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CAP Writing and Rhetoric vs. Classical Composition??


Mama2two
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We are using CAP Writing and Rhetoric for third grade this year after finishing WWE3. 

 

My original plan was to use Classical Composition for 4th grade as recommended by Kolbe and Memoria Press.

 

However, we are really enjoying CAP.  So, now I am not sure which to use next year.

 

I was wondering if anyone could compare the two or make a recommendation of one over another?

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I haven't used either but in considering them I noted that CAP actually completes the progym before high school/rhetoric whereas CC appears to take until the end of high school to complete (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I've been curious about this (with Classical Writing as well which also takes through high school to complete) because I thought the idea of the progym was that they were exercises to be done *before* rhetoric. You reminded me that I need to hunt down more info on this, but that is the factor that initially makes me personally favor CAP over the others.

 

(I don't know but I may be confusing rhetoric as a stage of the trivium and rhetoric as a skill. Anyway ... just airing my own confusion while subbing to the thread for more information about these two programs.)

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I don't have experience with either yet, but after looking at the samples I decided on Writing and Rhetoric for my oldest dd.  She'll be using it next year.  Based on the sample, it looks like just the style of lesson that works well for dd and I.  Classical Composition looked boring.  Hopefully someone with experience will answer.

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We are enjoying WR here as well. If it is working well and you are enjoying it I'm not sure why you would switch. CAP has a good reputation, afaik for making solid programs, so I personally feel good as to where they are taking us, of course it isn't recommended though as it is brand new.  

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I haven't used either but in considering them I noted that CAP actually completes the progym before high school/rhetoric whereas CC appears to take until the end of high school to complete (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I've been curious about this (with Classical Writing as well which also takes through high school to complete) because I thought the idea of the progym was that they were exercises to be done *before* rhetoric. You reminded me that I need to hunt down more info on this, but that is the factor that initially makes me personally favor CAP over the others.

 

(I don't know but I may be confusing rhetoric as a stage of the trivium and rhetoric as a skill. Anyway ... just airing my own confusion while subbing to the thread for more information about these two programs.)

 

What's funny is the original Classical Compositions finished in 9th grade I think - I wonder why MP drags it out?

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Classical Composition—how shall I describe thee? Well, being as I've never used the series and CAP has only released their first two books thus far, perhaps this isn't an entirely fair comparison but, after glancing through MP's samples, I'll share my opinion.

 

First of all, MP's Intro to Composition seems similar to Writing With Ease, but it offers less guidance for both the teacher and the student. ItC appears to be more of just going through the motions than actually learning through discussion—schole', so that would have been a deal breaker for my little man. However, I believe the skills—narration, dictation, and summarization—being taught within either program need to be greatly nurtured, if not mastered, before moving on. Personally, I'd recommend WWE 1-3 (if not 4) over (the one level of) ItC. 

 

From what I can tell at this point, Classical Composition (Fable and Narrative) seems similar to W&R (Fable and Narrative I) with a mix of some WWS—outlining and such, but it indeed also seems very dull—taking the adventure and joy out of writing (like the writing portion of Rod and Staff English), whereas W&R is lively, engaging, and inspiring in comparison. Again, more of just going through the motions, but covering too many components too soon for the age/grades that are suggested, with far less engaging guidance than what CAP (and possibly WWS) offers. (That said, and on a side note, I'd pick CC over IEW any day.) 

 

Being that we've already completed Books 1–Fable and 2–Narrative of W&R and are eager to continue the W&R series, it'll be interesting to see Books 3 and 4 when they're released and compare them to the rest of the CC series even though W&R gets my vote.

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We are doing Narrative from CAP and it is amazing. I can almost see a change in my son's writing from lesson to lesson. I love the inference questions throughout the material - not something common in books for the younger set. I also like that you can do as little, or as much as you want, without loosing flow. 

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We are halfway through CC Fable. I have not used CAP, but reviewed the samples. CAP certainly looks more engaging, but CC seems to give more guidance on the rewrites. CAP gives very general instructions on rewriting a fable, where CC give specific instructions on what sort of detail to add by using certain 'Figures of Description' - i.e. Add a description of the stars or of a tree. Also, CC jumps right in from lesson 1, where CAP seems to ramp up more slowly. Every lesson in CC has the same steps, where in CAP, the steps seem to be introduced more gradually.

 

CC Steps

1) read the fable and identify recognition, reversal and suffering

2) variations of 2 sentences from the fable by using synonyms of specific words, and changing word order

3) outline the fable

4) narrate the fable

5) rewrite the fable by adding details using 3 specific figures of description

6) rewrite the fable by reducing or inverting

7) variations of 2 more sentences

8) final draft using rewrite 1 or 2

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We are halfway through CC Fable. I have not used CAP, but reviewed the samples. CAP certainly looks more engaging, but CC seems to give more guidance on the rewrites. CAP gives very general instructions on rewriting a fable, where CC give specific instructions on what sort of detail to add by using certain 'Figures of Description' - i.e. Add a description of the stars or of a tree. Also, CC jumps right in from lesson 1, where CAP seems to ramp up more slowly. Every lesson in CC has the same steps, where in CAP, the steps seem to be introduced more gradually.

 

CC Steps

1) read the fable and identify recognition, reversal and suffering

2) variations of 2 sentences from the fable by using synonyms of specific words, and changing word order

3) outline the fable

4) narrate the fable

5) rewrite the fable by adding details using 3 specific figures of description

6) rewrite the fable by reducing or inverting

7) variations of 2 more sentences

8) final draft using rewrite 1 or 2

 

How many days a week/minutes a day would you say this takes? Do you think it might be feasible to use CC in the CAP time span within the CAP age group? I know you're only on Fable, so that's possibly a ridiculous question to ask you. Thank you for the awesome information. It's very helpful.

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What's funny is the original Classical Compositions finished in 9th grade I think - I wonder why MP drags it out?

 

 

I'm curious, too.  :confused1: I thought I remembered that being the case but figured I was mistaken. Since you mentioned it I checked the CC website and you're right, in the FAQ they are paced to be finished in 9th.

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We are enjoying WR here as well. If it is working well and you are enjoying it I'm not sure why you would switch. CAP has a good reputation, afaik for making solid programs, so I personally feel good as to where they are taking us, of course it isn't recommended though as it is brand new.  

 

We use a combination of MP and Kolbe now and plan to use Kolbe for high school.  So, I am intrigued they both pick this curriculum- especially since I really trust their choices.

 

We are really enjoying CAP, so hence being torn on the chocies..

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We are halfway through CC Fable. I have not used CAP, but reviewed the samples. CAP certainly looks more engaging, but CC seems to give more guidance on the rewrites. CAP gives very general instructions on rewriting a fable, where CC give specific instructions on what sort of detail to add by using certain 'Figures of Description' - i.e. Add a description of the stars or of a tree. Also, CC jumps right in from lesson 1, where CAP seems to ramp up more slowly. Every lesson in CC has the same steps, where in CAP, the steps seem to be introduced more gradually.

 

CC Steps

1) read the fable and identify recognition, reversal and suffering

2) variations of 2 sentences from the fable by using synonyms of specific words, and changing word order

3) outline the fable

4) narrate the fable

5) rewrite the fable by adding details using 3 specific figures of description

6) rewrite the fable by reducing or inverting

7) variations of 2 more sentences

8) final draft using rewrite 1 or 2

 

Thank you, this is very helpful!

 

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Classical Composition—how shall I describe thee? Well, being as I've never used the series and CAP has only released their first two books thus far, perhaps this isn't an entirely fair comparison but, after glancing through MP's samples, I'll share my opinion.

 

First of all, MP's Intro to Composition seems similar to Writing With Ease, but it offers less guidance for both the teacher and the student. ItC appears to be more of just going through the motions than actually learning through discussion—schole', so that would have been a deal breaker for my little man. However, I believe the skills—narration, dictation, and summarization—being taught within either program need to be greatly nurtured, if not mastered, before moving on. Personally, I'd recommend WWE 1-3 (if not 4) over (the one level of) ItC. 

 

From what I can tell at this point, Classical Composition (Fable and Narrative) seems similar to W&R (Fable and Narrative I) with a mix of some WWS—outlining and such, but it indeed also seems very dull—taking the adventure and joy out of writing (like the writing portion of Rod and Staff English), whereas W&R is lively, engaging, and inspiring in comparison. Again, more of just going through the motions, but covering too many components too fast for the age/grades that are suggested, with far less engaging guidance than what CAP offers. (That said, and on a side note, I'd pick CC over IEW any day.) 

 

Being that we've already completed Books 1–Fable and 2–Narrative of W&R and are eager to continue the W&R series, it'll be interesting to see Books 3 and 4 when they're released and compare them to the rest of the CC series even though W&R gets my vote.

 

That is helpful!  I agree that CAP seems much more engaging.  But actually thought CC might go over things more slowly and in more detail given that goes through the series slower?

 

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How many days a week/minutes a day would you say this takes? Do you think it might be feasible to use CC in the CAP time span within the CAP age group? I know you're only on Fable, so that's possibly a ridiculous question to ask you. Thank you for the awesome information. It's very helpful.

 

I have no idea how long CAP takes as I only looked at the samples, but I think it depends on the age of your child. My dd is in 4th and most days we spend approximately 20 minutes. MP press recommends 1 step per day over 2 weeks (4 day weeks) and in the online course, I believe they only cover the first 16 fables. For the older grades they complete multiple steps in a day so they can complete multiple levels in a year. Some of the steps can be easily combined if you have more time. The only day that seems a bit long to me is when we complete step 5.

 

CC Steps

1) read the fable and identify recognition, reversal and suffering (10-15 min together)

2) variations of 2 sentences from the fable by using synonyms of specific words, and changing word order (I spend 10 minutes helping her select synonyms and then she spends another 10 rewriting the sentences)

3) outline the fable (15 minutes - we do this together, but as she gets more comfortable, I am allowing her to do more - hopefully by the end of the year she will be fairly independent here)

4) narrate the fable (I think they recommend writing the narration, but I have her narrate orally immediately after we outline, so this only take a couple of minutes)

5) rewrite the fable by adding details using 3 specific figures of description (The figures if description take us about 20 minutes and then she takes another 15-20 minutes to write the draft)

6) rewrite the fable by reducing or inverting (15-20 minutes)

7) variations of 2 more sentences (I spend 10 minutes helping her select synonyms and then she spends another 10 rewriting the sentences)

8) final draft using rewrite 1 or 2 (20 minutes)

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That is helpful!  I agree that CAP seems much more engaging.  But actually thought CC might go over things more slowly and in more detail given that goes through the series slower?
 

 

I actually meant and should've said "too soon" instead of "too fast", so I went ahead and just edited my original post for clarification.

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