Were you Unimpressed by AOPS?

[Gil]

Is there anyone who has tried and been unimpressed by AOPS books? I'd like to hear tales from the other side.

I'm not talking about Beast Academy, but the books PreAlgebra-Calculus.

 

I am looking to use AOPS from Intro to Algebra forward but not right away. Probably in about 2 - 3 years.

[8filltheheart]

Impressed? that is not a word I would use to describe my opinion of AoPS. Best math curriculum for understanding the theory behind mathematical concepts and best proof-based curriculum accessible to homeschoolers? Yes.

 

Does that mean that I am an AoPS only advocate? No. I have written numerous posts on our AoPS experience as a family. My ds absolutely LOVED AoPS. He loved the challenge. He loves developing proofs. He loves deriving everything he does. (He does this all the time with physics as well. He plans on pursuing a phD in physics.) AoPS was a huge blessing for him b/c it stimulated his way of thinking and he now has an incredibly strong base for his math and physics classes.

 

My dd, otoh, who is equally strong in math but does not like math and plans on pursuing linguistics, does not have the time nor the desire to put that much time and effort into math. SHe would rather spend her time absorbed in analyzing difficult poetry or mastering multiple languages. AoPS is over the top for her needs.

 

All students do not need the level of mathematical understanding that AoPS provides. It is also a very time consuming approach. But for kids that love math and especially for kids that love theory, AoPS is perfect for them.

[wapiti]

Could you explain what you mean by "unimpressed"?  Do you mean depth and challenge level or are you referring to other aspects?  Instruction, review, presentation, etc.?

 

There are a number of threads discussing the pros and cons of AoPS that you should search for, including discussions about using it with younger kids.  It is a unique program.  Like any curriculum, it is a teaching tool which may or may not fit a particular situation.

 

I can't speak to the higher levels, but the prealgebra text (which I've been through with three kids now) opened up a whole new world to me.  You might read this presentation on problem solving if you haven't already; it may help elucidate the learning philosophy behind AoPS.

[AK_Mom4]

I wouldn't use the term "unimpressed", but we did not get as excited about it here as others on the boards have.  DD12 thought AOPS was "fine", but prefers a more straight-forward style.   She understands math concepts easily and quickly and gets no enjoyment from working harder problems.  Math is something she is very good at, but just wants to "get it done" so she can move on to more interesting things (ponies and maps mostly).

 

I found AOPS interesting and would have enjoyed it had it been an option when I was a kid.  Just a difference in personal preferences, I think.

[redsquirrel]

What were you hoping for? Do you have any specific criticisms of the books?

 

What is it you are looking for? AoPS isn't the right math program for everyone, even some very strong math students.

 

I don't know if I would call myself "impressed" with AoPS, but I am very glad we decided to use it. The pre-A program was the first time my son was truly challenged by a math program. It was a tremendous educational experience. I think it made him a better student in all subjects, because he had to learn how to cope with real challenge. He was a kid who never had to work at anything, it just came to him with no effort. Well, with AoPS he had to learn to struggle and not give up. It also helped him to see how much more he was capable of. With the Algebra program he has really taken off and become a full partner in his own education.

 

He went from a kid who I knew was good at math, but didn't particularly like it, to a kid who attends a math club.

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

I don't think AOPS lives up to the hype that it is THE ONLY PROGRAM IN THE WORLD CHALLENGING ENOUGH FOR GIFTED STUDENTS!!!!!!!!!!! that some of its more enthusiastic proponents act like. Yes, it is AN excellent program for gifted students, but so are others like Singapore's DM & NEM, Elements of Mathematics/IMACS, etc. Your student does not need AOPS in order to be successfully challenged.

 

I spent an hour last fall looking through a friend's copies of the AOPS pre-algebra and intro to algebra books and it reinforced my belief that my oldest would HATE the program. She prefers more direct instruction rather than the "discovery" approach.

[tmstranger]

I hate to barge in...I have a question...

 

I am very new to hs.  I am starting next fall with my 2nd grader and 5th grader. 

 

My current 4th grader is in a G/T 5th grade math class taking middle school level math.  This is part of the reason that I'm bringing him home next year.  There will be no "regular" math instruction for him and he is expected to self-pace some work that is given to him one day a week and expected to last throughout the week. 

 

He is a math whiz and getting all 100% on his current tests, so I feel like he'll be bored next year waiting for a "one day a week" class. He won't self-pace...he'll finish it in 1-2 days.

 

ANYWAY, I had not heard of AoPS, but one of my biggest challenges in choosing curriculum for him has been finding a good math program to work for him. 

 

I'm a little confused by their website.  Can I just buy the books/answer key and teach him at home?  or does he need to sign up for one of their online classes? 

 

Sorry if that's a silly question...I am just confused by their site.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[wapiti]

Can I just buy the books/answer key and teach him at home?  or does he need to sign up for one of their online classes? 

 

Sorry if that's a silly question...I am just confused by their site.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, you can absolutely just use the books and solutions, without the on-line classes.

 

Note that Prealgebra and the first half of Intro to Algebra also have free on-line videos corresponding to the texts and there is a free on-line problem-solving practice program called Alcumus.

[Aloha2U]

Without getting into details, does it count that I was "unimpressed" with whom they chose to quote within their Prealgebra textbook, which raised some red flags for me? 

[Crimson Wife]

Also, IIRC the OP has his kids using MM. Going from MM into AOPS might be a bit of a shock in terms of challenge levels. My advice to the OP would be to first work through Singapore's Challenging Word Problems and Intensive Practice books at the 4th through 6th grade levels as a way of practicing the problem solving skills using material that is familiar from MM rather than new.

[wapiti]

Without getting into details, does it count that I was "unimpressed" with whom they chose to quote within their Prealgebra textbook, which raised some red flags for me? 

 

Are you referring to the joke quotes at the beginning of chapters, by mathematicians and comedians (and Mickey Mouse)?  It's hard to imagine what could constitute a "red flag" in the context of AoPS.

[tmstranger]

Yes, you can absolutely just use the books and solutions, without the on-line classes.

 

Note that Prealgebra and the first half of Intro to Algebra also have free on-line videos corresponding to the texts and there is a free on-line problem-solving practice program called Alcumus.

 

Thank you!

[...................]

We just got overwhelmed by the process.  I think, when a child is interested to figure out a solution to a problem on his or her own, through the process of analytic and discovery, the process might be difficult at times, but worth it.  But if the parents are pushing the child through, and neither one of them enjoy or desire to go trough the process of discovery based analytic learning, it can be a real challenge to use something like AOPS.  

 

I personally tried it and decided to stick with Saxon because I know how to teach Saxon.  When we are curious about the WHY of math, we just look it up on YouTube and get a video from Khan, or better yet Numberphile or even ViHart or one of those math geniuses who use pictures to explain why algorithms work.  

 

We considered picking up AOPS again this summer but decided against it, as the Saxon is going really well and we don't mind just looking stuff up on YouTube.

[lewelma]

For the right child there is nothing else even remotely the same. However, it really depends on the child. My younger is using SM Discovering Mathematics and the fit is much better than AoPS.

 

I will say that of all the AoPS books I have seen, the preA is my least favorite, so don't judge the series by just the first book.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Haiku]

I was unimpressed. I borrowed the pre-a book and spent some time working through it and working with the online components. I gave it to my dd (who was 11 at the time) who is mathy and likes math and asked her to browse through it.

 

Neither of us liked it at all. I found it to be very wordy and inefficient. I felt like there was a lot of yapping to get to a small point. My dd was driven mad by it. She hated the wordiness. It's the same reason she strongly disliked Life of Fred. And this is a child who love love loves to read and writes stories, poems, and 5-paragraph essays for fun. She loves language and hated the style of AOPS.

 

I think AOPS would be a good math program for a very, very specific type of student: one who is very good at math, one who really likes math, and one who can stomach the verbosity. As a general "gifted math program," however, I think it is a poor fit.

[Jilly]

It was a terrible fit for my oldest son who is quite gifted in math. The program did nothing for him but slow him down and frustrate him. I know it is a great program and works for many talented kids. The problem I have with it is that so many people believe AoPS is a must for any child gifted or highly interested in math. I don't agree with that, and it irks me that so many do. 

[madteaparty]

Neither I nor my kid were enamored of the Beast Academy. I cannot tell why exactly. I've no experience with AOPS but will give it a whirl when the time comes.

[quark]

I am very impressed by the math in the AoPS books but for DS, it was a love-hate relationship from the beginning due to the same reason that others have mentioned...why on earth can't they get to the point? lol. This is the kid who loves reading and reading between the lines to discover clues to deeper meaning too. And a kid who started sobbing at 7+ because many sections of the Hands On Equations program were so boringly too easy. That was the time HoE first became popular and so many others were gushing in their praise of the program.

 

Then, he did an AoPS class recently that really stretched and frustrated him no end and now, curiously, he really wants to try another AoPS class! So, just maybe, if the book alone doesn't work out for someone, pairing it with an online class will but I agree with everyone who thinks that it depends so much on the kid and that this is not a hill to die on. There are so many wonderful, engaging math books out there and with a little bit of research and legwork and an open mind, an interested and involved parent should be able to find a good fit. There are the affordably-priced Dover publications for higher math, and the Gelfand books too, for example.

 

I also think that AoPS has value as a supplement and not merely as a core program. So even if it doesn't work out as a core, don't write it off as a supplement. That's mostly how we've been using it prior to the class he took earlier this year. I.e. just pulling out the books for the review and challenge problems. This summer will be the first time that we try it out as a core.

[Targhee]

Without getting into details, does it count that I was "unimpressed" with whom they chose to quote within their Prealgebra textbook, which raised some red flags for me?

Whom, in particular, did they quote that was so objectionable?

[lewelma]

he really wants to try another AoPS class!

 

Which one?  It would be super fun to have them together again.  I think ds will be doing the AIME prep class in the autumn, but I need to check out the level of the material.

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I wish there were more problems in it. I wish it included tests, because I need to have them for a portfolio in my state. We jump through a lot of the words. It is not some panacea for math, but I haven't found much of anything else out there that teaches kids to really understand and think. Just listening to the information is not enough, IMO. I don't want passive learning for my son. I want him to have to really work with the material. It is pretty good at that.

 

Mainly, it pulls the weight of teaching mathematics of my shoulders. There was no Beast Academy when my son was younger. It was just me and a whole lot of criticism that I was teaching "weird math." AoPS is weird math in the same way, so it helps a lot there. This is one of the big selling points for me. That and the over coming if perfectionism. It isn't that the program is impressive, just that it works for the specific goals of our house.

 

Once you figure out your goals, then you might be able to decide a bit better if it works for your household.

[crazyforlatin]

I agree with Crimson Wife that it would be less shocking going from MM to AoPS if a student has used CWP 4-6. The word problems are easier in Pre-A than in SM. Also, if you add in Zaccaro's Problem-Solving Genius, you'll also find Pre-A to be more manageable as the problems are very similar and slightly easier.

 

AOPS Pre-A does give you more information than is required, perhaps, but it was one way for me to see if DD did receive a good foundation in math and take an extra year to work on more difficult problems before jumping into algebra. Also, if I hired a math tutor, I would expect lots of discussion, so when you look through Pre-A and conclude it's just too wordy, you're really getting a tutor for the price of 30 minutes.

[regentrude]

 Also, if I hired a math tutor, I would expect lots of discussion, so when you look through Pre-A and conclude it's just too wordy, you're really getting a tutor for the price of 30 minutes.

 

The complaint that AoPS is wordy comes up often, but one should keep in mind that the books are designed to be used without a teacher, and that the books thus need to contain every word of explanation a good teacher would say when teaching the lesson.

 

[Arcadia]

Textbooks are either boring or not boring to me. I would be impressed with a work of art but not textbooks.

The books are self teaching which is nice for my boys and the solution manuals are clear.

I think the AoPS books are for any kid that likes the style of presentation. I don't think AoPS meant for their books to be for gifted children. If a publisher says that their books are targeted at gifted kids, it would turn me off buying.

My hubby is impressed though because it was less flowery and cluttered than the current public school math textbooks we looked at. It is plain vanilla like the textbooks hubby and I are used to.

[stupidusername]

We have been using AoPS preAlgebra for three days. So far, it has been pretty rough going. It's quite different from what we're used to (Saxon). We are trying to hang in there. 

[Dana]

The complaint that AoPS is wordy comes up often, but one should keep in mind that the books are designed to be used without a teacher, and that the books thus need to contain every word of explanation a good teacher would say when teaching the lesson.

And typically when I've paused the videos or made a comment about a problem in the text to my son, they make the same comment right after we start back :D. For me, that's the mark of a solid program!

 

I've only seen a couple of things I dislike so far...and they're very minor.

[kiana]

It's absolutely not a necessity. Math students have learned math for many years without it.

 

But I do think that it's worth *trying* for most students who are either strong in math or interested in math. Obviously you wouldn't keep using it if you disliked it, the kid disliked it, or it wasn't working.

 

Furthermore, I think the article on "the calculus trap" has some very good advice, especially for children who are very, very young when doing algebra 1. Even if not using AOPS books, filling in additional topics (stats, number theory, combinatorics, graph theory, non-euclidean geometry, math history, abstract algebra, topology (where else can you find out about the sandwich theorem and the hairy ball theorem?), game theory, voting theory, and many others) from other young-person friendly books rather than keeping on the track through engineering math broadens and enriches topics, while keeping math fresher in the brain for going to university. There are many other paths to enrichment than AOPS. Once a student has gotten some basic algebra down, too, math enrichment can be tailored to their interests -- someone who's going into the social sciences might find stats and game theory exceptionally interesting.

[stupidusername]

we have been using AoPS for about a week now. At this point, based on what I have seen in Chapter 1 of the pre-Algebra book, I am probably not going to make AoPS our primary textbook. I think the "drill and kill" technique that Saxon uses is highly effective and I don't want to give it up. 

 

A few years ago, AoPS author Richard Rusczyk spoke at a girls' math competition:

http://mathprize.atfoundation.org/archive/2009/Rusczyk_Problem_Solving_Presentation_at_Math_Prize_for_Girls_2009.pdf

 

In the speech, he pooh-poohed people who get SAT math scores of 800 and AP Calculus BC scores of 5.  Basically, he feels that the SAT math and AP Calculus tests are really easy, and that mathematically-gifted students should aim higher.

 

I get that. For someone with a true gift for math the SAT math test is easy. But the truth is, I'd be happy if my son (who is solid at math but not a math whiz) gets an 800 on the SAT math and a 5 on the AP Calculus BC test. 

 

Therefore, we are going to continue using Saxon -- but we are going to supplement Saxon with AoPS. Thus, my son will get mastery of the basics from Saxon and exposure to the more advanced problem-solving methodology of AoPS. Should his interest and/or aptitude in math increase, we can always move more fully to AoPS at a later date.

 

 

 

 

 

[mirabillis]

 

Therefore, we are going to continue using Saxon -- but we are going to supplement Saxon with AoPS. Thus, my son will get mastery of the basics from Saxon and exposure to the more advanced problem-solving methodology of AoPS. Should his interest and/or aptitude in math increase, we can always move more fully to AoPS at a later date.

 

This is what I'm thinking. While he hated AoPs, he did love the videos. And it sure was challenging. Doesn't challenging = learning?

 

We jumped ship after 2 weeks of AoPs Pre-A to Dolciani Pre-A and love it. He's back to whizzing through math and loving it. I still haven't sold back AoPs Pre-A - I'm still inclined to hang onto it, thinking maybe... in the future? Maybe... as a supplement?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

This is what I'm thinking. While he hated AoPs, he did love the videos. And it sure was challenging. Doesn't challenging = learning?

 

We jumped ship after 2 weeks of AoPs Pre-A to Dolciani Pre-A and love it. He's back to whizzing through math and loving it. I still haven't sold back AoPs Pre-A - I'm still inclined to hang onto it, thinking maybe... in the future? Maybe... as a supplement?

 

This is beyond a doubt a trade-off we've made. It's one I think about from time to time. She would be much further along in math had we not chosen AoPS. (Further ahead in what way? hmm....certainly further ahead on a transcript....) She would also be further along if we didn't do all the challenge problems....they are just too much fun for our own good, I guess.

 

It bothers me sometimes, but not enough to change for the sake of moving through the math levels more quickly...

 

....just random thoughts because they've been on my mind lately.....

 

So count us among the impressed...slowly plodding along while enjoying the journey... ;)