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Can we discuss apathetic writers and college prep?


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Ds is a remedial writer and quite apathetic about subjects in which he has no interest. He's making progress and I'm using ideas from my freshman composition classes to help him. But his progress is slow - he has no learning disabilities that would hinder him, it's more personality. I'm not interested in changing how I discipline him about it either (insert long life story). 

 

I'm considering signing him up for the remedial college writing class his senior year if his writing doesn't improve greatly over next year - he'll be a junior next year. 

 

He's most likely headed toward a state school, but I'm concerned about writing pace. One of the things that has saved me this year in my freshman year of college is the ability to pound out a decent paper in a short time. 

 

I think his excellent grasp of logic and decent grammar skills will help him, but I can see him getting quickly overwhelmed if he doesn't learn to work quickly. 

 

So how do you work with slow writers without setting aside everything else? We have some sort of writing project going on at all times. He types all of his papers and I give specific feedback usually the day he writes it. I'm also started having him read my papers to get an idea of what he'll be required to do in school - plus he helped edit one of mine before submitting. 

 

What has worked for you? Do you need to commiserate? What specific skills have helped your slow or apathetic writer? 

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My son hated writing.  It was excruciating to get him to write a short paper.  I was so worried that he would even pass freshman comp.  Lo and behold, freshman comp came and he got a B+ on his first paper.  It went up from there. He ended up with an A- in the class. He also, much to my shock and surprise, ended up getting an A+ on a paper for his history class.  When all the grades were in, I asked him about the discrepancy between my experience with him at home and his performance in college.  His reply was this:

 

1.  I procrastinated terribly at home because the deadlines didn't feel real. 

2. I had little to compare myself to at home and thought that I could not write.  In college I saw that I did as well or better than my fellow students, so it felt worth working hard.

3.  I wanted to do well in college.

 

He still has to work hard and spend plenty of time on papers, but he does well on them.  As he does more, it is getting easier for him.  It looks like you have a couple of years with him.  His motivation might change.  But maybe an outside class would enhance that?  

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:grouphug: Ug! I sympathize! DS#1 didn't like writing, and DS#2 has LDs in that area, so it was a struggle.

Similar to Farmgirl70, DSs seemed to do better when they hit college and were writing for others. And also similar to lprstn, in retrospect, the best thing we did was a weekly timed essay. Below are more details on things that seemed to help here. You have my sympathy -- getting DSs to write was the hardest part of high school! Warmest regards, Lori D.

1. Key Word Outlines
Prior to high school, we had learned and used keyword outlining from IEW (just learned it from seeing Pudewa at a conference -- didn't buy/use the materials). In high school, we used that towards the end of  brainstorming for a paper or a paper, as a way of organizing thoughts:

_________ intro: "hook" (to catch reader attention); "intro info" / any needed background info; thesis statement

_________ body: #1 point + supporting example / fact / anecdote + commentary sentence + concluding commentary
_________ body: #2 point + supporting example / fact / anecdote + commentary sentence + concluding commentary
_________ body: #3 point + supporting example / fact / anecdote + commentary sentence + concluding commentary

_________ conclusion (overview/wrap-up of thesis in light of the body argument + a little something to leave with the reader)

 

2. Windows to the World: literary analysis essay instructions
The section of Windows to the World on writing a literary analysis essay was exactly how DSs needed to hear it: specific step-by-step. The biggest two take-aways for them from that was 1.) how to write a thesis, and 2.) how to write the "commentary" sentence (the 1-2 sentences that explain how/why your supporting example / fact / detail supports your point). After going through WttW, when preparing to write a paper, the outline looked more like this:

Introductory Paragraph
_________ "hook" (to catch reader attention)
_________  "intro info" (name of work/author)
_________  thesis statement, which has 3 parts:
                  a. topic (overall subject)
                  b. "claim" (your position/take on the subject)
                  c. direction (major points covered in body, which develop an argument in support of thesis claim)

Body Paragraph (each)
_________ sentence of transition from intro into first example
_________ topic sentence: "this paragraph is about point #1 (often can combine with the transition)
_________ if needed: sentence(s) of background/context on the point, OR, to set up the example
_________ sentence(s): #1 support -- example / fact / data / anecdote
_________ commentary #1 (explaining how/why example #1 DOES support the point covered in that paragraph)
_________ sentence(s): #2 support -- example / fact / data / anecdote
_________ commentary #2 (explaining how/why example #2 DOES support the point covered in that paragraph)
_________ concluding commentary (connecting the dots between the point of the paragraph to the thesis claim -- "this shows that ______" -- how the point supports your claim + concluding sentence and/or transition into next body paragraph

Conclusion Paragraph
_________ transition sentence to smooth going from last body paragraph (detail) into the conclusion (overview)
_________ sentence(s) overview/wrap-up of the thesis, in light of the argument developed in the body (so not just a simple restatement of the points made)
_________ "clincher" (IEW term) -- leaving the reader with a little "extra", that is a direct result of your argument throughout the paper: a "moral", a call to action, a final thought (without introducing new points, examples), etc.

3. More on "how to do" the commentary sentence in an essay
 "Wow! I think I fixed my son's writing!" thread started by Nan in Mass in which she comes at that sentence of commentary in a different way that also makes good sense; also she listed a specific writing program that looked very helpful.

4. Weekly timed essays
Idea from 8FilltheHeart: almost every week throughout high school, we did timed essays from past SAT prompts (available from Online Math Learning: Test Prep). We started with 10 minutes and the goal of 1 complete paragraph, and then slowly worked up, every few weeks adding a goal and/or time. See this past post of mine for a breakdown of what we did: Preparing for Essay Exams post #5. BTW: for more about 8FilltheHeart and her method of teaching essay writing, check out this thread: "Bringing Karen's mention of essay writing to a new thread".

This was one of the most helpful things we did. I believe it is because it just MADE them put pen to paper regularly, and they had to think quickly and had to pick one point and support it. The other reason I think this worked was because of the way we did it. All 3 of us did it together (we would each pick our own prompt from the 3 or 4 listed -- sometimes we all picked the same one, other times we all picked different ones). Then we read them aloud afterwards, and *gently* critiqued them. No grades, no proofing. Occasionally, I would have DS take a timed essay he enjoyed and work it into a longer paper; then it was proofed and graded.

5. Public Speaking / Speech & Debate
There is much overlap between writing and public speaking / speech & debate -- organizing thoughts, supporting your points with specific examples, the explanation of how/why your examples support your point, hooking your audience, persuading… I think it also helps speed up all that process because when in a debate, you have to think fast on your feet and you get a lot of practice doing it when on a team, in a class, or some other venue that has frequent opportunities for debate. For example: our DSs were each involved in Youth & Gov't for 3 years, which gave them great opportunity for regular bill debate and arguing opinions; I really think that Y&G coupled with the timed essays helped to hone them in quick -- and sharp! -- thinkers. Junior State of America and Model UN are other fun organizations that involve arguing opinions.

6. Wisdom from the WTM
Resources for teaching writing to high school -- *awesome* thread started by Swimmermomto3, with so many experienced moms weighing in with tips and ideas. And of course, SWB's own 4-part article on Teaching the Research Paper.

7. Reader response papers
Our DSs were done by the time Tullia posted about reader response papers ("If you're frustrated with discussing history and literature with a high school student" AND "More about response papers and their context"), but I highly recommend working in that type of assignment from time to time, too.

8. Additional web resources
Info on these two websites were helpful to us: OWL at Purdue, and The Five Paragraph Essay.

9. Stack the Deck: How to Take an Essay Exam
Some helpful tips on timed essays and essay answers to questions -- specifically, what is being looked for in the essay with the different words used in the question, such as "compare" or "analyze" or ... etc.

10. Rubric / checklist
Again, something I found that helped *after* we were done homeschooling, was the tip from Marcia Somerville (of Tapestry of Grace and Writing Aids) on handing a rubric or checklist to your student with a due date, for each step of the writing process. I did that last year for the Lit & Comp co-op class I taught, and it REALLY helped them know exactly what I expected. Marcia Somerville's Writing Workshop CDs are very helpful in outlining how to set up a rubric/checklist. Based on her info, I made my own rubric/checklist for the co-op class I led last year; see a sample of that in post #3 of "Help with writing literary analysis essay".

As far as DS being apathetic about writing on subjects in which he has no interest… totally commiserate! DS with the LDs is very similar in personality.

All I can say is that I tried as much as possible to work with him in having the writing assignments be in subjects of his interest, and when he had to so some writing not of his interest, I just appealed to his intelligence and maturity, with a dash of humor: "Look, I know this is not of interest to you, but practicing how to write in this format is important for future college and career purposes. You know that as much as possible I am always willing to bend and work with you and your interests, because this is a team effort. Sometimes, though, you'll have to do some of the bending to be a part of this team. So let's brainstorm and put our creativity to work, and see what we can come up with that will fulfill the assignment, and reduce the pain and apathy for you."

Also, you might together read this article by University of Chicago professors Williams and McEnerney on "Writing in College", which helps students see what will be expected of them in college writing, so they can be working toward that in high school.

Edited by Lori D.
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The comparison thing is a biggie for teen boys.
 

They think they can't write because they can't write like us (or like the authors we have them read -- they compare themselves to the authors of the Great Books), and we have these very high standards we've been enforcing since they were six...

but then they find themselves in a mainstream environment where they are writing alongside peers, and they finally get it.

They finally understand that they can write. They might not be ready for a publishing house but they can compose an essay using excellent vocabulary, grammar, punctuation, and reason...and they are the only ones in class who can meet these simple objectives. Not that you'd comment on it or teach him to feel superior to his friends, of course! He would see it for himself with no commentary necessary from you or anyone else.

I hate to say, "Make sure your son can feel better about his writing by exposing him to situations in which it will be glaringly obvious to him that his peers can't write their way out of a paper bag," but that actually is what I'm saying.

:glare: I don't like negative reinforcement, usually, and this is not one of my favorite tricks-of-the-trade but I've been through it three times so far so I'm keepin' it real for ya.


 

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I hate to say, "Make sure your son can feel better about his writing by exposing him to situations in which it will be glaringly obvious to him that his peers can't write their way out of a paper bag," but that actually is what I'm saying.

I can relate to having a slow and apathetic writer.  In fact,the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.  So I can commiserate.  I think you are doing well, and I would just encourage you to keep plugging away.  Outsourcing helped tremendously here.

 

I would agree with everything that has been said by the pps.  We never did much on timed essays and it showed in ds's ACT writing score. 

 

This is what worked for us:

We used Write Shop in 6th-7th-8th grade.  In 9th, we had no formal instruction but ds did write papers weekly.  At the end of the year, I had several of his papers graded by Write At Home.  In 10th grade, ds took HS Composition through Laurel Tree Tutorials.  The dozen or so students in the class had to post their rough drafts online for all to see.  They had peer reviews.  Knowing that his peers would be reviewing his papers, motivated ds a bit more.  I could read all the papers.  His were not the best and not the worst.  In 11th grade, ds took Honors Comp 1 at CC.  I had researched the teachers and chose one that gave plenty of feedback.  At the end of the class, she actually asked for a copy of one of his papers to use as an example for others!  He is now taking Honors Comp 2 with the same teacher.  While he is away this weekend, I snooped in his backpack and found his papers from the semester.  It's a little difficult to follow, because ds has a habit of using 'Save As' and then doesn't think to change the date or revision number. It looks like there are 5 total versions of his research paper and he's not done yet.  I see many comments - from Incomplete to Excellent.  The closer I look, the more I realize it's best I don't look.  Ds returned home from CC late one day last week.  When I asked why he was late, he said he had a meeting with his writing teacher.  That's a good thing.

 

My goal has always been that he be a competent writer.  I know for a fact that he has received much more instruction than I ever had.

 

HTH! 

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