Interesting insight from admissions counselor...

[angela in ohio]

Dd went to visit Olin the past few days. She had some great conversations with the admissions counselors.

 

Apparently, they accept few homeschoolers because they often feel they can't verify their education. Thanks to advice on this board and others like it, I had made sure dd had outside courses for the end of her science, math, and Latin sequence, appropriate SAT Subject tests, multiple outside recommendation letters, and thorough course descriptions. Though her test scores were below the average for the school, her activities, awards, and coursework got her admitted. They have apparently turned away homeschoolers with perfect scores, though, because their admissions materials made their background seem "sketchy." :D They had a discussion about how the admissions counselors only know what they are presented with, so they have to have thorough application materials and some way to verify what the parent lists.

 

Dd was laughing, because she was remembered as the "Dean's List Winner who read all the books." The admissions officer said what struck them about her coursework was her reading list (thank you WTM high school Great Books study!) And this was for an engineering school. :)

[Lori D.]

Thanks so much for posting this, Angela! Making a mental note to remind my local homeschool group of making sure to do their paperwork! :)

[snowbeltmom]

Dd went to visit Olin the past few days. She had some great conversations with the admissions counselors.

 

Apparently, they accept few homeschoolers because they often feel they can't verify their education. Thanks to advice on this board and others like it, I had made sure dd had outside courses for the end of her science, math, and Latin sequence, appropriate SAT Subject tests, multiple outside recommendation letters, and thorough course descriptions. Though her test scores were below the average for the school, her activities, awards, and coursework got her admitted. They have apparently turned away homeschoolers with perfect scores, though, because their admissions materials made their background seem "sketchy." :D They had a discussion about how the admissions counselors only know what they are presented with, so they have to have thorough application materials and some way to verify what the parent lists.

 

Dd was laughing, because she was remembered as the "Dean's List Winner who read all the books." The admissions officer said what struck them about her coursework was her reading list (thank you WTM high school Great Books study!) And this was for an engineering school. :)

 

What is meant by "perfect scores?"  Are they referring to grades on the transcript assigned by the mom, or are the "perfect scores" standardized test scores?  If the "perfect scores" are, in fact, standardized test scores, I don't understand how the homeschoolers' backgrounds could be deemed "sketchy" since it would not be possible to receive a perfect score on the SAT or any of the SAT II's with a "sketchy" educational background.

 

If by "perfect score" the admissions officer was referring to all A's on the transcript, then that makes sense.  Otherwise I don't get it at all.

 

[creekland]

What is meant by "perfect scores?"  Are they referring to grades on the transcript assigned by the mom, or are the "perfect scores" standardized test scores?  If the "perfect scores" are, in fact, standardized test scores, I don't understand how the homeschoolers' backgrounds could be deemed "sketchy" since it would not be possible to receive a perfect score on the SAT or any of the SAT II's with a "sketchy" educational background.

 

If by "perfect score" the admissions officer was referring to all A's on the transcript, then that makes sense.  Otherwise I don't get it at all.

 

 

I'm with you.  I bet they meant a 4.0 GPA with nothing from outside to substantiate it.

[regentrude]

If you have the scores and they do an interview you have all the verification needed.

..

  If a student is well prepared it is obvious.

 

It is not obvious to the admissions counselors if there is no information about the coursework. Standardized tests shine a small spot light on a very limited area.

 

Interviews are not routinely conducted with all applicants. the way they are done in this country*, interviews are not a good tool to verify preparedness, because, if an interview is granted, the interviewers are not faculty members, but alumni volunteers who are not qualified to judge academic qualifications and only can get a general impression of the candidate's personality. (My DD was applying to major in physics and one of her interviewers had majored in dance)

 

(*in Oxford, you get interviewed thoroughly by academics, and it is all about your academic preparedness)

 

ETA: I am with the people who guess that "perfect scores" did, in fact, mean "perfect grades".

[Nan in Mass]

Dd went to visit Olin the past few days. She had some great conversations with the admissions counselors.

 

Apparently, they accept few homeschoolers because they often feel they can't verify their education. Thanks to advice on this board and others like it, I had made sure dd had outside courses for the end of her science, math, and Latin sequence, appropriate SAT Subject tests, multiple outside recommendation letters, and thorough course descriptions. Though her test scores were below the average for the school, her activities, awards, and coursework got her admitted. They have apparently turned away homeschoolers with perfect scores, though, because their admissions materials made their background seem "sketchy." :D They had a discussion about how the admissions counselors only know what they are presented with, so they have to have thorough application materials and some way to verify what the parent lists.

 

Dd was laughing, because she was remembered as the "Dean's List Winner who read all the books." The admissions officer said what struck them about her coursework was her reading list (thank you WTM high school Great Books study!) And this was for an engineering school. :)

 

We heard something similar from an admissions counselor who works for a school that sees lots of homeschool applications.  We met with her early on in our homeschooling high school experience and I will be forever grateful to her for explaining this.  My children would have been woefully under-verified for the schools they were interested in otherwise.  This school had a form for homeschoolers that was designed to help them get some idea of what the student did for classes.  As far as I can remember (it was quite awhile ago now), it was a grid.  You listed subject/class/project down the side and then filled in hours spent, who oversaw the project, what that person's qualifications were, what resources were used, etc.  Although at the time, they were a test-optional school, they required standardized tests from homeschoolers.  She explained that she respected community college classes, but she wanted to see grades from three core subjects (English, math, science, or history).

 

Nan

[snowbeltmom]

It is not obvious to the admissions counselors if there is no information about the coursework. Standardized tests shine a small spot light on a very limited area.

 

I disagree.  Imo, standardized test scores, especially the SAT II's, provide far more information about a student's mastery of the subject than simply listing what coursework was completed and what textbook was used.  It is not possible to get "perfect scores" on these standardized tests without mastering the subject.  This is why the highly competitive schools request these standardized test scores from every applicant - they need a uniform, reliable way to evaluate students.

 

[regentrude]

I disagree.  Imo, standardized test scores, especially the SAT II's, provide far more information about a student's mastery of the subject than simply listing what coursework was completed and what textbook was used.  It is not possible to get "perfect scores" on these standardized tests without mastering the subject.  This is why the highly competitive schools request these standardized test scores from every applicant - they need a uniform, reliable way to evaluate students.

 

 

SAT2 and AP scores, yes, definitely. I was under the impression that these kinds of scores were not presented in the situation described by the OP and  was thinking of the ACT and regular SAT which do not allow any conclusions about the student's curriculum and subject mastery of anything but the narrow test content.

[creekland]

Just to be clear with outside verification (and to not scare away everyone!), my guy got into 5/6 schools with significant merit aid (the last being a "lottery school" where he was waitlisted) with a super high ACT, 2 DE A's (Microbio and Public Speaking), and an AP 5 in Stats.  He was also taking a DE English class and doing an AP Level Psych class at the time of application.  

 

He had no SAT Subject tests (we e-mailed the schools he was applying to and were told he didn't need them) and we didn't do any course descriptions (ditto with the e-mail - were also told since we were from PA - a "high reporting" state - that we did not need them whereas other states would, so that e-mail can be important).

 

He did have an extensive, varied, reading list and other extra curriculars (youth groups, writing contest wins, travel, etc).  ;)

 

Admissions (not at Olin, but at my middle son's Top 30 school) told us they don't need to see oodles of high scores as they know a student who can score high on a couple of things will score high on others.  They do want to see more than just a "mommy" transcript though, and they like seeing that homeschoolers have a life outside of home.  They tend to reject those without substantiation in those things.

 

Lower level schools don't always care to even have that amount, but I suspect ALL but the highest admittance rate schools will want to see "something" besides a mommy transcript whether that something is inside or outside the box.

 

When in doubt, e-mail homeschool admissions counselors at schools of interest and ask.  I'd do this while there's still time to prepare/change plans (10th grade or so).

[Gwen in VA]

I would like to "third" Nan and Agnela.  I too have had a conversation with an admissions counselor at a top-20 LAC who said exactly what the admissions counselors said to them -- this college would accept more homeschoolers if the homeschoolers who applied provided more "outside verification" of what they have done.

 

This outside verification can come in a variety of forms --

* standardized test -- SAT, SAT2's, AP's...

* awards and prizes (especially regional and national ones)

* outside classes (especially dual-enrollment)

*recommendations -- if your chemistry teacher won a national award in teaching and then writes a rec saying you walk on water, that's a STRONG rec!

*activities -- Interlochen or Philmont or whatever program indicates that you are serious about what you do

 

And if you are applying to a colleges that accepts 80% of applicants, you need a lot less outside verification than someone applying to a top-20 college!

 

My nieces attended one of those uber-expensive uber-selective Eastern prep schools, and when I asked them what info they provided to colleges, the list looked a lot like what my kids did -- lots of tests, recs, awards, and strong activities. The big difference is that the school did the school profile, the course descriptions (though my nieces obviously didn't send them in their applications, the descriptions are available on the school website!), the transcript, and the guidance counselor rec.

 

But preparing those documents is one of the things we sign up for when we homeschool high school!

 

If your kid is applying to non-reallty-selective schools, he most likely won't need outside verification beyond SAT scores -- but some of us have kids who are applying to selective schools and/or need merit aid, and providing that extra bit of assurance to the school is key!

[Kathy in Richmond]

Olin is very unusual in that you can't get an offer of admissions without first attending a Candidates' weekend on campus. Only top applicants are invited, and they undergo two days of intensive group work, individual interviews, etc. Olin is extremely small (class size under 100) and ability to work together and "fit' with the overall mission of the college is important. They only offer bids to those who impress them favorably at the end of that weekend.

 

All Olin students receive half tuition merit scholarships automatically (it used to be full tuition!) and generous need based aid on top of that. It has a top-notch engineering program, with all kinds of hands-on opportunities (kids are trusted with keys to all the labs and can go in 24/7) and advanced coursework. The drawback is that they only offer a limited number of engineering majors, so you have to be fairly sure that you won't change your mind. It's easy, however, to cross register at Babson (next door) or Wellesley (a short bus trip away). Our friend who's going there is taking her humanities classes at Wellesley.

 

As a result of all that, Olin has extremely competitive admissions. Congratulations to Angela's daughter for receiving an offer this year!

 

I have a question for you, Angela. When we visited Olin with dd five years ago, the admissions office told us that homeschoolers were *required* to provide a rather extensive portfolio in addition to test scores. They weren't willing to make an exception for us, despite dd's long list of SAT2s and APs and awards. To me, they came across as a bit homeschool unfriendly, or maybe unaware is a better word for it. Dd ended up not applying to Olin for another reason (she was seriously interested in pursuing her Classics studies), so I didn't follow up with questioning that rule. Did you have have to supply a portfolio, or have they changed that requirement?

 

OK, one more question for you! Has she made up her mind to go?!

[angela in ohio]

Perfect scores indeed meant perfect scores on the SAT. We have heard the "we reject plenty of people with perfect scores but nothing else to show us" from many schools, but apparently it really is true. [Then there is my dd, who we calculated, based on the small incoming class size, would ding their average SAT math score alone by 10 points if she accepts. :D] They want students who have proven themselves in group situations, leadership opportunities, and the like, so they want some verification of success in that arena, which can't come from test scores.

 

Thank you, Kathy, that is really kind! It really was a cool process. They were pretty open-ended about what they wanted. Right now the guideline says that if you don't have outside verification through un umbrella, EPGY, college courses, etc., then they want a portfolio. They also want two outside letters in addition to the parent letter, and they encourage more. I submitted a course description list, book list, and her spreadsheet of activities/awards. That was it. I was actually kind of a bad counselor, in that I never contacted them and asked what they wanted specifically, and we never demonstrated any interest before she applied. It was one of her "apply to a few reach schools and see if you get lucky" schools. :) I think we took a risk not sending a full portfolio, but dd had an international award and a persuasive recommendation from her research advisor. We knew the only possible sticking point would be her test scores. We had outside letters from all three of her teachers and her research advisor/boss.

[Nan in Mass]

It is possible to have perfect SAT scores and still have:

Not enough background science knowledge to survive high level science classes

Not enough writing/research experience to be able to survive a research-heavy or project-heavy academic structure

Not enough laboratory experience to be able to survive high level science classes

Not enough problem-solving experience to survive high level math/engineering classes

Not enough study skills to survive classroom-based learning experiences

Not enough experience working in groups to survive a project-based academic structure

Not enough school experience to navigate one's way through the college system

 

Some colleges assume that the entering students are already well past where an easier engineering school's students start.  Isn't much of what they offer project-based?  It isn't that hard to get a perfect score on the SATs without having much other than very good basic math and very good reading abilities.  Plenty of under-educated, over-intelligent students do GRIN.  It is perfectly possible to get fairly good SAT scores and then flunk out of college. ( I myself got a fairly decent score on the physics SAT when I was only about a month into my first high school physics class, and I'm not all that intelligent GRIN.)  I'm not saying the tests measure nothing and can be ignored - I just think it is possible to do quite well on them but not really have the preparation needed to survive college.  There is a reason youngest's college wanted to wait to see his community college calc and physics grade before they would admit him, and middle one's college pretty much ignored everything we sent them except his community college grades.  Youngest's college is really, really familiar with homeschool applicants.  Middle one's college had no experience with homeschoolers, as far as I could tell.  Some colleges are large enough that they are willing to take more chances, or know that the education they offer is survivable to those with little classroom experience.  Other colleges are too small to do that or know that their students have to hit the ground running hard the minute they arrive.  Good thing we have lots of different types of colleges here in the US GRIN.  They may be expensive, but I am super grateful for the variety.

 

Nan

[Colleen in NS]

posting to subscribe

 

Congrats, Angela!  Again, I am loving reading your recent posts.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Congratulations to Angela's daughter for receiving an offer this year!

Yes, congratulations!  Thank you for sharing the conversation.

 

OK, one more question for you! Has she made up her mind to go?!

Inquiring minds want to know.  :bigear:

[angela in ohio]

Inquiring minds want to know.  :bigear:

 

Oops, I missed Kathy's question the first time.

 

She is really torn between Olin and U of M. Dh and I think it is a pretty clear choice, but she is still working it through. :) Olin was really generous with aid, and it would be about $2000 less than U of M, which would cover most of the extra travel expenses, so there are no differences financially. We told her we need to know this coming week, because she needs to submit a housing application to apply to the U of M women's STEM residential program if she goes there. As I write this, she is meeting with a U of M student we sort of know, asking all the "real life questions."

 

[Serenade]

Just to be clear with outside verification (and to not scare away everyone!), my guy got into 5/6 schools with significant merit aid (the last being a "lottery school" where he was waitlisted) with a super high ACT, 2 DE A's (Microbio and Public Speaking), and an AP 5 in Stats.  He was also taking a DE English class and doing an AP Level Psych class at the time of application.

What is a DE class?

[Brenda in MA]

What is a DE class?

DE means dual enrollment -- usually a class taken at a local college while the student is still homeschooling for high school. In our experience, DE classes are a great way to ease a child into the college way of life -- get them used to the classroom, dealing with professors, managing assignments for someone else, etc. They can also be a good source of recommendation letters from an "outside the home" teacher. Both of my sons have had positive experiences with DE classes.

 

Brenda

[Nan in Mass]

There are advantages and disadvantages with DE classes but in general, my sons' experiences were also positive.  Mine needed the classroom experience to survive university because we homeschooled in a very loose way, without grades or tests and often without a textbook.

[bettyandbob]

Congrats on the admission to Olin! A running club buddy of mine has a dd there who is graduating this year. She participated in amazing research, had fantastic internships and helped start business/engineering partnership group with students from Olin, MIT, and Harvard. The school has been a tremendous source of opportunities. She has amazing choices in PhD programs now.

 

Good luck with the decision.

[raptor_dad]

Interviews are not routinely conducted with all applicants. the way they are done in this country*, interviews are not a good tool to verify preparedness, because, if an interview is granted, the interviewers are not faculty members, but alumni volunteers who are not qualified to judge academic qualifications and only can get a general impression of the candidate's personality. (My DD was applying to major in physics and one of her interviewers had majored in dance)

 

(*in Oxford, you get interviewed thoroughly by academics, and it is all about your academic preparedness)

 

Many schools have applicants do local interviews with alumni volunteers. At various points, DW has been an interviewer for Duke, despite not attending there undergrad. This isn't ideal since one major element of these interviews is to be informational and evangelical about the "fantastic" undergrad experience. The other major role of these interviews is to provide basic due diligence. The applicants who have no interest in the school get weeded out. The strong candidates get a *very* small bump in credibility. These sorts of interviews are just another threshold to cross(on par with minimum test scores), unless your interviewer is a major donor(and your family is seen as a potential major donor). It is nothing like Oxford interviews of Olin's Candidate Weekend, etc.