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Deconstucting Penguins- how to?


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This was on the Sonlight thread:

And it was YEARS after I read Mr. Popper's Penguins that I read Deconstructing Penguins and realized all we had missed--

What did I miss?! We read and enjoyed the book, but I'm sensing we should have gotten more meaning out of it now? Please do tell!

 

I first heard of this book on these forums, and after ordering it from our library and reading it (mind you I didn't choose the BEST time to read the book before sending it back, so maybe I completely missed the point?) I still am not sure how to bring that level of discussion to our books. How do you find these deeper themes? How do you move past the great story to find the topics as listed in Deconstucting Penguins?

After reading that book I felt like I wanted to work through the books they give as examples, simply because I don't see how to apply it to my life. While their examples were great it left me with a blank look... That's great but how do I pull that off with other books?

I don't want to continue to read books like Mr. Popper's Penguins (okay, that's not true I'm looking forward to reading it again with DD#2) and completely miss the point. Or at least miss the opportunity to go deeper with my kids and to REALLY enjoy the book.

Anyone care to discuss this with me?

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I feel the exact same way.  It's the reason I haven't bought Teaching the Classics even though I've been tempted for years.  It's too open ended for me.  I understand what they are talking about, but when it's just me and my child alone, I feel like we're missing out without some guide posts to point us in the right direction.

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I was thinking last night about that exact quote and thinking I need to pull out my copy of Deconstructing Penguins again. I remember feeling frustrated by it because on the one hand it goes against SWB's recommendation to leave literary analysis alone when kids are little but on the other hand the examples they gave of insights the kids in their book clubs had were astounding.

 

I agree that the practice of the theory is difficult and hasn't really gotten off the ground for us. I have used some Glencoe lit guides with success!

 

I was also looking at Teaching the Classics last night and wondering if it would help of if it is just more of the same that i already have in DP.

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Is this book/DVD the Teaching The Classics that everyone is talking about? 

 

Also, I think it is fair and normal that if you want to teach a book, say, WIzard of Oz, that you first do some googling!  "Wizard of Oz themes" or "Wizard of oz literary analysis" and see what comes up.  Part of "joining the great conversation" is listening to what other people have already said about a book- we don't need to reinvent the wheel each time.  :-)  We can read a few people's well written research papers or articles on a book, take some notes, then discuss the ideas that come out of this research directly with the child.  It's not cheating! 

 

If you were taking a lit course and reading The Sound and the Fury, class discussion might involve some 20 students and 1 professor all contributing ideas.  You wouldn't have to deconstruct the book all on your own. 

 

Some things we don't even know to look for, until someone more educated mentions it- events in politics/history/author's personal life that come out in the writing, social customs from the time period we are unaware of, etc. 

 

You can also get annotated copies of many works. 

 

 

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I agree that I don't know how to implement Deconstructing Penguins well, but it is the book that got me motivated to learn better how to analyze and discuss literature.

 

I love the Teaching the Classics structure, but again "I" am not the best at implementing it. We've gotten better about being more intentional with literature, but I wouldn't say that I'm good at leading those discussions. My oldest has taken a class online taught by Adam and Missy Andrews and it was excellent and it amazes me how much he can take and apply to discussions we have as a family.

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I am halfway through Deconstructing Penguins and the whole time I've been reading, I keep thinking about this article:

 

http://www.avi-writer.com/blog/2014/03/making-the-case/

 

I love that, and it's so true. I get mail from people who find meaning and symbolism in my books that I never actually put there. Sometimes I try to convince myself that my subconscious put it there, but the truth is everybody's going to take different things from books based on their own experiences that, in most cases, weren't intended by the author. My publisher also writes reading group guides with questions like, "What is Arnold saying to us about loyalty and forgiveness?" And I always want to answer, "I have no idea."

 

I think especially for children's books, for the most part the author is really just writing a story. They may have a moral they want to teach, but if so it's usually spelled out pretty clearly, as the morals are in Wizard of Oz. If you want to read more into every story, that's great, there are good lessons that can be learned from discussions of every book. But really you can make up your own lessons and themes and they'll be every bit as valid. (With that said, I've put DP on hold at the library because you've gotten me curious...I'll come back to this after reading it.)

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I read Deconstructing Penguin,s and I have watched the DVDs of Teaching the Classics.  It is a good place to start to understand literature analysis.  But I have come to believe that a good book will affect people in a variety of ways.  We all see the themes through our own experience and wants and needs and hopes and dreams.  I teach a lit analysis at a co op class, and I run it very loosely based on Deconstructing Penguins.  It feels natural to allow the discussion to flow organically.  There are times when I ask questions expecting an answer, and sometimes I do get that answer.  But sometimes not.  The kids have interesting ideas of their own, and they didn't read anything about what they were "supposed" to get from a book.  :)  I am probably "doing it wrong", but I run the class in a way that values everyone's feedback, allows the students to disagree with me as the teacher (really just a facilitator, actually) and hopefully empowers them to begin to make connections more naturally when they read independently.

 

I suspect that many people shy away from literature analysis because they feel inadequate, but, unlike math, it is not precise.  It is messy and not specific and lovely. 

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I run the class in a way that values everyone's feedback, allows the students to disagree with me as the teacher (really just a facilitator, actually) and hopefully empowers them to begin to make connections more naturally when they read independently.

 

 

I think that's the most important part of it all, to teach kids that they CAN learn things from reading, take things away from books that might be more meaningful than just the story. It's great if they can develop the skill now, and then continue throughout their lives reading good books and digging deeper to learn about themselves and the world. (ETA: That sounds sappy re-reading it, but I really feel like I've learned more from reading than from anything I've ever studied.)

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I think that's the most important part of it all, to teach kids that they CAN learn things from reading, take things away from books that might be more meaningful than just the story. It's great if they can develop the skill now, and then continue throughout their lives reading good books and digging deeper to learn about themselves and the world.

I agree.  :) 

 

We are currently reading The Giver, which one students says she does not like, as it is disturbing.  I asked the class if they think that some books are meant to be disturbing and just let that question sit there.  It was a new and shocking concept for them, I could tell.  The student immediately rejected it, but it has been presented so a foundation has been laid.

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. The kids have interesting ideas of their own, and they didn't read anything about what they were "supposed" to get from a book. :) I am probably "doing it wrong", but I run the class in a way that values everyone's feedback, allows the students to disagree with me as the teacher (really just a facilitator, actually) and hopefully empowers them

it is a great gift to give children the ability to disagree. To disagree respectfully and in a safe environment is a wonderful thing. as our children grow they will need to be able to disagree with others.

Don't sell yourself short, there is no "wrong way"to facilitate a book discussion. :-)

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I love that, and it's so true. I get mail from people who find meaning and symbolism in my books that I never actually put there. Sometimes I try to convince myself that my subconscious put it there, but the truth is everybody's going to take different things from books based on their own experiences that, in most cases, weren't intended by the author. My publisher also writes reading group guides with questions like, "What is Arnold saying to us about loyalty and forgiveness?" And I always want to answer, "I have no idea."

 

I think especially for children's books, for the most part the author is really just writing a story. They may have a moral they want to teach, but if so it's usually spelled out pretty clearly, as the morals are in Wizard of Oz. If you want to read more into every story, that's great, there are good lessons that can be learned from discussions of every book. But really you can make up your own lessons and themes and they'll be every bit as valid. (With that said, I've put DP on hold at the library because you've gotten me curious...I'll come back to this after reading it.)

I *want* to understand this completely. to back away from books for a moment... I can look at the way my husband parents. I can see how he learned those skills and traits from his father. I can also see how his father learned to be a dad despite his father dying at a young age. the way my husband interacts with the world is a direct result of the experience's he and his family have gone through over the years. knowing those things helps me to see the truth in what he speaks and what he writes. he is not separate from his past.

when I come to a book, often the author just wants to tell a story; but understanding where the author comes from adds to that story. maybe it changes how I view a subject in light of your experiences?

Maybe not. I'm certainly not a literary analyzer, nor am I an author.

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when I come to a book, often the author just wants to tell a story; but understanding where the author comes from adds to that story. maybe it changes how I view a subject in light of your experiences?

 

I guess it's true, to a point. Authors can only write genuinely about emotions they've had, their view of the world probably infuses into everything, so when you read their books you're getting a glimpse inside their head. But IMO the important thing isn't even to understand how an author's past weaves into his books, I think it's more important to look at how the books affect you and weave into your own experiences, and help you interpret your own life.

 

And even more important, especially for children's lit, to just enjoy the story. I've been through hard things in my life, and I know some of that pain comes through in my stories. If readers knew my past I'm sure they'd see things I don't even realize are there. But I don't write them with the intention of having readers see those things specifically, it's just the place my stories and voice come from. The most important thing to me is to write an engaging, absorbing story, and if it affects readers in some way that I can't even imagine, that's fine. But not if it takes away from enjoyment of and immersion in the story.

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I am halfway through Deconstructing Penguins and the whole time I've been reading, I keep thinking about this article:

 

http://www.avi-writer.com/blog/2014/03/making-the-case/

 

Thanks for linking that.

 

I had mixed feelings the whole way through DP. However, when I read the last book analysis (was it White Fang or Call of the Wild?) I got really upset. I COMPLETELY disagreed with what they said London was trying to do with that book. Now, I don't know if I am right or not (and unfortunately I don't remember the details anymore), but it turned me off to the whole idea behind DP.

 

A quote from Avi in the link above:

There are many things one can teach about a book: its context, language, style, construction, its historical moment, and so forth. The list is long, and productive. But to teach as if a text is written in code—a code only a teacher can decipher—is to tell students that they cannot understand what is being read. It makes readers feel dumb. It tells them they cannot understand literature. Most importantly, if one teaches literature in such a fashion, it robs a student of the joy of reading on his or her own terms and experience.

 

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I guess it's true, to a point. Authors can only write genuinely about emotions they've had, their view of the world probably infuses into everything, so when you read their books you're getting a glimpse inside their head. But IMO the important thing isn't even to understand how an author's past weaves into his books, I think it's more important to look at how the books affect you and weave into your own experiences, and help you interpret your own life.

In our lit analysis class, we read A Christmas Story.  As part of the study of the book, I told the kids about the life of Charles Dickens and how his experiences shaped his writing.  I think that this is very relevant with older works (due to the kids not having a frame of reference for that sort of poverty, debtor's prison, kids dropping out of school in elementary and going to work to support the family).  In this context, the Cratchit family and Tiny Tim can be understood in a different light.  I also described the concept of serial writing for a newspaper/magazine and how authors were paid by the word.  :)

 

But that is the only book this year in which I have stressed the author's biography while studying the work since the other authors we have studied have been 20th century. 

 

(Not disagreeing with you - just using your post as a jumping off point for my random thoughts.)

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Thanks for linking that.

 

I had mixed feelings the whole way through DP. However, when I read the last book analysis (was it White Fang or Call of the Wild?) I got really upset. I COMPLETELY disagreed with what they said London was trying to do with that book. Now, I don't know if I am right or not (and unfortunately I don't remember the details anymore), but it turned me off to the whole idea behind DP.

I agree.  After reading DP, I took what I needed and left the rest, so to speak, which was a very broad brush outline of doing lit analysis.  We discuss the action, the protagonist and the antagonist.  The kids really enjoy this.  But there are no "right or wrong" answers.  I don't guide them in this so much as facilitate the discussion/debate as kids give different viewpoints.  Sometimes they are very passionate about their views.  It's fun.  :)

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I agree.  After reading DP, I took what I needed and left the rest, so to speak, which was a very broad brush outline of doing lit analysis.  We discuss the action, the protagonist and the antagonist.  The kids really enjoy this.  But there are no "right or wrong" answers.  I don't guide them in this so much as facilitate the discussion/debate as kids give different viewpoints.  Sometimes they are very passionate about their views.  It's fun.  :)

 

Yeah, I like that sort of discussion. The "code to crack" mentality really drives my crazy. I'm glad I don't remember what DP said about the London book, because at the time it wrecked the book for me. Every once in a while it is a nice thing, having a sieve for a brain. :tongue_smilie:

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I had mixed feelings the whole way through DP. However, when I read the last book analysis (was it White Fang or Call of the Wild?) I got really upset. I COMPLETELY disagreed with what they said London was trying to do with that book. Now, I don't know if I am right or not (and unfortunately I don't remember the details anymore), but it turned me off to the whole idea behind DP.

 

I felt like that with "The Giver" analysis in DP, where they categorically stated that the protagonist should not have run away from the situation at the end of the book but should have stayed and worked to improve things.  What! sometimes running away is the best choice available.    And there was definitely a "one right interpretation' attitude that left a bad taste in my mouth even though I got some good ideas from the book too.

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I felt like that with "The Giver" analysis in DP, where they categorically stated that the protagonist should not have run away from the situation at the end of the book but should have stayed and worked to improve things.  What! sometimes running away is the best choice available.    And there was definitely a "one right interpretation' attitude that left a bad taste in my mouth even though I got some good ideas from the book too.

 

Interesting, I had forgotten that (probably because I read DP a long time before I read The Giver, LOL!) I'd disagree too. I think he did the right thing in trying to save the child's life AND that his actions would be a catalyst for causing change.

 

For me, we read first and foremost for enjoyment, and sometimes to learn something, or to stretch ourselves and make ourselves grow. 

 

it is a great gift to give children the ability to disagree. To disagree respectfully and in a safe environment is a wonderful thing. as our children grow they will need to be able to disagree with others.

Don't sell yourself short, there is no "wrong way"to facilitate a book discussion. :-)

 

I agree :-).

 

Above, someone posted this quote from the linked article:

 

Quote

There are many things one can teach about a book: its context, language, style, construction, its historical moment, and so forth. The list is long, and productive. But to teach as if a text is written in code—a code only a teacher can decipher—is to tell students that they cannot understand what is being read. It makes readers feel dumb. It tells them they cannot understand literature. Most importantly, if one teaches literature in such a fashion, it robs a student of the joy of reading on his or her own terms and experience.

 

 

 

Agreeing here too. Everything shouldn't be a secret code. Sometimes there are mysteries either so intriguing or so obvious that they should be discussed though--that happens for me when I read a title like Sing Down the Moon, but never hear a reference to it in the book. Why is that the title? The answer was absolutely worth digging for, and both of my (then grade-school-aged children) were able to find the answer after some thought, and with just a little help. Similar things happened for us with The Wolves of Willoughby Chase (yet the "wolves" are a minor part of the story--why is that the title?). Again, that search, and the resulting journey into some of the other ways in which nature metaphors were used in the book, was fun, engaging, and created great discussion. (Walls and secret passage-ways was another interesting discussion for this book!) Not the type of discussion where teacher lectures, students listen and think, "I'll never get this." But (hopefully!) the type where students learn...asking questions, being curious, and spending some time reflecting on a book is worthwhile. 

 

I don't enjoy the type of analysis that seeks to pick apart every last element in a book (and I question the wisdom of some of those thoughts!). But I do treasure curiosity and uncovering mysteries, and that's what I took away from DP. How can we help children learn to ask their own questions, to think and form their own ideas, and then to test them to see which ones hold weight and which ones don't really work? 

 

But now I'll have to go back and re-read DP, because I didn't remember them coming to "right" or "wrong" answers about things, I just remember the process of exploration and how I wanted to inspire that more (and how I wanted resources that helped with that kind of exploration RATHER than "everything's symbolic and pick it apart until you are sick to death of it" type approaches I've seen at times.)  When we read Scarlet Letter this year...you bet I went looking for a bit of help teasing out some of the details! 

 

 

I love that, and it's so true. I get mail from people who find meaning and symbolism in my books that I never actually put there. 

 

LOL, have heard that from more than one author!

 

Merry :-)

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I love that, and it's so true. I get mail from people who find meaning and symbolism in my books that I never actually put there. Sometimes I try to convince myself that my subconscious put it there, but the truth is everybody's going to take different things from books based on their own experiences that, in most cases, weren't intended by the author. My publisher also writes reading group guides with questions like, "What is Arnold saying to us about loyalty and forgiveness?" And I always want to answer, "I have no idea."

 

 

That's so funny.

 

What books have you written?

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But now I'll have to go back and re-read DP, because I didn't remember them coming to "right" or "wrong" answers about things, I just remember the process of exploration and how I wanted to inspire that more (and how I wanted resources that helped with that kind of exploration RATHER than "everything's symbolic and pick it apart until you are sick to death of it" type approaches I've seen at times.) When we read Scarlet Letter this year...you bet I went looking for a bit of help teasing out some of the details!

 

I agree. I thought that DP was more about open-ended discussion with room for lots of different insights.

 

I just read it a couple months ago, but I wasn't in a situation where I could really take notes (on an airplane with littles), and now I have returned it to the library. But I actually wasn't too overwhelmed by it. I'm going to check it out from the library again and just kind of outline the path their discussions followed. They ask the kids who the protagonist is and who the antagonist is. They give great tips for helping kids figure that out in the less obvious stories. They talk about what the protagonist wants and what is getting in his way. They talk about the setting and why the author might have chosen it--what does it contribute? Etc, etc. I plan to just skim through the chapters and jot down these little guidelines.

 

I personally disagree that we should read just to enjoy the story. I'm not saying we pick apart every symbol, but when you're talking about these bigger questions (What is getting in the protagonist's way? What kind of mood does this setting evoke?), symbols are a natural extension of that discussion (What is it about the setting that evokes that mood?). And I really, truly believe that it ENHANCES the reader's experience of the great story. I think that's kind of the point, actually.

 

I also don't think that literary analysis in general, or the DP approach specifically, tells kids what they need to think or that they can't read and enjoy literature without a teacher. In my experience, a good teacher/facilitator is simply guiding the discussion with good *questions*, not answers. Those questions teach the student that they CAN find layers of meaning in a great story.

 

ETA: One thing I really like about the kind of discussion the authors of DP are describing is that it's something that happened just once, at a book club meeting, after all the kids had already read and enjoyed the story on their own. It's not like they were picking it apart as they went along (which is the practice that I think can really kill one's love of literature--it sure as heck killed mine in high school!). For some reason, that lifted some kind of weight for me when it comes to literary analysis. It told me that yes, we CAN just read through the book. And when we have finished and enjoyed it for the good story, THEN we can start thinking through all these other questions, experiencing the book more fully.

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