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Elementary Greek or Athenaze?


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I'm trying to decide between the two programs for next year - this would be for my older two boys. They will have completed the Greek Alphabetarion/Hupogrammon, as well as Visual Latin 1-20 plus drill from Henle.

 

Option A -- more independent

Elementary Greek (I like that they will memorize Bible verses)

Athenaze

 

Option B -- less expensive

Athenaze (taking a slower pace)

 

Option C

?? something I haven't considered. Enlighten me!

 

I don't want to push my eldest, language is not his strength. My second son is good with language and memorizes easily, but tends to dawdle if given a task he thinks is too large. So slow & steady is fine with us.

 

Right now I'm leaning towards the more independent, bite-sized, laid-out option A (the next few years are going to be very time-crunched). But the frugal we-want-to-read-Greek side of me is protesting.

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How's that going for you? I wanted to continuously do Latin along side one other language at a time. I've been told that's crazy, but I think kids are amazing like that.

We started young and are making slow and steady progress.  None of the languages we are learning are similar so we don't have any problems mixing them up.  

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I used Athenaze in my college course, and we did not do 1 book/year. Maybe we just went slow. Maybe with a Latin background it would go faster (I don't think anyone in my class had done a declined language before). Maybe the book just moves slowly - which is entirely possible. You shouldn't plan to do more than one portion (alpha or beta) a week. If you can combine a few that's great, but don't expect it.

 

Is this the Elementary Greek series you're considering? One possibility is to do the first few books of that series, and then drop into Athenaze around lesson 10 or so. With a background in Latin I worry that the Elementary Greek series may be a bit too elementary, but it could be a nice and easy introduction for younger students to work through for a bit, and then solidify their knowledge with Athenaze. Or, as an alternative to Athenaze, Reading Greek.

 

But I must fess up that I am prejudiced against Koine-only programs. I haven't met one that did more than make dancing bears, so to speak. Which doesn't make them wrong so much as incomplete. You don't have to go on to do an Attic program necessarily, a Septuagint or Byzantine course is also fine (or even Homeric). There just needs to be more more there, imo.

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Athenaze is a tough text.  It is used in many college introductory Greek classes.  Personally, I don't find it well organized.  If you don't know ancient Greek, I think you'd be hard pressed to teach with it at any speed.  2 years/book would be tough going with lots of frustration for the average 12 year old.  Jumping from the Greek Alphabetarion to Athenaze is like reading Dr. Seuss one day, and David Foster Wallace the next.  However, there's not a lot of choice in Ancient Greek textbooks, especially Attic for younger learners.  If you have your heart set on Ancient Greek, and can afford it, I'd recommend one of the online classes like Lukeion.

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How's that going for you? I wanted to continuously do Latin along side one other language at a time. I've been told that's crazy, but I think kids are amazing like that.

Kids are amazing like that. My 5th grader is doing Spanish and Latin, my 4th grader is doing Latin and, including my second grader we are all learning Greek. So, that's three languages for my oldest at the same time. Granted, our Greek is "Greek Alphabet Codecrackers" by CAP, so it is a very very gentle introduction, still, they are all doing quite well. I would say we have a good handle on the most common of the Greek letters and are working on the idea of Greek phonics vs. English phonics. I never would have believed it had I not been a homeschooler, but young children can pick up on languages, and multiple languages at that very well. I taught for 2 years at a school in São Paulo, Brazil, (American missionary school, but we had a great deal of Brazilians of all ethnic backgrounds) and almost all the kids were bilingual. Some were tri-lingual and I had one girl who spoke English, Portuguese, and 2 dialects of Chinese.

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My oldest did Code Cracker and is now doing using Elementary.  We like how it's broken down into small lessons and has the workbook.  We also use the audio cd and it's very helpful.  While I do find parts of it to be challenging, that's because my 9 year old hasn't reached certain terminology in her english language program. 

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Thank you for your feedback - I don't really care how long it takes to get through Athenaze, so I edited my original post. I'm just wondering if doing Elementary Greek first would be better.

 

I'm pretty sure they aren't ready for something as intense as an online course. I'm not sure they could do Athenaze (I have it on hold at the library to better peruse it). Latin is our main focus, Greek is the extra and slower is okay with me.

 

As to myself, I've done a fair amount of Latin and dabbled in Greek, but I am far from an expert. I am working on Beetham's Homeric Greek course for self-study. I'm just not sure about using it with the kids. It seems most people use one of the Koine programs or something like Athenaze/JACT Reading Greek.

 

SarahW could you expound on Koine programs vs. classical ones? And on Reading Greek if you could. I am still considering that course.

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My daughter took an out of the home course in Ancient Greek using the text Thrasymachus: Greek Through Reading by Peckett and Munday and enjoyed it very much.

For those studying at home, the following site might be of interest:

ANCIENT GREEK WITH Thrasymachus

 

 

This site was recommended by my daughter's Greek teacher. It's hosted by Eton.  My daughter found the Vocabulary Tester to be particularly helpful when she was studying first year Greek at the high school level.

Review site for Ancient Greek

 

 

I've no first hand knowledge of this book, but it looks intriguing: Ancient Greek Alive by Paula Saffire

 

Regards,

Kareni

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SarahW could you expound on Koine programs vs. classical ones? And on Reading Greek if you could. I am still considering that course.

 

The problem with Koine programs is that they limit themselves to the grammar/vocab found in the NT, and that is a rather limited corpus. Usually vocab is only taught with the meanings it takes in the NT - the fuller range of meanings are ignored. And parts of the NT are really, really simple. Being able to read 1 John in Greek does not mean one is able to read Greek. That would be like saying that someone who can read Dick and Jane can read English. It is to only a small extent true. Yet, somehow, this is what many of the koine courses seem to aspire to. So then the student is made to feel like they know Greek, but they don't, and then they go to read something else in Greek and are hopelessly lost. I once heard that some Koine-only student once tried to read Hebrews and declared that it was bad Greek! (Hebrews uses more advanced grammar and syntax than most of the rest of the NT).

 

Single-corpus only approaches are fine, I believe there is a Latin course that only teaches how to read Livy, for example. But the idea is that after reading that corpus the student will go on to add another, and then another, until they are generally fluent in all the major forms of that language. So starting with a Koine course is fine, as long as the student knows that this is a limited version of Greek in its most simplest form, and if they wish to understand Greek fully they will need to branch out into another form of it eventually.

 

My daughter took an out of the home course in Ancient Greek using the text Thrasymachus: Greek Through Reading by Peckett and Munday and enjoyed it very much.

 

For those studying at home, the following site might be of interest:

 

ANCIENT GREEK WITH Thrasymachus

 

 

This site was recommended by my daughter's Greek teacher. It's hosted by Eton.  My daughter found the Vocabulary Tester to be particularly helpful when she was studying first year Greek at the high school level.

 

Review site for Ancient Greek

 

 

I've no first hand knowledge of this book, but it looks intriguing: Ancient Greek Alive by Paula Saffire

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

Thrasymachus looks interesting. Though the presentation is perhaps a bit boring. Needs more pictures of Greek men. Preferably wrestling.  :cool:

 

I once owned Greek Alive. Even with knowing some Greek I couldn't figure it out. I think it needs to be used in a classroom with a teacher who is on board with its methodology.

 

 

The only other option I can think of for Classical is Galore Park's Greek (sample pages here). It's for kids, but moves quickly. But it may presuppose knowledge of Latin. MP is supposed to be developing a Greek course, but they still haven't released it. Maybe beg them to be a beta??

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 And on Reading Greek if you could. I am still considering that course.

 

...

 

Greek is the extra and slower is okay with me.

 

 

I forgot about Reading Greek....I haven't actually used it, though I did own it. It's set up much like Athenaze - text + grammar + exercises. But the three separate coordinating books seemed to make it more manageable. It's common for language courses in Europe to have at least three books, which always seemed to make sense to me. Otherwise you're always trying to flip around in one book and keep your fingers in certain pages and write in your notebook at the same time. 

 

That said, the three books can seem intimidating. So that's worth keeping in mind.

 

The "teacher's manual" for Reading Greek is talky, almost scripted. The Teacher's Manual for Athenaze is dense, you would probably need to read it advance and re-present the material in your own words. Neither presuppose that you know any Greek.

 

If you do want to go easy and slow Elementary Greek should be fine, as long as you make sure to skip things you already know! After a year or two of that you can discuss with your boys where they want to explore next in Greek. Athenaze, for example, focuses on Thucydides and Herodotus, so if they like the histories they could pick that. Or a course on Homer, etc. Doing grammar again from the beginning sounds like a drag, but it's really not that bad. In language learning it just makes fluency all that more better. And if you do a "hybrid" text like Athenaze or Reading Greek it will make the "storyline" even more enjoyable.

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We are using Elementary Greek.  I think it is simple, but offers some fun activities.  It is not colorful. It is not overly fancy.  I like the memory verses, etc.  We do supplement with a CD called Sing and Learn Biblical Greek.  It offers declensions, etc. in a song.  My kids memorize the charts and the vocab.  We are pretty straightforward with it, but it is getting the job done.  

 

Just so you know where I am coming from:  I am interested in my kids' learning Greek so that they can some day read the NT in the original.  I am not looking for much beyond that.  

 

HTH

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I have the original book Galore Park published by Kristian Waite, but it seems their new book covers much more ground. However, I could start with the book I have and go from there. I can always add in Bible verses to memorize. The Alphabetarion includes several in part 2 with audio.

 

Is there a preview / look inside for Thrasymachus somewhere?

 

I do want them to be able to appreciate the Bible, but I like them having the option of more than that, if they want it. I suppose having a real goal/objective would help, but I'm just not sure yet. I will look for the chant CD though.

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I could check on an ILL, the closest copies (in the US) are in California though.

 

I'm looking at my Homer books now. I have both A Reading Course in Homeric Greek and Beginning Greek with Homer. I could use one of those, slowly. (The first is a high-school course. The second is set up with self-study in mind.) I've just never heard of anyone doing Homeric Greek with children. (Yes, I'm a collector of foreign language books, and I want to read Homer in Greek.)

 

I think I'll use the GP book I have on hand first. I'm still unsure about our plan on this, hopefully seeing Athenaze when it comes into the library will help.

 

I wish there was a Henle Latin for Greek.

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There are several other Attic Greek textbooks; I've only seen samples of these, but maybe some might work for younger learners?

There's this one by Luschnig and Mitchell:  http://books.google.ca/books/about/An_Introduction_to_Ancient_Greek_A_Liter.html?id=aKULU8vaD_IC&redir_esc=y

This one by Shelmerdine: http://www.amazon.ca/Introduction-Greek-Cynthia-W-Shelmerdine/dp/1585101842

This one by Groton: http://focusbookstore.com/alphatoomega4e.aspx

This one by Keller and Russell: http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300167719

There are also Mastronarde: http://www.amazon.ca/Introduction-Attic-Greek-Donald-Mastronarde/dp/0520275713/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391468267&sr=1-2&keywords=mastronarde+greek

and Hansen & Quinn: http://www.amazon.ca/Greek-Intensive-Course-Hardy-Hansen/dp/0823216632/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391468319&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=hanson+quinn+greek

and I'm sure some others I'm forgetting...Plus all of the oldies at Textkit and archived various places online.

There are reviews of most, if not all, of these on the Bryn Mawr Classical Review site.

 

PS If you really want to do Koine, Christophe Rico's Polis might be fun to look at, too. http://poliskoine.com/site/

I expect you already also know the other Homeric book, by Pharr: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1432533967

 

ETA: I knew I'd forget some!  There's Rouse's First Greek Course, revised by Anne Mahoney: http://focusbookstore.com/firstgreekcourse.aspx

And Crosby and Schaeffer: http://www.bolchazy.com/An-Introduction-to-Greek-P3348.aspx

This one is designed for high school students (Taylor's Greek to GCSE):http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greek-GCSE-Part-John-Taylor/dp/1853996564

Another option is Seligson's book: http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Reading-Gerda-Seligson/dp/0472082663

There's another one whose name escapes me that has both Koine and Attic; I will come back with the link if I can think of the author's name!! Got it--Stephen Paine's Beginning Greek: http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Greek-A-Functional-Approach/dp/0195010132

 

I think that's all I know!

 

Edited again--I remembered a couple more:  Vernhes: http://books.google.ca/books?id=T1RHfgokAcYC&pg=PR20&lpg=PR20&dq=vernhes+greek&source=bl&ots=QeL5NsWhu1&sig=_4VsSk8Rp0_kO4czx1yxtpagIQU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=binwUuXLEZTFoASU0IHADg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=vernhes%20greek&f=false

and the volume from the Teach Yourself series: http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Ancient-Greek-Gavin/dp/0658021397

 

I think that really is all I know now!

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I used Athenaze in my college course, and we did not do 1 book/year. 

 

That surprises me — I thought the standard college pace was one book per semester, and I have heard of intensive courses that cover both books in a single semester.  Lukeion covers one book per year (32 weeks), and there are often middle schoolers in their classes. DS took Greek 1 & 2 in 7th & 8th grade with no previous foreign language experience and found it time consuming (10-12 hrs/wk) but quite doable, and he was far from the youngest student in the class (the youngest was 9, but he was unusual!).

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So is it the consensus that you can jump into a high-school level program, with middle school aged children, and it's okay if you go at their pace? Or is it best to ease in with a program aimed at elementary/middle school children?

 

Perhaps it's six one way and half a dozen the other... :D

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