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Calendars and days of week with dyscalculia


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Ok, don't laugh, but I know how to teach a calendar and days of the week, honest.  I worked in K5 for three years, for pity's sake.  You stand by the calendar, put on the number, sing the days of the week and months of the year, and eventually they tell you they're wasting their time because they get it.

 

Not ds.

 

He never really has seemed to get it (or the idea that some days are different from others, transitioning).  Now he's using his Double Shutter game and turning down the numbers to keep track of days.  He asked how many days there were in a week (7), and he has been tracking them.  So today he wakes up and asks what day it is, if it's Day 6.  The actual name doesn't matter, just the number, lol.

 

What do I do?  Is this somewhere in RB in the print book?  

 

It's almost like he isn't ready for the concept of a monthly calendar yet because he doesn't get the idea of a WEEK.  Is that crazy?  Is that what's going on??  So then I need to do a week calendar on the wall and do that with him till it clicks maybe?  Maybe make labels for the names for the days and let him do matching?  

 

Btw, I think it's astonishing that he's even getting the idea that there are 7 and keeping track like that.  That's kind of a sophisticated way to think it through, seems to me, for a kid who up until a month ago couldn't tell you the number of dots on a single die without counting.

 

And, duh, we can put pictures on for routines like a church for Sunday, trash can for Saturdays, etc.

 

I keep adding this, sorry.  He knows the words for the days of the week.  I'm just not sure the words are connected to the other things in his brain.

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Are you using a pocket chart? If so, will he start to see that there is a pattern to every Sunday having a church picture, or some such thing by it?

 

Is it likely that he'll catch the pattern of what a week is by seeing that it's a chunk of time that repeats, and that the day names are just ways of talking about it? And then that months repeat into a year? Does he realize that someone called these chunks of time months, weeks, day, etc., and that it's based on the earth going around the sun, the earth spinning on it's axis/sunrise/sunset (or in the case of a week, that it seems to be a pattern based on the Biblical account)? In other words, can he get the concept of time and then relax because the words are just labels that people use to talk about it. It seems as though you are expecting him to learn this linearly (which may indeed be the way he prefers to learn). No problem, but I would definitely try a top-down approach before pulling back and sticking to just day names only. Now, if he gets the top down approach as a framework for the ideas of each piece of time, you'll still have to stick to days names and such until he actually learns them.

 

If you think this would work, I think I would start with the biggest chunk of time he can handle, and go with what it's tied to in his mind. Years might = birthdays and holidays, or the earth going around the sun. Then, I would use objects to show something that is made of smaller and larger components--maybe a skyscraper. The skyscraper is made of floors, the floors are made of rooms, etc. If you have a really elaborate tool box or sewing box where compartments fit into each other, that might do the same thing, and then he can play with it.

 

If you definitely know he is not a whole to parts learner, this probably won't work, but you never know. My son likes to take things whole to parts, do a little linear stuff, and then go back to the big picture view. Eventually the information and approaches meet in the middle. :-)

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From some of your other posts, I wonder if you think he is running into language troubles surrounding math concepts. There is a couple of resources at great ideas for teaching that maybe helpful. Was thinking of this one for the whole idea of time passing and getting a better connection/understanding of that:

 

http://www.greatideasforteaching.com/SearchOurCatalog/ProductDetails/tabid/75/c/new-products/p/understanding-and-explaining-time-in-sequential-stories2/SearchValue/Math/Default.aspx

 

There is also one on great ideas by Marilyn Toomey for the language of math, I can't exactly remember it, but I do know our SLP used some of the sheets with ds.

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After working with DD (13) for many years on "time", things are finally starting to gel.  But it took us years to get here.  And I am starting to believe that while all the different ways I approached reading calendars/clocks/elapsed time, etc. did help, what also helped was maturity.  He is still very young, OhE.  Try different approaches.  But he may also just need a lot more time.

 

Best wishes....

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From some of your other posts, I wonder if you think he is running into language troubles surrounding math concepts. There is a couple of resources at great ideas for teaching that maybe helpful. Was thinking of this one for the whole idea of time passing and getting a better connection/understanding of that:

 

http://www.greatideasforteaching.com/SearchOurCatalog/ProductDetails/tabid/75/c/new-products/p/understanding-and-explaining-time-in-sequential-stories2/SearchValue/Math/Default.aspx

 

There is also one on great ideas by Marilyn Toomey for the language of math, I can't exactly remember it, but I do know our SLP used some of the sheets with ds.

Wow, see I was thinking in terms of math and it didn't click in my mind that this was connected to the apraxia.  You're right, the DeGaetano stuff is great.  I'm going to dig in with him (based on the samples of that) and see if that's what's going on...

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After working with DD (13) for many years on "time", things are finally starting to gel.  But it took us years to get here.  And I am starting to believe that while all the different ways I approached reading calendars/clocks/elapsed time, etc. did help, what also helped was maturity.  He is still very young, OhE.  Try different approaches.  But he may also just need a lot more time.

 

Best wishes....

Oh I know he's young, and I know it's normal to have no sense of time seemingly at age 5.  But Jenn is hitting on it.  It's a little odd even for a 5 yo.  Normally with K5er age you get some traction on these things.  To start to understand days and then not put a name to the day is odd.  Right now it's just day 5 or day 6.  That's not within the realm of normal development, whatever it is.  It's definitely quirky.  Considering we're having to work on other things, it's not shocking even though it's shocking.  Ok, it's just odd, no way around it, lol.  He's using Double Shutter for a calendar.  That's odd, lol.  Bright but odd.  :D

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Oh I know he's young, and I know it's normal to have no sense of time seemingly at age 5.  But Jenn is hitting on it.  It's a little odd even for a 5 yo.  Normally with K5er age you get some traction on these things.  To start to understand days and then not put a name to the day is odd.  Right now it's just day 5 or day 6.  That's not within the realm of normal development, whatever it is.  It's definitely quirky.  Considering we're having to work on other things, it's not shocking even though it's shocking.  Ok, it's just odd, no way around it, lol.  He's using Double Shutter for a calendar.  That's odd, lol.  Bright but odd.   :D

Well, actually, I was agreeing that it is outside the norm, but that time may help, too.  I guess I wasn't being very clear.  I'm sorry.  

 

DD may or may not be dyscalculic.  I don't know.  She certainly has always struggled with certain math concepts.  But three years of really, really poor instruction from her school teacher certainly didn't help her already weak math skills.  Her sense of time, reading calendars and clocks, all of that was just really off for years, though.  And looking back, it was obvious that things were way off as early as 4.  And with all the work we did to try and solidify those concepts, especially once we started homeschooling two years ago, it still wasn't really clicking much.  "Time" is just now starting to click more as a 13 year old.  And while all the extra instruction certainly played a factor, I think time and maturity have also made a difference in how her brain processes the information.

 

I agree, find things that may help get that click with your son.  Honestly, OhE, I applaud your efforts and your willingness to seek other sources and approaches.  You are so amazingly proactive! :)  I wish I had been more proactive on my own much earlier with helping DD with these concepts, instead of just trusting that whatever the school was using was sufficient and I should keep working with her using only their materials.  And I certainly regret all the time, money and effort we wasted the first year of homeschooling as we hopped from one curriculum to another.  But I also wanted to suggest that time, too, may be a factor.  Don't get discouraged that it will never happen if your son doesn't reach those Ah Ha moments for quite a while.  If he does, WONDERFUL.  But if he doesn't, it may just mean that time will also play a factor in this process.

 

Best wishes...

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Are you using a pocket chart? If so, will he start to see that there is a pattern to every Sunday having a church picture, or some such thing by it?

 

Is it likely that he'll catch the pattern of what a week is by seeing that it's a chunk of time that repeats, and that the day names are just ways of talking about it? And then that months repeat into a year? Does he realize that someone called these chunks of time months, weeks, day, etc., and that it's based on the earth going around the sun, the earth spinning on it's axis/sunrise/sunset (or in the case of a week, that it seems to be a pattern based on the Biblical account)? In other words, can he get the concept of time and then relax because the words are just labels that people use to talk about it. It seems as though you are expecting him to learn this linearly (which may indeed be the way he prefers to learn). No problem, but I would definitely try a top-down approach before pulling back and sticking to just day names only. Now, if he gets the top down approach as a framework for the ideas of each piece of time, you'll still have to stick to days names and such until he actually learns them.

 

If you think this would work, I think I would start with the biggest chunk of time he can handle, and go with what it's tied to in his mind. Years might = birthdays and holidays, or the earth going around the sun. Then, I would use objects to show something that is made of smaller and larger components--maybe a skyscraper. The skyscraper is made of floors, the floors are made of rooms, etc. If you have a really elaborate tool box or sewing box where compartments fit into each other, that might do the same thing, and then he can play with it.

 

If you definitely know he is not a whole to parts learner, this probably won't work, but you never know. My son likes to take things whole to parts, do a little linear stuff, and then go back to the big picture view. Eventually the information and approaches meet in the middle. :-)

I'm rereading your post and trying to think about this some more.  What's funny is the DeGaetano workbook actually takes a similar approach, in an odd sort of way.  It lays out the time concepts in charts and then creates scenarios to consider where they identify which time frame applies.  So in a sense they're doing what you're saying?  Also, in reality that's what the adorable book on How Much is a Million? we've been reading does.  So it was just taking me a while to catch on to what you were saying.  I hadn't really thought through how they connected as a whole and whether going to that big picture would help him.  Maybe I can find a book in that vein?  We've read some living math stuff on time, but it didn't really do this.  I'll keep looking.  What you're saying makes more sense now, after I had time to think about it.  :D

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My DD doesn't struggle with math at all other than speed - and she only got clock faces, the days of the weeks and months at a much older age than your son.  Being able to name off the months and do calculations on them (like 3 months from now) was at least 9 yo (maybe even very early 10).  Now she could sing a little month song and a week song when she was 4/5 but they were just songs to her - she didn't 'get' the idea of going through the days in the song to figure out what today was or what tomorrow would be.  So you might be hitting a bunch of different struggles bunching up together in this one area.

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OE, something that I would ask about, is his Pattern Recognition ability?

As the way that we represent time, uses layers of patterns.

Where the use of 60, 24, 7, 12 base number systems, for different time units.  Has logic of a pattern.

 

So that perhaps having him create Patterns, and understand how elements are organized to create patterns?

Could then be transferred to understanding our way of representing time?

 

 

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If DS struggled with months and days of the week, I am not aware or it.  He sat in a reg classroom, so his days were filled with specific day of the week activities, such as art class Tuesday, chapel Wednesday with the 6th graders, or party Friday to celebrate good class behavior.  The teachers hyped these activities, so the kids looked kids looked forward to that day.  The calendar was clearly displayed on a classroom board.  He could read clocks in kindie but was slow and preferred digital/analog watches until middle school.

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OE, something that I would ask about, is his Pattern Recognition ability?

As the way that we represent time, uses layers of patterns.

Where the use of 60, 24, 7, 12 base number systems, for different time units.  Has logic of a pattern.

 

So that perhaps having him create Patterns, and understand how elements are organized to create patterns?

Could then be transferred to understanding our way of representing time?

When he has the pattern in front of him with tiles, he understands it just fine.  If I ask him to model a pattern with A, B, B, A, etc. he's fine.  But no, I don't think at this point he connects language and time and sees the patterns.  I made a thread on the general board asking for living books on this to help him SEE the time the way kbutton was describing.  I'm realizing there's a lot we could do with actually doing the time, drawing pictures of what happens in what amount of time, etc.  As you're saying, I think he's going to need some help to see the relationships, patterns, and how things connect. 

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If DS struggled with months and days of the week, I am not aware or it.  He sat in a reg classroom, so his days were filled with specific day of the week activities, such as art class Tuesday, chapel Wednesday with the 6th graders, or party Friday to celebrate good class behavior.  The teachers hyped these activities, so the kids looked kids looked forward to that day.  The calendar was clearly displayed on a classroom board.  He could read clocks in kindie but was slow and preferred digital/analog watches until middle school.

See that might be backing up what Jenn is saying, that it's not so much part of reading or math issues in the brain as something to do with language and the apraxia, which had not occurred to me.  Between the book she linked to (which makes a LOT of sense) and the living books and some activities that are coming to my mind, I think we are getting on-track.  I think I'm going to try to make/get some more specific types of calendar set-ups for him to see if I can improve his connect between the language and the experience of it. I'm realizing there are concepts like seconds that I'm actually going to need to DO with him.  And I need to get/make some kind of week calendar.  Then do a yesterday, today, tomorrow thing.  If he gets these different things side by side and sees the relationships by doing them each day and shifting the tiles, I think it will click.

 

More to do, lol.  

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I think this is the other one on time concepts from great ideas I was thinking of:

 

http://www.greatideasforteaching.com/Portals/0/bookPDFs/CP026.pdf

 

I love how great ideas finally has some sample pages! I have always been happy with everything I have bought from them, but it was always more of a stab in the dark about what I was getting, lol.

 

You know it may also be a good idea to probe some of the language around math and time in his play. Just picking a specific concept to target like more/less before/after etc. I am sure he is probably great with all of them. For us, I found while it appeared ds understood these concepts his understanding was some what limited to certain contexts. Probing through his play let me see where he had some glitches with certain language and helped us to deepen his understanding of those concepts. So you know instructing him to do things like "before we put on the pirates put all the weapons on the ship". Trying to bombard him with the concept several times over a play session so you see how he is with those ideas.

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Does he like music? We had a lot of trouble learning the days of the week also, until a friend suggested setting it to music.  Oh my darling, Clementine!  

Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesdayĂ¢â‚¬Â¦.Thurssssday, Friday , Saturday and repeat for the "you are gone and lost forever" part.  We sang it everyday. Worked like a charm.

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Does he like music? We had a lot of trouble learning the days of the week also, until a friend suggested setting it to music.  Oh my darling, Clementine!  

Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesdayĂ¢â‚¬Â¦.Thurssssday, Friday , Saturday and repeat for the "you are gone and lost forever" part.  We sang it everyday. Worked like a charm.

Yup, learned that from working in K5!  :D  He couldn't even sing until this Christmas (2013).  He has verbal apraxia, a motor control problem with speech, so any time we're singing or using a lot of language, it becomes more like speech therapy for him and very tiring.  So we do it, but it's not really a strong learning method for him right now because he's working so hard to say the words, kwim?  

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Yup, learned that from working in K5!   :D  He couldn't even sing until this Christmas (2013).  He has verbal apraxia, a motor control problem with speech, so any time we're singing or using a lot of language, it becomes more like speech therapy for him and very tiring.  So we do it, but it's not really a strong learning method for him right now because he's working so hard to say the words, kwim?  

 

But maybe listening would work? My son learned the days of the week from watching Mathtacular. Justin sings the days of the week to the melody of Ode to Joy. That happens to be one of the few melodies I can remember so I sing it to him frequently and he now totally knows the days of the week.

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But maybe listening would work? My son learned the days of the week from watching Mathtacular. Justin sings the days of the week to the melody of Ode to Joy. That happens to be one of the few melodies I can remember so I sing it to him frequently and he now totally knows the days of the week.

Yes, we've done that.   :) I also read memory work to him before he was able to speak it, things like the Scripture Memory Fellowship books. 

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Verbal rote learning of the days of the week.  Can be used as a last resort.

But it doesn't develop an ability to concieve of different days of the week, in relation to each other.  The order of their relationships.

 

It relates to the difference between learning the alphabet, and learning to count.

 

 

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Verbal rote learning of the days of the week.  Can be used as a last resort.

But it doesn't develop an ability to concieve of different days of the week, in relation to each other.  The order of their relationships.

 

It relates to the difference between learning the alphabet, and learning to count.

I agree with this, although I did not understand this when DD was little.  Rote learning and a lot of review helped DD with word retrieval, but it didn't help her with truly understanding the relationship between the days or in regard to the bigger picture of the passage of time.  Because she could recite them correctly and in order, I thought she understood the meaning behind those words and their relationship to each other, to the structure of our calendar, etc.  I was wrong.  We have had to take some out of the box approaches for that since she wasn't just "picking it up" after memorizing the words themselves.  For some kids I think this just comes.  It did for me.  But not for DD.

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Verbal rote learning of the days of the week.  Can be used as a last resort.

But it doesn't develop an ability to concieve of different days of the week, in relation to each other.  The order of their relationships.

 

It relates to the difference between learning the alphabet, and learning to count.

 

 

I agree with this, although I did not understand this when DD was little.  Rote learning and a lot of review helped DD with word retrieval, but it didn't help her with truly understanding the relationship between the days or in regard to the bigger picture of the passage of time.  Because she could recite them correctly and in order, I thought she understood the meaning behind those words and their relationship to each other, to the structure of our calendar, etc.  I was wrong.  We have had to take some out of the box approaches for that since she wasn't just "picking it up" after memorizing the words themselves.  For some kids I think this just comes.  It did for me.  But not for DD.

Exactly.  He can say the words with the song.  It's just glitchy how he processes with the concepts. Saying the words doesn't mean he's processing or getting it.  

 

Now I'm just deciding whether to buy or make something.  I'd rather buy, and my wallet says make.  :(

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Exactly.  He can say the words with the song.  It's just glitchy how he processes with the concepts. Saying the words doesn't mean he's processing or getting it.  

 

Now I'm just deciding whether to buy or make something.  I'd rather buy, and my wallet says make.   :(

I am so lousy at making things...you are definitely the better woman for even having enough ability to consider it.  I try...but ugh sometimes things come out so blech.  :) 

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Exactly.  He can say the words with the song.  It's just glitchy how he processes with the concepts. Saying the words doesn't mean he's processing or getting it.  

 

Now I'm just deciding whether to buy or make something.  I'd rather buy, and my wallet says make.   :(

 

Oh, sorry. My son is big on concepts and hates memorization - so he got the idea immediately but didn't want to bother memorizing the order of the days (he also learned letter sounds and what they do before learning letter names or the alphabet song). I can see how the song wouldn't be helpful in that case. Sorry I misunderstood.

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Oh, sorry. My son is big on concepts and hates memorization - so he got the idea immediately but didn't want to bother memorizing the order of the days (he also learned letter sounds and what they do before learning letter names or the alphabet song). I can see how the song wouldn't be helpful in that case. Sorry I misunderstood.

Oh it's no problem.  Everyone has where they're coming from.  I assumed it was a math issue, and it didn't really occur to me that it was more a language thing, like how the language is connecting to the concepts, ie. the apraxia.  

 

 

I am so lousy at making things...you are definitely the better woman for even having enough ability to consider it.  I try...but ugh sometimes things come out so blech.   :)

Hehe, I was feeling chicken too, but I googled for some inspiration and found some pics.  Turns out you can sew to make divisions on the pocket chart you already have (duh).  I wondered if you could but had been chicken to try.  I have the binding to put on a quilt (nothing fancy, don't be impressed), then I need to dig if I have some stray pocket charts to do that with.  Something will work out.  I have a coupon for 20% off to buy the thing and be done with it, but I wanted 40% off, call me picky.  :D

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Yup, learned that from working in K5!   :D  He couldn't even sing until this Christmas (2013).  He has verbal apraxia, a motor control problem with speech, so any time we're singing or using a lot of language, it becomes more like speech therapy for him and very tiring.  So we do it, but it's not really a strong learning method for him right now because he's working so hard to say the words, kwim?  

 

 

Yep. I should have realized that.  I personally think his quirk is cute, and he sounds very intelligent, but of coarse we worry when our children don't develop skill in the way we think they should. 

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Buy or make? If you have a teacher store nearby, you could potentially buy the materials for the chart, but use sticky tack to put it on a whiteboard or poster board. My guess is that the chart holder (pocket chart) is the most expensive part, and you could obtain materials for the other parts more easily (even from workbooks, maybe). I live smack between two United Arts and Education stores that carry this kind of stuff. You might be able to hit one at convention time. Their website is a little clunky, but a lot of what they'll have in this regard is under classroom aids. Some things go in pocket charts, and some are more for bulletin boards.

 

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Okay, I'm fishing around, and they definitely have similar things that are a little cheaper. Look at LER2418 for 36.99.

 

In fact, if you already have a pocket calendar chart, you can make slightly taller cards to go behind your numbers (stick up above them) to indicate yesterday, today, tomorrow.

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Ok, ok, I'll go see what I have!  I THOUGHT I had a spare pocket chart that I got on the cheap last fall, but sometimes I'm crazy.  And you're right, I have pieces like that with the months and whatnot.  And yes, I saw another chart that had the yesterday/today/tomorrow behind the numbers, very witty.  I'll work...

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While we have these words: seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years.

Each of them has their own base number system.

With seconds/ minutes using a base 60 number system.

Then hours with a base 24 number system.

Weeks using a base 7 number system.

Months with a combination of 28/29, 30,31 base numbers ?

Then years with a base 12 for months.

But then with years, we finally return to a base 10 number system.

 

So that when we concieve of time? 

We have overlaying layers of different base number systems.

In a specific order of relationship to each other.

 

The way that the brain meshes these different base numbers systems together?

Is through 'Patterning'.

Where a Pattern can be extended to incorporate multiple base number systems.

So that we can step back and see the pattern of time, as a whole and how it all fits together.

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Geodob, it sounds like you're saying we need a time abacus, sort of like the way we use the RightStart abacus on side two to show relationships and do two trades (10 ones for 1 ten, etc.).  I hadn't really thought about looking for time manipulatives, but it's kind of interesting.  Turns out our library has some books that do this.  I think I'm going to try to find an analog and also a digital clock to hang in his room so he can study it when he wakes up, etc.  

 

Meanwhile I've got the pocket chart almost ready.  I did a test printing, so now I need to tweak a few things on the slips and do the final printing to laminate and it will be ready!  He likes it, and the price was right.  :)

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Have you tried anything like this? I think circles make so much more sense than the traditional page a month calendars.

 

http://www.lifeasaschoolhouse.com/2013/01/circular-perpetual-calendar.html

What a neat idea!!!  You're right, that would work for clocks, calendars, all sorts of things.  What a great idea!!!  Wow, my mind is totally whirling with what you could do with that.  Super cool.  Thanks for sharing.  :D

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What a neat idea!!!  You're right, that would work for clocks, calendars, all sorts of things.  What a great idea!!!  Wow, my mind is totally whirling with what you could do with that.  Super cool.  Thanks for sharing.   :D

You are welcome but, just to be clear, it is not my hs blog I linked.  I just wanted an example.  We just started one with seasons and months.  You can purchase very intricate ones also.  

 

This one could be cool to make too.  My dd has quite a collection of tubes from paper towels and toilet paper.  It would be nice to find something to DO with them lol.

post-70654-0-63439000-1397519156_thumb.jpg

post-70654-0-63439000-1397519156_thumb.jpg

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There's a book called Me Counting Time that may help him a bit with this also. You might need to repeat it with him a few times.

 

If you do a pocket chart, there are a lot of free printables for them on Teachers Pay Teachers. (Registering is free.)

 

I color-code the weekdays for some things, which makes it easier for me to keep track of them as well.

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You are welcome but, just to be clear, it is not my hs blog I linked.  I just wanted an example.  We just started one with seasons and months.  You can purchase very intricate ones also.  

 

This one could be cool to make too.  My dd has quite a collection of tubes from paper towels and toilet paper.  It would be nice to find something to DO with them lol.

Hmm, that's neat, but...  I was trying to say we couldn't do this, and all of a sudden I realized, GASP, we COULD!!!  He has these Super Structs toys with really nice gears.  No, we will not do this, no we will not.  Surely you were joking?  But it's actually really cool, because as you're saying you're giving physical representation to the relationships.  

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There's a book called Me Counting Time that may help him a bit with this also. You might need to repeat it with him a few times.

 

If you do a pocket chart, there are a lot of free printables for them on Teachers Pay Teachers. (Registering is free.)

 

I color-code the weekdays for some things, which makes it easier for me to keep track of them as well.

Yeah NOW you give me that link, after I spent hours yesterday making my own (and not nearly so cute!), hehe...  But that's ok.  Maybe I won't laminate mine and then I'll have an excuse to do another set later.  :D   That book looks great too, thanks!  Our library has it, so this should be fun!

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So, how's it going with the new calendar?

 

I purchased a classroom calendar kit from a teacher supply store and laminated everything.  The poster lamination was shockingly inexpensive.  We hung everything in the office/homeschool room, and my DD loves it.  Anyhoo...

 

I discovered the following songs on youtube:  

and
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