barn, Caddie Woodlawn, Across Five Aprils, Brady.

 

Written work of any kind takes a long time with my son. I need some help trying to find a way to discuss books (probably only really good discussions for a couple of books each year) that won't occupy us FOREVER. He likes graphic organizers, but it's so time-consuming. I'd rather have some great prompts for discussion and some tips for literary elements. No writing about books yet. He's just not ready. We could probably handle some book projects--I knew a teacher that asked kids to choose two or three creative ways to represent a book, such as with character webs, character sketches, finding physical objects that represent themes from the book, etc. (all oral). My remembrance of her requirements is sketchy, but the kids enjoyed it, and I think I could come up with a rubric (feel free to give me ideas on that).

 

Everything I am finding seems very academic, or it incorporates grammar, vocabulary, blah, blah, blah. The academic stuff is just not in our reach. The combined stuff is just too much. We separate our subjects for efficiency (yeah, that may be counterintuitive, but it works MUCH BETTER for us). Otherwise, it's too fiddly, and if we have a bad day with grammar (or writing, or vocabulary, or history), then it spoils everything. I was thinking that maybe stuff from Center for Lit (Adam Andrews) looked promising, but then I read the sample essay that an 11 y.o. wrote about a Mark Twain book. I can't imagine getting that from my son for years. We do not want failure staring at us out of the gate.

 

We've covered some stuff about plots, characterization, dialog, etc. using the highest level of The Reader's Handbook, but I want a little more hand-holding--the book is excellent, but my son wants to do everything for every book, and it can take an hour just to do one idea, lol! For instance, one activity is to examine a character through the way they interact with other characters. My son loved doing this (and it was great for his inferencing skills), but it took about an hour to do just a few pages. We have a lot of bad days here where we get behind, so I don't have extra time for stuff that is time-consuming. I am a "do the next thing" kind of girl out of necessity with this child, and he is a "Competent Carl" sort. I want to push him in his thinking but not require academic writing in this subject for now. We're trying to tackle writing in other subjects that require less reflection.

 

I've looked at Bravewriter, and it's baffling to me. Truly. I just don't get it. I hated dissecting books in school. I was never really shown how to do it properly, just told to produce it, and I am way too concise to please a lit professor no matter what I have to say. Most teachers approached literature in one of two ways--"What does it mean to you" OR "let me eviscerate this author's worldview." I don't want to do either one with my son.

 

I think my son might enjoy short stories too, so maybe we could do what started to do with books with some short stories instead, but I don't know what kind of an anthology to get for a middle schooler. That would allow us to step into some analysis, but it won't take forever to look at each piece. Maybe start with The Book of Virtues?

 

I think I'm learning toward stuff from Royal Fireworks Press (If the Wolf were and Octopus), but I am not sure about that. I love the questions in MCT's annotated books, but Wind in Willows was a flop here. I haven't worked up the courage to try a different book--they are so pricey. I am thinking of looking up some free lit guides online and then using those as a starting point. I may also throw in towel, do a book like Figuratively Speaking, MCT poetry, and read a play or short story or two. The rest of our lit may just be read alouds for fun. Is that bad? Is that good? Is that a cop-out? I don't want to kick the can down the road, but I don't mind being in a holding pattern until we get some preliminary writing skills in place. I just want that holding pattern to be a good one.

[nerdybird]

My oldest is a spectrum kid. He is highly auditory and doesn't read much on his own unless it is a graphic novel. Maybe those would work for your son? DS1 is 10, 11 in the fall. Going into 5th if you go by traditional public school standards. I haven't even started formal writing or grammar with him. He is currently struggling to finish the last bit of 2nd grade level spelling from his spelling curriculum. It's not that he can't spell, or doesn't remember the rules...he just gets overwhelmed. Or he will get stuck on certain concepts and I will have to sit next to him and help him through the issue.

 

No way he is going to write an essay analyzing the finer points of a novel next year. Heck, even paragraphs are a stretch for him at the moment. Grammar? Starting that next year, but I know it will be a sloooooow process for him. That's why I have decided to put off Logic stage until he is 12 or 13 or until my DD is ready to move onto that level. When she isn't being a sassypants, she is quite helpful to have around and he seems to do better when they are working on the same things.

 

I wouldn't push a kid to move onto the Logic stage until he is ready and you are confident that he is ready. Otherwise, it's just heartbreak all around, imo.

 

Here is a short list of graphic novels based on classics DS1 has recently read:

• Frankenstein
• Dracula
• Edgar Allan Poe
• A Wrinkle in Time
• Coraline
• Manga Macbeth

He also listens to audiobooks. He likes audiobooks and audio dramas. Good ways to get him into books he can't read yet, plants the seeds for later though. ;)

 

The graphic novels can make more challenging works less daunting. They seem to help DS1 identify with the characters. Then if/when we read the book or listen to the audio version, he gets much more out of it than he does if he hasn't read a graphic version of it first.

 

We use "Classic Starts" versions of the classic books when we are ready to read them aloud. They are kid friendly and much less verbose than the actual books. Some parents say that it is not the same as reading the actual book, but Classic Starts are much more approachable with my kids than the real books.

 

I stop and have DS1 do narrations every so often if the book is part of our curriculum (AO). If the book is not part of the curriculum and we are reading for the heck of it, then we will trade off, each of us reading a chapter. I have him write paragraphs here and there. Sometimes he will write his own stories about the characters, especially if he thinks that a character did not have the proper reaction or if he thinks that the story was boring, didn't like the ending, stuff like that.

 

What is your son interested in? Maybe you should plan on doing a relaxed year, focus on reading for fun and also on doing some copywork and narrations based on what you are reading. DS1 loves Star Wars, Clone Wars, Ninjago, guitars/music and military vehicles/aircraft. I use his Star Wars books to test his information retention and also to pull vocabulary words from. I used the Ninjago books for narrations and to explain things like plot, character development, conflict, parts of a story, etc. I've used the more complicated books about music and military vehicles to illustrate sentence structure and to occasionally pull copywork passages from.

 

He also writes fan fictions based around characters and plots from his Star Wars and Clone Wars books. They are terrible as far stories go, but he loves to share them with us. I count it as progress towards actual writing ie short stories and essays.

 

Hope this helps. :)

[Jennifer-72]

Have you looked at some of the guides at litwits? http://www.litwitsworkshops.com/

 

They used to have more titles available, but looks like they are currently revising them.

[kbutton]

nerdybird, he does like graphic novels, though I haven't done a lot of those at this point. He also LOVES audio books. They calm him down like nothing else, though he never seems to make the connection, lol! He's been listening to them since he was a toddler. Audio dramas are a good idea I hadn't thought about yet. Do you get them from the library?

 

It really helps to see where someone else with similar challenges is at. I have been considering narration in other subjects. We didn't start with homeschooling, so they weren't really a part of our setup. My little one will start doing them too, so maybe we can roll them into literature.

[kbutton]

I've never seen litwits. That's the most appealing program I've seen in some time. I will look at it more thoroughly. Thanks!

[nerdybird]

nerdybird, he does like graphic novels, though I haven't done a lot of those at this point. He also LOVES audio books. They calm him down like nothing else, though he never seems to make the connection, lol! He's been listening to them since he was a toddler. Audio dramas are a good idea I hadn't thought about yet. Do you get them from the library?

 

It really helps to see where someone else with similar challenges is at. I have been considering narration in other subjects. We didn't start with homeschooling, so they weren't really a part of our setup. My little one will start doing them too, so maybe we can roll them into literature.

 

Graphic novels have worked really well for us. A lot of classics have been rewritten as graphic novels. Quality can be an issue though. DH usually previews any graphic novels before DS1 reads them.

 

Our typical set up goes something like this:

1. We listen to the audio version together.
2. DS1 reads along in a graphic version (if available)
3. When we are through with the audio version, I read aloud from the book (Classic Starts, or child-friendly version)
4. I will have him write journal entries after each chapter. Thoughts, opinions, observations. I don't require complete sentences and I allow him to draw and make lists.
5. He does narrations periodically. (every few chapters, after important events)
6. We discuss his journal entries every so often. Usually, I will go through them about 1x per week and see if he's paying attention, what is he struggling to understand, is he processing the story, etc.
7. When we are finished with the book, we are finished with it. No backtracking, no talking it to death, no book reports, no artsy fartsy stuff or lap-booking. We are done. :D

********

There are several radio dramas on YouTube. Try searching for "Lux Radio Theater", "Mercury Theater", and "NBC University Theatre". You can also purchase these on CD from Old Time Radio sites. I have not done this personally. These are all radio dramas from US circa 1930s-1950s. Quality varies and videos do sometimes get pulled from YouTube due to copyright disputes, even though no one holds the copyrights to most of these sources since they are public domain in the US.

 

You can actually download some of them for free through archive.org but it is a serious pain in the foot, so to say, and not worth it when you can listen on YouTube or purchase the CDs for like 1.99 apiece. Some libraries also carry Old Time Radio CDs. They are usually listed under "OTR Productions" or something like that.

 

BBC audio dramas are available for purchase on Amazon. They are also available through WorldCAT and/or library services where I live. DS1 and DH enjoy the Doctor Who audio dramas; I am not a big fan. BBC's Lord of the Rings audio drama is really good though. (Note: BBC and Amazon call these "radio dramas" or "dramatizations".)

[PeterPan]

I'm going to go look at that lit wits, because clearly I'm going to need more tools in my toolbag for ds.  I'm kind of surprised you're eschewing graphic organizers, when he likes them so much.  You might shift this and embrace them, looking instead for graphic organizers to guide him into the writing, analysis, and narrations you're wanting.  Graphic organizers are visual outlining, and outlining is a typical skill for 5th grade.  If he's VSL, he might be attracted to graphic organizers as a way of organizing his thinking.  The key would just be to go more sophisticated to hit your goals.

 

Also, I don't know if this has been said or is really obvious, but sometimes a person needs to see something a LOT of times before the connections make sense.  For instance, I've seen Phantom a fair number of times, but it was only with my last viewing that I finally figured out that he was in love with her.  I just thought he was weird, kwim?  Ok, you don't know what I mean.  Or recently I got into Les Mis, and I couldn't understand Javert and the songs he sing.  Someone with a phd tried to explain it to me, and STILL it didn't make sense.  After enough versions and repetition, it finally clicked.  

 

I've been told that's pretty common, that someone might need to see/read something multiple multiple times (3,4,5,6) to make connections.  We tend to want to rush and have someone read a book and BAM get it.  You might see what happens if you go at the same book multiple ways over time.  Like maybe don't even have a one year plan but a multi-year vision.  (I want him to understand the character motivations in Jane Eyre, so this year we'll read a version and watch two movies.  Next year we'll go to a high school performance of it and read the book again.  Then in brit lit we'll read it again.)  Kwim?  

 

I don't know.  I think it's bizarre to take someone with that kind of reading level and put them in graphic novels.  He needs to continue to read and he needs to read broadly.  He needs to discuss them with someone who actually knows enough about them to give him hints on what he could notice so that he can go back again and try to notice them.  You might find that listening to audiobooks is his way of attempting to flesh out meaning for what is just print on a page otherwise.  You might listen to multiple versions and compare.  I've mentioned to someone that when I watch a movie (or read a book, or listen to an audiobook) it's new every time for me.  I literally don't remember any of the details, so I can watch it over and over, getting something new each time.  If that isn't your own brain experience, it might not occur to you that someone else might be that way.  

 

You might try reading books across a concept or theme that you're wanting to analyze so he can make connections, rather than asking him to relate to something in isolation.  So for instance if you want him to see the perseverance in a novel, pick 3 that all have it and let him make the connections.  

 

Whatever, just some ideas.

[PeterPan]

Have you looked at some of the guides at litwits? http://www.litwitsworkshops.com/

 

They used to have more titles available, but looks like they are currently revising them.

Oh my goodness, those are AWESOME!!!!!

 

 

I've never seen litwits. That's the most appealing program I've seen in some time. I will look at it more thoroughly. Thanks!

:iagree:   And you know, the comments I gave are really the next level up, when you're more like junior high, high school, and thinking about books, making connections.  While they're still in the hands-on stage, that Lit Wit stuff looks AMAZING, exactly what they should be doing.  Wow are we going to be sinking some money into them!  My ds is definitely a kinesthetic learner, and he would go BANANAS for that!  It's sort of the fun mom you want to be and don't always have the energy to think up for yourself.  :D

[kbutton]

Oh my goodness, those are AWESOME!!!!!

 

 

:iagree:   And you know, the comments I gave are really the next level up, when you're more like junior high, high school, and thinking about books, making connections.  While they're still in the hands-on stage, that Lit Wit stuff looks AMAZING, exactly what they should be doing.  Wow are we going to be sinking some money into them!  My ds is definitely a kinesthetic learner, and he would go BANANAS for that!  It's sort of the fun mom you want to be and don't always have the energy to think up for yourself.   :D

 

I'll keep that in mind about the comments. I am not really sure WHERE I should be with literature--no one even agrees about the grade level of books. Then, add in that you see samples of what kids are doing to analyze literatures, and it's all over the map.

 

[kbutton]

I'm kind of surprised you're eschewing graphic organizers, when he likes them so much.  You might shift this and embrace them, looking instead for graphic organizers to guide him into the writing, analysis, and narrations you're wanting.  Graphic organizers are visual outlining, and outlining is a typical skill for 5th grade. The key would just be to go more sophisticated to hit your goals.

 

I am not sure what you mean by more sophisticated (maybe more detailed or more levels to the organization?). I am not eschewing them--they take forever and forever. Everything takes forever and forever with this child. It's exhausting. If we start making a list about something specific, such as analyzing a character by making inferences about what others say about them, it can take him an hour to get through one page of the novel. Then, he wants to keep going...and that's just one aspect of a novel. In school, everything had kind of a short cut to keep things moving, and I am not sure how to recreate that while not circumventing the process. But in school, he would let everyone else discuss, and he'd have his head under the desk playing with his shoes (but would hear every word). It's like everything is all or nothing, and I need some fences to keep the kid in the pasture, but some signal that he's eaten all the grass and it's time to move on to something else.

 

Also, I don't know if this has been said or is really obvious, but sometimes a person needs to see something a LOT of times before the connections make sense.  

 

This is hit and miss. He can make connections through discussion, but not on his own (I have to ask really leading questions). I don't find this a huge problem, but it is a problem when we he can't talk it back to me or write down what we just said. He literally wants me to write the sentences for him. Now part of this is that he has a great auditory verbal memory, so he's always trying to tape record and get it just right like the way I said it. Or, if I say that I want him to use his own words, he can't get mine all the way out of his head. He sometimes randomly remembers things from books (or movies or conversations) nearly verbatim, and he's not always aware he even stored it to start with.

 

I've been told that's pretty common, that someone might need to see/read something multiple multiple times (3,4,5,6) to make connections.  We tend to want to rush and have someone read a book and BAM get it.  You might see what happens if you go at the same book multiple ways over time.  Like maybe don't even have a one year plan but a multi-year vision.  (I want him to understand the character motivations in Jane Eyre, so this year we'll read a version and watch two movies.  Next year we'll go to a high school performance of it and read the book again.  Then in brit lit we'll read it again.)  Kwim?  

 

I like this idea, but I am not sure how to keep up the enthusiasm. I am also hoping to choose easier/shorter books to learn the mechanics of literary devices, plot sketches, etc. It's just that if we start to discuss something like this, he wants to stay on it all day. Ideally, if he can get the basics down, I would probably choose two or three types of analysis for each book from among several rather than looking at all angles in every book every time. It would be easier if a book said to do x and y for this book--he would respond better to that. Otherwise, it's a free for all, and we just don't have time.

 

I don't know.  I think it's bizarre to take someone with that kind of reading level and put them in graphic novels.  He needs to continue to read and he needs to read broadly.  He needs to discuss them with someone who actually knows enough about them to give him hints on what he could notice so that he can go back again and try to notice them.  I think this is the crux, but I don't know how to have that kind of time--I need a shortcut. OTOH, I don't want a shortcut because I KNOW that a person can learn to pick up on these things, and I don't want to give him the impression that he can't understand a book without a shortcut. (You are seeing "paralysis by analysis" in action here, lol, but putting this in writing clarifies some of what I am worried about and wasn't realizing. You must be asking the right questions.) You might find that listening to audiobooks is his way of attempting to flesh out meaning for what is just print on a page otherwise. It might be, but I suspect he just LOVES listening. He listens to everything and always has. He notices every noise in the universe and responds to it--music, cars outside, birds, you name it (and he can reproduce some amazing sounds--he sounds like the special effects track to a movie sometimes). He made up a game when he was a baby that was like Simon only with his voice. The game always ended when I couldn't keep up. :-) You might listen to multiple versions and compare.  I've mentioned to someone that when I watch a movie (or read a book, or listen to an audiobook) it's new every time for me.  I literally don't remember any of the details, so I can watch it over and over, getting something new each time.  If that isn't your own brain experience, it might not occur to you that someone else might be that way. I've always re-read books. I am not a linear thinker, so going through something several times as different layers of the puzzle come together is very beneficial for me. I used to remember details better than I do now, but I get more "big picture" all the time, and the details bounce off me if they don't have an immediate hook on which I can stick them. He's a re-reader too. Unless a book took too much out of him the first time, he'll read it again and again.

 

You might try reading books across a concept or theme that you're wanting to analyze so he can make connections, rather than asking him to relate to something in isolation.  So for instance if you want him to see the perseverance in a novel, pick 3 that all have it and let him make the connections.  This is a really good idea.

 

Whatever, just some ideas.

 

I may have more comments later, but I really appreciate your questions and the chance to think things through "out loud." This is my preferred method of troubleshooting. :-) Do you know of any short story anthologies for middle schoolers that are meaty? I bet if I could scale these things down to short story length, it would be more doable, and then I could blow it back up again when the process/terminology/mechanics of things start to become more automatic. What do you think of that idea?

 

[PeterPan]

I'll keep that in mind about the comments. I am not really sure WHERE I should be with literature--no one even agrees about the grade level of books. Then, add in that you see samples of what kids are doing to analyze literatures, and it's all over the map.

 

What do you mean?  I've never seen this.  What are you seeing?  WTM in 4th is still talking book narrations.  If he's doing anything even CLOSE to a book narration, he's more than nailing that.  My dd spat on narrations after a while and said if I wanted to know go read it myself.   :lol:  She needed more creative stuff to engage her.  The Mrs. Renz book projects worked well with her.  I could totally see that LitWit stuff working with ds.  I don't think there's just one way to interact with books, kwim?  Given how exceptionally well your ds is reading, I think you ought to give some leeway to his taste and inner drive.

[PeterPan]

I may have more comments later, but I really appreciate your questions and the chance to think things through "out loud." This is my preferred method of troubleshooting. :-) Do you know of any short story anthologies for middle schoolers that are meaty? I bet if I could scale these things down to short story length, it would be more doable, and then I could blow it back up again when the process/terminology/mechanics of things start to become more automatic. What do you think of that idea?

 

Some people use drama for this purpose.  Plays tend to be shorter.  (The suggestion is totally plagiarized and is not something I've done myself.)

[kbutton]

What do you mean?  I've never seen this.  What are you seeing?  WTM in 4th is still talking book narrations.  If he's doing anything even CLOSE to a book narration, he's more than nailing that.  My dd spat on narrations after a while and said if I wanted to know go read it myself.   :lol:  She needed more creative stuff to engage her.  The Mrs. Renz book projects worked well with her.  I could totally see that LitWit stuff working with ds.  I don't think there's just one way to interact with books, kwim?  Given how exceptionally well your ds is reading, I think you ought to give some leeway to his taste and inner drive.

 

Curriculum samples that label ages. I don't know if the kids are able to come up with the stuff on their own, or if they are writing these little analysis papers after extensive discussion. I just know to produce the same thing from mine, we'd be there for a week.