Dyslexia and Coping Strategies that Hinder Learning to Read

[Tokyomarie]

 

 

There are two "types" of dyslexia (some say 3, but there are many variations of severity regardless).  Double Deficit Dyslexia is an extreme version of dyslexia, in which the child struggles with both regions.

 

Type 1: Phonological processing - difficulty hearing and or placing phonemes in short term memory (making sense of the bits of sound)

 

Type 2: Processing speed - difficulty rapidly recognizing symbols and retrieving their corresponding sounds (recalling the meaning of the images)

 

 

This is what we dealt with for one of my children. Same child also has had visual memory and tracking/accommodation weaknesses. We did not have the advantage of the availability of programs like Barton when we first started (you folks with young children today have sooooo much more available to you than I did 13-14 years ago!)  but I used a lot of O-G strategies and a general O-G progression for phonics. The experience of teaching this child to read was excruciatingly painful.  

 

To the OP: Though the progress seems slow, if your child IS making progress now that wasn't being made, I would stay the course with the Scottish Rite program.

[1shortmomto4]

I've read through of all this topic, and I'm not an expert on any means but way back at the beginning of this thread you state that he is being treated for APD, right?  Was he tested by an audiologist?  If so, I can see where she is suggesting sight words - there is a block between the sounds he's hearing and his brain making those connections.  There is no magic treatment for kids with APD - a lot of try this then try that.  I know this is hard and you just want some progress - forward not in a hold pattern and not two steps back.  If you did, indeed, have an audiologist make the diagnosis of APD, then I'd be more inclined pressing more on that end for help versus more of what you've already been doing and it doesn't seem to be working as well as you had hoped.  Personally, I think there is more that could be done working on those issues to make forward progress - not mention that some kids, LD or not, especially boys, that don't make these reading connections until they are older no matter what you do.

[PeterPan]

OE, you wrote about workbooks for word retrieval, wh-words, etc..

But what needs to considered, is what form the word takes when it is retrieved?

Where the sound of a word is formed in the mind.

But it is actually composed.

Which can be composed in different ways?

For example, you said that you are working with DS to make sure that he understands the word/concept WHAT.

Yet you might consider the different ways that you can say 'What' ?

Where it can be said in different ways,  that give it a different?

What?

As an enquiry, or as insinuation that what was said is wrong or ridiculous. Or as a statement of the obvious.

Where the way it is said, changes the meaning.

 

Though you also wrote about DS just getting that his name has a spelling.

But something that often isn't appreciated, is the cognitive leap with understanding letters?

Where they are just abstract symbols to represent a sound.

That the symbol/ letter doesn't look like the sound in any way.

Where children can have a problem with trying to make see how a letter looks like a sound?

Which basically involves 'abstract thinking'.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm realizing.  I think he's just now starting to get the abstract IDEA of writing, that it represents something.  I don't think it had clicked in his mind before, so it could have been pictures of dogs or hieroglyphics or anything else, for all it meant to him.

 

And yes, the worksheets have the therapist or person doing them ask a series of "wh" questions about a picture.  So you might have a picture of a girl on roller skates, and it will ask what she is wearing, where she is going, why she is skating, etc.  He'll give such oddball answers or he really has to think about it.  After you do the first set on the page, he's usually pretty good for the other 3 images.  (They'll all be pretty similar.)  There's a whole workbook of this, 50-60 pages, so I figure by the end we'll be golden, lol. 

[Χά�ων]

I've read through of all this topic, and I'm not an expert on any means but way back at the beginning of this thread you state that he is being treated for APD, right?  Was he tested by an audiologist?  If so, I can see where she is suggesting sight words - there is a block between the sounds he's hearing and his brain making those connections.  There is no magic treatment for kids with APD - a lot of try this then try that.  I know this is hard and you just want some progress - forward not in a hold pattern and not two steps back.  If you did, indeed, have an audiologist make the diagnosis of APD, then I'd be more inclined pressing more on that end for help versus more of what you've already been doing and it doesn't seem to be working as well as you had hoped.  Personally, I think there is more that could be done working on those issues to make forward progress - not mention that some kids, LD or not, especially boys, that don't make these reading connections until they are older no matter what you do.

 

Yes. He was found to be affected in all 4 areas and is considered severe-profound

[Pen]

 

 

Pen, would the High Noon system be something that could be used instead of Barton for a couple of months or so just to see if progress were better with that?  I don't know if QGOTD would be interested but thought I would ask.

 

I don't have a crystal ball, neither to know what might happen if ____ , nor even to know what exactly is happening even now.

 

Given what has been described, if this were my child in the circumstances as I understand them, I would keep the  Barton/Scottish Rite tutoring going until something else is in place that seems to be doing a better job.

 

I realize that Barton says do nothing else while doing Barton, but if it were my child, I think I would try to add more on while the child is still motivated and has not yet gotten totally down on himself or quit.

 

I do not know how long daily he is working on his reading, but for us it simply took and amazing amount of time  (in divided sessions). That was one of the most important thing I learned about overcoming it--partly from Sally Shaywitz' book, partly from yet another reading teacher specialist. And my impression is that Barton is exhausting if trying to do long sessions of it.

 

So, since Barton is at least doing something, albeit slowly, I'd be very reluctant to drop it entirely, but I would add on the High Noon, more or less as we did it--making allowances for time for Barton too-- would be about an hour per day on HN, Plus I think I would add on www.talkingfingers.com Read Write Type program. That would help to be able to mix things up, I think, so that it would not be too terribly much of all the same thing.

 

I would also consider help from schools if available, depending on the situation and circumstances--which I don't really grasp from what I read on the thread. Though I noticed the mention of Wilson, and I do recall not feeling very positive about Wilson when I was researching programs.

 

I know that the description given of OP's son and mine have many overlaps, but whether what worked for us would work for her and her OP, I do not know. Our experience was that after trying a number of programs (but not Barton) in my first year homeschooling, and after two different B&M schools had not managed to get anywhere, my son went from not reading beyond being able to recognize his own first name, a couple of other names in our immediate family, dog and cat, to reading Rick Riordan books at the end of a year of intensive work...with materials that were finally a good fit for him. Both the right materials for him and the intensive work were necessary. One without the other would not have done it.

 

That year's schooling was almost entirely focussed on reading, with some math not to get behind in math kept up, and use of DVD's and audio tapes to get in some content area learning. But when it was done, he was a reader. He can read for pleasure; he can read to learn; he can read to understand the fine print on labels. Friends who started Barton at the same time, with a child who seemed to be at a similar level of non-reading, have a child who improved, but still is not a reader--with great effort he can get through simple first grade readers, while my son can read Harry Potter with ease.  That is too small a sample for meaningful statistics. But, I also have the word of the reading specialist who recommended HN to us--that it was the program that she most often had positive results with for her 2E type students, which is the way OP's son was described.

[1shortmomto4]

Okay - so what has been put in place for a treatment plan to deal with the APD?  Does he use an FM system to cut down on background noise?  Does he have any hearing loss?  hearing aids?  It just seems as though everyone is focusing on the learning to read but I think the glitch is in the APD and until you figure out that magic key the rest may be futile.  Something in the groundwork in helping him begin to move forward is missing but I can't put my finger on it.

[Χά�ων]

Okay - so what has been put in place for a treatment plan to deal with the APD?  Does he use an FM system to cut down on background noise?  Does he have any hearing loss?  hearing aids?  It just seems as though everyone is focusing on the learning to read but I think the glitch is in the APD and until you figure out that magic key the rest may be futile.  Something in the groundwork in helping him begin to move forward is missing but I can't put my finger on it.

Debated the FM system but the one thing he needed it for is not longer an issue. He is not in a group class and I did not think it would be worth investing in for 1:1 settings. No hearing loss, thankfully. The treatment plan for APD is on going. ot being vague, just very tired and do not want to ignore this thread and the wonderful suggestions and insights :) I will try and type it up when I get home in a week or so. 

[Χά�ων]

With this school, were you able to talk to any parents of kids that have been there?  Were the reviews off of the school website or independent?  

 

If you followed this path, would he need to be in a standard classroom first?  Do you have any idea for how long, if this were the case?  How would he feel about that?

 

As for science and history, could those be relaxed, fun, hands-on projects and DVD's done once or twice a week, maybe just on weekends or something? At least until you and he adjusted to the routine?  

I talked to a couple of parents that I found and from that I am confident he will learn to decode after 3 years. 3 years is the standard length of time a student attends before returning to their previous educational setting. They do not take just any child, they screen to ensure it will be a good fit. 

 

I do not know if he will need to be in a standard classroom first. I have enough documentations and the fact that he is just so scattered in skills and 100% a non reader, he will not be able to be in a regular classroom and learn. Socialize, yes. Learn, no. Even if they wanted to do a trial he wouldn't last a week when reading and writing are expected. His hands do not work well enough for him to write and he can't read. 

 

After schooling wouldn't happen. Ever. I know myself well enough to know I would not do it. Everything he does would be moved to the evenings and weekends and the thought of trying to fit everything into two days makes me shudder. He also has physical limitations and would need physical therapy and occupational therapy. His needs cannot be justified as an educational need. He works HARD. Reading or trying to catch up with his peers physically, he works hard and is highly motivated. I get up at that unholy hour because I have found that he is so desperate to workout that he will do it no matter what. This way at least he is with trainers and has a fitness program to reduce the chances of him doing something stupid and getting hurt. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I talked to a couple of parents that I found and from that I am confident he will learn to decode after 3 years. 3 years is the standard length of time a student attends before returning to their previous educational setting. They do not take just any child, they screen to ensure it will be a good fit. 

 

I do not know if he will need to be in a standard classroom first. I have enough documentations and the fact that he is just so scattered in skills and 100% a non reader, he will not be able to be in a regular classroom and learn. Socialize, yes. Learn, no. Even if they wanted to do a trial he wouldn't last a week when reading and writing are expected. His hands do not work well enough for him to write and he can't read. 

 

After schooling wouldn't happen. Ever. I know myself well enough to know I would not do it. Everything he does would be moved to the evenings and weekends and the thought of trying to fit everything into two days makes me shudder. He also has physical limitations and would need physical therapy and occupational therapy. His needs cannot be justified as an educational need. He works HARD. Reading or trying to catch up with his peers physically, he works hard and is highly motivated. I get up at that unholy hour because I have found that he is so desperate to workout that he will do it no matter what. This way at least he is with trainers and has a fitness program to reduce the chances of him doing something stupid and getting hurt. 

So at this point, you really are looking at three main options?  Stay with Scottish Rite (Barton, possibly LiPS), try to get the ps system to put him in the specialized school for 3 years to work on decoding and math with limited or non-existent science and history, or jump ship and try something inexpensive and completely different (this last I am assuming since your OP seemed to indicate you were seeking other options?)?

[Χά�ων]

Yep

[Χά�ων]

Where can I get that crystal ball?

 

I am looking at the HN stuff as I can

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh for that crystal ball....please, just one peak?  :)

[Lecka]

I just looked at High Noon again -- there are samples, and a table-of-contents type of page. 

 

It was a program I looked at, but I thought my son was young for it at the time.  I used Abecedarian at the time -- I think it has similarities to High Noon (from looking at samples), but it seemed like it would be better for a younger child. 

 

I don't think it is night-and-day different from Barton. 

 

I don't think the way it teaches sounding-out is really different from Barton... honestly I think Barton might be better for learning to sound out. 

 

Then after sounding out (and along with sounding out, b/c you can practice it at the same time) there is learning all the patterns. 

 

My son only, or at least mainly, has the phonemic awareness deficit.  He may have the other processing things a little bit, but I don't think it is much. 

 

I think both these programs would start with sounding out, and move on to patterns (or phonics -- whatever it would be called).  They would have a different order, some different things. 

 

But I don't think they are vastly different. 

 

I say this as someone -- whose son was stuck at learning to sound out for a very long time and with a huge amount of practice needed to learn to sound out. 

 

I don't know how he could have done certain things, without knowing how to sound out at a certain very basic level. 

 

I have an impression -- if he is in Barton Level 1, sounding out is still a work in progress. 

 

I really like the samples from High Noon, and have heard good opinions from other places, too.  I am just not sure it is better for the sounding out part. 

 

I have no opinion on skipping or bypassing learning to sound out (or blend).  I don't know how you do things with someone who cannot blend.  It is like -- if they can't blend, if they are not matching letters with sounds when they look at a word ------- how are you supposed to do phonics (or whatever). 

 

My son also had trouble associating letter sounds to letters.  How do you do phonics, with someone who is not associating letter sounds to letters?  Or -- kind-of, but not very well?  I don't know how. 

 

I am not sure High Noon is going to be a big improvement in that area. 

 

Past that point, into the actual learning of the patterns ---- that is a different story I think.  It is a different kettle of fish. 

 

But there are samples to see, too. 

 

Abecedarian reading program has a free "blending and segmenting guide."  I can directly compare it to Barton Level 1.  It is similar in a lot of ways, but it is NOT better.  If someone had trouble with one, the other would not be better (like -- they are similar enough), and I think Barton would be a better choice for that level.  (Although if someone had access to the Barton DVDs or training in how to do multisensory, and could make it multisensory like many people can who are tutoring with it, that would be different.  But I do not have that.)  (Really I think Barton is better b/c of the DVDs -- if you did not need the DVDs, I think they are fairly similar.)   

 

 

[1shortmomto4]

Well if you go the school route - I'd definitely do the FM system and that is something they should provide - it really does make a difference.  It cuts down on the brain processing speed needed to interpret the language. 

[Pen]

Please take a look at www.talkingfingers.com -- their first level of Read Write Type (if I correctly recall the name). For a child interested and motivated to do things and if you have high speed computer connection available it would give him something to work on that would help with reading and also typing (likely to be helpful with someone where writing is hard).  It has vocal prompts that say things like type "fff" (giving the usual f sound, not the letter name). I had thought when we started out on HN that my ds of course knew the basic sounds of all the letters of the alphabet, but he did not, and talkingfingers helped with that. It was reasonably fun, also. And as I recall was not extremely expensive. A trial lesson was free. My crystal ball says you may as well look and at least have him try the free lesson if still available ;) .

 

HN is quite a bit different than Barton so far as I can understand the two--though of course all reading programs are likely to have some overlap, just as math programs also will. If you want, I can talk about my experience with it, how we used it, etc.,  on the phone with you if you are in USA and you PM me your number--or vice versa.

[OneStepAtATime]

Please take a look at www.talkingfingers.com -- their first level of Read Write Type (if I correctly recall the name). For a child interested and motivated to do things and if you have high speed computer connection available it would give him something to work on that would help with reading and also typing (likely to be helpful with someone where writing is hard).  It has vocal prompts that say things like type "fff" (giving the usual f sound, not the letter name). I had thought when we started out on HN that my ds of course knew the basic sounds of all the letters of the alphabet, but he did not, and talkingfingers helped with that. It was reasonably fun, also. And as I recall was not extremely expensive. A trial lesson was free. My crystal ball says you may as well look and at least have him try the free lesson if still available ;) .

 

HN is quite a bit different than Barton so far as I can understand the two--though of course all reading programs are likely to have some overlap, just as math programs also will. If you want, I can talk about my experience with it, how we used it, etc.,  on the phone with you if you are in USA and you PM me your number--or vice versa.

I hadn't heard of talking fingers.  Interesting!

[Pen]

Just to give one major difference between HN and Barton--and a reason for us to go with HN not Barton:

 

Barton begins with nonsense words. I believe if my ds had had to start with nonsense words he would still not be reading--or like his friend be stuck way back at grade 1 level as an 11 year old.

 

HN does not get into nonsense until late, and it is not a major part of the program.  It puts together utilizing understanding and comprehension abilities along with phonics and limited sight words to get a person reading. This was a reason it was a top choice for us where there might be pretty severe dyslexia, prior problems with speech delay and so on, but at the same time high comprehension abilities. I have probably had dyslexia too, though did not realize it until dealing with my son. The reality is that neither of us is terrific at nonsense words even now. But we are both readers. My son is way above age/grade level now, and able to read adult books like the adult version of Howard Zinn's history. His standardized reading test last time he took it was excellent (having been at one point before we began remediation, a zero, it went up to the second highest of all students taking it at the place he took it, and the highest tier level on the test as scored). I have degrees in English literature and law, both of which take extensive reading. It is possible to become a good reader, and not start with nonsense.

[OneStepAtATime]

Just to give one major difference between HN and Barton--and a reason for us to go with HN not Barton:

 

Barton begins with nonsense words. I believe if my ds had had to start with nonsense words he would still not be reading--or like his friend be stuck way back at grade 1 level as an 11 year old.

 

HN does not get into nonsense until late, and it is not a major part of the program.  It puts together utilizing understanding and comprehension abilities along with phonics and limited sight words to get a person reading. This was a reason it was a top choice for us where there might be pretty severe dyslexia, prior problems with speech delay and so on, but at the same time high comprehension abilities. I have probably had dyslexia too, though did not realize it until dealing with my son. The reality is that neither of us is terrific at nonsense words even now. But we are both readers. My son is way above age/grade level now, and able to read adult books like the adult version of Howard Zinn's history. His standardized reading test last time he took it was excellent (having been at one point before we began remediation, a zero, it went up to the second highest of all students taking it at the place he took it, and the highest tier level on the test as scored). I have degrees in English literature and law, both of which take extensive reading. It is possible to become a good reader, and not start with nonsense.

I have exceeded my likes or I would have liked this.  Pen has had great success with an alternative to Barton.  Every child is different.  For both my DD and DS, starting over with nonsense words at the beginning actually cleared up quite a few things for both of them and they did great.  But that is not true for every dyslexic child.  Maybe HN would help.  

 

I know it is really hard when you have tried so many different things and nothing seems to be working the way it seems it should.  You are not alone, QGotD, even though it may seem so.  You are in a difficult position.  I wish there were easy answers.  But there is something that is going to help out there somewhere.  I have faith.  Sending you big, big hugs as you decide what path to follow.

[Pen]

Umm, this is off topic, but we have a limited number of "likes?" I didn't know that!

[Χά�ων]

Umm, this is off topic, but we have a limited number of "likes?" I didn't know that!

I think it is like 50 per 24 hour period.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yeah, I was a little startled to find out there was a limit to likes, too, Pen.  Thanks for the clarification on the number QGotD!

[Pen]

I have exceeded my likes or I would have liked this.  Pen has had great success with an alternative to Barton.  Every child is different.  For both my DD and DS, starting over with nonsense words at the beginning actually cleared up quite a few things for both of them and they did great.  But that is not true for every dyslexic child.  Maybe HN would help.  

 

I know it is really hard when you have tried so many different things and nothing seems to be working the way it seems it should.  You are not alone, QGotD, even though it may seem so.  You are in a difficult position.  I wish there were easy answers.  But there is something that is going to help out there somewhere.  I have faith.  Sending you big, big hugs as you decide what path to follow.

 

Yes. For sure!  And of course, we all tend to be partial to the thing that, in retrospect, worked for our particular child! Actually, I usually mention HN, but this is probably the most vehement I have been in a strong recommendation for it to someone, because this situation sounds so much like my ds, that I think what we did may have a chance with him too--and I feel sad for OP's son, wanting to read and not being able to, which is what I was dealing with too. I also know things tend to get harder and harder as the gap between ability to read and what one wants to read grows bigger.

 

Both HN and Barton are approved in Calif. public schools, so a reading specialist could choose which (or what other program among many possible) might be a good fit, and change if it seemed like the first choice was wrong. At least in theory.

 

Which brings me to also suggest that when looking at programs at B&M schools to see if they have the ability to meet the student and use a variety of tools, or if they are one size fits all, and just have one program they offer. When my ds was at B&M schools and their programs were not working for him, it added to distress because the view tended to be, if our program isn't working then it is the fault of the student, rather than that their program is a bad fit. And they were not able to use anything other than their one size fits all approach.

[Pen]

PS At the point we started our marathon reading program year, I really had started to give up on that my ds would be able to read normally, but I wanted if possible for him to at least be able to read the things that one cannot get on Learning Ally etc.--such as to be able to read directions, product and medicine labels, rental contracts and so on for his life. And accepting that maybe he would have to use things like Learning Ally for learning and novels and so on. But I also had held things like Percy Jackson and Harry Potter as incentives for my ds to read on his own...

 

Still, I want to also say to QGotD that even for things like medicine bottle labels and contracts, there may be coming technology that can scan it and read it out...so do not despair. His life can still go on. There are people with really severe dyslexia who cannot read, and yet are brilliant in various areas and do manage to have good lives.

 

Still, it is good to be able to read, and he wants to be able to do that, and the chances are very good that some program or programs and some approach will work for him as it has for OneStep@aT's children and my son.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes. For sure!  And of course, we all tend to be partial to the thing that, in retrospect, worked for our particular child! Actually, I usually mention HN, but this is probably the most vehement I have been in a strong recommendation for it to someone, because this situation sounds so much like my ds, that I think what we did may have a chance with him to--and I feel sad for OP's son, wanting to read and not being able to, which is what I was dealing with too. I also know things tend to get harder and harder as the gap between ability to read and what one wants to read grows bigger.

 

Both HN and Barton are approved in Calif. public schools, so a reading specialist could choose which (or what other program among many possible) might be a good fit, and change if it seemed like the first choice was wrong. At least in theory.

 

Which brings me to also suggest that when looking at programs at B&M schools to see if they have the ability to meet the student and use a variety of tools, or if they are one size fits all, and just have one program they offer. When my ds was at B&M schools and their programs were not working for him, it added to distress because the view tended to be, if our program isn't working then it is the fault of the student, rather than that their program is a bad fit. And they were not able to use anything other than their one size fits all approach.

 

 

PS At the point we started our marathon reading program year, I really had started to give up on that my ds would be able to read normally, but I wanted if possible for him to at least be able to read the things that one cannot get on Learning Ally etc.--such as to be able to read directions, product and medicine labels, rental contracts and so on for his life. And accepting that maybe he would have to use things like Learning Ally for learning and novels and so on. But I also had held things like Percy Jackson and Harry Potter as incentives for my ds to read on his own...

 

Still, I want to also say to QGotD that even for things like medicine bottle labels and contracts, there may be coming technology that can scan it and read it out...so do not despair. His life can still go on. There are people with really severe dyslexia who cannot read, and yet are brilliant in various areas and do manage to have good lives.

 

Still, it is good to be able to read, and he wants to be able to do that, and the chances are very good that some program or programs and some approach will work for him as it has for OneStep@aT's children and my son.

Well since the blasted Like thing is maxed out, I will just multi-quote and say "Yes!" to the above....best wishes.  :)

[Χά�ων]

I have to admit that I am very overwhelmed with all the information. Thank you!

 

I put the reading at the top of my list last year and DS did a program that turned out to be a waste of time and money. They did not do what they promised and he went backwards in some areas. Turns out that they are known for the kids not making progress. I would not have wasted my time had I known. I can only move on and make it a point to not refer people to that place. 

 

 

[Χά�ων]

Talkingfingers.com how important is the preschool app? I do not have any iproducts and I see it is not available on android. 

[Χά�ων]

Yes. For sure!  And of course, we all tend to be partial to the thing that, in retrospect, worked for our particular child! Actually, I usually mention HN, but this is probably the most vehement I have been in a strong recommendation for it to someone, because this situation sounds so much like my ds, that I think what we did may have a chance with him too--and I feel sad for OP's son, wanting to read and not being able to, which is what I was dealing with too. I also know things tend to get harder and harder as the gap between ability to read and what one wants to read grows bigger.

 

Both HN and Barton are approved in Calif. public schools, so a reading specialist could choose which (or what other program among many possible) might be a good fit, and change if it seemed like the first choice was wrong. At least in theory.

 

Which brings me to also suggest that when looking at programs at B&M schools to see if they have the ability to meet the student and use a variety of tools, or if they are one size fits all, and just have one program they offer. When my ds was at B&M schools and their programs were not working for him, it added to distress because the view tended to be, if our program isn't working then it is the fault of the student, rather than that their program is a bad fit. And they were not able to use anything other than their one size fits all approach.

That is my concern with the private school. They use Wilson and only Wilson. The PS using a different program similar to LiPS (per them) but I had never heard of it before then or since. 

[Χά�ων]

I looked over the HN program. I have done so much like what I see they have for phonemic awareness that I am wary.  How is it different than other programs? 

[Pen]

Talkingfingers.com how important is the preschool app? I do not have any iproducts and I see it is not available on android. 

 

I'm at home where I don't have highspeed and can't see what things are like over at their site at all.

 

So far as I know there was no preschool app when we used the program.

 

I bought the whole of what was then Read,Write,Type and Wordy Qwerty package. It would not work on our then newer computer, but I was feeling so desperate that I had planned to buy an old second hand computer just to run that. However, before I did that, we were able to get high speed access at the local PS's computer lab 5 days per week.

 

Thus what my son actually did was Read,Write,Type--which, btw, when I actually signed up rather than just on the demo, allowed me to set the target speed and error rate. I had them set to be quite easy for him, because my ds had already developed a lot of distress and frustration, and he'd been in speech therapy for years, so I already knew that hearing differences between certain sounds was not easy for him. If we would have had time, I would have had him go through the program more than once, making it harder on subsequent rounds, which would have helped improve his typing skills and speed, while also reinforcing his work on sound-letter correspondence and reading skills. However, not long after he got through it once, the lab was taken over for state standardized testing, then closed for summer vacation, and so on, and by the time we had access again he had read Rick Riordan's Kane Chronicles so I guessed we were past that point.

 

I need to be off the computer for a few days or more, and in general not be on so much because I think it is contributing to neck strain and headaches. 

[Pen]

I looked over the HN program. I have done so much like what I see they have for phonemic awareness that I am wary.  How is it different than other programs? 

 

ETA: I PM'd you.  I think a lot had to do with exactly how we used the program and also the TalkingFingers did help with this.

 

Although we had already come a long way by then, another thing that helped was meeting a reading specialist in person who asked him about his reading, and when he was not sure what to say in answer to did he have trouble understanding what he read (he could read so little it was hard to answer this I think), I said, no, his understanding was excellent, but that he had a lot of trouble decoding.

She said, in a very upbeat tone, something like "Oh good, because we can fix that. Not understanding is hard to fix.

But decoding problems we can solve."

 

It was a tremendous sense of relief to hear that. And I think it helped both spur on the great marathon, and also at the same time, I think some of his trouble may have been stress related because he had already been seated at the 'dumb kids table' at one school, and also had troubles at another school, and an "I can't" or "I'm dumb" sense had set in causing more trouble. Even causing physical tension that may have added to swimming letters or lack of good tracking (he also has amblyopia) and other symptoms for a downhill spiral.

[Lecka]

My thing about HN is it looks like it starts at too high of a level. 

 

My son had missing skills where I don't think he could have started at the beginning and gotten anywhere.  But once he got to the starting level or a little overlap over it -- it was one of my top two choices. 

 

I had not thought of using other skills to bypass.....

 

I think my son had trouble all the way back at just matching letters and sounds.  I don't know -- I just don't think every kid has that trouble, but if they do, some things are not going to work until that hump is gotten over.  Or bypassed. 

 

I don't think my son had comprehension skills to help him bypass it, at the time.  Now he has comprehension skills, but before he didn't. 

 

Anyway -- I had not thought about bypassing things and building them up other ways. 

[FairProspects]

I haven't read the whole thread, but we are seeing major progress with Barton, and I have a huge guesser. If that is an issue, you really have to break that habit with dyslexics, otherwise they end up skipping those small words or substituting words and long term their comprehension suffers significantly. Just ask my friend's 17 year old. Her biggest regret is that she didn't remediate him when he compensated by guessing at a young age.

[ElizabethB]

What can he sound out currently? I have ideas, but different based on which sounds are known so far, how to work with those and progress. You said 11, right? Listing them would help.

[FO4UR]

At the risk of advising something you've already tried....

 

 

Have you tried Dancing Bears?  http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/

 

 

Bearing Away would be where I'd start.  

 

 

Talkingfingers is a great program.  That's what I use to teach typing.  

[Χά�ων]

I mentioned to the dyslexia place about LIPS. They want to try 'straight OG' program (whatever that means) and introduce Red sight words. The reason is that they do not want to wait until next school year to introduce letters. They had him writing in sand the word "is". He already knows that word! I think they want the data they are taking to look good and it does not look good to have a child who cannot get through Barton Level 1. I plan to continue to advocate and I will pull him out if needed. He has left in tears every session since my OP. He leaves in tears again and I plan to yank him. I have already wasted enough of his life on therapies that are not benefiting him. I am disgusted by so many places that only want kids who make their numbers look good or who can be plugged into a slot for them to meet clinic hours. My son is not going to be that child.

 

I ordered Highnoon this morning. 

[Χά�ων]

What can he sound out currently? I have ideas, but different based on which sounds are known so far, how to work with those and progress. You said 11, right? Listing them would help.

10 and he cannot sound anything out. Never has been able to make that leap.

[ElizabethB]

10 and he cannot sound anything out. Never has been able to make that leap.

:grouphug:

 

Does he know any letter sounds?

[Χά�ων]

:grouphug:

 

Does he know any letter sounds?

Hmm I would say half a dozen letters at the most but even those are not consistent. 

[ElizabethB]

Hmm I would say half a dozen letters at the most but even those are not consistent.

Which ones? If you list them out It will help, list all that he at least sometimes knows.

[Χά�ων]

Which ones? If you list them out It will help, list all that he sometimes knows.

Knows 100%

B, D, T, S, M, G

 

 

Knows some of the time

C [k], (short) A, (short) I, N, S, P

 

 

Keeping in mind that he does not have a solid grasp of which letter is which.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

That is tough, but I have ideas where to start now!

 

First, with him, watch the first few 3 minutes of my draft RELTR lesson 2.  (These are for younger children or older struggling students and these videos are secular.)

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/RELTR/reltrlinks.html

 

Then, read the section on the atomic nature of syllables (about 1/3 of the way down) on my dyslexia page and have him look at the sound waveforms with you.

 

Then, you can work on a modified syllabary with him, I will work one up based on those sounds while you look through those things.

[ElizabethB]

I would start with this syllabary based on the sounds he knows, except s and g, s has exceptions and g slightly modifies the vowel sound, work on those after simpler ones are well learned:

 

at it

am im

ab ib

ad id

 

Then, using the charts below for help, you sound out and then read through the full short vowel syllabaries for the above, then have him try:

 

at et it ot ut

am em im om um

ab eb ib ob ub

ad ed id od ud

 

Then, do the same for 

 

ac ec ic oc uc

an en in on un

ap ep ep op up

 

http://archive.org/stream/phonovisualmetho00scho#page/n0/mode/2up

 

The consonant chart is on page 10, the vowel chart is on page 30 using page numbers at the bottom of the actual scanned book.  If these work well, you can purchase copies here, I use the small consonant and vowel charts with most of my remedial students.

 

You may also have to try putting pictures of the sound being made by the lips and tongue next to the sounds, I like this website, you could take screen shots of this and print them out or find a good black and white source to print, people here might have ideas where to find good pictures.

 

Then, you can add long vowel syllabaries.  Most of my students with speech/hearing difficulties actually find the long vowels easier, so you might want to try them even if the short vowel ones did not work well.

 

ma me mi mo mu my (ma is long a as in may, not ma as in the word ma, the long a in ma-ple or ma-ker.)

ga ge gi go gu gy (g does not cause problems before a vowel)

ba be bi bo bu by

ta te ti to tu ty

sa se si so su sy

da de di do du dy

 

Then

 

na ne ni no nu ny

pa pe pi po pu py

 

Work on sounds with the charts and the website/app and then add syllables as new consonants are learned.  You can also work on words with the syllables known, like de-ny, re-ly, ho-bo, etc.  My son had a stuffed monkey named bobo, that worked too.

 

For the long u sounds yoo vs. oo, you will probably need to go over page 7B of my spelling rules (rules helpful for ESL students and students with speech/language difficulties.)

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/spelling%20rules1.pdf

 

 

[ElizabethB]

I also like to work in all uppercase in large letters on a whiteboard for students who guess from the shape of a word.  It might not be necessary with the syllables, but something to keep in mind when you get to working with words.  I stay with uppercase until they have the sound/spelling and sounding out of the letters well automated and are no longer guessing from word shape.  Also, large uppercase letters are helpful for students who may have a bit of vision difficulties.  While I like to eventually get those vision addressed and remediated, a good interim measure is large uppercase.

[OneStepAtATime]

Really hoping that High Noon may help.

 

 I don't know how you would feel about someone ever doing this, but there are times when I wish I could see a real time brain scan of my kids when they are seeming to get something and then again when they seem to trip up on it, or the areas that DS glitches on consistently, just to see what the difference might be.  I have been informed by a researcher friend that the ability to do detailed brain scans while a subject is actively doing something is becoming more and more affordable and the equipment more readily available which means more people are able to do that type of research.  I am hoping it will give more concrete answers for at least some of the learning issues that so many parents are experiencing with their kids.  

 

I do feel that things are getting better in many ways.  There is so much that is known or suspected now that wasn't in place in the mainstream medical community even just a few years ago.  Eventually, that info will trickle into the education community, too.  I just wish the pace were a little faster.  I am so, so incredibly sorry that you do not have concrete answers for where the disconnect is and how to address it.  Big hugs and best wishes of hope, to you and your family.

[Χά�ων]

Update!

 

It was a hard winter health wise for DS. He spent weeks on end in bed unable to get up so progress through High Noon has been slower than I anticipated. He is finishing up lesson 19 and something ha really clicked with him.

 

He can read!

 

Yes, at lesson 19 of 65, my son can read. He never got passed Barton level 1. He has done many other programs with no results and after 19 lessons in this he is reading. He still has a lot to learn but this program is doing it. He gets it. 

 

The only thing left is to break the habit of him saying "I can't read" whenever he encounters something that needs to be read. More often then not he can read it with minimal help. 

 

It is still early but I am looking at High Noon level 2 and their spelling program. 

 

I love the vision therapy books, but I have found that I can make my own to help him. 

 

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

[Pen]

Fantastic!!!

[OneStepAtATime]

Update!

 

It was a hard winter health wise for DS. He spent weeks on end in bed unable to get up so progress through High Noon has been slower than I anticipated. He is finishing up lesson 19 and something ha really clicked with him.

 

He can read!

 

Yes, at lesson 19 of 65, my son can read. He never got passed Barton level 1. He has done many other programs with no results and after 19 lessons in this he is reading. He still has a lot to learn but this program is doing it. He gets it. 

 

The only thing left is to break the habit of him saying "I can't read" whenever he encounters something that needs to be read. More often then not he can read it with minimal help. 

 

It is still early but I am looking at High Noon level 2 and their spelling program. 

 

I love the vision therapy books, but I have found that I can make my own to help him. 

 

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

Oh, my goodness that is WONDERFUL!  

[Pen]

Suggestion-- don't jump too soon into getting Level 2 if you mean the whole second Intervention Program level 2 (not if you just mean the second level of Sound Out books)-- calculate shipping time it would take to get it and see how he is doing by the time you get to where you'd have to order to have it when you would run out of the first level.

 

While I think it might have helped my son to do the whole HN program, what actually happened was that before we got to Level 2 of the Intervention, my son was reading easy regular books, and we ended up using High Noon methods on materials like Magic Tree House and progressing upward that way from grade level 2 materials to grade level 4 materials. 

 

He had a few struggle, hurdle points along the way of the first intervention Level where we seemed to be stuck for longer periods and sometimes I had to break things down even more incrementally than HN does, but then there came a point when he had enough experience to start making bigger leaps--that does not always happen, and it had been such a struggle early I did not think it would for him, but it did.   The early attempts with multiple programs and 2 schools before HN and then the early slow going through it made me think he would need every level and many sound out type books, but I definitely over bought in anticipation.

 

 

Once reading the "real books" it became almost impossible, emotionally, to do the reading program anymore, but it also became so much more easy to work daily on reading when it became more and more interesting and age and interest compatible, and also the "I can't read" started to go away finally and to be replaced by "I am reading." I think for my son, that did not really come until the reading was what others he knew were also reading--Percy Jackson and so on.

 

It is easy to be so thrilled and excited at the stage of one's child going from not reading to reading that one over anticipates and overbuys--or anyway, was that way for me. 

[OneStepAtATime]

 

It is easy to be so thrilled and excited at the stage of one's child going from not reading to reading that one over anticipates and overbuys--or anyway, was that way for me. 

This is really good advice.  This happened for me, too, but really it was with math.  Ugh!  Wasted a ton of money on a ton of math programs early in our homeschooling....

[Χά�ων]

I do not plan to buy high noon 2 right away. :)  

 

I am looking at a few of the vision therapy workbooks and a couple of other things I think he will benefit from. He love the book and is just eating them up and begging for more. I am going to buy a couple more sets. He is also reading the lowest level kids national geographic magazines and a few books I have around the house. I have told him I plan to try and get through as much of High Noon as possible this summer (well, what's left of it) and then in the fall he will spend an hour or so a day reading real books. He has a friend who is a year above him and also dyslexic, he worked through the magic tree house books last year so DS is excited to do them as well in 5th grade. 

 

And he wants to read Hank the Cowdog.  :tongue_smilie:

 

Prolonged reading of smaller text is very hard still. Even after vision therapy. So once he is really reading he is going to get a Kindle DX so he can make the text larger.