SCM, Ambleside or Milestones Academy?

[vaquitita]

I am currently using Ambleside (just finishing up our second year) and I really like it. But I find myself looking over SCM again, because it would be nice to have the kids in the same history rotation. But then, I don't want to use SCM. I don't like that it spends three years on ancient history and I don't like the book choices as much. Someone needs to write SCM style lesson plans for AO. Lol. :D

[stripe]

Can't you just have all the kids on the same Ambleside rotation?

[lorisuewho]

Isn't there a huge data base of book choices over at SCM? I didn't think you would be tied in to specific books.

[Hunter]

Have you seen Milestone Academy History?

http://www.milestonesacademy.com/Site/Family_History_Rotation_%28Elementary_Years%29.html

[KeriJ]

I've found that it is really easy to substitute books with SCM.  It really is meant to be used as a guide...not detailed lesson plans.  You have a lot of flexibility.

[Jane Elliot]

Have you seen Milestone Academy History?

http://www.milestonesacademy.com/Site/Family_History_Rotation_%28Elementary_Years%29.html

 

I don't remember seeing this site before, Hunter, but it kind of looks like this person cut and pasted the AO years and made a few changes without citing AO (at least I didn't see AO cited anywhere). Isn't that a copyright violation?

[Jenn in CA]

I am currently using Ambleside (just finishing up our second year) and I really like it. But I find myself looking over SCM again, because it would be nice to have the kids in the same history rotation. But then, I don't want to use SCM. I don't like that it spends three years on ancient history and I don't like the book choices as much. Someone needs to write SCM style lesson plans for AO. Lol. :D

 

Maybe that someone is you! 

 

Your kids are close in age. It wouldn't be difficult to combine them into an AO year.

 

I'm with you. I love the AO books, and I don't care for the 3 yrs of ancient history of SCM. But I love the look of columns with all the years together on a page per day.

 

It would not be hard (just time-consuming) to put AO together for your family in such a format.

 

Then fwd to me. :D

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

found this in another thread on WTM:

People get so worried about combining kids to save time. It gets ridiculous how people will stretch something made for one age group all the way to a group it is NOT made for, all in fear of not being able to "keep kids together." News Flash--even if the same subject is studied (for example, the same time period in history), there's no way kids of ALL ages would be doing exactly.the.same.thing. It may feel like they are, but in essence, anyone with kids separated by several years will be doing two different "curricula" because the activities and goals will be so different.

 

This is sort of what I've been thinking as I try to work out how to combine my kids. I may end up making up four different curriculum's each year, to keep them on the same history period.

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[Homemama2]

In the past we've combined AO with my boys who are 2 years apart. However, we only did this for history (for science we didn't use AO and for literature they used their own levels). What I did was add in some beautiful feet books for my younger guy when books were too hard-(he was doing his older brothers history ). It worked ok for us, but that was partly bc younger boy is advanced and older brother is not. In fact I have my 4th grader in yr 4 and my 6th grader in yr 5 so there is not a huge gap between them. We also did one year of SCM. I liked the SCM schedule but we didn't care for the books.

I'm thinking of splitting them into their own years for next year. There is not much reason to keep them together once they are independent readers unless you are doing a lot of readalouds.

fWIW we took a detour from AO this year to use Sonlight and we won't be going back to that. I thought I could combine them easier with a program like Sonlight but after AO it was a major step backwards as far as reading level. In hindsight I should have looked at some of the books instead of just placing them according to where they fell in the history cycle.

[Kfamily]

I'm working on a curriculum now, but it is a ton of work and I still have a very long way to go. I did create a Level 1 guide for the Ancients which allows you to combine roughly ages 5/6 to ages 10/11. I'm also working on a guide for Level 2 which would be for late elementary/middle school with extensions for high school. For now, everything at my blog is free to use, so you are welcome to print and use what you would like from it. I do lean heavily towards CM, but I combine the curriculum with classical ideas too. Also, if you wanted to use my curriculum by grade, I'd be happy to help you work out ways to combine in as many books and subjects as you would like. This would leave you to combine in almost everything but leaving a select number of books personalized for each child. As you were quoting above, at some point there must be some differences to take into account that children at different ages need different skills and ideas.

 

I'm not sure what time period in history you were hoping to study but here is the Level 1 guide:

 

http://amindinthelight.blogspot.com/p/time-period-ancients_8.html

 

I'm working on combinations for Medieval and Modern too.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

You know the hardest thing? All these living book curriculum's use a lot of the same books, but in different years! :D

[vaquitita]

OT: ooh this looks good...

http://bfbooks.com/A-Childs-First-Book-of-American-History-PB

 

 

[Another Lynn]

After reading this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/504150-if-you-dont-combine-your-kids/?hl=%2Bhistory+%2Bcombining&do=findComment&comment=5475685  I'm leaning towards just keeping my kids separate.

 

This http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/504968-help-with-charlotte-mason-proscons-curriculum/?hl=%2Bhistory+%2Bcombining&do=findComment&comment=5486858  is a very interesting thread on CM.

 

I've read some of CM's books (1 and 2, parts of 3 and 4) I've also read TWTM. I've used AO years 1 and 2 and liked them. I like OIS and CHOW better than SOTW (I've skimmed vol. 1). But when I look over the later years, I don't like it too much, but it would be hard for me to say why. I liked the high school plan in TWTM and plan to use some of that when we get there. The more I look at AO the less sure I am about it. But I'm not sure how or what I would switch to. It's hard to switch mid stream. though really, my oldest is only in 2nd. but i feel more mid-stream because i've collected most books through year 4 and even some in 5 and 6 (though those are more literature that I would use with anything). And it does make it so much easier to have a starting point, iykwim? I may tweak it, but at least I have a spine to build from. But I do second guess whether I should have picked something else as my starting point. But again SCM appeals to me less, and when I started that and Mater Amblis where the only other ones I knew of. I can't remember exactly why I didn't go with Mater Amblis, it may have had something to do with all the books being OOP? I like real books.

 

This year we used AO 2 and I've dropped Trial and Triumph, Parables of Nature and Pilgrim's Progress (I want my kids to read this, just not at such a young age). Next year I was planning to use AO 3, I have most of the books already, but need to decide what to do about This Country of Ours. I'm not sure that I want to use it. I should read it I guess to decide. What options are there to use instead? Do the Synge books cover this? or maybe Guerber's Story of the 13 Colonies and Story of the Great Republic? Ack.  Even if I keep using AO as my starting point, I'm not sure at what point to move away from it. Sigh...  At this point I wonder if it might be easier to design my own.

 

And I find myself wanting to add things, like Holling's book of Indians and Jean Fritz's Around the World in a Hundred Years, and they are hard to fit into AO for some reason. Maybe more because I've had a mindset of "I'm doing AO" and I just need a more flexible attitude. :D

 

For alternatives to TCOO, Guerber is worth a look.  Also, we're enjoying (so far) Makers of the Americas.  You would have to find it used, but it might be worth it. 

 

[Coco_Clark]

You know the hardest thing? All these living book curriculum's use a lot of the same books, but in different years! :D

 

I've always liked that about looking at different CM curriculums. I feel like it gives me the freedom to read them when I think is best, since there is no "right" year.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[claluck]

I used alot of the ideas for Milestones for the last few years.  She basically combines history and science.  But uses many similar books from the AO book lists.  Basically the spine for history is combined as a family.  Whatever you choose.  WE have used different books and enjoy SOTW books for younger years.  We make the difference in what the different ages do with the lessons.  From short discussions to written narrations.  So while they read the same information they are expected different outputs.  Same with Science.  The main difference being that there are sort of rabbit trail books in each area as well.  Other books that kids read independently and give them more breadth in the subjects.  I really enjoy having all the kids learning the same part of history.  Even if they are reading very different levels of spines I like that we can have dinner discussions and people can share all of what they are learning about a certain topic at the same time.  Plus the older kids get excited to share with the younger ones what they know about a subject.  I think it brings a bit more unified atmosphere to our home to have the same general topics history and science, even if the extra readings and such are very different.  

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Can someone who uses milestones explain it to me? There's a family history and science rotation, but then on each year/grade there are history, biography and science books listed too.

[Hunter]

I don't think booklists can be copyrighted, just like recipe ingredient lists cannot be copyrighted. I think it is wrong for anyone to copy and paste a booklist and call it their own. I don't think Milestone did that. I think they did certainly START with those lists, but don't know that for sure, and I think they say that. Anyone using the original CM books and Beautiful Feet guides would come up with the same list. And anyone purchasing Yesterday's Classics will come up with similar lists.

 

I feel for AO, that they are not always given credit for their work, but they are also asking for people to go beyond what is lawful and making accusations without proof.

 

Vasquitita, I know it feels scary not to have an EXACT long term plan, but sometimes we waste so much time planning that we get a whole lot less done. The Robinson idea that the children do some math, writing and reading each day can work with AO. Just read from the AO booklist, books that are interesting and age appropriate. They are just books. They can be read in any order, skipped, substituted, and supplemented.

 

I'm not chastising you. I have been doing what you are doing since the 90's and when I do this, learning goes down. When I start winging it, learning increases. Math, writing, books. Any books. Lots of books.

[claluck]

Sometimes I feel like I do such a mish mash.  I actually at one time printed out all the recomendations from Milestones and AO and a couple other sites.  Looked at the books for each year and selected which ones I prefered to do at certain grades.  I pick a time period to do for the history rotation and actually have used the synge books and SOTW.  My children enjoy both.  I use that as sort of a spine for most ages until high school. I kind of took the idea more than anything.  For example this year I decided to do a US history year focus so I have a spine for my older two and a spine for my younger two.  Somewhat based on some the reccomendations on the two sites as well as some from this forum.  Then my older boys are also reading more difficult Biographies as recommended from Milestones. My younger two are reading a couple smaller books with me as per other appropriate recs (since they are beginning readers).  You can look at the lists for your childs age/grade and go up and down a year at least and get a fairly appropriate book list going.  So even if the spines dont line up the idea they are studying the same time period still makes a difference.

 

Same for science we do a spine curriculum with the whole family.  This year we did a human anatomy course.  The older two used Apologia (I didn't love it) and the younger ones used some simpler books to cover human anatomy.  So they have all been learning about the body all year.  They are all using their own nature study books per grade year recs and the olders are reading science biographies as well.

 

We also pick a geography focus for the year like they do on milestones.  I LOVE this.  It is so much fun. Last year we did China, This year we did the Holy Lands for the first half of the year and North America for the second half (since it matched so well with our history focus).  Next year we are planning on South America and Central America.  The way it gets the most exciting is I buy a map on amazon and put it on my table with a large sheet of plastic over it.  SO it is always there to refer to but we also spend a ton of time discussion it during meals.  So much FUN!

 

[claluck]

I agree with what hunter said as well.  If you use these lists as a general guide.  Coordinate subjects to match across the different levels of your children.  Do writing and Math on level with their abilities and what they need to work on, then have them read everything.  My kids LOVE to read anything that is at reading level, slightly above level, and easily anything below level for them.  They just enjoy reading. It is simply entertaining and educational.  Yes we have had books we have to muddle through but for the most part they like almost everything.  

[KeriJ]

For alternatives to TCOO, Guerber is worth a look.  Also, we're enjoying (so far) Makers of the Americas.  You would have to find it used, but it might be worth it. 

 

 

Lynn, I have that book (Makers..) and was planning to use it in the fall.  Can you tell me more about how you are using it and with what ages?  (sorry for the hijack)

[momto2blessings]

Just wanted to note that some people who want to complete ancients in one year and use SCM skip their Bible readings (can sub in your own). It's neat how ancient history is tied into the OT...why it takes 3 years to complete ancients! But if you didn't want to spend that long, you can complete ancients in 3 years if you just do the history/geography assignments. And I agree that it's not difficult to sub out books (but of course that's taking away some from the ease of the family guides:)

[Another Lynn]

Lynn, I have that book (Makers..) and was planning to use it in the fall.  Can you tell me more about how you are using it and with what ages?  (sorry for the hijack)

 

Well <insert sheepish look> I'm really just reading it aloud in the morning ~3 times/week.  I'm reading aloud to my 10yo, 8yo, and 5yo.  My 12 yo is usually within earshot (which is intentional as I think his memory of the last time we covered American history is weak) and he sometimes adds a comment or question if something catches his attention.  I like some of the questions/suggestions at the end of the units, but we haven't gotten far enough yet to to try any of them. 

 

Not sure that helps much.  Fwiw, I do like the way it reads.  It's not as detailed as TCOO, but it is interesting, and includes a few tidbits I hadn't heard before.  So far, I like it better than Eggleston (though it's been so long since I read his books I don't remember specifically why I didn't want to try them again.)

 

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[Hunter]

I have nothing of value to say, but :grouphug:

[stripe]

Ack. I tried to ask about this over on AO's forums and, even though I posted in the 'combining multiple years' forum, I got jumped all over for thinking of altering AO. :/

Yeah, I'm not surprised. But AO isn't the Word of God, and you're not exactly tinkering with the Ten Commandments, so I say, it's not like it's a sin you're contemplating. 

 

I find it amusing that everything is supposed to match so carefully as this seems contrary to CM's distaste for unit studies, which she felt are stultifying. Her view of some coordinated studies using Robinson Crusoe (in vol 6, p 116-117) follows:

 

The conscientious, ingenious and laborious teachers who produce these 'concentration series' are little aware that each such lesson is an act of lese majesté. The children who are capable of and eager for a wide range of knowledge and literary expression are reduced to inanities; a lifelong ennui is set up; every approach to knowledge suggests avenues for boredom, and the children's minds sicken and perish long before their school-days come to an end.

 

Really, this is your decision; do what works for you.

[Amy Jo]

I don't really see the big hoopla about history. It is one subject. Saying that on the WTM board will probably get me shot at dawn. :D (Yes, I am aware that wouldn't be a popular statement on the AO forum either! Just my opinion.) I would rather read literature with my kids to discuss. We had a lovely time, discussions, games, story-tellings, drawings, etc about The Hobbit. A lot more fun than King II had a war with King III and King III killed him. His son, King IV .... 

 

How many of the books in the mid years have you read? I mean, the Abigail Adams bio, for example, mentions the desire for her husband before they married, her baby dying, being separated from her children/husband, her son dying as an alcoholic, etc. I wouldn't want to read that too young, personally. I think the age it is scheduled for is good. Really, why not just do SCM, combine the ancient years as someone suggested, and then just use AO to pull books from? I think starting with a curriculum that is combined, then beefing it up is going to be easier. Especially since AO kind of has a 6 year history rotation, not 4. So there are only 2 levels of books.

 

Like Stripe said, it is entirely your choice. :) And it isn't easy. Many here have spent a lot of time trying to find the best course. I really do hope you can find the best path. And you may just have to try something! Perhaps you could use the summer and plan out a 6-8 week combined unit and see how that works for you?

 

I went through this summer before last. I made lists to compare the Great Books Academy, Latin Centered Curriculum/Memoria Press, Ambleside Online, Milestones, SCM, and Higher Up & Further In. I agonized over it. It came down to my style - I prefer to tutor. I am horrible at group stuff. Now, I'm working on doing it still, because I think it is important, but I don't want to stake the base of their education on group things. What is your style? Your children's style? How much time do you have?

 

I hope you can come to a decision that you have peace with.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[Amy Jo]

I didn't mean to imply that Abigail Adams was inappropriate, only that it assumes a certain amount of maturity in the student. It would be a shame, I think, to edit anything out, especially for your daughter. I'm glad you've figured out what to do.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[marisolstice]

Amy Jo, are your lists shareable? That's something I'm planning to do this summer, but if you've already done it... :)

 

We are finishing up Year 1 of AO, so I don't have much to contribute, but I'm tweaking more heavily as we go along. I'm trying to get to the root of why certain books were selected, and then see if there is a more modern sub (for science) and a more American/world and modern sub (for history/geography) because I don't see the point in using books that are 100+ years old just because.

 

Anyway, I'm listening in since I have lots of kids close in age and plan to do lots more tweaking :)

[Amy Jo]

I'm sorry but I can't find the lists. I *think* I mainly used copy & paste, I compared both the books used as well as the average weekly workload. I love to tweak, but I ran out of time. So I content myself with designing our group time while the kids do their separate AO years. (And that's still a lot - artist, composer, Shakespeare, drawing/painting, memory work, various drills/skills, paper sloyd & crafts, lots of literature, Bible, nature study, other living books I want to throw in... I'm content that I've fed both the 'get er done' side and the tweaking, creative side of myself.)

[rainbird2]

Resurrecting an old thread...

 

Vaquitita, if you have a moment, would you mind updating on what you decided to go with?  I know several moms (including myself) who are trying to juggle the early AO years, and it's been too much.  Did you find something that worked for you?

 

Thanks.  :)

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[rainbird2]

 As I plan for next year, and beyond, I am now using AO as a great book list and no longer following it as written.

 

 

I plan to do the same thing as well.  I also think I will combine mine for history, science/nature study, Spanish, etc.. 

 

I have always thought that I could possibly do AO if I had two children, so I'm going to pick and choose and combine the first two and the next two so I essentially have 'two students' in Ambleside.  When they are a lot more independent, I will give them more of the AO books for their level to read on their own.  DS in AO3 will do AO1 history and science with his sister this year.  I don't think he will care at all.

 

I feel like I'm always tweaking....goes with the territory, huh?  :)

 

Thanks for the response!

[Holly]

I'd like to add an "update" even though I wasn't one of the original posters.   :lol:

 

We used SCM's Ancient Egypt, then moved onto MOH 1 (which ended up taking us 2 years to complete--we had a baby and a job change/move in that time).  I've decided to switch back to SCM, starting with Middle Ages (Module 4).  I'll be reading Peril and Peace to my DC in August since there is a gap of early church history which I think is too important to skip.   The irony of me switching to MOH to avoid a 6 year cycle is that we will have completed a 6 year cycle anyway by the time we finish.   :huh:  

 

My plans for the next time we get to ancients is to use a combination of Greenleaf Press and SCM.  We'll go through the Greenleaf Guide to the OT (we'd previously added this to SCM's Bible readings), going through a lesson per day.  I'll spend one term on ancient Egypt, one on Greece, and one on Rome.  We'll use the Famous Men series (with Greenleaf guides) and add in some of the scheduled SCM independent reading selections.  I'm planning on using Visits to Africa and Visits to the Middle East--we'll either cut out some lessons or use it twice a week to fit in both books.  I like the idea of using SCM's Stuff They Left Behind, but I'm not sure how I'd incorporate it...maybe we'd just pick one to use during the year.  I think these are my plans, but it will be another 3 years before I have to worry about it.  ;)  I thought this would give an idea of a possible way to use SCM in 4 years.  

 

Those of you interested in AO should check out this post if you haven't already seen it: http://afterthoughtsblog.net/2015/05/virginia-lees-post.html

I don't ever see us using the complete AO schedule, but I thought this would be an interesting way to complete it if you have several young DC.