Pre-test for math team?

[Dmmetler]

We're trying to put together a local team to compete in the Continental Math League next year (and we'd really LOVE to do MathCounts, but we're thinking CML might be a better goal for this year since if we end up not having enough kids to field a team, they can still all compete individually) We're looking at 7th grade level because that's where the oldest interested child is. This would be DD and three boys so far-DD is finishing AOPS Pre-Algebra (plus lots of other stuff on her own), the 5th grader is finishing up SM 5B and heading into AOPS Pre-A next year, and the two rising 7th graders are both in Pre-algebra currently with different programs, so 7th grade CML seems reasonable.

 

The thing is, we need three more kids to form a team. And so far, some of the responses locally are for kids who are either DD's age or younger-but aren't, as far as I know, accelerated in math more than a year or so (One is a 2nd grader who is doing a 3rd grade math curriculum-using a calculator because her mother "doesn't believe in making kids memorize math facts), or are 6th-7th graders who are using fairly weak math programs and are on grade level.

 

 

I'm wondering if it's reasonable to require all team participants to take the ADAM K-8 and show math skills at 7th grade level or higher? Or is there a better alternative? (I was thinking the computer scoring would be good because it's more objective. We can reserve a computer bank at the library for testing purposes). I could see some of the kids using TT or Key to Algebra possibly benefiting from preparing for the competition, but I don't want to frustrate a child who just plain isn't ready for competition math at this level, and while I'm willing to bend over backwards to get DD a math team/math circle for her benefit, I want it to be at a level that's right for her.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

DS was on a CML team last year and only the highest 6 scores on each of the tests counted for team purposes. The kids weren't told whose scores did or did not count towards the team score. Everyone got to participate, however.

[Kathy in Richmond]

How does CML work? Do all your kids in the club have to take the same level?

 

Maybe MOEMS would be a better fit? they have two levels only, and generally are better at challenging the advanced kids.

 

This is pretty much what we encountered when putting together a MathCounts club for my dd. The only other homeschoolers who signed up were two years younger, and most used Math U See or similar programs. I took all comers and just tried to show them the joy of math & that they could make individual goals for their own progress. It can work- the kid who cried at first (and I am very gentle!) was doing MC superbly by the end of his tenure with the club. But it takes a lot of effort to convince them (& their parents) that this sort of math is a challenge & in no way reflects on their being smart or not.

 

Each meeting we focused on one single math skill, then we did some contest practice together. I'd try to make sure that their results were private so they didn't fret too much. Make improvement the focus.

 

We had a similar experience doing Mandelbrot with another group organized by a different homeschool mom. Kids were at all different levels, but at least we fielded a team! They learn from each other, and everyone improves from their own starting points.

 

[Dmmetler]

If we register as a team then we have to decide on one level unless we have enough people to field multiple teams.Maybe we should just all be individuals, but get together to do math stuff regularly?

 

Sigh...it looked like it was coming together so well yesterday. Now, not so much.  And that's not even counting that when I do an ELE or NME group, invariably there are a decent number of parents who sign their kids up, but don't want them to take the test. Not a big deal for the ELE or NME, but if we only have enough kids to barely field a team and someone decides that their child isn't going to compete or starts flaking out, that's going to make a difference for the whole team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

If we register as a team then we have to decide on one level unless we have enough people to field multiple teams.Maybe we should just all be individuals, but get together to do math stuff regularly?

 

Sigh...it looked like it was coming together so well yesterday. Now, not so much.  And that's not even counting that when I do an ELE or NME group, invariably there are a decent number of parents who sign their kids up, but don't want them to take the test. Not a big deal for the ELE or NME, but if we only have enough kids to barely field a team and someone decides that their child isn't going to compete or starts flaking out, that's going to make a difference for the whole team.

 

:grouphug: That's par for the course around here,too. You can get enough kids to sign up to field a team or two, but the majority won't come to even one meeting. For the years we didn't have enough kids to make a team, we did as you suggest above. We participated in the events as individuals, but still met for group practice because it was fun for the few dedicated kids to get together. Good luck.

 

[daijobu]

I was really begging parents to sign up their kids for my MC team.  I had registered 7 kids and one dropped out. Two of them skipped all the practices since the material was just too difficult for them, but they showed up at the chapter competition anyway.  I had my hard core team of 4, but it's always nice to have a larger crowd at chapter to support each other.  Since I have a hard time recruiting, I'll take anyone who meets the age requirement.  

[Julie of KY]

I'm not familiar with CML, but I'd encourage you not to discount mathcounts even if you have to compete as individuals.

 

My first year coaching mathcounts, my oldest competed as an individual. The second year, we recruited two others and competed as a team even though they averaged in a zero for the fourth person. Last year I had four students participate and win a team trophy at chapter. This year, I'm up to five students! Next year I have four students returning and I expect to pick up some sixth graders as they've been asking in the past.

 

I've taken kids to state the past three years.

 

At each meeting we try to do something mathy but fun as well as focusing on improving a single area.

 

... by the way, I advertise the mathcounts team to homeschoolers and take anyone who is age appropriate and lives in our chapter. Slowly the word is spreading amongst homeschoolers and we are also making a name for ourselves amongst the public school teachers. I make the parents pay for their portion of the registration. They are welcome to drop out, but once they've paid they are usually committed. I don't charge anything extra, but next year I might charge a little more so that we can get team t-shirts.

[fractalgal]

I also wanted to encourage your daughter (if you don't find enough students for a team) to compete in Mathcounts as an Individual.  When we went to our first competition I had no idea what to expect, nor did I have high expectations.

 

We found the other students and public/private school teachers to be friendly towards us knowing we were homeschoolers especially at the chapter level.  At the state level, we still felt welcome though you could feel that there was a sense of competition in the air...not only towards us but also between the competing public and private schools.

 

My daughter was invited and will join a private school math team in the fall (though I'm still homeschooling her).  She's excited about this, and I think it brings a whole new perspective for her with math competitions.  So I can understand why you'd want your daughter to be part of a group. 

 

However, I think competing as an individual helped my daughter to recognize her weaknesses and to develop her strengths, and I'm glad she participated. 

 

Good luck.  :)

[Dmmetler]

I'm torn-interest based, not age-based groups have worked well for us as far as at least finding a place DD gets some social support and has some friends. But she's still an outlier. She so wants to have someone that she can work with at her level, and I'd hoped that maybe a competition math team would attract those kids and give her a group of kids who are closer to her age and who can actually compete with her and provide her that dynamic she wants. In some ways, getting to work on things that actually challenge her with other people has made her feel MORE alone, because those other people are so much older than she is. She wants those close in age people who can actually compete with her and challenge her. She loves doing math competitions as an individual, and lives for those days, but it can feel pretty alone when she's the only kid there who isn't part of a cluster (and that even applies at competitions like Math Kangaroo without a team component).

 

And darn it, my geographic area is pretty big. Homeschooling is BIG here (both for religious reasons and because the local schools simply aren't that good-plus the poor economy has led a decent number of families where one parent lost a job to pull kids from private schools and homeschool for financial reasons).  Statistically, there HAVE to be enough good-in-math older elementary/early middle school kids out there to put together a team of 5, right???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

I'm torn-interest based, not age-based groups have worked well for us as far as at least finding a place DD gets some social support and has some friends. But she's still an outlier. She so wants to have someone that she can work with at her level, and I'd hoped that maybe a competition math team would attract those kids and give her a group of kids who are closer to her age and who can actually compete with her and provide her that dynamic she wants.

 

In some ways, getting to work on things that actually challenge her with other people has made her feel MORE alone, because those other people are so much older than she is. She wants those close in age people who can actually compete with her and challenge her. She loves doing math competitions as an individual, and lives for those days, but it can feel pretty alone when she's the only kid there who isn't part of a cluster (and that even applies at competitions like Math Kangaroo without a team component).

 

And darn it, my geographic area is pretty big. Homeschooling is BIG here (both for religious reasons and because the local schools simply aren't that good-plus the poor economy has led a decent number of families where one parent lost a job to pull kids from private schools and homeschool for financial reasons).  Statistically, there HAVE to be enough good-in-math older elementary/early middle school kids out there to put together a team of 5, right???

:grouphug:

I'm sorry, dmmettler! I understand, btdt - we had similar needs here. But the only way we had success was to look on a broader scale. We sent them to math camps. They took an active part in AoPS online communities. They started working on contests as individuals & doing well. Then and only then did my kids find what you're looking for. Opportunities began to present themselves, and they didn't have to be outliers any more. There is a critical mass of that sort of kid out there, but it will take time to find her cohort.

 

A little more detail about how my kids get involved in those opportunities: Well, they started out working as individuals in MathCounts & AMC competitions. They initially made friends at MathPath and later at Mathcamp, and they kept in touch all year long in between. During high school, dd used to request that her birthday or Christmas gift be a plane ticket to visit one of her camp friends.

 

Eventually those friends from camps and AoPS got together and formed teams to travel to competition weekends like HMMT & PUMaC & Math Prize for Girls & Duke math meets. They prepped together over the internet for Mandelbrot & Purple Comet. One friend organized his own Atlanta regional math meet & dd traveled down to help run it. An ARML coach took notice of her involvement and results and invited dd to be part of a multi-state team. (ARML teams are by invitation, and they work together all year long, culminating in a trip to a huge meet at Penn State in June). New friends, more fun, and lots more travel time for mom!

 

It ended up being wonderful, but it took lots of time & even more effort & sometimes tears to get there. Certainly we weren't doing any of this when the kids were your dd's age. It started to improve around the middle school years here. I encourage you to stick with it!

 

Homeschooling is huge here in Richmond, too, but never was I able to get a long term, substantial homeschool math club together locally. Occasionally there were one or two other kids who loved math, and sometimes I could put together a team of 4 or more at various math levels for one year, but mostly, no. It was super difficult to find many local kids at a similar ability or interest level. It still helped, though, to persevere here & take whoever was interested or willing to try. Mine still very much enjoyed the social part of the local club.

[Julie of KY]

I understand. My oldest started Mathcounts as an individual and slowly we started advertising Mathcounts to the homeschool community and slowly started getting some interest. By the third year he competed in Mathcounts we had a full team and they won a team trophy.

 

It's hard to find anyone to challenge him. He won our chapter and made countdown at state two years in a row. Now he is on the KY ARML team which is a highlight of his week whenever they practice. The KY team isn't very organized, but it is a great team experience in math.

[fractalgal]

I'm torn-interest based, not age-based groups have worked well for us as far as at least finding a place DD gets some social support and has some friends. But she's still an outlier. She so wants to have someone that she can work with at her level, and I'd hoped that maybe a competition math team would attract those kids and give her a group of kids who are closer to her age and who can actually compete with her and provide her that dynamic she wants. In some ways, getting to work on things that actually challenge her with other people has made her feel MORE alone, because those other people are so much older than she is. She wants those close in age people who can actually compete with her and challenge her. She loves doing math competitions as an individual, and lives for those days, but it can feel pretty alone when she's the only kid there who isn't part of a cluster (and that even applies at competitions like Math Kangaroo without a team component).

 

And darn it, my geographic area is pretty big. Homeschooling is BIG here (both for religious reasons and because the local schools simply aren't that good-plus the poor economy has led a decent number of families where one parent lost a job to pull kids from private schools and homeschool for financial reasons).  Statistically, there HAVE to be enough good-in-math older elementary/early middle school kids out there to put together a team of 5, right???

 

I admire you all who've put teams together.  Here, too, I think it'd be difficult to do.

 

I agree with others who recommend math summer camps.  My 8th grade daughter is doing one this summer that is run by our state's ARML, and she is looking forward to it.  In the past, she's done the online interactive For the Win on the AoPS website, but I think she's looking forward to more face to face group work. 

 

A summer math camp seems like an atmosphere your daughter would thrive in, but you may have to wait until she's a little older.  Good luck. 

[Steppenwolf]

I do not think the popularity of homeschooling in your area matters for your purpose.

 

I'd try to post on AOPS forums - they are open to anybody and very active, with the right kind of students. I'd contact one of the moderators (e. g., Mr Ruszyk, or Mr Copeland) and describe your situation. I believe they are very responsive. They should be able to say what is the best (and appropriate) way to post.

[bakpak]

Have you contacted local schools to see if they have students who would fit the bill but aren't competing? Perhaps a Gifted Coordinator could help you?

[Dmmetler]

DD's not eligible for Math Counts yet, since she's officially a 5th grader next year. The ideal would be several other kids who would be Math Counts eligible year after next, to work on it this year and then move into competing together. I like the idea of contacting AOPS. I can also put an announcement on GHF and the Davidson forums.

[Steppenwolf]

Incidentally, AOPS has a forum specifically for MATHCOUNTS coaches:

 

Community » Mathematics » Middle School Contests (MATHCOUNTS, AMC 8, MOEMS, etc.)

 

MATHCOUNTS Coaches Forum

 

rrusczyk

 

"We now have a private forum just for MATHCOUNTS Coaches. Students, please do not request to join this forum! It is for coaches only to discuss coaching issues.

In order to join the forum ..."

 

[daijobu]

Have you contacted local schools to see if they have students who would fit the bill but aren't competing? Perhaps a Gifted Coordinator could help you?

 

Just to be clear, as far as MC is concerned, a homeschooled team can not have students who are enrolled in a regular school.  Students and parents who join my team must sign an affidavit indicating they are legally homeschooling.  

 

It's probably fine for other math-related activities, though.  

[Dmmetler]

Another question-As I read rules, we don't have to officially be part of/sponsored by a homeschool group/association, correct? I run the other classes/clubs I do through my HS group, but have never had trouble getting kids for them just from that source (for mythology, I'm usually cutting off the numbers to keep it small).  And I like doing it that way because there's one single means of communication (each of my clubs has it's own sub-forum on the private boards, where I can upload/share files without them being available to the whole internet, post announcements, and so on) For this, I need to look outside, and I'm wondering if it's reasonable to ask families to join the group (at $20/family for the year) just for one activity if they haven't seen a need to do so already. At the same time, I really hate to NOT have that one central means of communication-even if I set up something myself, it's one more place to check, and I don't want to be in the place of needing to call parent A, text parent B, FB message parent C, and send a carrier pigeon to parent D (been there, done that.....)

 

I know I'd gladly pay a lot more than the $20 registration fee and $20 to join the group for a math club/team for my DD if it were available to me (I'd happily pay the whole $90 Math Counts or $95 CML registration MYSELF it if would get a team going for her), but I don't want to assume other parents would do the same thing.

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Another question-As I read rules, we don't have to officially be part of/sponsored by a homeschool group/association, correct?

 

Yes, MathCounts doesn't require homeschool participants to be part of any sponsoring homeschool organization. We always did it independently. You just have to sign the affadavit mentioned by daijobu.

 

I run the other classes/clubs I do through my HS group, but have never had trouble getting kids for them just from that source (for mythology, I'm usually cutting off the numbers to keep it small).  And I like doing it that way because there's one single means of communication (each of my clubs has it's own sub-forum on the private boards, where I can upload/share files without them being available to the whole internet, post announcements, and so on) For this, I need to look outside, and I'm wondering if it's reasonable to ask families to join the group (at $20/family for the year) just for one activity if they haven't seen a need to do so already. At the same time, I really hate to NOT have that one central means of communication-even if I set up something myself, it's one more place to check, and I don't want to be in the place of needing to call parent A, text parent B, FB message parent C, and send a carrier pigeon to parent D (been there, done that.....)

 

Communications are always a pain in these kinds of groups. Some folks won't do Facebook, some only text message, some only respond to emails and others don't check email at all, some like a phone call reminder. For math club, though, it was never a big enough group here to worry about having to contact each parent in whatever way was best. I can see why you like your HS group private boards, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay an extra $20 per year per family just for that.

 

I know I'd gladly pay a lot more than the $20 registration fee and $20 to join the group for a math club/team for my DD if it were available to me (I'd happily pay the whole $90 Math Counts or $95 CML registration MYSELF it if would get a team going for her), but I don't want to assume other parents would do the same thing.

 

Haha, btdt! :) 

[Julie of KY]

You can create your own mathclub organization for Mathcounts. To compete, you must draw students in 6-8th grade who are legally homeschooling and live within you chapter boundaries. Each individual signs something to this effect. Also, they are signing that if they are registering as part of your group, they won't jump ship and create a new team if not picked for your team.

 

Just like a public school can only have one team and six individuals, one homeschool group can only have one team and six individuals. If you have a mathclub of eight students, you can't pick the top four to be your team and then have the next four create a team under a different name. When they sign the affidavit to be a part of your group they are saying they homeschool, live within the region and are aware that they can't become a part of another team if not picked for your team.

 

Potentially there may be other homeschool mathclubs (coached by others) in your region and therefore more than one homeschool team, but the teams draw from students in different mathclubs.

[Crimson Wife]

The various group activities that my kids do tend to use either Google Groups, Yahoo Groups, or BigTent in order to facilitate communication. I don't think that I would want to be required to join a HS support group with a membership fee just to have access to one activity. If I wanted to be part of that support group, I'd already be a member, KWIM?

[chiguirre]

For Mathcounts, do you have to create a team or can you just register as an individual? Do you have to pay the $90 team fee if it's just one kid or can you pay $25?

 

I'm a total newbie at this and I'd rather not have to try to put together a team if Trinqueta could just do it as an individual.

[daijobu]

And I like doing it that way because there's one single means of communication (each of my clubs has it's own sub-forum on the private boards, where I can upload/share files without them being available to the whole internet, post announcements, and so on) For this, I need to look outside, and I'm wondering if it's reasonable to ask families to join the group (at $20/family for the year) just for one activity if they haven't seen a need to do so already. At the same time, I really hate to NOT have that one central means of communication-even if I set up something myself, it's one more place to check, and I don't want to be in the place of needing to call parent A, text parent B, FB message parent C, and send a carrier pigeon to parent D (been there, done that.....)

 

 

 

Whatever happened to carrier pigeons anyway?

 

It sounds your group has an amazing organizing resource.   Being able to upload and share files is critical for me because that's how I assign homework without having to print out copies for everyone.  I use Google Drive for this purpose.  

 

I do charge my MC students a nominal fee to participate.  It helps a bit with my expenses and registration, but it's also about getting buy-in and commitment.  

 

For your situation, it's all about balance of power.  Are there lots of students eager to join your club?  Then you have a greater ability to call the shots.

 

I'm in the position of trying to recruit and not having enough interested students, so I am more willing to bend over backward and meet their needs, even if it's less convenient for me.  So far, though, email and google docs work for us.  

[daijobu]

If you have a mathclub of eight students, you can't pick the top four to be your team and then have the next four create a team under a different name. 

 

 

I was wondering about this.  Can one person coach 2 homeschooled teams?  

[Crimson Wife]

I was wondering about this.  Can one person coach 2 homeschooled teams?

It's being done regardless of whether or not it's kosher. DD almost joined a MC team last fall where the coach was working with 2 HS teams simultaneously (divided along county lines) in a joint session. We went to the initial session but decided not to do it for various reasons.

[Julie of KY]

I was wondering about this.  Can one person coach 2 homeschooled teams?

I'd be careful that they are really two different teams. I think it is possible as I've also read of the same person being the coach for two different public schools. It is against the rules to coach one group that creates more than one team.

[Julie of KY]

For Mathcounts, do you have to create a team or can you just register as an individual? Do you have to pay the $90 team fee if it's just one kid or can you pay $25?

 

I'm a total newbie at this and I'd rather not have to try to put together a team if Trinqueta could just do it as an individual.

For one individual, you only pay the $25 fee. For the team test, individuals from different schools will be grouped together to take the test as if they were a team, but it is not scored.