Those of you who were impacted by the big Circe thread of 2012 check in here

[birchbark]

I am interested in hearing a follow up on how the past couple years have gone. For me, reading that thread was a turning point in our homeschool. Before then, I was all about curriculum and worrying about if I'd chosen the right one and if I could cover it all before 12th grade was completed. There were so many good books and programs and skills to study! My desire to give a comprehensive education led to a frazzled schoolday of jumping from one thing to another with all the joy sucked out. Upper grades as well as adding more students was looking ever more grim.

 

Then along came the thread. I felt like someone had removed me from my cluttered life and took me up in a plane to 35,000 feet. All of a sudden I could see what was important, where I wanted to go, and how I needed to simplify. Previously, I had been torn between focusing our education toward college, or focusing toward "life." Now I knew what I wanted to do.

 

I pared back our subject load big time. I knew I wanted to concentrate on the 3R's, with plenty of good literature and discussion. We reinstated read-aloud time. I dropped all the time-consuming history projects and other "busywork." The next time I went to a HS conference, I brought home stacks of classics, rather than stacks of curriculum. 

 

Another change: writing across the curriculum-- gone! Here's why.

 

Our days are not necessarily easy, but they are peaceful. DS is making solid progress. Reading with him has given me a positive role in his day. I have had time to focus on the sweet stage of K and 1st grade with my second DS.

 

What changes did you make? What have you hung onto all this time? One of the complaints in the wake of the thread was how hard it was to translate all that inspiration into the nuts and bolts of a regular schoolday.

 

Do you have seasoned wisdom to share?

 

I'm also interested in materials that you've found that mesh with your goals of nurturing your students on truth, goodness, and beauty. . . or whatever new direction that discussion sent you. Be specific with curriculum choices you are liking. Since literature was a main theme in the discussion, please list favorite anthologies. Book lists are somewhat prevalent, but an anthology is so easy to grab and go!

 

Some current favorites of mine:

 

Caesar's English: a vocab program for reading while snuggling on the couch! Not to mention placing the words in context using classic literature. Not to mention the tie-ins with history and Spanish (which we also study.) I've had both my mom and DH read some lessons to DS and they enjoyed it as well as being impressed. :D

 

Daily Grammar Practice: Amazingly thorough while only taking 5 min a day, thus leaving more time for other things! The new revised versions also use sentences from quality literature.

 

Systematic Mathematics: Math taught by an experienced math teacher at a blackboard in the old way (before 60s reform math). Then a worksheet or two with plenty of white space. It is completely hands-off for me yet DS has been making amazing progress. I don't know if this particularly ties into the thread, but we discovered it at the same time and it meshed well with our 3R focus.

 

Teaching the Classics: Another discussion-based, snuggle-on-the-couch program. Also very simple and efficient.

 

Music: We dropped piano lessons and let DS choose something to study. He picked ukelele. :) Now our house sounds like Hawaii.

 

The Usborne Book of Famous Paintings: just a little bit of beauty in our curriculum! This goes into a clear cookbook holder on a desk.

 

Books:

The classics have been so great. When we got bookshelves put in last year, I made sure to put the classics at eye-level to encourage them. I didn't even need to. DS pulls them down much more often than all the historical fiction we had accumulated previously.

 

One gem we stumbled upon in a Goodwill were the original Hardy Boys books from the 20's, now published by Applewood Books. (I didn't know Hardy Boys went back that far!) The language in these is amazingly rich and complex. If you don't mind dealing with the fact that they are "unsanitized," they make fine read-alouds for boys. They look like this.

 

For the 1st grader:

 

My Book House,  Volumes 2 & 3

Beatrix Potter Treasury

What your 1st Grader Needs to Know

Children's Book of Virtues

An 8Fill rec: Winter Moon (going to get Spring next)

Just got Fifty Famous Stories Retold, and it looks great.

 

My 1st-grader and I also have learned how to knit this year, as well as play three notes on the recorder! Life is good.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by birchbark

[birchbark]

Here is the thread I'm referencing.

 

[SweetandSimple]

Wow! That sounds wonderful. I'm sorry that I don't have anything to add, but I wanted to tell you that your post just stopped me in my (harried, curriculum-planning) tracks. Thank you so much for sharing. I haven't read such a beautiful post in a long time.

[ElizabethB]

I already had the things in that thread as an overall goal.  And, I switched from MFW to TOG so that was also in there as a change, so how much is due to that thread and how much the change from MFW to TOG, I don't exactly know.

 

Anyway, whether it was from that thread or the layout of TOG where you can't do it all unlike MFW where they pick a doable amount for you, I am using more resources that I choose for many of the reasons in the CIRCE thread.  I only pick resources for history now that are super efficient or beautiful.  We cover the basics with efficient and then without guilt linger over beautiful.  When we got to something that mentioned Ravenna, I pulled out a book I picked up years before I had kids because it was under $1 and had beautiful pictures.  (This is the book, the pictures are much better than the cover, it is also a good history of Ravenna. )  With MFW and before the CIRCE thread, I would have felt compelled to use other things.  Between TOG and the thread, I have more flexibility and less guilt about choosing things that resonate with me.  The children enjoyed the book, they looked at it and discussed it longer than I thought they would.

 

I am also quicker to toss out read aloud books that are not working for one reason or another.  If the kids and I don't love it, we move on to another choice until we find one that we all enjoy.  Before, even if I picked it myself, not a curriculum assigned book, I often felt compelled to finish.  (Interestingly, both tossers so far were historical fiction, which 8 said in the thread that she got rid of as well.)

 

I have kept everything else basically the same, I already was working in that direction and had read many of the referenced books.

 

Oh, I also re-bought "Mathematics is God Silent," he has a website, too: http://www.biblicalchristianworldview.net/mathematics.html  I had read it before and passed it along to someone else, I decided I needed to own it again as I started to approach the level of math that was discussed in the book as the kids got older and started getting into advanced math topics.

 

I was planning on using them anyway, but my son is really enjoying the fables and stories in the old Open Court readers.  They are so much better than most drivel in basic readers, yet based on simple phonics. (I dislike both phonics readers and sight word readers for their poor stories and wording, although I also have additional problems with sight word readers because of the method.)

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I have continued to focus on great children's lit and have eschewed historical fiction.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I have continued to focus on great children's lit and have eschewed historical fiction.

 

I would love love LOVE to see a list of children's lit arranged more or less by age-appropriateness. 

 

Just because of my own lack of interest in history, I have limited our history to SOTW and a picture book or so for every other chapter.  The rest has been lit. 

 

I am trying to put together a book a month for next year (2nd) and it's killing me!  I so want to begin Narnia, but I keep thinking 3-4th grade is better because for me, those books were such a HUGE part of my childhood that I want them to be that for my children as well.  I'm afraid reading them early will ruin the impact because they might not be fully understood yet.  What do you think?  So I thought 2nd grade should culminate with The Wind In The Willows.  Now I need 11 more books...

 

This is what my children's lit list looks like thus far:

 

K-1st:  Emphasis on fairy tales and Aesop, plus Beatrix Potter and WInnie the Pooh.

 

1st-2nd: Emphasis on reality-based stories. Real children doing real things, such as Little House in the Big Woods (first 3-4 books), Railway Children, Treasure Seekers, Wheel on the School, Cheaper by the Dozen, Swallows and Amazons...  Plus Charlotte's Web and Trumpet of the Swan.  Dr. Doolittle

 

2nd-3rd: Pippi Longstocking, Alice in Wonderland (should I wait on this one?), Peter Pan, Mary Poppins, The Princess and the Goblin and other McDonald, and Wind in the Willows

 

3-4th:  NARNIA!!!  as well as some lighter ones- By The Great Horn Spoon, Phantom Tollbooth...

 

I have such a hard time judging though.  HOW do I ensure that some day, my children say, "Yeah, Harry Potter was a fun read, but it's no NARNIA!"

[TracyP]

I would love love LOVE to see a list of children's lit arranged more or less by age-appropriateness. 

 

 

I'm assuming you have seen 1000 Good Books and are looking for something more specific. I'll link it just in case it helps.

[TracyP]

I think about the Circe thread often, but I can't pinpoint any huge changes. I found the thread to be motivation to keep doing what I have been doing. I have Kern's "why are you doing this" post printed out and I refer to it occasionally. It keeps me grounded and reminds me what is important to my family. In fact, as I am in the midst of next year's planning and feeling very overwhelmed, I should probably pull it out again.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm assuming you have seen 1000 Good Books and are looking for something more specific. I'll link it just in case it helps.

 

Thank you!  I knew this list existed, but had not realized it was broken down by age!  Thanks!

 

 

ETA:  Ok, I have looked at this list before.  Here's what I am looking for, more specifically:

 

A sort of "top ten list" of read alouds for each age level, plus a top ten independent reads for each grade level.  Obviously this list would be subjective to the list-maker, but I'm sure there's going to be major overlap in lists as well. 

[texasmama]

I have continued to focus on great children's lit and have eschewed historical fiction.

I read the thread long after it closed, but this was one of my major take-aways. 

 

Some changes occurred at once (gobs of classic literature).  Some have occurred slowly (letting go of much of the historical fiction).

 

I heart Andrew Kern.  His talks are food for the soul.

[ladydusk]

 

I heart Andrew Kern. His talks are food for the soul.

The videos up at CiRCE right now are wonderful! I've listened to the first three and will listen to 4 today.

 

I've followed CiRCE stuff for years, so the 2012 thread wasn't all new to me, but it helped me to relax and breathe a little bit.

[ladydusk]

 

K-1st: Emphasis on fairy tales and Aesop, plus Beatrix Potter and WInnie the Pooh.

 

1st-2nd: Emphasis on reality-based stories. Real children doing real things, such as Little House in the Big Woods (first 3-4 books), Railway Children, Treasure Seekers, Wheel on the School, Cheaper by the Dozen, Swallows and Amazons... Plus Charlotte's Web and Trumpet of the Swan. Dr. Doolittle

 

2nd-3rd: Pippi Longstocking, Alice in Wonderland (should I wait on this one?), Peter Pan, Mary Poppins, The Princess and the Goblin and other McDonald, and Wind in the Willows

 

3-4th: NARNIA!!! as well as some lighter ones- By The Great Horn Spoon, Phantom Tollbooth...

 

I have such a hard time judging though. HOW do I ensure that some day, my children say, "Yeah, Harry Potter was a fun read, but it's no NARNIA!"

I don't know that you have to wait for Narnia. We listened to the audio books years ago and all of my kids are reading Narnia this year and loving it.

 

Momto2Cs here has a great breakdown of books and influences to Narnia on her blog (http://fromtherootsup.blogspot.com/search/label/Narnia). Your leading up to years have a lot of them!

 

Anyway, I find it helpful for my kids (who are quite close in age) to work together ... I just expect more or less depending on the child. For us it helps foster the family culture we're trying to develop.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I don't know that you have to wait for Narnia. We listened to the audio books years ago and all of my kids are reading Narnia this year and loving it.

 

Momto2Cs here has a great breakdown of books and influences to Narnia on her blog (http://fromtherootsup.blogspot.com/search/label/Narnia). Your leading up to years have a lot of them!

 

Anyway, I find it helpful for my kids (who are quite close in age) to work together ... I just expect more or less depending on the child. For us it helps foster the family culture we're trying to develop.

 

Thank you for the link!  Part of my hesitation is wanting both "big kids" to be able to listen to Narnia.  I know my 5yo isn't ready yet as she has a very short attention span, but I'm guessing she'd be ready by 2nd grade.  So I'd have a 4th, 2nd, and pre-k'r listening to Narnia read aloud.  Then I'd repeat it a couple years later, this time making DD my focus, so I'd have a (6th), 4th, and 1st listening to it.  And so on.  I think if I make my list of books well, they will all be books that the kids will still want to listen in on as they get older, even though it will officially be younger sibling's read-aloud.  Does that make sense?

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm going to start another thread, I don't want to hijack this one!

[lots of little ducklings]

I would love love LOVE to see a list of children's lit arranged more or less by age-appropriateness.

 

Just because of my own lack of interest in history, I have limited our history to SOTW and a picture book or so for every other chapter. The rest has been lit.

 

I am trying to put together a book a month for next year (2nd) and it's killing me! I so want to begin Narnia, but I keep thinking 3-4th grade is better because for me, those books were such a HUGE part of my childhood that I want them to be that for my children as well. I'm afraid reading them early will ruin the impact because they might not be fully understood yet. What do you think? So I thought 2nd grade should culminate with The Wind In The Willows. Now I need 11 more books...

 

This is what my children's lit list looks like thus far:

 

K-1st: Emphasis on fairy tales and Aesop, plus Beatrix Potter and WInnie the Pooh.

 

1st-2nd: Emphasis on reality-based stories. Real children doing real things, such as Little House in the Big Woods (first 3-4 books), Railway Children, Treasure Seekers, Wheel on the School, Cheaper by the Dozen, Swallows and Amazons... Plus Charlotte's Web and Trumpet of the Swan. Dr. Doolittle

 

2nd-3rd: Pippi Longstocking, Alice in Wonderland (should I wait on this one?), Peter Pan, Mary Poppins, The Princess and the Goblin and other McDonald, and Wind in the Willows

 

3-4th: NARNIA!!! as well as some lighter ones- By The Great Horn Spoon, Phantom Tollbooth...

 

I have such a hard time judging though. HOW do I ensure that some day, my children say, "Yeah, Harry Potter was a fun read, but it's no NARNIA!"

Oh, do Narnia now! :-). You could always drop it if it's a flop (it won't be) and the series can certainly be re-read at a later stage if you want dc to more fully appreciate the deeper layers of the text. I've read some of the series at least four times in my life... and loved each rereading. My DS 6, DD 5, and DD 3 adored Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe when we read it just before Christmas, and we just started Magician's Nephew with enthusiastic reception. DS is a deep-thinker by nature, and the theological discussions prompted by Lion, Witch, Wardrobe were brilliant. I would never have believed a six year-old could gain so much from a text, but he did. Hats off once again to CS Lewis.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ok, ok...  You have both convinced me.  I will read Narnia in the evenings with DS.  :-D  Let's just say *I* have been waiting for this moment forever.  It's something I thought about from the moment I knew I was pregnant for the first time- when will I get to read Narnia to my kids?  :party:

[lots of little ducklings]

Ok, ok... You have both convinced me. I will read Narnia in the evenings with DS. :-D Let's just say *I* have been waiting for this moment forever. It's something I thought about from the moment I knew I was pregnant for the first time- when will I get to read Narnia to my kids? :party:

Yay! And lol-- DH and I were so impatient that I read all 7 aloud to him (with "voices") three years before we even had our first. :-)

[Kfamily]

We're finally settled in our own home and that really feels great! The girls are back with their beloved original piano teacher (older daughter with her 6 years and younger daughter 4) and hope to get other activities up and running soon. Life is beginning to feel normal again and I feel so grateful for it.

 

We are really enjoying the books we are reading, the TC lectures we are watching and most of the other books we are using. I'm generally happy with the decisions we make with regard to what and how the girls are learning but I do plan to add more to our basic schedule. Some changes/additions involve writing, French and science. I'm still really frustrated with what I want to use for writing. I'm considering using an assortment of sources for my older daughter which includes A Rulebook for Arguments, The Elements of Style and the New Oxford Guide to Writing along with an assortment of exercise from vintage books. My younger daughter has been using the New Oxford Guide to Writing completely on her own. I just recently realized that she's made some progress in it. ( :)) I'm still working on my plan for her with regard to writing. I'm putting together a plan for increasing our French work. I will be adding dictation, reading from French works (Fables to start), our French tea time sessions, watching movies in French and other ways to enrich our lessons. I'm also working on some big changes with regard to how we handle science. I can share what we end up with when I'm finished. I do want to teach science in a more simultaneous and sometimes integrated way.

 

My younger daughter is currently reading Jane Eyre (almost done) and Bleak House (her choice...lol...and almost done with this one too) independently and I've been having her alternate a written narration each week with these readings. I've been really pleased with how much her writing in both fiction and non-fiction has developed. She also writes a weekly narration for history and science. We just recently finished Julius Caesar as a group (older daughter, myself and younger daughter). I'm so glad we took  the time to read a children's version of Plutarch on Brutus and excerpts of Plutarch's Caesar (from the Journeys Through Bookland) before we read the play. I think both girls were really comfortable with our reading of the play. We are currently reading Romeo and Juliet, which was inspired by the new movie.

 

My older daughter is independently reading The Birth of Britain (Churchill) and The Glorious Adventure (Halliburton) and she's just recently and very reluctantly read Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and the first two parts of Gulliver's Travels. (I've learned which battles to pick with my headstrong teenager!) She's currently about to begin a huge study of poetry. I have several books that I'm considering and we'll be reading from many poets such as Gray, Tennyson, Pope, Byron, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats and more.

 

 

In general, I try to plan for the girls with these basic ideas:

 

Do we love the book? (or in some cases, is it just one of those with which we should be familiar...thinking of Swift here... :))

Are we using our imagination and/or making connections with other books in our discussions and written work?

Are we using resources that truly cement major concepts and/or bring to light new perspectives?

Are we trying to bring out the book's connection or the concept's connection to big ideas such as truth, justice, beauty, etc.

Am I remembering to keep art and music in the center (rather than forgotten at the edge) of each day? (I'm still working on this one....)

Am I providing time to be outside, to live in nature, appreciate the natural world (and learn from it)? (I'm still working on this one too...)

 

I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

 

We have and use some anthologies. We really like Bulfinch's Mythology and it has good coverage too. We also have used World's Best Fairy Tales. It was put together by Reader's Digest but the selections are from Lang and his color series (primarily), Andersen, Grimm and other authors. 

 

I've recently discovered some nature books by Margaret Buck and they are so well done. Our Natural World  by Hal Borland is a great collection of natural history essays from many great authors such as Rachel Carson, Thoreau, Audubon, Muir, Teale, etc.

 

Sorry, this post is a bit scattered.

 

 

[KeriJ]

 

 

Caesar's English: a vocab program for reading while snuggling on the couch! Not to mention placing the words in context using classic literature. Not to mention the tie-ins with history and Spanish (which we also study.) I've had both my mom and DH read some lessons to DS and they enjoyed it as well as being impressed. :D

 

Daily Grammar Practice: Amazingly thorough while only taking 5 min a day, thus leaving more time for other things! The new revised versions also use sentences from quality literature.

 

 

Loved your post!  I have been pondering that big thread for a long time.  

 

Can you tell me more about Daily Grammar Practice?

 

I'd also like to discuss more about ditching historical fiction, and maybe discuss what classifies as historical fiction.

[Chrysalis Academy]

We still use historical fiction as history enrichment, but the biggest thing I've taken away and applied is that historical fiction is not literature (necessarily). Pulling those two things apart (literature and history) has been incredibly enriching and rewarding!

 

How that looks for us - my kids are voracious, avid readers, so I assign them historical fiction correlated to their history studies.  They like it - it helps the time period come alive, it keeps their interest, it helps them relate.  They read these books independently, and sometimes we discuss them, very occasionally they will write about the book in a simple way.

 

But our reading together time is focused on literature, and it doesn't have to correlate to history studies.  We use bedtime reading to read classic children's stories that are above their reading level - at least above the little one's.  We use lit time during the day to read classic books or foundational literature that they'll need to understand their world.  I classify reading the children's bible in that category - we don't read it religiously, but we read and discuss it as a critical literary/cultural foundational work.  We read poetry, and we're beginning to study it.  We're studying literary techniques using books and short stories and starting to write about literature in a slightly more sophisticated way.

 

I feel lucky that my kids are eager readers, so I don't feel like I have to choose either/or.  (that was something else I got from the circe thread! why not do both if you can?)  But if I did feel that I had to choose, I would pick literature and let the historical fiction go. 

 

Ironically, I also decided to drop Latin after that thread.  Because when I stepped back and took the airplane's eye view, I realized that it wasn't the best way to reach our goals.

 

[Clear Creek]

I took away several things from the thread:

 

- I lost the guilt over not assigning historical fiction to go along with the time period we were studying in history.  I found most historical fiction to be either boring, unrealistic, or just plain dreadful writing, so I refused to assign it...but that led to a lot of guilt since I am (somewhat) attempting to homeschool classically and that seems to be one of the requirements.  Now I just let my kids pick biographies or historical fiction for fun at the library, and I assign good literature for reading during school time.

 

-  I needed to find a way to follow the "less is more" maxim.  I read the Latin-Centered Curriculum, and it really resonated with me.  It helped me narrow down my focus to the essentials, which allows us to go deeper with the things that need more time or that we find fascinating.

 

- My kids don't have to write about everything they read, or do worksheets/study guides/outlines either.  They can (and do) learn quite well just from reading and discussing (discussing is important!).  There is a time and a place for writing, but it isn't required for every subject or every book.

 

- I searched out every article/video by Andrew Kern, and they have all helped change my attitude about homeschooling, changed my goals in homeschooling, and improved our lit discussions.

 

- Our science studies are guided by interest - I want to harness and encourage the wonder that my children have for the natural world.  For my oldest, that actually includes a textbook (which she loves :tongue_smilie: ), but only as a starting point...it is greatly fleshed out by books on the topics in each unit that interest her.  For my younger kids, it is reading books on whatever science topic interests them at the moment along with copious nature studies.

 

 

[KeriJ]

Another historical fiction question:  for instance, on the 1000 Good Books list, under "literature" are listed many books that I would have considered historical fiction.  What do you (anyone) consider criteria for classifying something as literature or historical fiction?

[birchbark]

Loved your post!  I have been pondering that big thread for a long time.  

 

Can you tell me more about Daily Grammar Practice?

 

I'd also like to discuss more about ditching historical fiction, and maybe discuss what classifies as historical fiction.

 

Here are a couple threads on DGP. Let me know if you have more questions.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361635-daily-grammar-practice-program/

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/405692-love-hate-relationship-with-kiss-grammar/?do=findComment&comment=4089655

 

We also did not ditch historical fiction completely. But I realized after the thread that the bulk of our reading (we were doing a lit-based program) was non-fiction, historical fiction, and biographies. Practically no classic literature. Although our books were high quality, we were missing out on the rich language and deep ideas of good literature. My DS is a voracious reader and still takes advantage of our other books, but I stick to real lit for read-aloud times and discussion. 

 

This post by 8Fill may help describe what literature is as opposed to historical fiction. Most of what you see in the packages of lit-based curricula is historical fiction. And there ARE occasions when a book can be both. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/363480-so-what-books-are-both-historical-fiction-and-great-literature/

[TKDmom]

:bigear:

 

I just ventured into the Circe thread a few weeks ago. I'm still thinking about changes to make. I definitely need "multum non multa", but I'm still not sure how to get there. Literature is getting a higher priority (and maybe Latin, too). But what to cut out...  I need to go back and work on reading through it some more.

[justamouse]

 

 

In general, I try to plan for the girls with these basic ideas:

 

Do we love the book? (or in some cases, is just one of those with which we should be familiar...thinking of Swift here... :))

Are we using our imagination and/or making connections with other books in our discussions and written work?

Are we using resources that truly cement major concepts and/or bring to light new perspectives?

Are we trying to bring out the book's connection or the concept's connection to big ideas such as truth, justice, beauty, etc.

Am I remembering to keep art and music in the center (rather than forgotten at the edge) of each day? (I'm still working on this one....)

Am I providing time to be outside, to live in nature, appreciate the natural world (and learn from it)? (I'm still working on this one too...)

 

 

I Love this list!

 

I dropped all historical fiction back then, and though I was scared of doing so at first, now I'm deeply happy I went with my instincts. I then really went crazy and gave away all of my historical fiction books. That freed up *shelves* for better literature. 

 

We don't do 'grammar' and we don't do history the way we used to. (Classical-we need to stop using this word, because I don't think some of these ideas are not not classical. It's like when people question if CM was classical) I dropped logic and rhetoric. Nor do we do science like we used to. IE: I do a lot of gardening, as do the kids, so for this summer I kind of built us a botany course. I really have refused to do anything in abstract with them. One thing I totally agree with CM on is that education is the science of relations. So basically, if it doesn't fit into that definition, I don't use it. 

 

Something that I read recently really helped define the change.  In Stratford Caldecott's Beauty in the Word, he wrote of the trivium being remembering, thinking, and communicating. That really helped me clarify what I did with our homeschool, and how I want to proceed. 

 

The biggest change from that thread has been me. I really let go of the 'should'. 

 

A bonus of that is that we have a LOT more music in our house. Banjo, guitar, ukulele, chorale, jazz band, concert band, plays- We read a lot, we sing a lot, we talk a lot. We do some math every day, and we write every day. 

 

ie: Ds14 had read Faustus, Pilgrim's Progress,  the Tempest, and then we read St. James and talked about how the virtues of St James applied to all of those books. Even Edmund and the WHite Witch made it in there because the 3 smaller (12, 12, 11) came in and joined in on the discussion. This week's writing assignment is on St. James and he has to pick two characters and apply the virtues and show how the characters might have changed or how the virtue within the character was a good example of the virtue expressed. 

 

It takes TIME. I takes me much more time to be there and to discuss, but that's what's helped solidify the whole thing. 

 

ETA: I don't think I would normally be so direct on teaching certain virtues except for the fact that St. James is pretty focused on them. I think otherwise the writing assignment might have looked very different. 

[justamouse]

Another thing I dropped was workbooky, write a paragraph analyzation. I realized it was deconstruction. We talk about things in their whole. That's why I dropped grammar, also, it's just deconstruction. Now, I DO use PLL and ILL, but it's very about whole language. 

So after Ds 14 read those books, we would have an hour long/ 2 hour discussion about the characters, who did what, compare decisions, GMC, but not in a re-interpretive way. See Flannery O'Conner's letter as an example of where I don't go with the discussions.

[SarahW]

Another historical fiction question:  for instance, on the 1000 Good Books list, under "literature" are listed many books that I would have considered historical fiction.  What do you (anyone) consider criteria for classifying something as literature or historical fiction?

 

I'm not really sure how the idea got started that classical education should include historical fiction, I can't think of any of the neo-Classical authors who had that as one of their tenants. It seems to me like it is something that seeped over from CM, and I'm not sure if it is actually strictly CM either.

 

I think the 1000 good books list suffers from this confusion. I don't take it as authoritative in any way.

 

But the question is a good one. Ivanhoe, for example, is considered literature. But unless one wants to consider the intricacies of 19th century Scottish politics, it is pretty much historically worthless. Heart of Darkness, on the other hand, is literature (but maybe not one of the greats) and could be well read during a study of European Colonialism.

 

Whether one wants to read literature or study a time period, determines whether you read Ivanhoe or Heart of Darkness, respectively.

 

So I think there can be a convergence, but it requires a great deal more subtlety than that which I usually see applied to it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So after Ds 14 read those books, we would have an hour long/ 2 hour discussion about the characters, who did what, compare decisions, GMC, but not in a re-interpretive way. See Flannery O'Conner's letter as an example of where I don't go with the discussions.

 

Oh, that is all kinds of wonderful. WOW! Thanks for posting that. The last paragraph of O'Connor's letter was spectacular. 

[Soror]

I felt really affected at the time and tried to focus on literature, teaching from a state of rest and beauty. I'm not sure I always hit those goals and certainly not perfectly. Right now however I don't know where we fit in the classical world but I'm just trying to find what works the best for my kids.

 

This year we've ended up doing a lot of interest based history and science, books, movies and discussions. We worked the basics with programs that worked for my kids. We are using programs for writing and grammar, no it isn't integrated into the rest of our work. Perhaps that is "ideal" but we are both absolutely loving MCT and Writing and Rhetoric. We do these together, mostly on the couch, with lots of discussion and fun, so I consider that a win. Ds has also continued to read a ton of books.

 

I did/do feel a bit lost on History. It seems there is either textbook history or historically fiction based history and then ? I tried to organize my own study mostly based on good books but I don't know how well it went. I picked a lot of books that just didn't work and then not enough. My thought for next year is American History w/ a Story of Us. I've bought one of the condensed books to preview and both ds and I liked it. Supplementing with good books that fit along with any non-fiction I can find that I think will interest him. 

 

Anyway, I don't know what is ideal for history at this age for the "classical" student but I'm just trying to figure out what will keep our interest without crowding out our other work and leave plenty of time for play and exploration.

 

 

[texasmama]

Oh, that is all kinds of wonderful. WOW! Thanks for posting that. The last paragraph of O'Connor's letter was spectacular. 

I agree.  And reading it frees me up with the lit analysis class that I teach for co op.  I have been loosey goosey this year as it is (discussion, no right or wrong answers, etc), but I think now I feel justified about the whole "no one right answer" approach I have taken.

[justamouse]

I agree.  And reading it frees me up with the lit analysis class that I teach for co op.  I have been loosey goosey this year as it is (discussion, no right or wrong answers, etc), but I think now I feel justified about the whole "no one right answer" approach I have taken.

There was a Classical Academic Press vid that they put up recently with 5th graders (I think?) talking about LoTR like they were high school students-absolutley incredible to watch. Here's the link. it should go right through. It's called The Liturgical Classroom and Virtue Formation. 

 

 

[texasmama]

Thanks! Can't watch on my phone but will when I get to my laptop.

[ElizaG]

I did/do feel a bit lost on History. It seems there is either textbook history or historically fiction based history and then ?

 

There are also narrative histories written for children, though many of them are out of print.  Some of my favorites are Donalda Dickie's for Canada, Noel Streatfeild's for England, and Hillyer's for world history.   (Mandatory disclaimer:  this doesn't mean that I necessarily agreed with every single thing they said.  I can recall doing some editing or clarifying in places.)   We also have A History for Peter, but I haven't read most of it as we ended up using a textbook for US history.

 

Another option would be to read junior biographies -- again, mostly out of print.  There were many series published in the mid-20th century; Landmark was the best known.  They tend to have dialogue and some other fictional elements, but they aren't really what I'd consider historical fiction.  The quality of the writing does vary a lot, though.

 

A third option is to keep some reference books on hand, and just teach history as it comes up in the context of reading.   This is the most traditional method, and I think it would work well for families who read diverse forms of literature -- poems, speeches, essays, excerpts from travel writings, etc. -- rather than spending most of their time on long novels.   Upper-level school readers from the 19th century tend to be based around this sort of material. 

 

For now, I'm undecided, so we've been going back and forth between all of the above.  :001_smile:   It's less organized than I'd like, but it's still working out better than the "literature-based" curriculum were were using (Trail Guide to Learning).  I was going bonkers with many of their book choices. 

[Mrs. A]

One of my biggest takeaways was to allow time to let things soak in and not be anxious to rush on to the next thing. As a result we've spent the past year and a half or so reading and rereading LoTR and Narnia (I think we've been through Narnia about 5 times, LoTR twice along with The Silmarillion a couple times too). We are only just now gradually behind to move into other books. This has led to amazing discussions and discoveries and hours and hours of drawing, playing, poetry memorization, etc.  We also take our time with the basic subjects. The goal is no longer to finish in a certain time frame, but rather to diligently move forward day by day, making sure that each child is doing what s/he is able to do right now. I've really come to value CM's motto that "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life." 

 

Another effect the thread has had for me is in the way I spend our school money. Instead of buying curriculum I look to build our library and fill it with good literature. We have SWR for reading/writing/spelling and Ray's Arithmetic for math and since those are both so solid I've just been doing my best to make sure that the books we have are books that we will be keeping permanently - books that I will be able to pass on to my grandchildren when the time comes, rather than books that will eventually be resold because they've outlived their usefulness. 

 

I think though, that the biggest result of going down this path is that my own love of learning had been reignited. The rabbit trails that I've followed because of that initial discussion have led me to Euclid, Milton, Plato and others as well as to the study of Latin and Greek simply for my own pleasure. 

 

 

[LostintheCosmos]

I did/do feel a bit lost on History. It seems there is either textbook history or historically fiction based history and then ?

"Primary sources"! My plan is to focus on narrative histories in the early years, and then gradually emphasize historical texts more and more over time.

[Alte Veste Academy]

There was a Classical Academic Press vid that they put up recently with 5th graders (I think?) talking about LoTR like they were high school students-absolutley incredible to watch. Here's the link. it should go right through. It's called The Liturgical Classroom and Virtue Formation. 

 

 

I clicked for the 5th graders; I stayed for the inspiration. That was the best possible use for an hour of my time, such a blessing to me today. Thank you so much for posting this video.

[Soror]

Ack- the forum ate my long post!

 

Thanks Justamouse for the vid. I'm interested to watch that when I get a bit. I had just been wondering about that sort of thing. So far we have just enjoyed books with little bits of discussion here and there but I'd been wondering if we were coming to a point that I should bring it up a bit.

 

ElizaG and LostCove-

Thanks for your thoughts on history. I'm very interested in source documents, although ds is not ready for the resources I've seen, it seems we have a few years to go here. We've done some work with narratives and that is why I am leaning towards Story of Us as it has a narrative feel to it. I've not been found of the vintage resources of Am. History I've previewed, way too much editing to make them palpable for me. So, I was thinking of using Story of Us with good books and non-fiction thrown in there. He tends to prefer the modern books for non-fic especially. Perhaps that will kick us out of the classical club but he loves things like "You Wouldn't Want to Be" series, so our selection will be an interesting mish-mash. I'll be doing plenty of good picture books as well. I want to fold dd in more next year and ds still quite enjoys picture books as well.

 

PP mentioned earlier about the bulk of their budget being books, that has been the case here. I've also been more at peace with taking our own path at our own pace. We are using multiple resources for many subjects unlike many here (perhaps that gets me kicked out of the club as well?). I have more confidence as a teacher now and find it easier to use multiple curriculums. I use them as resources quite often, rather than infallible guides. I'm generally using one as our primary in math for example dd is using MiF and ds BA but then I pull in from other places as it is needed to work on certain concepts, the same with writing with ds. Writing and Rhetoric is his primary program but we are pulling bits and pieces from here and there. I'm the teacher and I make goals and look for the tools to accomplish them.

[Clear Creek]

 

I did/do feel a bit lost on History. It seems there is either textbook history or historically fiction based history and then ? I tried to organize my own study mostly based on good books but I don't know how well it went. I picked a lot of books that just didn't work and then not enough. My thought for next year is American History w/ a Story of Us. I've bought one of the condensed books to preview and both ds and I liked it. Supplementing with good books that fit along with any non-fiction I can find that I think will interest him. 

 

Anyway, I don't know what is ideal for history at this age for the "classical" student but I'm just trying to figure out what will keep our interest without crowding out our other work and leave plenty of time for play and exploration.

 

I have found SOTW/Famous Men series/Dorothy Mills' books to be a good middle ground between textbooks and historical fiction...they read more like a narrative than a textbook, but they contain more fact than historical fiction.  Best of all, they are very thorough and don't take a lot of time :001_smile:

[ElizaG]

Just wanted to add a link to a description of the Noel Streatfeild book, as I don't think it's very well known.  It isn't quite like the others I mentioned.  It's a social history of England that's presented through a time travel plot, with a mysterious old professor-type person to interpret and explain what's going on.  So it's sort of history and historical fiction at the same time, if that makes sense.  (Probably not!  I find a lot of these books hard to categorize. :001_smile:)

[scrapbabe]

Gleaning so much from this and the Circe thread. Thank you!

[TKDmom]

I dropped all historical fiction back then, and though I was scared of doing so at first, now I'm deeply happy I went with my instincts. I then really went crazy and gave away all of my historical fiction books. That freed up *shelves* for better literature.

 

We don't do 'grammar' and we don't do history the way we used to. (Classical-we need to stop using this word, because I don't think some of these ideas are not not classical. It's like when people question if CM was classical) I dropped logic and rhetoric. Nor do we do science like we used to. IE: I do a lot of gardening, as do the kids, so for this summer I kind of built us a botany course. I really have refused to do anything in abstract with them. One thing I totally agree with CM on is that education is the science of relations. So basically, if it doesn't fit into that definition, I don't use it.

I feel like this is where I am. I want to clear the shelves of historical fiction, because I am out of shelf space and can't find room for anymore bookshelves. I bought a total of 4 SL cores when the kids were younger. Some of the books are boxed up, and I keep peeking in to see what I could sell or give away. But then I think, "Oh, I love this book!" Or maybe, "This book looks like it would be so good, and maybe we will get around to it someday." This is particularly hard with all the American history books, because there are so many of them, and some of them really do feel like classic lit to me. And I still have 2 kids that have never studied US history. But I could always get them from the library....

 

As far as logic and rhetoric, I am still on the "should" bandwagon. I would like to start logic with dd12 this summer. I think I just want her to have a better education than I did and have the ability to think through arguments clearly, kwim? But I get the old anxiety/frenzied feeling every time I look at logic curricula and think about how to add it to her day. She is a big daydreamer, and it's a struggle just to get her through the assignments she already has on a daily basis.

[justamouse]

I clicked for the 5th graders; I stayed for the inspiration. That was the best possible use for an hour of my time, such a blessing to me today. Thank you so much for posting this video.

 

Yeah, she really thought about the actual process of teaching and questioned her methods. It really was a great vid. 

[birchbark]

I'm interested in what you all would recommend for readers. My K'er has finished the Flyleaf Press books we own an checks out the easy readers from the library. I wouldn't describe those as beautiful or virtuous. What would be appropriate assigned reading that evokes, beauty, truth, virtue, etc? Beatrix Potter? Anything else?

 

ChrissySC recommended the Elson Readers in another thread. They might fit the bill.

[justamouse]

I'm interested in what you all would recommend for readers. My K'er has finished the Flyleaf Press books we own an checks out the easy readers from the library. I wouldn't describe those as beautiful or virtuous. What would be appropriate assigned reading that evokes, beauty, truth, virtue, etc? Beatrix Potter? Anything else?

I've been running around the past few days and my head is spinning right now, but let me think on this for you. 

 

Beatrix is hard for a little one to read. Little House, Sarah Plain and Tall, they used McGuffy readers, The Princess and the Goblin. 

 

I can think of a lot of books a child should have READ to them at those ages, but not so many that they can read on their own. 

[lewelma]

Soror, AVA has started a thread about readable nonfiction. A lot of us have posted quite a few really well written non-fiction books about the 20th century that are neither textbooks or historical fiction. Go take a look.

 

Ruth in NZ

[prairiegirl]

The Circe thread did many things for me.  First and foremost, it peeled back a little more of that classical education onion.  I had been following Circe for many years before the thread but there were some things that eluded me.  The thread shed some light on those things that were shadowed for me.   That thread also gave me permission to ditch historical fiction.  It also gave me focus on those things that were 'true, good and beautiful.'

 

That thread also became a gateway for me into  a deeper understanding of classical and what I wanted for my children's  education.  From that thread I delved into 'Desiring the Kingdom' (I know many people do not like that book but it was a huge 'ah-ha' moment for me, so I have a soft spot for that book)  and Jenny Rallens'  talks.  It has been a soul-filling journey and it all started with that thread.

[scrapbabe]

Soror, AVA has started a thread about readable nonfiction. A lot of us have posted quite a few really well written non-fiction books about the 20th century that are neither textbooks or historical fiction. Go take a look.

 

Ruth in NZ

Can you link it?

[Alte Veste Academy]

Can you link it?

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/509501-in-search-of-non-fiction-that-reads-like-fiction-for-year-4-of-history-modern-times/

 

It is specific to SOTW4ish/modern times, but lots of good stuff there. 

[lewelma]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/509501-in-search-of-non-fiction-that-reads-like-fiction-for-year-4-of-history-modern-times/

 

It is specific to SOTW4ish/modern times, but lots of good stuff there.

I am using the books I listed for my 8th grader also. We are increasing the level using classic fiction from the era. So currently Metamorphosis and Great Gatsby.

[stripe]

 We also have A History for Peter, but I haven't read most of it as we ended up using a textbook for US history.

I bought 2 of the Peter volumes, but some parts of it really bug me. And sometimes I find the narrative approach to be disturbing, but I can't quite put my finger on why -- but I felt Ray Raphael's Founding Myths was the closest thing I'd read that articulated my discomfort...the idea that there is a tidy little narrative that wraps things up, which overlooks the fact that by its very nature a narrative is written after the fact, and the act of creating a story about something is in itself usually a misrepresentation of the complexity of most events. 

 

My biggest "take away" from the Circe thread was also probably about ditching historical fiction, but to be honest, it's a thread that I feel I still need to reread, or that I missed a lot of.