WTM Way and/or CC Challenge A for 7th Grade

[Literary Mom]

Can anyone give me feedback on using the WTM for 7th grade? We've been loosely following it for the past five years since we started homeschooling, but as I've moved into the logic stage with my oldest, I feel like I've slacked off even more when I should be stepping up my game. I'm considering putting her in Classical Conversations Challenge A, because the tutor is amazing, and the curriculum looks pretty good. Not as rigorous as WTM but since I haven't been fully keeping up with that, it might be a good thing. We would still keep the WTM history component, though, since Challenge doesn't offer that (despite being a six subject program). Thoughts?

 

 

[dauphin]

In what way are you planning to "keep the history component?"

 

I think they intend for history to be tied in but they definitely drop the history cycle idea.

[Paula in MS]

History for Challenge A is geography, so you would need to add history if you wanted to keep the history cycle.  Challenge is not anywhere close to the WTM method.  The strong selling point is the group discussion and tutor.

[Literary Mom]

There is no formal study of history in Challenge A or B. Instead, there is "Debate" - in A, that's geography (drawing a map of the world from memory), and in B, it's current events and a mock trial. 

 

I plan to continue the WTM history cycle (early modern & modern times) for 7th and 8th grade. If we do the corresponding literature, though, it might be too much on top of what is assigned in Challenge, although those books are easier, and my daughter is an avid reader. She would have no problem reading it all, but processing it, particularly in a written format, could prove overly challenging! 

 

[Literary Mom]

History for Challenge A is geography, so you would need to add history if you wanted to keep the history cycle.  Challenge is not anywhere close to the WTM method.  The strong selling point is the group discussion and tutor.

 

I was typing just as you were, hence the repeated info :)  I've got to sit down with TWTM and really explore seventh grade (as well as backtrack the whole logic section) to do a fair comparison, but I was just hoping someone out there might have attempted to do both, or had tried each separately in the middle grades, and could tell me how that worked out (or didn't). I probably need to search the forums...I remember a thread with people debating whether it was possible to supplement Challenge A, and the consensus (but for a dissenting few) was that it wasn't, because it was so time consuming already. Not really ready to give up the history cycle after we've come this far, and it's one of her favorite subjects...so I'll likely either attempt the unadvisable (do it all) or forego Challenge. Always wanting the best of both worlds...to have my cake and eat it, too...wishing we could all be one big happy co-op together ;)

[Literary Mom]

Oh, and foreign language, English grammar, music, and art aren't in Challenge A  :ohmy: ...but it's got math (!) and science and logic and Latin and writing... so I guess I really am weighing the benefit of the tutor (who is extremely knowledgeable, fun, and can focus a whole day on teaching one age group) and group dynamics (peer interaction, discussion, etc.) against the benefits of covering certain subjects (whether I actually would, and thoroughly, is another matter altogether, but I have to be realistic). 

[TarynB]

Oh, and foreign language, English grammar, music, and art aren't in Challenge A  :ohmy: ...but it's got math (!) and science and logic and Latin and writing... so I guess I really am weighing the benefit of the tutor (who is extremely knowledgeable, fun, and can focus a whole day on teaching one age group) and group dynamics (peer interaction, discussion, etc.) against the benefits of covering certain subjects (whether I actually would, and thoroughly, is another matter altogether, but I have to be realistic). 

 

I have no personal experience with Challenge A, but this thread might be enlightening for you, if you haven't already seen it. Several posts in it discuss that Challenge A (and B ) do not really teach science as a subject, even though it is marketed that way. Rather, some science material is covered, but only in the context of teaching research skills and writing skills using some (limited) science content. I've seen/heard others say that for a student who really wants science as a separate and thoroughly covered subject, adding it at home to an already very full work load in Challenge A can be difficult. That may not be a deal-breaker for you, just wanted to mention it in case you're expecting science as a separate subject as you seem to be indicating above.

 

I've also heard people mention IRL that for a student jumping into CC for the first time, Challenge A can be quite an adjustment, and much additional time could be required by that student playing catch-up in critical skills, especially for Latin. Their Latin in particular moves at a quick and demanding pace in Challenge A and B, and kids who've done the elementary level Latin with CC have a strong advantage in the group setting. Also, grammar isn't a separate subject, but is covered via Latin, and a very solid grammar background apparently is required. But you didn't say what kind of background in grammar and Latin your DD already has, so maybe this is totally a non-issue for you.  :)

 

Again, no personal experience, just passing along some food for thought. HTH.

 

[Literary Mom]

Good to know about the science, although the tutor is very science-y (it's her current CC tutor for Foundations), so I would think he would bring more to it. It's also not my strong suit, so we haven't really been doing science the WTM way for the logic stage. Just sticking with Apologia, which I think is a great program, and then experiments at CC (and before that, in a co-op). 

 

As for Latin, that wouldn't be a problem because she's been doing Memoria Press Latin since second grade (we're now in the midst of First Form Latin), and she's quite good at it (amazing memory for grammar, facts, etc.). She also excels at logic, which we've been doing over the course of this year (using WTM recommendations for 6th grade). 

 

I'm not extremely comfortable with her only getting grammar through Latin, but I might be okay with trying it for a year, especially if the writing program is strong. 

 

All good things to consider...I think in my other CC thread or maybe on my blog last fall, I said we were leaning away from doing Challenge because she had already read some of the books for lit, but moreso because it didn't match with the TWTM, which I had deemed our educational standard, but now I'm rethinking my reservations because of different factors, like the social aspect, and rounding out the instruction I give my children with the gifts others have to offer. It's difficult prioritizing academic goals (and whether they are the best ones or not is another question) with the other aspects of development that come through different kinds of learning experiences. 

 

Thank you for sharing that information. 

[Omma]

My 8th grade ds has been doing Challenge A this year.  He did not do CC prior to this year and doing Challenge has absorbed all of his time (and then some).  But we had also switched to Saxon (using 8/7) this year and that has also been a struggle for him (although he has made fantastic progress this year in math).  What I am most impressed about this year is the expansion of ds's work ethic.  We have CC on Thursdays and my ds stayed up until 12:30 a.m. to study for his geography test and to copy a map of Africa by freehand.  This is a kid who did not care if he ever saw a map last summer when we drove 1/2 way across the country.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that Challenge A is 30 weeks, so that means you have at least 6 additional weeks when you can 'do your own thing' and perhaps do an intense focus on science and history if you wanted to.  I could say a lot more, but have to run and get ready for our day.  I am very impressed with how 'engaged' my ds is this year in his schoolwork, and he has really been able to shine in doing presentations and participating in class discussions for rhetoric class and even in discussing literature in LTOW.  Oh, and I think LTOW does cover a little bit of grammar as well, as well as via Latin.  I think that CC figures your dc already had Essentials which covers formal grammar in great detail (I know this firsthand from my dd taking it this year).

 

Blessings,

Brenda

[G5052]

One of mine was pretty overwhelmed with Challenge A, and one had time to do additional history and literature.  Same very experienced tutor.

 

As you can read in the linked thread, we loved Challenge A.  After that?  Not so much.  And frankly other than missing the people, it has been nice to have five solid days at home this year.

[Omma]

Regarding science, we have added BJU online's Earth and Space science, which my ds has really enjoyed.  He liked the first semester of science for Challenge A, and I thought it was beneficial for him, even though it was repeating the Life Science he had already done in 7th grade (keeping in mind he did Challenge A for 8th grade).  But I thought it added to and cemented his knowledge and love of Life Science to be researching a particular mollusk, for example, and then writing up a paragraph or two that he could present to the class, along with an illustration.  He also got to listen in on the other presentations of various types of mollusks, which I think broadened the subject covered.  But now that they are spending the week practicing drawing the digestive system, for example, he really started to slack off on his work ethic as he just wasn't as enthused.  So I decided to switch his science to Earth Science and he is happy again, learning lots, and also still reviewing the digestive system (as an example).  So you do have flexibility to switch up the subjects whenever whichever way you would like. 

 

Next year, I've decided to add in Notgrass's World History and the various literature books to cover Ancient History and add to the English component while he is doing Challenge B for 9th grade.  I've heard that you have a little bit more time to supplement with other things in Challenge B than in Challenge A.

[Literary Mom]

Good to know - thanks. My daughter really enjoys life science (well, anything pertaining to animals), so I think that part might be a good fit for her, but if we go this route, I will probably have her join my younger two and me as we go through our last Apologia Exploring Creation book, Chemistry/Physics, and possibly use the chemistry kit recommended for the logic stage in TWTM. 

[MSNative]

I have a kid in challenge a and one in challenge b this year. Challenge a is much more about rote memorization- maps, capitals, anatomy, Latin declensions, etc. Challenge b is completely different. The only memorization is Latin and a bit of logic and chemistry. My ch. B student spends his time working on mock trial or science fair, writing papers, writing logic proofs, prepping for debates and/or literature discussions rather than memorizing. My ch. A kid is def getting bored with all the memorizing and drill. My ch b kid is still completely engaged and focused. That said, the ch a kid is usually bored with schoolwork while the ch b kid is usually engaged so take my experience with a serious grain of salt.

 

Science and math are weak for kids who favor those subjects. Our community allows kids to move to diff. levels for math which helps. Plus, our tutors are amazing and give the kids all sorts of extra math challenges. We do science outside of CC. However, IF your child does everything in the guide and really does the research, not just doing the assignment, I think the science could be ok. My kids tended to just do the assignment and check the box rather than delve deep and use the assignment as a research springboard. Since we were already doing a science, I didn't force this issue. If your child is math/science oriented, plan to supplement.

[angela in ohio]

I was a Challenge A tutor, with both of my girls in the class of twelve students, and we have used WTM for guidance in many areas since the beginning.

 

For students who are used to a WTM amount of work, adding to Challenge should not be a problem at all. We added science, literature, art, etc. at home, and that was after I pushed the Challenge program to the fullest I could for them. I did have students who weren't used to doing several hours of work a day or following someone else's plan, and they struggled to adjust, though they all seemed to come out better in the end.

 

The science is really just anatomy memorization and then report-writing about animals. Whether that is enough/okay for you depends on how you plan your science sequence. I wanted to use 7th and 8th to segue into more formal science, since we had not done any formal science at all in the elementary years. Challenge A wasn't enough for that. We used BJU at home.

 

The geography work is excellent. We did not do four-year history cycles until high school, so the year of geography was fine. If you flesh it out with some study at home (a good geography text and some writing assignments, for example,) you have plenty there. This is one area where they will need to spend at least the recommended hour-per-day, and it will be worthwhile.

 

The reading is very light. That is on purpose, so that they can concentrate on discussion and writing instead of struggling to get through the books. I don't disagree with that, we just added plenty of reading at home. You could easily keep reading through history if she is a strong reader.

 

I would never recommend Challenge A unless you knew the tutor was excellent (the tutor makes or breaks it,) but it sounds like it might be a good option for you. The class interaction is invaluable IF you have a tutor who knows how to facilitate that and knows the material.

[PeskyReds]

This has been a helpful thread as we are in a similar boat.  Is there a size of Challenge class you'd recommend as a minimum for discussion and presentation purposes? 

 

In addition to our regular schoolwork, we're currently using some online classes which have been great for our family in providing accountability, pursuit of excellence, training in scheduling your own work, working independently, presenting (at least in a virutal environment) and discussion with others that are not mom, etc.   however, I like some of the things that Challenge A (or Chal.  B  ) would provide for my rising 8th grader next year and think it could be done along side some of the things I would supplement with.  Trouble is, it's a new CC program. Right now it looks like there would only be 1 or 2 other students in the class, which to me deflates the benefit of group discussion and debate.  Wondering if the Challenge A (or Chal B  ) curricula is worth trying alongside these other shortcomings, or if these aren't really shortcomings in your experience? 

 

 I may have a gifted and experienced tutor, but also few students.....what would you recommend as a minimum class size?

 

I've always felt like it's the students and the tutor that make the class....Deciding whether to take the chance or use the money to sign up for more virtual community instead of IRL people.  :)

[Literary Mom]

Angela - your feedback is super helpful and sounds very parallel to our situation (except that we have been doing the history and science cycles all along). Based on what you shared, I am now fairly confident that we could do it all...well, except that we may also be doing an Odyssey of the Mind co-op, so we'd only have three full days to do the work at home, one of which is a Saturday (we school Tues-Sat). Serious buckling down would be in order. 

 

Question 1:  Is it true that the work is done the previous week at home and the tutor just goes over it with the students...or do they introduce the new concepts? I haven't been able to get a clear read on this. It's also frustrating (that word seems to recur with CC) to not be able to see the Challenge A guide before enrolling. CC doesn't allow it to be purchased before then, but even if they did, why should I have to buy something without getting to preview it first?  Is the idea that  the Challenge Director will show you their copy? (ours doesn't have it yet)

 

Question 2:  Peskyreds's comment applies to us as well - this will be the first year of Challenge, and although the tutor is totally qualified (our CC directors are a couple who have their own tutoring center), there isn't a large pool of students in this age group. So far I only know of three, including my daughter, who may be in it. Because the tutor is so dynamic - he tutored Foundations masters this past year, which my daughter was in, with just three other students - I am inclined to think he could draw out the group dynamic, like I saw him do this year with much more limited material (i.e. memory work). Still, if it only ends up being two students, would that be worthwhile?

 

 

[G5052]

Question 1:  This will vary with the tutor.  I've seen it both ways, and it can vary with the subject.  For example, our Challenge A tutor brought things like microscopes, owl pellets, and sheep brains to enhance those portions of the science program.  Others will just focus on having the kids read their science papers in class without the extras.  Some bring in Roman myths and culture when they teach Latin in addition to the new concepts and doing a spot check of the homework, and some will do an introduction and spend most of the time going over the homework.

 

Question 2:  I wouldn't do Challenge with two or three students.  One reason we changed campuses was that my Challenge A student was the only one registered in April with a new tutor.  I didn't want to commit to a class that might or might not go, or to one that might have only a few students.  If interacting is the whole point, I wanted more students.  Another Challenge A program was almost full with an experienced teacher.  She had five people in the wings thinking and two slots, so we had to make a quick decision.  I don't know if CC does this or if the individuals do it, but I know several Challenge Directors who have told me that they set a minimum and cancel if they don't have that many students.  If it were me, I wouldn't do it for less than six given the amount of effort and time involved.  Nor would I put my kid into the program for less than that.

[Susan in MO]

One thing I noticed in your decision process is that you have listed only subject matter.  Since CC is Skills Based, I would encourage you to compare skills as well.  

 

Here is the post about the skills my daughter gained in Challenge A.  Found Here but copied below. (edited because I must not have used spell check.  :eek: )  Also, here is a link to our week 4 Challenge A "To Do List", so that you can see how the week is scheduled.  Sorry it lost some formatting when I pasted it to Google Docs.   

 

Really, you can't go wrong here.  Both will provide great learning opportunities.  I would encourage you to find/create group dialectic opportunities, if you choose not to go with Challenge A.  

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 We did Classical Conversation's Challenge A this year.

Writing - Bible Based Writing by IEW
Literature/Writing - Read Newberry books and discussed with Socratic method, wrote a paper on assigned topic/analysis of each book. 
Geography - Draw the world memorize Counties, Capitals, Features and Geography Terms
Research/Biology - A total of 17 research papers and memorization of Human Body Systems and terms
Latin - Latin's not so Tough and Latin Charts
Rhetoric - Don't Check Your Brain, It couldn't just happen, Catechism, and much debate/recognition of fallacies
Math - Saxon

What has amazed me more than the topics/subjects she studied are the skills my daughter acquired  this year.
 

• She has developed the skill of writing, by writing 45 papers, and by listening and discussing papers with her tutor/peers this year.
• She has developed the skill of speech, by presenting her research papers, receiving feedback, and discussing rhetoric/book topics this year.
• She has developed the skill of key word note taking, and can even speak to an audience using her notes.
• She has developed the skill of drawing, by drawing the world and body diagrams this year.
• She has developed some debate skills/analytical skills this year, and has learned to express herself even when she needed to respectfully disagree with someone.
• She has learned the skills of retaining information long term (Brain Training.)

I will never discount again the value of dialogue in this dialectic stage. If we were not a part of CC, I would work hard to get her involved in dialectic conversations with others. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Literary Mom]

Really appreciate this feedback - lots to consider!  And of course the whole wait and see part...which clearly is my strong suit ;)  

 

...One more question:  How much does it get into creation vs. evolution in Rhetoric for Challenge A (the catalog course description seems to frame it around that issue)?  And if they do emphasize that, is it from a heavily young earth perspective?  I have the book - It Couldn't Just Happen - and it seems balanced regarding young/old earth, so I'm wondering if there is young earth material in the Challenge A guide - I would love to see that portion.

[Paula in MS]

I have researched Challenge pretty thoroughly this past year trying to make a decision about what to do for 7th.  (We have completed 3 years of foundations.)  I will share with you what I know.  The challenge guide is not much more than a schedule with catechism and geography in the back.  I was extremely disappointed.  I believe that the directors have additional information; however, if I am going to be the primary teacher, I need more.  The quality of the class is highly dependent on the director.   As far as the evolution/creation debate goes, CC is strongly young earth creationists.  This will be reflected in the catechism questions and readings.  The flexibility with the debate will really depend on the tutor.  I get the impression that in our community, the students are taught that YEC is correct, and then it is debated.  The people that go the challenge route are looking for extra accountability (outside their family) for their students and the discussions among the students.  

 

I think you are going to need to decide what your priorities are.  I do understand the need to be well-informed first, though.  I think I drove everyone crazy this year with the questions.  It was also helpful for me to really research the entire challenge program to see if it was even a road I wanted to get on.  It was a difficult decision for me, personally.  Good luck on the research.  I hope you find someone to answer your questions.

[Literary Mom]

Paula, that is extremely helpful, both to know that about the guide and the stance CC takes on that issue, which is what I suspected, though the book doesn't seem to, so that's a bit odd. I will be discussing all of this with the tutor (if we have one - nothing has been finalized yet that I know of). The YEC is going to complicate things, especially with it being in the catechism. Not so much for us (I'm sort of agnostic on that one) but for...well, let's just say "others" (sorry to be cryptic but I don't want to get anyone in trouble). Still, despite my flexibility on that issue (or maybe because of it), I might not be comfortable with that approach either. So many variables at this point...sigh...must remember that God is in control...breathe  :)

[angela in ohio]

Some answers...

 

First, no, the Challenge teacher has the same guide as the parents/students. There is nothing extra that they have that parents can't get. Unless they have changed things in the last few years, the teacher just has the outline the students have and has to flesh it out if they want to.

 

I had a range of beliefs in my class of twelve. The materials are young-earth, but we had a great conversation because we had OE and YE Christians in the class. This is an area where the tutor and the other students will make a difference (a loud YE student who hasn't been taught any foundation for the belief can shut the conversation down pretty quickly, for example.) I personally believe in a young-earth, but I told all of the students to speak with their parents as their ultimate authority after moderating some great conversations in class. I was also careful which questions I asked which student, so I was covering the correct material, but no one had to say anything they didn't believe.

 

No, I don't think you can preview the Challenge guide anywhere, unless someone you know has it or you go to a convention with a CC booth. Your Challenge teacher should have hers already and be purchasing and reading materials for her training this summer, so she can let you look at it soon hopefully.

 

The structure depends on the tutor. The woman who trained me had the students do the work and then they checked it in class (boring.) I instead introduced it, bringing in additional information and background, leaving what they would cover that week to them. Let me give an example in Latin. She had the students read the lesson (this was back when they used LNST) and fill out all the pages. Then in class, she would have them go around and tell what they had for each answer. Instead, I taught the information myself, not based on the LNST but on my own knowledge of Latin, and then they read the lesson for reinforcement, did the assigned pages, checked them at home with the answer key, and brought in any questions to class. In class, we did group activities (a student leading the class in translating a sentence, board races with declensions, etc.), I taught, and I answered questions or gave extra information.

 

I wouldn't sign a child up for Challenge with less than four students, I don't think. Someone always seems to be absent, and less than three students is awkward. Really, 6-8 is ideal, I think, from my experience in CC and all the other classes I have taught.

[G5052]

If it were me, my biggest concern would be the small class and that it is a new program for your campus with a new tutor even if they are an experienced educator. I wouldn't commit under either of those circumstances, but time and money are always in short supply at our house, so I don't bite on unsure things.  Even with the dual enrollment classes my oldest is preparing for, I'm going with established classes and proven professors.

[Omma]

It's still early yet with regard to predicting the final class size.  Maybe there are others feeling the same way in that they also want to see more dc in Challenge A, or someone will move into the area (who knows?).  Now if it were the beginning of August, I'd be more concerned if there were only 3 signed up.

[G5052]

It's still early yet with regard to predicting the final class size.  Maybe there are others feeling the same way in that they also want to see more dc in Challenge A, or someone will move into the area (who knows?).  Now if it were the beginning of August, I'd be more concerned if there were only 3 signed up.

 

You're right of course.  In some areas of the country, people wait until August to register for homeschool activities.

 

Where I live though, many of the homeschool programs register in January and February, so by April the rolls are pretty much set, give or take a few.  When I taught local paid classes, I pretty much knew my August numbers by then.

[Literary Mom]

It's still early yet with regard to predicting the final class size.  Maybe there are others feeling the same way in that they also want to see more dc in Challenge A, or someone will move into the area (who knows?).  Now if it were the beginning of August, I'd be more concerned if there were only 3 signed up.

 

Marin County is quite small in terms of the Christian population, smaller still when you narrow that down to homeschoolers (in fact, only one other family in my church homeschools). I have been part of this small community for about five years (and have the pulse on it, since I was the Christian homeschool group coordinator here until last summer), so I'm pretty aware of most everyone in it. Most of the kids in this age bracket - especially boys - are in a private home-based co-op (which is not an option for us). Another friend has her daughter in CC in SF - actually several Marin families do that because either CC Marin didn't exist when they joined and now they are grafted in there or because it's bigger and almost as close to them as our campus. All I can do is hope for new families to move here this summer (which does happen) and for more Sonoma County people to come here, since there isn't a CC there yet (though one may have been recently started or will be soon).

 

I'm still very much on the fence with whether to do Challenge but I'm glad to be much better informed now, thanks to those of you who shared here. 

[shanezomom]

We are another family on the fence with Challenge B.  DS is finishing Challenge A which he loved, but next year's prospective tutor has only 4 weeks of experience in CC and she has openly stated she will be learning alongside her dd as she tutors. I am really ready to walk away if our campus director considers that to be acceptable.

 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but would online classes allow for enough interaction to replace that aspect of CC? 

[dauphin]

As I attended meeting after meeting this year on challenge, I kept hearing that that is their vision for challenge tutors now: "modeling learning alongside the students." So not only acceptable, but intentional. And as I understand it, each challenge tutor is their own director, and no longer under the umbrella of the F/E director. I think both report directly to the SM.

[G5052]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but would online classes allow for enough interaction to replace that aspect of CC? 

 

For one of mine, that has been enough -- online Latin, history, and literature.  He has commented the level of participation and expectations are much higher with online.  This is our third year of online (we did one year of Challenge I with online Latin), and the second of doing those three subjects. 

 

The other one wanted some face-to-face for 9th grade, and we got into a local 1/2 day program that covers history, literature, and writing. Latin is online as well.  We may go to online history and literature in addition for 11th and/or 12th.

 

Having a variety of outside activities and friends that they see regularly and email/text during the week has been plenty.  

 

And IMHO "experience" is pretty broadly defined for a Challenge Director.  We had a director with no CC experience who was a homeschool conference speaker and author with 15 years of co-op teaching in a wide range of areas.  And another who had been a Foundations tutor and taught Sunday School. A local director can recommend someone to the Support Manager, but it is really the Support Manager who makes the yes/no decision.

 

[G5052]

As I attended meeting after meeting this year on challenge, I kept hearing that that is their vision for challenge tutors now: "modeling learning alongside the students." So not only acceptable, but intentional. And as I understand it, each challenge tutor is their own director, and no longer under the umbrella of the F/E director. I think both report directly to the SM.

 

Actually prior to SM's they reported to state or regional directors, but it was looser and in some areas of the country, contact was infrequent.

 

The SM model is designed for more oversight and involvement.

 

I agree with you though.  Learning Latin alongside didn't work well for us.  Of course it varies, and one Challenge Director I know was a Latin major who also teaches Latin online. 

[shanezomom]

It seems I heard the CC tutors need to have a student enrolled at the campus during the year they are teaching. That would eliminate moms who have graduated their kids but who want to continue in a role like tutor. 

[angela in ohio]

I don't know that Challenge tutors/directors ever reported to the Foundations director. At least not years ago when I was in it.

 

The rule then (not sure if it has changed) was that you had to have any eligible children enrolled. So a mom who had graduated her homeschooled students could still teach, but not someone who was doing something else with her high school students, for example. You had to have homeschooled at least one child of the age group, though I have heard on these boards of campuses which don't adhere to that.

[G5052]

The rule then (not sure if it has changed) was that you had to have any eligible children enrolled. So a mom who had graduated her homeschooled students could still teach, but not someone who was doing something else with her high school students, for example. You had to have homeschooled at least one child of the age group, though I have heard on these boards of campuses which don't adhere to that.

 

Yes, this is still the case. I was contacted last week by an SM that I've never met who had been given my name. My teens aren't in Challenge, so I won't qualify until they graduate. They don't make exceptions for that.  As it is, my time is booked, and I need better-paying work for the foreseeable future.  And as one of my teens noted, it would be a contradiction to have homeschooled them part way with Challenge, then gone to other choices for high school, and then come back as a Challenge Director. That would be awkward to explain.  I wouldn't like that.

 

They do make case-by-case exceptions for people who have younger children as long as they have CC experience.

[Literary Mom]

Still on the fence...I'm calling 2014-2015 our "11th hour" school year ;)

[Heather in VA]

Yes, this is still the case. I was contacted last week by an SM that I've never met who had been given my name. My teens aren't in Challenge, so I won't qualify until they graduate. They don't make exceptions for that.

 

 

This isn't completely true. They may have this as a policy but either they don't check or they do make exceptions because when my daughter was in Challenge her tutor's oldest child was in Foundations. 

 

And for the OP... my 7th grader did Challenge B that year but after a few weeks it was clear it was not challenging at all and she moved to Challenge 1 (which did have a tutor with a high school student). But it still wasn't nearly as deep as they imply. Honestly I think that's why you can't really see much until you sign up. With the Challenge B we were in it was a combination of the material and the tutor that made it weak but even with Challenge 1, where the tutor was experience and did much more to make it better, the materials really kept it from being as challenging as it should be for high school (which is the level they market it for).

 

[Lori D.]

It seems I heard the CC tutors need to have a student enrolled at the campus during the year they are teaching. That would eliminate moms who have graduated their kids but who want to continue in a role like tutor. 

 

Hmmm… That would not explain the phone call I received back in January from a local director who is trying to organize a Challenge level, and asking me to be a Challenge tutor. Our family has never participated in CC, and both our children are grown/graduated -- both facts known in advance by the director who contacted me, as I know her slightly from the big homeschool group in which we both have participated...

 

Fortunately, I had literally JUST been reading through that big previous thread on CC, and had looked over the CC website, and could tell I would NOT at all be a good match for them, as I don't care for most of their curriculum choices, and I prefer to put together our own material and use numerous supplements. ;) I'm great at leading discussion and teaching co-op classes -- but NOT when required to use other people's specific curricula.  :laugh:

[G5052]

Hmmm… That would not explain the phone call I received back in January from a local director who is trying to organize a Challenge level, and asking me to be a Challenge tutor. Our family has never participated in CC, and both our children are grown/graduated -- both facts known in advance by the director who contacted me, as I know her slightly from the big homeschool group in which we both have participated...

 

 

Many of the Challenge Directors in my area are "retired" homeschool moms.  A few have only younger kids (requires approval though), and those that have kids must have all of them registered in either Foundations/Essentials or Challenge.  I heard of one exception for someone who had a senior doing dual enrollment with a campus that had only Challenge A and B with no higher levels near by.

[dauphin]

This isn't completely true. They may have this as a policy but either they don't check or they do make exceptions because when my daughter was in Challenge her tutor's oldest child was in Foundations. 

 

And for the OP... my 7th grader did Challenge B that year but after a few weeks it was clear it was not challenging at all and she moved to Challenge 1 (which did have a tutor with a high school student). But it still wasn't nearly as deep as they imply. Honestly I think that's why you can't really see much until you sign up. With the Challenge B we were in it was a combination of the material and the tutor that made it weak but even with Challenge 1, where the tutor was experience and did much more to make it better, the materials really kept it from being as challenging as it should be for high school (which is the level they market it for).

 

Hmmm… That would not explain the phone call I received back in January from a local director who is trying to organize a Challenge level, and asking me to be a Challenge tutor. Our family has never participated in CC, and both our children are grown/graduated -- both facts known in advance by the director who contacted me, as I know her slightly from the big homeschool group in which we both have participated...

 

Fortunately, I had literally JUST been reading through that big previous thread on CC, and had looked over the CC website, and could tell I would NOT at all be a good match for them, as I don't care for most of their curriculum choices, and I prefer to put together our own material and use numerous supplements. ;) I'm great at leading discussion and teaching co-op classes -- but NOT when required to use other people's specific curricula.  :laugh:

 

I am under the impression that the rigid enforcement of existing "rules" or guidelines has really sort of come down since January (with corporate/national leadership really emphasizing this to downlines). Obviously, both in this situation and in the grade acceleration vs. rigid birthdate cutoff, everyone knows of exceptions that have occurred in the past. I would be interested to know, though, if anyone is getting an exception for this coming year. I sort of doubt it. I was told that people have pushed for exceptions all the way up to corporate (for grade acceleration), and no one has been successful. A little bit unpleasant for those people (not myself personally, though) to be told as late as January/February (or later?) that their plans for the next year are moot (e.g., a technical 6th grader (PS grade skip) who had planned all along on moving up with her Challenge classmates and friends...who now must repeat F/E (and her friends leaving her behind)). 

[Literary Mom]

Well, this is finally settled for us. It didn't work out for the tutor we were hoping would become the Challenge Director, and he was the biggest selling point, so we're out. We're taking a full summer off so I can buckle down with planning to do 7th grade (and my younger two) the WTM way plus whatever else we throw into the mix. Definitely going to start gameschool :)  (see my other CC thread - the "famous" one, lol - for details on that)

[Lori D.]

Well, this is finally settled for us. It didn't work out for the tutor we were hoping would become the Challenge Director, and he was the biggest selling point, so we're out. We're taking a full summer off so I can buckle down with planning to do 7th grade (and my younger two) the WTM way plus whatever else we throw into the mix. Definitely going to start gameschool :)  (see my other CC thread - the "famous" one, lol - for details on that)

 

Sorry the leadership didn't pan out as hoped for… BUT, it is always a relief to have a decision made, even if it's a disappointment.

 

To "fill the gap" that will be left by CC, you might check out some online courses, for rigor and class interaction. There are a LOT of new classical class providers out there:

Veritas Press Scholar Academy (classical; grammar & secondary level classes)

Scholars Online (classical; gr. 7-12)

Angelicum Academy: Socratic Discussion (classical; gr. 3-8)

Great Books Academy: Socratic Discussion (classical; gr. 3-8)

 

Brave Writer (middle / high school -- writing and literature

Kolbe (middle school / high school)

AIM (Debra Bell's classes; gr. 7-12)

The Potter's School (gr. 4-12)

 

Also, this will give you the opportunity to check around what extracurriculars are available locally that you will now have time to try. Many provide public speaking and leadership skill development! :)

4-H

speech & debate team

community youth theater

after school club -- robotics, science, chess...

 

Or, use the extra time to pursue personal interests:

NaNoWriMo

jewelry making

cooking / cake decorating

electronics

 

You get the idea… :)

[dauphin]

What a great bunch of suggestions!

 

I'm a little intimidated by online classes - what is the best way to get our feet wet?

[Lori D.]

What a great bunch of suggestions!

 

I'm a little intimidated by online classes - what is the best way to get our feet wet?

 

 

No personal experience with online classes here, BUT… I would think there's a number of ways of going about it. I always start by asking myself a few questions to narrow it down, and then do some research to see what my options are and esp. like to ask people here what they liked/disliked or worked/didn't work and *why*.

 

Questions I might ask myself to get started:

- What do we want to accomplish through an online class (teacher with specialized knowledge, student interaction, Socratic discussion, student accountability, handing off a weak area, etc.)

- Is there a subject area that stresses ME, or I feel weak in? That would be a good choice to start with outsourcing.

- Are we using a specific curricula and would like the additional support on a class/teacher? (for example, Art of Problem Solving, Omnibus, or specific Latin program, etc.)

- Is there a specific class / subject matter / teacher your student would love? (for example, The Potter's School Fantasy or Sci-Li Lit. classes)

 

Logistical questions I'd consider:

- Do we want a "live" class or one that is video lectures with typed discussion that accrues?

- Can our schedule handle being locked in to specific days/time for a live class?

- Do we need special equipment to do this class (type of online connection, a headset, specific software….)?

- Do we need the class for high school credit and will it be enough to accomplish the credit needed?

- And SWB's blog posts on Online class checklist", and, "Why you need an online class checklist" have great additional logistical questions to consider, with some personal experiences.

 

Research:

I'd also look at past threads about the options I was considering, and ask for BTDT experience with online classes in general, and also about the specific class provider / classes / teachers. Below are a few past threads to get you started, and also check out the linked threads on online classes that are in post #1 of the pinned thread at the top of the high school board:

Outsourcing, Online Classes, Tutors… links to past threads here!

Talk to me about online class options (for middle school students)

Who is registered in online classes for 2014-2015? (thread from the high school board)

Comprehensive list of online classes (thread from the high school board)

 

 

BEST of luck as you look into online classes! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Splash]

I had my 6th grader and my 8th grader in Challenge A last year and I am happy with what they learned.  My 6th grader didn't end up doing the second semester (health issues) but my 8th grader finished.  Her writing really improved and she is much more confident in her ability to write and essay.  She made it through the Latin though it was really hard (she is dyslexic) and learned that she can learn a language.  The math portion just reviewed a lot of what she was learning at home but once in awhile she'd comment that Mrs. N taught it in a different way that really made sense.  Geography was her least favorite but as she is hearing things lately she'll comment, I know where that is.  Overall I was happy with the year.  I did know the tutor before joining and she had taught older son's 8th grade writing class in another coop that 8th now 9th grade daughter will be attending next year.  We won't be continuing with CC but I do think dd learned some valuable skills this past year.

 

[lbell]

My children and I have been in Classical Conversations for 6 years.  My daughter completed Challenge A last year and is in B this year.  I would only do A if you plan to do B.  Challenge A is pretty basic with lots of memorization. They use Lost Tools of Writing which both the students and parents hated in Challenge A.  It helped for debate, however, in challenge B but really didn't produce great writers.  It did produce great friendships though.  If you know there is a great tutor and kids in the class, I'd consider it, but if you don't know anything about the teacher and community I  wouldn't risk it.

 

I have been a Classical Conversations tutor, Foundations & Essentials Director, and am presently a Challenge Director.  Unfortunately, I feel like I'm in prison counting down the days until release. I love my students and families, but am disillusioned with CC's business model.  They call everyone "independent contractors" but the list of rules we must follow, meetings and training is growing and is focused on serving CC and worshiping Leigh Bortin's and her ideas rather than thinking for ourselves and serving our local families. The attitude where I'm at is, "Do it our way or get out1"  I thought is was just the new managers that were put in place in our area, but I see that it is happening everywhere.  

 

One really big change is the push to grow that has resulted in unqualified people tutoring, directing & managing.  Let's face it, some people have the gift to tutor and direct and some don't.  My son is prisoner in a Foundations classroom where not even the history songs are used because the tutor can't carry a tune and does not want to use technology, which is forbidden by the "laws" of Classical Conversations, to play them.  Get real!!!

 

The other big change in my area is requiring communities to start in August so that they are done by Thanksgiving.  This means that Challenge classes which meet for 15 weeks each semester will be starting the beginning of August against the wishes of most of the parents. I'm sure they could fight it, I have in the past reminding them that I'm an independent contractor, but so far no one except the parents have spoken up. 

 

In a spirit of fun this should be the CC Pledge:

 

I pledge allegience to CC 

the self-proclaimed leaders of home education

and to Leigh Botins who created it all

one corporation, ruling us all,, without individuality or questioning from all.

 

Classical Conversations started in our community to provide community & accountability.  I wanted it and was excited to be a part of it, but I now find myself in bondage just like the Israelites who asked God for a king.

 

If you want a Classical, Christian community for your children keep your independence and start a co-op and check out veritespress.com, wilsonhillacademy.com, classicaladademicpress.com, memoriapress.com and others for online classes. That's what I'm going to do.

[Zoo Keeper]

VERY OLD THREAD..... :zombie:

 

I think the OP has probably moved on, and is not seeking more opinions. ;)

[Literary Mom]

Actually I'm still here, and her opinion is appreciated and timely, because I was just reluctantly revisiting the idea of Challenge for high school (my oldest starts 9th grade this fall), but definitely having my same reservations. Also because it would require commuting or else being the tutor myself. 

[Lori D.]

Actually I'm still here, and her opinion is appreciated and timely, because I was just reluctantly revisiting the idea of Challenge for high school (my oldest starts 9th grade this fall), but definitely having my same reservations. Also because it would require commuting or else being the tutor myself. 

 

You might take a look at the WTM Academy online classes for a few of your high school courses. In your original post, you had expressed interest in the WTM. It is classical. You would have strong teacher support/grading. And you would not need to commute or be the tutor. ;) As I recall, CC at the Challenge level runs about $1200? That would get you 2 WTM Academy classes in History and Literature/Writing -- or whatever subjects you feel would be best to outsource… 

 

Also, as I recall, CC uses Saxon and Apologia, and I believe the Virtual Homeschool Group is a free online co-op and has classes for both of those, so that might be co-op support option for another 2 courses.

 

Just a thought! :) BEST of luck in deciding! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[G5052]

I was thinking about this today because I was contacted by a Challenge Director looking for help with the National Latin Exam. I used to do it for my CC group, and it was frustrating because Henle doesn't "fit" well and then people would be mad at me because they didn't do well. You have to do extra study to do well on the NLE with Henle.

 

Frankly I still don't regret our choice to not continue CC any longer. We were able to up the level of each subject significantly, and the scheduling was easier, even with live online classes.

 

IMHO paying for a few online classes were a better investment for us in the long run. Some providers have payment plans now.

Edited February 10, 2016 by G5052

[Heather in VA]

I agree with those recommending online classes vs Challenge. It's been several years since we tried Challenge but we found it to be lacking in just about everything and we had to supplement all subjects (to be fair we didn't do math with CC). 

[Literary Mom]

You might take a look at the WTM Academy online classes for a few of your high school courses. In your original post, you had expressed interest in the WTM. It is classical. You would have strong teacher support/grading. And you would not need to commute or be the tutor. ;) As I recall, CC at the Challenge level runs about $1200? That would get you 2 WTM Academy classes in History and Literature/Writing -- or whatever subjects you feel would be best to outsource… 

 

Also, as I recall, CC uses Saxon and Apologia, and I believe the Virtual Homeschool Group is a free online co-op and has classes for both of those, so that might be co-op support option for another 2 courses.

 

Just a thought! :) BEST of luck in deciding! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Actually, we've been WTMers from the beginning (seven years ago). I was just a bit too rigid with that in some points, so I was allowing us more freedom to go in other directions, like Charlotte Mason. But the book is always on hand and I will definitely use it to help devise a plan for the coming year(s). 

 

This old thread being dug up was serendipitous and pretty much put the nail in the coffin for Challenge - I just never like to say never, because you never know ;)

 

We got a taste of online classes this past fall when we tried Logos Academy. It wasn't terrible, but one class (on which the whole diploma program hinged) was not the right fit (long story), so we dropped all of them (too confining to follow their schedule, homework protocol, etc.), and now my daughter is very adamant that she doesn't want to do online classes again - she wants to work one-on-one with me, independently, and possibly in a small group. We do have some co-op options (unfortunately involving commuting again), so we may go that route, or we may just keep doing what we're doing. We also might trying to start a class and/or club to provide the group dynamic (possibly literature, drama/theater, journalism). I am not, however, ruling out online options, particularly in subjects where I am less proficient (i.e. advanced math/science). 

 

I appreciate the input :)