PeterPan Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 is brilliant. That's all. :thumbup: This woman TOTALLY gets my ds and how to break things into parts to let you attack it slowly and carefully till understands. I'm using her ebooks, and today I was reading about WHY my poor boy doesn't get that 5 is 2+3 even when he can see it happening on his fingers. Brilliant analysis and instruction on how to get in there, and we're actually seeing (albeit slow) progress. :hurray: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Hey, not fair! You can't post about fantastic success without sharing links to which book you are referencing! (We have really liked Ronit Bird too, but I don't remember seeing the section you are raving about) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Good point!! Ronit Bird has two e-books, and I think they may not replicate material from her other books. I'm not really sure. The ebooks have videos included that don't stream but are downloaded, meaning you can watch without wifi. They've been awesome for us, because you look at a page, do what's on the page, and when that clicks move on to the next page. It has been perfect for us so far. I bought them through iTunes, and they were $10 each. We're doing the Dot Patterns book right now, and we have the Cuisinaire Rods ebook to follow up when we finish (someday!) the Dot Patterns. PS. She has the printables on her website. You won't have a clue of the brilliance in how to USE them without the books, but I'm glad it has the printables too. We just print them onto pretty paper and play our games and do the tasks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 She's awesome. I feel like all people who teach math should be familiar with her approach and methodologies because they are not difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 She's awesome. I feel like all people who teach math should be familiar with her approach and methodologies because they are not difficult. I don't know. There's nothing in this that's so different from what RightStart had us doing. It's just that she BREAKS EVERYTHING DOWN into the most detailed, unbelievably detailed steps. Did I mention how incredibly attentive she is to detail? I mean, the woman nitpicks over how you arrange your 3 dots, because 3 dots done wrong don't communicate the same. Everything is broken down so carefully. That's how far in we had to go. Other curricula have the pieces (you need to understand quantities, 5 as made up of components, etc.) but they just don't NEED to go into this detail for a NT dc. Wasn't necessary for my dd either. My dd, just by living and talking with us, tested into RS B (1st gr) at newly 5. My ds, at 5.5, can't tell me he has 10 fingers. There are no leaps for him with the math. I can't just explain something and watch lightbulbs click. It's like the difference between SWR and Barton. SWR is fine, but some kids are going to need that broken down, till every single assumption is ripped away and you rebuild with complete understanding. There are no assumptions with the Ronit Bird stuff. She's just ripped it all away to let you dig in. But you know, for a regular dc, RightStart had all the same basic concepts. A regular dc could make the leaps and get there. Ds just can't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am so happy for you both! I puffy heart love RB too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyomarie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 OhElizabeth, there are so many newer names and math curricula that have come out since my children were young. I've been trying to figure out what items to pick up for future endeavors, including dialoguing with my daughter as she sorts out what to use for her children who are showing signs of needing a strong multi-sensory approach to learning. You have just convinced me that I need to check out Ronit Bird. Oh, drat! I guess I can't use the e-books because I do not own an iPad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am so happy for you both! I puffy heart love RB too! I'm so glad to hear it!! :D I need to update my sig so we can have a little RB fan club or something. I was starting to feel kind of alone in this odd land, doing these very slow steps to build basic understanding. It's like in the days when we were picking up his jaw while everyone else was speaking. :svengo: I'm happy he's getting there, and I'm even more happy to hear we're not alone. :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberly Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Choosing math for my LD DS9 is the only decision I need to make for the 2014/2015 school year. He's begging not to leave Singapore Math. Similar to how Barton is great, but some kids need LIPS first, I feel that Singapore Math is great for him, but he still needs to go back further. He's gifted with math reasoning but can't calculate or count to save his life. Please tell me where to begin my research into Ronit Bird material, and please tell me it won't require many of my brain cell to learn. Oh I know, it's flabbergasting! We have test scores from stuff our SLP has done, and she says ds will turn out to be in the gifted range when we do full evals. He can't tell me he has 10 fingers. He can't look at 5 fingers on his hand and recognize that 3 and 2 is 5. But he's plenty high IQ, at least bright, maybe into gifted. It's TOTALLY nuts. I'm using the 2 ebooks you can buy on iTunes for $10. Ronit Bird has a website, probably www.ronitbird.com She has regular print books with cds of the printables. I haven't done those, because they'd be way over the head of my 5 yo. We're using the ebook on dot patterns, and that's what my boy can use. Heathermomster could help you better or look at the samples on the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Ariel Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Wow, this sounds so cool! I wish I would have had this for my ds14 when he was younger. He was eventually diagnosed with dyscalculia among other things. He still has an occasional day when he has NO CLUE how many times 6 can go into 8 or similar types of issues. Currently doing TT6. And my ds also had no idea when he was around 9 or so how many toes he had, either! His SLP made him take off his shoes and socks and count. The only one of all my kids who didn't know that without specifically being told how to figure it out. Good luck to you and your little guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Wow, this sounds so cool! I wish I would have had this for my ds14 when he was younger. He was eventually diagnosed with dyscalculia among other things. He still has an occasional day when he has NO CLUE how many times 6 can go into 8 of similar types of issues. Currently doing TT6. And my ds also had no idea when he was around 9 or so how many toes he had, either! His SLP made him take off his shoes and socks and count. The only one of all my kids who didn't know that without specifically being told how to figure it out. Good luck to you and your little guy! Well you could look at the regular RB books and see if any of them would help you. And yeah, I think you're confirming what my gut knows, that he's going to get a few labels... Welcome to the boards btw! :) http://www.ronitbird.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Choosing math for my LD DS9 is the only decision I need to make for the 2014/2015 school year. He's begging not to leave Singapore Math. Similar to how Barton is great, but some kids need LIPS first, I feel that Singapore Math is great for him, but he still needs to go back further. He's gifted with math reasoning but can't calculate or count to save his life. Please tell me where to begin my research into Ronit Bird material, and please tell me it won't require many of my brain cell to learn. Where does he struggle specifically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I don't know. There's nothing in this that's so different from what RightStart had us doing. It's just that she BREAKS EVERYTHING DOWN into the most detailed, unbelievably detailed steps. Did I mention how incredibly attentive she is to detail? I mean, the woman nitpicks over how you arrange your 3 dots, because 3 dots done wrong don't communicate the same. Everything is broken down so carefully. That's how far in we had to go. Other curricula have the pieces (you need to understand quantities, 5 as made up of components, etc.) but they just don't NEED to go into this detail for a NT dc. Wasn't necessary for my dd either. My dd, just by living and talking with us, tested into RS B (1st gr) at newly 5. My ds, at 5.5, can't tell me he has 10 fingers. There are no leaps for him with the math. I can't just explain something and watch lightbulbs click. It's like the difference between SWR and Barton. SWR is fine, but some kids are going to need that broken down, till every single assumption is ripped away and you rebuild with complete understanding. There are no assumptions with the Ronit Bird stuff. She's just ripped it all away to let you dig in. But you know, for a regular dc, RightStart had all the same basic concepts. A regular dc could make the leaps and get there. Ds just can't. In theory, teachers familiar with the methodologies would push and press only where necessary to teach the concept. I agree that not every child needs the dot work, but it would be nice for the teachers to recognize the students that do require it. Math understanding and teaching in our country just stinks.. RB teaches at math conferences in England. A retired teacher friend and I always joke about visiting London to hear RB speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberly Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think you should try the e-books that OhE has been talking about. Here is the first one. OneStep uses an on-line program called Dynamo math. The program is from Great Britain and written specifically for students with maths disability. Our sons differ in that my son has processing speed issues and struggles with procedures. He has dysgraphia too. Make it a priority to teach your son to type and maybe explore a math writing program called Efofex. I have more to mention, but I need to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 In theory, teachers familiar with the methodologies would push and press only where necessary to teach the concept. I agree that not every child needs the dot work, but it would be nice for the teachers to recognize the students that do require it. Math understanding and teaching in our country just stinks.. RB teaches at math conferences in England. A retired teacher friend and I always joke about visiting London to hear RB speak. Good point! I remember talking with someone about the BJU math and asking if the person was using the dot pattern instruction in the BJU K5 or 1, I forget which. She looks at me funny and says it was weird so she SKIPPED it. :svengo: Even when publishers PUT IN the proper theoretical/conceptual foundation, you still get a percentage of teachers who are die-hard in the rote camp who have no interest in teaching conceptually, only pounding with drills and repetition and handing of bad grades... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's so funny you made this post recently! Somehow I completely missed it but 2 days ago I was browsing youtube videos to listen to while I take a shower (I often put on Circe Institute talks or stuff on dyslexia or whatever) and I stumbled across a video on dyscalculia by Ronit Bird. I listened to it and by the time my shower was over I was convinced this woman had been spying on my daughter.....her observations on dyscalculia were so accurate to what I've been experiencing! Just that day I had given Daisy a post-test for Singapore 1B (yes, first grade....that was a shock when she flunked every placement test for every curriculum above first grade) and she had failed it again. And lots of it was crazy mistakes. It would look like wild guessing to the untrained eye but now that I've gotten more used to her dyslexic brain and how it works I recognized exactly what happened. But what frustrated me most was that she was unable to identify her errors even after I pointed them out. She didn't get why 14 + 9 = 13 was so ridiculous, lol! I'm like "but honey you were supposed to ADD and somehow you ended up with an even smaller number!" and she just looked perplexed....and a little like Mom had lost her mind ;) Anyway, so all this to say that I am so relieved to find Ronit Bird's stuff, it looks very much like Barton Reading.....but for Math. It's not quite as open-and-go and systematic but I think we'll get there just fine with using a couple of her books and then proceeding with our typical math curriculum. Her comments on number sense just really hit home and I even played the video for DH and he said "wow, that's Daisy exactly!" It's a relief to find people saying "this is the problem....here's what we can do to teach her math with that problem" after the school was telling us all year that she had almost nonexistent number sense and yet they couldn't do anything for her but continue having the support teacher help her with her homework and tests. So I will be joining the Ronit Bird fan club, if only because she was able to accurately identify the problem and has made some resources that seem to address the root of the problem. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's so funny you made this post recently! Somehow I completely missed it but 2 days ago I was browsing youtube videos to listen to while I take a shower (I often put on Circe Institute talks or stuff on dyslexia or whatever) and I stumbled across a video on dyscalculia by Ronit Bird. I listened to it and by the time my shower was over I was convinced this woman had been spying on my daughter.....her observations on dyscalculia were so accurate to what I've been experiencing! Just that day I had given Daisy a post-test for Singapore 1B (yes, first grade....that was a shock when she flunked every placement test for every curriculum above first grade) and she had failed it again. And lots of it was crazy mistakes. It would look like wild guessing to the untrained eye but now that I've gotten more used to her dyslexic brain and how it works I recognized exactly what happened. But what frustrated me most was that she was unable to identify her errors even after I pointed them out. She didn't get why 14 + 9 = 13 was so ridiculous, lol! I'm like "but honey you were supposed to ADD and somehow you ended up with an even smaller number!" and she just looked perplexed....and a little like Mom had lost her mind ;) Anyway, so all this to say that I am so relieved to find Ronit Bird's stuff, it looks very much like Barton Reading.....but for Math. It's not quite as open-and-go and systematic but I think we'll get there just fine with using a couple of her books and then proceeding with our typical math curriculum. Her comments on number sense just really hit home and I even played the video for DH and he said "wow, that's Daisy exactly!" It's a relief to find people saying "this is the problem....here's what we can do to teach her math with that problem" after the school was telling us all year that she had almost nonexistent number sense and yet they couldn't do anything for her but continue having the support teacher help her with her homework and tests. So I will be joining the Ronit Bird fan club, if only because she was able to accurately identify the problem and has made some resources that seem to address the root of the problem. :) As Heathermomster mentioned, we are currently using Ronit Bird paired with Dynamo Math for my DD. Although we don't have a formal diagnosis since no one in our area had even heard of dyscalculia when we had her assessed, I wonder. DD has struggled with math forever. When she left brick and mortar after 5th grade she was unable to pass 2nd grade level tests. Yet she had A's and B's on her report card. Turns out her teacher was having her redo and redo the multiple choice answers until she got the right one. Well, when there are only 4 choices to begin with and your teacher just subtly indicated that you gave the wrong answer... I don't think the teacher knew how to teach her, once she realized just how hard she was struggling. And she had that same math teacher for 3 years. So I don't know if she is truly dyscalculic or just had a lousy teacher that made little effort to help her truly learn the material. Anyway, she struggles, and she hated math. But RB and Dynamo math have been great! I have loved Dynamo Math and Ronit Bird together. They pair well. And Dynamo Math has given DD something she can do independent of me and it reinforces the patterns we are working on with RB. We do the DM activity together (nearly every lesson has an activity for visual, auditory and kinesthetic introduction of the concept), then she does the on-line math problems, then a worksheet. You can generate as many worksheets as you want, each one is a bit different. Prep for each lesson usually only takes a few minutes. Lessons usually also take just a few minutes. Maybe 20 minutes tops from beginning to end, depending on how fast they grasp everything. Sometimes DD finishes everything in 10, sometimes it is closer to 30, but the average has been about 20 for all three things. The only issue we ran into was that some British terms or sentence structure confused her on what they were asking for on-line. It hasn't happened often but I can usually look at the screen, give a brief explanation and off she goes. Afterwards, she can do the worksheets almost always without any help from me, too. And the lowest score she ever gets is 90. It boosts her confidence and reinforces basic math patterns. It does go way, way back to basic pattern math and single digit addition/subtraction, really basic number line stuff, etc. It doesn't break things down quite as small as RB so RB is great for additional steps and patterns. I don't think this program would be needed for a NT child unless they were really young but it has really finally opened up some doors here for my very definitely NOT NT child. (DS dumped the program and switched to Math In Focus a while back but it did help him with addition and subtraction speed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberly Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 OneStepAtaTime, thanks for the Dynamo Math suggestion, I'll definitely look into that for this coming year's math curriculum. I love Singapore but Daisy definitely needs things spelled out just a little bit more. The number bonds and focus on tens and ones places and pictures have definitely helped her but her number sense is apparently abysmal. Oh, and your daughter sounds exactly like mine in her public school experiences. Daisy was doing 5th grade math and making A's and B's!! They told me math was a strong point for her! But what was happening was that like you experienced she was receiving so many "accommodations" that she wasn't doing the work herself. I'm constantly telling her I don't have the answer written on my forehead and to look at the numbers or objects in front of her. I've actually taken to being silly and just stick my tongue out and make a silly face when she is doing a math problem and looks to my face searching for the answer :) We did Exploring Numbers Through Dot Patterns this morning, the first activity with numbers 1-6, dice, and a number track with the fives shaded. Daisy really struggled with it :( She did okay after a lot of practice but I was seriously discouraged to realize how little number sense she had. I'm so glad it described exactly why even numbers are even and odd numbers are odd because she had no clue! And she's still going to need more practice to really grasp the concept with any automaticity. It's hard because she's quick to *think* she understands something and just run with it and yet she often doesn't truly 'get' it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Thanks. I will check it out. We have been using R&S because of how slow and repetitive it is. This will be a good read for me, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 OneStepAtaTime, thanks for the Dynamo Math suggestion, I'll definitely look into that for this coming year's math curriculum. I love Singapore but Daisy definitely needs things spelled out just a little bit more. The number bonds and focus on tens and ones places and pictures have definitely helped her but her number sense is apparently abysmal. Oh, and your daughter sounds exactly like mine in her public school experiences. Daisy was doing 5th grade math and making A's and B's!! They told me math was a strong point for her! But what was happening was that like you experienced she was receiving so many "accommodations" that she wasn't doing the work herself. I'm constantly telling her I don't have the answer written on my forehead and to look at the numbers or objects in front of her. I've actually taken to being silly and just stick my tongue out and make a silly face when she is doing a math problem and looks to my face searching for the answer :) We did Exploring Numbers Through Dot Patterns this morning, the first activity with numbers 1-6, dice, and a number track with the fives shaded. Daisy really struggled with it :( She did okay after a lot of practice but I was seriously discouraged to realize how little number sense she had. I'm so glad it described exactly why even numbers are even and odd numbers are odd because she had no clue! And she's still going to need more practice to really grasp the concept with any automaticity. It's hard because she's quick to *think* she understands something and just run with it and yet she often doesn't truly 'get' it. I know it's terribly hard, but don't rush through the book. It's awesome stuff, but just discipline yourself to read one page/screen on the iPad and STOP. Do that, and if that clicks, THEN do the next page. So it sounds like you did the entire chapter in one day. Is that correct or did you break it up? If you go back to the beginning of the chapter (p. 9) you'll notice she breaks it into *8* sections. In other words, it may take you 8, 16, or even 24 days to get through that one chapter. :svengo: Don't do so much at once. Go back and do just page 9 and nail it to mastery. On page 9 (the first page of chapter 1) she gets introduced to 1-4 as dice patterns. Do JUST THAT. Talk through each one very slowly, lingering, touching, hiding and revealing, making them with nuggets, correlating them to numbers (speech or written). Slow it down. Some kids have visual memory issues and won't actually remember the patterns, and this is a fundamental concept. Going all the way to the end with evens/odds, etc. is jumping the gun. First do the first thing, and get her to where she has MASTERED and really KNOWS the dot patterns for 1-4. When she has that, THEN move on to the first half of page 10, which is 5 and 6. When she has those two numbers solid consistently (which took my ds a while), THEN start the slavonic track on the other half of 10. I know there's an age difference. I think the principle is the same though, to recognize that each one of those sections is hugely important to their understanding and to SLOW DOWN. Do each section till it's MASTERED, even if it takes a few days. There's a point in teaching where someone sorta gets something. Then they get something and it become easy enough that they enjoy it. Then they move on mentally and are bored by it. I try to do the section enough times that we move through those stages from sorta gets it to enjoys working with it to bored by it because they've really nailed it. You can't go wrong teaching these things and working with them to mastery. RB is going to take those really simple concepts you do on page 9 and build on them in the remaining chapters. Dwell on each step till you get mastery. And if you did all that, then never mind me. :thumbup: At least in our house, odd/even is taking a while. You've got language on top of visual work and math concepts, kwim? They're going to go at it lots of ways with RB. Just slow down, linger. It's ok to spend a long time on something and let it sink in. Might take a couple weeks even. When we started ST (speech therapy), we had to do things you wouldn't think you'd have to do for speech, like pick up his jaw. Every single sound has been that tedious, going through each step and building all the motor control for every sound, every location, speed, etc. I'm realizing this math is the same way. It's so tedious and detailed the way you have to go in and nail every single little facet. These are facets that come naturally to most kids, just like most kids motor plan picking up their jaw. And if that's what it takes, that's what we're gonna do, kwim? I'm just grateful RB HAS those steps. So slow down, do each one. Chapter 1 and 8 steps. Try 2-3 days on each step and see if that helps. ​PS. We use nuggets from a mancala game for our RB lessons. You can use little colored index cards to form the dot patterns with the nuggets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I know it's terribly hard, but don't rush through the book. It's awesome stuff, but just discipline yourself to read one page/screen on the iPad and STOP. Do that, and if that clicks, THEN do the next page. So it sounds like you did the entire chapter in one day. Is that correct or did you break it up? If you go back to the beginning of the chapter (p. 9) you'll notice she breaks it into *8* sections. In other words, it may take you 8, 16, or even 24 days to get through that one chapter. :svengo: Don't do so much at once. Go back and do just page 9 and nail it to mastery. On page 9 (the first page of chapter 1) she gets introduced to 1-4 as dice patterns. Do JUST THAT. Talk through each one very slowly, lingering, touching, hiding and revealing, making them with nuggets, correlating them to numbers (speech or written). Slow it down. Some kids have visual memory issues and won't actually remember the patterns, and this is a fundamental concept. Going all the way to the end with evens/odds, etc. is jumping the gun. First do the first thing, and get her to where she has MASTERED and really KNOWS the dot patterns for 1-4. When she has that, THEN move on to the first half of page 10, which is 5 and 6. When she has those two numbers solid consistently (which took my ds a while), THEN start the slavonic track on the other half of 10. I know there's an age difference. I think the principle is the same though, to recognize that each one of those sections is hugely important to their understanding and to SLOW DOWN. Do each section till it's MASTERED, even if it takes a few days. There's a point in teaching where someone sorta gets something. Then they get something and it become easy enough that they enjoy it. Then they move on mentally and are bored by it. I try to do the section enough times that we move through those stages from sorta gets it to enjoys working with it to bored by it because they've really nailed it. You can't go wrong teaching these things and working with them to mastery. RB is going to take those really simple concepts you do on page 9 and build on them in the remaining chapters. Dwell on each step till you get mastery. And if you did all that, then never mind me. :thumbup: At least in our house, odd/even is taking a while. You've got language on top of visual work and math concepts, kwim? They're going to go at it lots of ways with RB. Just slow down, linger. It's ok to spend a long time on something and let it sink in. Might take a couple weeks even. When we started ST (speech therapy), we had to do things you wouldn't think you'd have to do for speech, like pick up his jaw. Every single sound has been that tedious, going through each step and building all the motor control for every sound, every location, speed, etc. I'm realizing this math is the same way. It's so tedious and detailed the way you have to go in and nail every single little facet. These are facets that come naturally to most kids, just like most kids motor plan picking up their jaw. And if that's what it takes, that's what we're gonna do, kwim? I'm just grateful RB HAS those steps. So slow down, do each one. Chapter 1 and 8 steps. Try 2-3 days on each step and see if that helps. ​PS. We use nuggets from a mancala game for our RB lessons. You can use little colored index cards to form the dot patterns with the nuggets. Okay, see now I'm super confused. The first pages up until the activity didn't look like they were for the kid to read? And my DD has serious language delays, 75% of the way Ronit Bird wrote that chapter, while perfectly clear and nice for me, would be abysmally confusing for my daughter. I just looked back and I didn't really see any other activities?? Like there aren't any instructions, it just seems to be explaining the concept for the instructor. In fact it's talking directly and exclusively to the instructor so I thought that was the stuff for me and that the two activities were for DD. Am I supposed to just re-word each page to her? So what am I supposed to do to teach the number dot patterns besides the dice? I mean, even breaking it down to the dice seemed extremely easy to me. And how do I 'teach' the slavonic shading? I didn't see any activity, step, or instructions for exactly what to do with the number track. I figured it was just a tool, self-explanatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Okay, see now I'm super confused. The first pages up until the activity didn't look like they were for the kid to read? And my DD has serious language delays, 75% of the way Ronit Bird wrote that chapter, while perfectly clear and nice for me, would be abysmally confusing for my daughter. I just looked back and I didn't really see any other activities?? Like there aren't any instructions, it just seems to be explaining the concept for the instructor. In fact it's talking directly and exclusively to the instructor so I thought that was the stuff for me and that the two activities were for DD. Am I supposed to just re-word each page to her? So what am I supposed to do to teach the number dot patterns besides the dice? I mean, even breaking it down to the dice seemed extremely easy to me. And how do I 'teach' the slavonic shading? I didn't see any activity, step, or instructions for exactly what to do with the number track. I figured it was just a tool, self-explanatory. I agree there's that gap. We're used to working with curriculum, and curriculum will often have scripts and then a section at the bottom or on the side with further notes for Mom. As you say, this is written to the tutor, and yes you have to figure out how to connect that to her. Heather has given some ideas, and I think if they don't jump out at you for a given page you can always ask. I think the main thing is to make sure that the dc actually understands the concept in the way the materials state. If they get it and can demonstrate they get it, then you're good to move on. Just don't move on without actually seeing the click, that would be my advice. So yes, what you're saying makes sense. So when you say it would be confusing to her, I agree you're not meant to read it to her. Does she actually GET the concepts on page 9 and can she demonstrate that she gets them? And for the following pages leading up to the games/activities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 She seems to understand copying and recreating the dot patterns and identifying the numbers. We practiced throwing dice for each other with my 5 and 3 year old and she did well, no mistakes though I'd say a couple tries were't as quick as I'd prefer. But in general I'd say she gets that concept. When it comes to the shaded number track she has no clue what the heck I'm talking about. She doesn't consistently understand halves when it comes to numbers. Shapes...yes, but numbers no. Even the shaded number track, which to me bridges that gap, seemed confusing to her. If she puts 4 beads (we're using these large flat red and yellow glass beads I have) on the number track she can't tell me whether the 4 beads is less than or more than 5. Totally clueless. And if I have to connect this to her all by myself we are sunk! My brain just doesn't work this way, I just cannot slow my brain down anymore to meet her where she's at. I was the kid who left high school because I was tired of the dumbed down curriculum and bored to the point of serious depression. I so want to help my daughter but I am horribly ill-equipped for this kind of remediation. Barton works great for me because I can just shut off my brain and go with it and she gets all the deadening repetition she needs. Otherwise I'd be in the looney bin for sure. Is there a more basic curriculum that could be used that teaches this stuff and then I could just supplement with Ronit Bird activities on the side? Or maybe we should all just sign a petition to get Susan Barton and Ronit Bird together to co-create a math curriculum to match Barton Reading ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 You definitely need to be the instructor with RB. But it really helped me when I paired RB with DM. Dynamo Math gives you an activity scripted out to tell you how to help teach the concepts. The script is short and sometimes I had to sit and ponder a minute to realize what they were saying, but it really did help. And DM includes dot patterns. I found it helped me to have both RB and DM as resources to help me teach the concepts. And then DD and DS could independently apply those concepts on-line and with the worksheets through Dynamo Math. Just thought I would share this in case it helps at all. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 I missed it. Why does she need to tell you 4 is more or less than 5? I can get why you're asking it of her, but did the RB lesson say precisely they need to do that? It has been a couple weeks since we did that, but wasn't it having you do a literal physical connect? Like you roll 3, put three beads on. Roll 2, put 2 beads on. It's only about the physical motion and connecting the physical to the number. I agree, my ds struggles with that too and would give screwy answers to those questions. I know from the testing the SLP has done that he's a kinesthetic learner, so I'm comfortable letting him learn and develop a sense of the numbers by doing the math, feeling the math, placing and moving the math. Remediating is hard for EVERYONE. It's not hard for just you. When we started my ds' speech therapy, the SLP was constantly begging me to stop asking him to do more advanced things he wasn't ready to do. It's really hard to look at the small chunk they expect and say YES, this is enough, this is exactly what he needs to do right now, and let those small, simple chunks add up. They WILL add up, and I don't think you need another curriculum. What you're doing would be hard for ANYONE, because it's a new thought process. It's not just you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 OhE, no the less vs more wasn't in the instructions but that was me trying to fill in that gap I had seen between RB explaining the shaded track to the instructor but not in the activity. So if that isn't teaching the concepts described earlier then I don't really understand what is. :( This is where I'm frustrated. I have no clue how to remediate this. But the school didn't even want to try so I figured someone needed to. Except now I have an end of year portfolio due in 2 months and zero progress to show on it. And I haven't had time for history/science because we spend so much time on 1st grade math and reading. It'll look especially bad for me because the school had her making a's on 5th grade math tests....because the special ed teacher sat there and fed her the answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Our state requires portfolios or standardized testing or options agreed upon with the school district. For your state can the portfolio evaluator mark "performing at ability level" or some such thing on the letter and it's done? That's what they do in our state. I understand your frustration though. Chocolate maybe? Take a break for a day and maybe when you come back fresh you'll have knew perspective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Imagine, the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa will answer your number sense questions and help you teach in general. Math remediation should take no more time than regular coursework. Students with maths disability often struggle with working memory, processing speed, and EF deficits. Limit math to 20 minutes and call it good. Think of a compromised working memory as a half filled coffee table or car dashboard. Once it is filled, you can't add more information. Use RB as written. If you must add more, save that math for the afternoon and let it be something like a basic logic activity booklet from Cranium Crackers or even Developmental Math Lev 1 and/or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Imagine, the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa will answer your number sense questions and help you teach in general. Math remediation should take no more time than regular coursework. Students with maths disability often struggle with working memory, processing speed, and EF deficits. Limit math to 20 minutes and call it good. Think of a compromised working memory as a half filled coffee table or car dashboard. Once it is filled, you can't add more information. Use RB as written. If you must add more, save that math for the afternoon and let it be something like a basic logic activity booklet from Cranium Crackers or even Developmental Math Lev 1 and/or 2. That's interesting, because that's what I concluded. I think at some point we'll have to break down and write math, but maybe the RB stuff will have us doing that later? It just seems like that main book takes you through a LOT of concepts. Now to go look at your goodies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 RB is absolutely the pre-cursor to written math. Recall, I brought DS home second semester 5th grade and taught him to type. He was deeply ensconced in Wilson tutoring at the time and merely surviving math. His addition and subtraction facts to 20 were solid, and he knew multi facts of 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s, and 11s. Once home, I realized that math could no longer be ignored. It was this time three years ago that I cracked and spent $$$ on these ridiculously expensive math books. Like Imagine, I was torn about forgoing a math curriculum completely. Again, I just realized that I had to stop and back way up to ensure the fundamental math concepts were there. We did that, Praise HIM, and I've never regretted the decision to stop math, back up, and review. Looking at the Developmental Math samples, it seems that those worksheets would support RB and provide a curriculum that Imagine could provide to her state. We've used the Cranium Crackers in the past. I believe the Cranium Crackers challenge reasoning skills with minimal arithmetic, and I referred to the exercises as mathematical reasoning practice. We performed the exercises together because they were challenging even for an adult. I would not expect Robbie to be ready yet for that sort of challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Yup, that's what I'm realizing, that for some time (maybe even several years), RB may be about it for us. I just never would have expected that, but it actually works. I've got someone backchannel sending me ideas for other ways to make things kinesthetic too. It just takes time to let it all come together in the pea brain, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYHSMom Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 On 4/12/2014 at 1:36 PM, PeterPan said: Yup, that's what I'm realizing, that for some time (maybe even several years), RB may be about it for us. I just never would have expected that, but it actually works. I've got someone backchannel sending me ideas for other ways to make things kinesthetic too. It just takes time to let it all come together in the pea brain, lol. Hi! I’m just wondering how RB worked out for you many years later. I have been working through dot patterns with my DD9 and am looking for hope! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 7, 2022 Author Share Posted July 7, 2022 9 hours ago, NYHSMom said: Hi! I’m just wondering how RB worked out for you many years later. I have been working through dot patterns with my DD9 and am looking for hope! Ronit Bird has been great for us. Just keep plugging along. No one can say where a given child can get to. All you can do is be faithful. How is Dots working for your dd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iansmemom Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 anyone still a part of this thread to give an updated review? I'm considering getting the first book. Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 On 2/12/2023 at 7:52 PM, Iansmemom said: anyone still a part of this thread to give an updated review? I'm considering getting the first book. Help! What do you want to know? She updated her books and all her work is amazing, highly recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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