Analytical Grammar, Hake, Killagon

[La Texican]

Can I get some opinions on these? Is there any other grammar book you want to tell me about?

eta. Oops, I meant to post in the curriculums forum. ðŸ˜

[Crimson Wife]

I really like Killgallon but his books are best used after the student is familiar with the various phrases and clauses. So if your child is only in MCT's "island" level, I would at least do Grammar Town before starting Killgallon.

[Tiramisu]

I'm not sure how old your dc is so it's hard to judge. 

 

I agree that Killgallon is better when there's some previous grammar experience.

 

Hake seems very thorough but the lessons seem rather long. Does that fit your style? Reading your siggy, I get the feeling you'd do well with using only the grammar portions of Shurley. Brief and to the point.

 

 

[La Texican]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/324968-thoughts-on-shurley-english/

 

I liked the way the school version looked much better than the homeschool version.

According to this review, in this case, you can judge a book by its cover. :)

Yes, I like brief and to the point. I didn't know about Shurley Grammar. Cool.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Hake's lessons are not long! The lessons are short and sweet. The reviews are long, but they can be skipped if they are not needed. Hake lessons take maybe 5 minutes. I personally don't consider that long.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm not sure how old your dc is so it's hard to judge. 

 

I agree that Killgallon is better when there's some previous grammar experience.

 

Hake seems very thorough but the lessons seem rather long. Does that fit your style? Reading your siggy, I get the feeling you'd do well with using only the grammar portions of Shurley. Brief and to the point.

 

Have you used Hake? I'm curious how long a lesson took. One thing I love about Hake is the quick and easy lessons, so I'm trying to understand this.

 

[Tiramisu]

Have you used Hake? I'm curious how long a lesson took. One thing I love about Hake is the quick and easy lessons, so I'm trying to understand this.

 

 

I've only looked at the lessons. And I always think of the review section of lessons as part of the lesson. On the boards, I've heard of Hake taking between 30 and 45 minutes, which I assume means the review sections. That amount of time for a grammar lesson is long, but I wouldn't consider it long if it included writing. Does that make sense?

 

ETA: I think of Hake as being closely based on the Saxon math methodology, in which case not doing the "problem set" would be detrimental. That's definitely something I don't know enough about to judge in Hake. 

[My3girls]

We are using AG and following the 6-8 grade schedule. Dd struggled in the beginning, but is doing well with it, now. We tried Killgallon, but it was overkill while using WWS and AG. I'm planning to do it orally with dd over the summer as a supplement to our primary lessons.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I've only looked at the lessons. And I always think of the review section of lessons as part of the lesson. On the boards, I've heard of Hake taking between 30 and 45 minutes, which I assume means the review sections. That amount of time for a grammar lesson is long, but I wouldn't consider it long if it included writing. Does that make sense?

 

ETA: I think of Hake as being closely based on the Saxon math methodology, in which case not doing the "problem set" would be detrimental. That's definitely something I don't know enough about to judge in Hake. 

 

It makes sense, but that's not been our experience. The reviews do take longer than the lesson, but I don't think they have ever taken 45 minutes. Certainly not on a regular basis.

 

I would imagine that doing all the reviews in Hake would be way too much for most kids. We only do a review every week or so, sometimes not even that often.

[MrsMe]

Hake works off of learning by review as does their math, so while the new lesson is short, there are 30 review questions of all different types.  Hake has a small number by each review in case you need to look up the concept. You "could" do half I suppose. But they introduce a lot of concepts (at least in 6th level) and not very many for the initial lesson.  I like that Hake has vocabulary and dictation, however, it is a lot of multiple choice, and I'm not sure out of multiple choice, my child would know the answers.  We're currently doing Hake 6.  I like the review,  because it's different....sort of like double the Daily Grams.  But I'm not sold on the method of mostly multiple choice. 

[La Texican]

I like what I've been reading about Killagon, that it seems to expand on WWE by teaching composition by studying well written sentences. I'm taking Crimson Wife's advice that my child should have more than Island level grammer before I buy the Killagon, so I bought the Shurley textbook used because it was only one book (so, cheaper). That should get us through the summer since we school year round, one week on, one week off. There's no way the Island level books I have would last us that long.

Shurley should last us to the middle of next year. I guess I'll revisit this thread then to decide between AG, Hake, and Killagon. Actually I guess owning Shurely rules out the need for AG. What are the excercises in Hake like? As far as I can gather, Killagon asks you to compose sentences with a similar structure to the sentences you're studying. Is that correct?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Hake works off of learning by review as does their math, so while the new lesson is short, there are 30 review questions of all different types.  Hake has a small number by each review in case you need to look up the concept. You "could" do half I suppose. But they introduce a lot of concepts (at least in 6th level) and not very many for the initial lesson.  I like that Hake has vocabulary and dictation, however, it is a lot of multiple choice, and I'm not sure out of multiple choice, my child would know the answers.  We're currently doing Hake 6.  I like the review,  because it's different....sort of like double the Daily Grams.  But I'm not sold on the method of mostly multiple choice. 

 

Hmm...this sounds a bit different than the ones we have used. We have only used 7 and 8, so maybe they are different.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

What are the excercises in Hake like? As far as I can gather, Killagon asks you to compose sentences with a similar structure to the sentences you're studying. Is that correct?

 

We use both Hake and Killgallon. Hake has a short lesson introducing new vocab and a new concept then a few exercises using both. Next is an extra practice section and then the review.

 

Killgallon is more of a supplement to both grammar and writing for us.

 

[MrsMe]

We use both Hake and Killgallon. Hake has a short lesson introducing new vocab and a new concept then a few exercises using both. Next is an extra practice section and then the review.

 

Killgallon is more of a supplement to both grammar and writing for us.

 

 

Sounds the same.  :)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Sounds the same.  :)

 

Hmm..I wouldn't say there are a lot of multiple choice in 7 and 8. It seems like a good mix to me.

[Hunter]

I'm really trying to figure out how much of Hake 7 can be skipped without worrying that something important was missed. With Saxon, some things are DISCOVERED by doing the problem sets, instead of being explicitly taught. I don't skip Saxon problems. Period.

 

I have not been skipping any of the Hake review problems, but I have been skipping some if the practice lessons, when they are REALLY long. "Really!" I have asked outloud at 30 practice problems and "more practice" and 30 review problems. The "more practice" looks the most skippable.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Hmm...well ....we skipped the vast majority of reviews in 7. We have skipped the same amount so far in 8 without an ounce of trouble. Like most things, I'm sure it depends on the student.

[MrsMe]

Hmm..I wouldn't say there are a lot of multiple choice in 7 and 8. It seems like a good mix to me.

 

Oh, I see.  Now that I go back and check our book, because we don't rewrite a word, we just circle the correct answer in the question itself to avoid writing on a separate sheet or writing a word out, it seems a lot like multiple choice.  We don't do a lot of writing to fix any sentences, but do a lot of "finding" and answering either/or questions.  So if I go back and look at the work itself I see all the work mostly be being able to be circled or underlined as opposed to filling in a blank.  So you're right, it's really not a lot of multiple choice.    I didn't realize that before. 

 

I know this is a bit OT, but had planned on discontinuing Saxon for this reason, so it was important to me to look at Saxon 7 and 8.  I'm not convinced dd could do or know this information outside of Saxon's method.  I can't put my finger on why really that it seems to me to be more of a less "thoughtful" program for us.  I think because there is nothing you have to really create or give a lot of examples of, on your own?   A good portion of it can be done with a simple underline or circle.  Come to think of it, I'm not sure any program does this.  Interesting revelation on my part. :confused1:

[MrsMe]

I'm really trying to figure out how much of Hake 7 can be skipped without worrying that something important was missed. With Saxon, some things are DISCOVERED by doing the problem sets, instead of being explicitly taught. I don't skip Saxon problems. Period.

 

I have not been skipping any of the Hake review problems, but I have been skipping some if the practice lessons, when they are REALLY long. "Really!" I have asked outloud at 30 practice problems and "more practice" and 30 review problems. The "more practice" looks the most skippable.

 

We usually skip the "More Practice" unless dd bombed the "Practice" set and then it's only even or odd. But we've only done that once.  I thought that was a pretty insane amount.   Anyone know why they add this excess off-hand?  It's rather odd.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Oh, I see.  Now that I go back and check our book, because we don't rewrite a word, we just circle the correct answer in the question itself to avoid writing on a separate sheet or writing a word out, it seems a lot like multiple choice.  We don't do a lot of writing to fix any sentences, but do a lot of "finding" and answering either/or questions.  So if I go back and look at the work itself I see all the work mostly be being able to be circled or underlined as opposed to filling in a blank.  So you're right, it's really not a lot of multiple choice.    I didn't realize that before. 

 

I know this is a bit OT, but had planned on discontinuing Saxon for this reason, so it was important to me to look at Saxon 7 and 8.  I'm not convinced dd could do or know this information outside of Saxon's method.  I can't put my finger on why really that it seems to me to be more of a less "thoughtful" program for us.  I think because there is nothing you have to really create or give a lot of examples of, on your own?   A good portion of it can be done with a simple underline or circle.  Come to think of it, I'm not sure any program does this.  Interesting revelation on my part. :confused1:

 

I agree; I wouldn't call Hake thoughtful. It's more of a nuts and bolts program, but we use a huge mix of resources and that's the role Hake plays for us. There is a carryover for my dd in her other work.  It's something to consider, though. If there's no carryover, there's no point. Something else might work better in that case. :)

[MrsMe]

I agree; I wouldn't call Hake thoughtful. It's more of a nuts and bolts program, but we use a huge mix of resources and that's the role Hake plays for us. There is a carryover for my dd in her other work.  It's something to consider, though. If there's no carryover, there's no point. Something else might work better in that case. :)

 

Yes!  That's it!   That's what I could never pinpoint. 

 

[Tiramisu]

I like what I've been reading about Killagon, that it seems to expand on WWE by teaching composition by studying well written sentences. I'm taking Crimson Wife's advice that my child should have more than Island level grammer before I buy the Killagon, so I bought the Shurley textbook used because it was only one book (so, cheaper). That should get us through the summer since we school year round, one week on, one week off. There's no way the Island level books I have would last us that long.

Shurley should last us to the middle of next year. I guess I'll revisit this thread then to decide between AG, Hake, and Killagon. Actually I guess owning Shurely rules out the need for AG. What are the excercises in Hake like? As far as I can gather, Killagon asks you to compose sentences with a similar structure to the sentences you're studying. Is that correct?

 

Yes, that's right. You work with exercises where you match sentence parts to build sentences that are identical in structure to the model sentences and then you write your own. The basic structure will be the same (prepositional phrase in a middle position, for example) but you also imitate their placement of modifiers like adjectives, adverbs, etc., from what I remember.

 

I hope you like Shurley! We haven't used it full-time but it has been a surprisingly enjoyable supplement for us this year. I was planning on using it full-time next year since it's been such a hit but dd is pushing for Rod and Staff again. 

[Hunter]

We usually skip the "More Practice" unless dd bombed the "Practice" set and then it's only even or odd. But we've only done that once. I thought that was a pretty insane amount. Anyone know why they add this excess off-hand? It's rather odd.

I think it's there for PS students that are placed too high. The grade 7 questions are often not entry level questions, They are not canned. I'll bet some students keep getting the questions wrong and wrong and wrong.

 

I'm assuming the questions are more canned in earlier levels? I'd rather move a student down than have them do lots of questions wrong. Saxon done slowly with lots of mistakes is so discouraging. I'm assuming Hake is the same.