NCAA and athlete academic abilities

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In the past there were some hearty discussions about navigating NCAA eligibility that included some discussion of abuse by colleges.  A few posters shared their experiences with trying to get transcripts approved by NCAA. That discussion included a sideline discussion about NCAA and players in high profile revenue sports who were only students in the barest sense of the word.  A couple articles this week brought the topic to mind again.

 

 

CNN has a report out after going through records form 21 colleges/universities.

 

CNN: Some College Athletes Play like Adults, Read like 5th Graders

 

[quotation removed]

 

There is also an interesting essay on the topic by Isaiah Thomas

 

I couldn't find the old thread. If I dig it up I'll add a link

[In The Great White North]

One of the commenters hit the root of the problem:  the NCAA.

 

All their rules have done nothing to improve the situation of ill-prepared athletes on campus.  Some, like these, have actually hurt it:

 

1.  Not allowing four year scholarships.  This ensures that the athletes will pay more attention to the sport than academics.  If he doesn't, his scholarship gets cut and he can't afford to come back without it.  He has no choice.  It also means if he gets hurt, he doesn't graduate.

 

2.  Limiting scholarships.  If there were no scholarship limits, the schools that could afford it would offer more four year scholarships, allowing athletes to concentrate more on academics.  Life isn't fair.  Artificial attempts to create parity between universities is hopeless and scholarship limits only hurt athletes; they don't solve it.

 

3.  Allowing games and practices to be scheduled during traditional class time.  A student (of any calibre) who misses lots of classes is going to do worse than a student who attends all classes.  That's obvious.  The class schedule should be more important the the TV schedule.  Coaches should not be able to demand that  their athletes come to practice at 9 am or 2 pm or over lunch, etc.  (Actually, the university should require this and some do, at least with practice times.)

My solution to the problem is to give each student athlete a four years of sports eligibility, with room & board, and a scholarship for four years of school that can start after their athletic career is over.  Academics are a farce for many of these athletes, and there is so much money involved that no college will do anything to stem the flow of cash.  But for those who really want an education, give them the opportunity to be full-time students.

[snowbeltmom]

One of the commenters hit the root of the problem:  the NCAA.

 

All their rules have done nothing to improve the situation of ill-prepared athletes on campus.  Some, like these, have actually hurt it:

 

1.  Not allowing four year scholarships.  This ensures that the athletes will pay more attention to the sport than academics.  If he doesn't, his scholarship gets cut and he can't afford to come back without it.  He has no choice.  It also means if he gets hurt, he doesn't graduate.

 

2.  Limiting scholarships.  If there were no scholarship limits, the schools that could afford it would offer more four year scholarships, allowing athletes to concentrate more on academics.  Life isn't fair.  Artificial attempts to create parity between universities is hopeless and scholarship limits only hurt athletes; they don't solve it.

 

3.  Allowing games and practices to be scheduled during traditional class time.  A student (of any calibre) who misses lots of classes is going to do worse than a student who attends all classes.  That's obvious.  The class schedule should be more important the the TV schedule.  Coaches should not be able to demand that  their athletes come to practice at 9 am or 2 pm or over lunch, etc.  (Actually, the university should require this and some do, at least with practice times.)

:iagree:

The NCAA doesn't care about whether the student is academically prepared for college.  All of their rules have everything to do with generating more $$$$ for the NCAA.  When a student only has to get a combined Math and Reading score of 400 on the SAT, no one should be surprised that some of these kids can't read.

 

The DIV I colleges and the NCAA are making millions exploiting these athletes.  College football, in particular, is nothing more than the minor league for the NFL.

 

My kids play a non-revenue sport.  My son was speaking with a Div I coach a few months ago.  The coach told him that the team usually misses the equivalent of 2.5 months of school each year.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:iagree:

The NCAA doesn't care about whether the student is academically prepared for college.  All of their rules have everything to do with generating more $$$$ for the NCAA.  When a student only has to get a combined Math and Reading score of 400 on the SAT, no one should be surprised that some of these kids can't read.

 

The DIV I colleges and the NCAA are making millions exploiting these athletes.  College football, in particular, is nothing more than the minor league for the NFL.

 

My kids play a non-revenue sport.  My son was speaking with a Div I coach a few months ago.  The coach told him that the team usually misses the equivalent of 2.5 months of school each year.  

 

This just boggles the mind. I was on two varsity sports in college. One was not well managed and was axed a couple years after I graduated. The other was very well run and moved up to a higher conference shortly after I graduated.  But in neither instance were we missing months worth of school in a year.

 

Training camp was over spring break.  (And we stayed on campus, though the team now goes somewhere warm like Florida. Which is an improvement, since it snowed every year, keeping us off the water.)

 

We might miss an afternoon or even a couple days of class. But we also had team study time in the hotel. I remember one year the championships were during part of finals and we were all packed into the hotel meeting room taking our exam, administered by the team academic rep.

 

I think that too many coaches and administrators have forgotten what the purpose of college is supposed to be.

[swimmermom3]

Thanks, Sebastian. I think about this issue a lot.

 

As a homeschooler, I am required by state law to have my son tested in 10th grade using a nationally-normed test. If I want to keep him eligible to swim for our local high school, I must have him tested every year using a nationally-normed test. So this year, in the middle of ACT, SAT, SAT Subject tests, and AP tests, I must have him take yet another Terra Nova (worthless for us - $70) test. His scores for the other, more challenging test are not acceptable. Our state does this in order to "protect" home-schooled athletes.

And you all know about the NCAA requirements for homeschoolers and the irony there.

 

On the flip-side, I have watched a handful of nationally-ranked swimmers from our swim club be recruited from the ps system to really great schools, yet three of these young men had GPAs right at or below the 2.0 mark and would not have met the admissions requirements for some of our state universities. Only one of them did not return home after the first year. It's unfortuante all the way around.

[snowbeltmom]

This just boggles the mind. I was on two varsity sports in college. One was not well managed and was axed a couple years after I graduated. The other was very well run and moved up to a higher conference shortly after I graduated.  But in neither instance were we missing months worth of school in a year.

 

Training camp was over spring break.  (And we stayed on campus, though the team now goes somewhere warm like Florida. Which is an improvement, since it snowed every year, keeping us off the water.)

 

We might miss an afternoon or even a couple days of class. But we also had team study time in the hotel. I remember one year the championships were during part of finals and we were all packed into the hotel meeting room taking our exam, administered by the team academic rep.

 

I think that too many coaches and administrators have forgotten what the purpose of college is supposed to be.

 

It was an eye-opener for not only my son, but my husband and me.  I guess I expected it for a revenue sport, but not for a sport that no one else on campus really cares about.  My son was already leaning away from Div I because he had been told that it would be extremely difficult to major in engineering and play Div I - not because of the workload of engineering, but because the labs are typically scheduled in the afternoons at the same time as practice and matches.  And practices take precedent over a lab.  Hearing about the amount of missed days was the final straw.  He will be attending a Div III school.

 

 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

My kids play a non-revenue sport.  My son was speaking with a Div I coach a few months ago.  The coach told him that the team usually misses the equivalent of 2.5 months of school each year.  

 

 

It boggles my mind too.

 

I swam Div I in college.  I think I might have missed a day or two a year (obviously didn't go to the week-long NCAA Championships).

 

One of the benefits of attending a service academy is that you can play your sport without missing class for practice.  They are rather adamant about that. No practice is scheduled to conflict with your classes.  The coach doesn't insist you choose an easier major. Their eye is on the prize at the end of the road:  graduation and commissioning.  Not that the NCAA had anything to contribute to that.

 

OTOH, if a swimmer, who is used to swimming 6 days a week all year round, goes to a Div III school and doesn't have out of season practice, how do they ever improve their times?

[MtnTeaching]

Thank you for the information, Sebastian.  The NCAA is a bit of a sore spot in our family right now.  Dd (15 9th) is very athletic, very tall, and an excellent volleyball player.  She has been coached for the past three years by top College players/coaches. She has worked hard year-round and even came back from a broken ankle last year (during a club tournament) to win Star Middle Hitter at the local university's summer camp, less than a week after being released from physical therapy.

 

She received a letter from the same university stating that she was one of their top prospects for the year 2017.

 

Unfortunately, with the current NCAA rules, it does not look as if she would be able to play for a college.  She homeschools and takes outside classes from teachers other than myself.  It does not seem to matter that those teachers have their doctorates or that the courses are rigorous or that dd is working extremely hard to overcome her dyslexia.  Ps students with a "composite 700 SAT" will be chosen before she will be allowed to play.

 

Currently, dd is so discouraged by the disorganization of the local university's club volleyball team, that she is not even playing. (This is a whole other discussion that is beyond frustrating, but needless to say, $3500 + additional travel costs are not going to happen with the crazy, incomprehensible disorganization shown by this group.)   She stated that she does not want to spend every waking moment of her life working so hard on this one sport if there is a big possibility she may not even be able to play due to the NCAA.

 

In a way, I am sad. She is very good and it is a pleasure to see her play.  She thrives on competition. On the other hand, I want to see her become a well-rounded young lady.  She intends to ski a lot more this winter, something we have not been able to do for several years due to the travel schedule of volleyball.  She also wants to try rock climbing, play more sand volleyball (with a coach), spend more time on her Musical Theater, and volunteer more helping animals in some way.

 

The whole process has been a bit disheartening.  There are times that I wish high school athletics could be more like it was when I was in school.  

 

Kids could play more than one sport and still have the opportunity to play in college. They say they want well-rounded students at the colleges, but when it comes to the ones who play athletics for them, that does not seem to be true.  These articles seem to back this up.

[MtnTeaching]

Double post.

[Robin in DFW]

nm

[snowbeltmom]

(snip)

Unfortunately, with the current NCAA rules, it does not look as if she would be able to play for a college.  She homeschools and takes outside classes from teachers other than myself.  It does not seem to matter that those teachers have their doctorates or that the courses are rigorous or that dd is working extremely hard to overcome her dyslexia.

 

There are ways to get around the stupidity of the NCAA requirements.  Even if your dd takes outside classes with other teachers, you can consider yourself the "teacher of record" when you complete those NCAA worksheets and the outside instructor as the tutor.

 

[snowbeltmom]

It boggles my mind too.

 

I swam Div I in college.  I think I might have missed a day or two a year (obviously didn't go to the week-long NCAA Championships).

 

One of the benefits of attending a service academy is that you can play your sport without missing class for practice.  They are rather adamant about that. No practice is scheduled to conflict with your classes.  The coach doesn't insist you choose an easier major. Their eye is on the prize at the end of the road:  graduation and commissioning.  Not that the NCAA had anything to contribute to that.

 

OTOH, if a swimmer, who is used to swimming 6 days a week all year round, goes to a Div III school and doesn't have out of season practice, how do they ever improve their times?

 

The Div III schools on my son's list all practice daily during the "off season."

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Unfortunately, with the current NCAA rules, it does not look as if she would be able to play for a college.  She homeschools and takes outside classes from teachers other than myself.  It does not seem to matter that those teachers have their doctorates or that the courses are rigorous

This irks me so much to hear homeschoolers on this board assume that the NCAA will not accept outside classes.  The NCAA is not the enemy of the authentic (for lack of a better word) homeschooler.  You have the ability to fill out the core course worksheets.  I included some syllabi with them.  Granted, ds had only 4 outside courses with private teachers, but there was no issue whatsoever.  Derek Owens, History at our House (no textbook!), Potter's School (oops that was Java and not part of the core courses), Greg Landry, Laurel Tree Tutorials.  If they have rigorous courses, you will be fine.  They probably know the decent providers.  Cripes, if you are worried, send exams along with the core course worksheets.  You have the opportunity to demonstrate mastery over the high school subjects.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This irks me so much to hear homeschoolers on this board assume that the NCAA will not accept outside classes.  The NCAA is not the enemy of the authentic (for lack of a better word) homeschooler.  You have the ability to fill out the core course worksheets.  I included some syllabi with them.  Granted, ds had only 4 outside courses with private teachers, but there was no issue whatsoever.  Derek Owens, History at our House (no textbook!), Potter's School, Laurel Tree Tutorials.  If they have rigorous courses, you will be fine.  They probably know the decent providers.  Cripes, if you are worried, send exams along with the core course worksheets.  You have the opportunity to demonstrate mastery over the high school subjects.

 

Sue,

 

With regards to the outside providers you list, were they individually NCAA approved? Or did you submit worksheets for them? Did you list yourself as teacher and them as support or something else?

[Sunshine State Sue]

With regards to the outside providers you list, were they individually NCAA approved? Or did you submit worksheets for them? Did you list yourself as teacher and them as support or something else?

I have no idea if they were NCAA approved or not, though I am sure that Scott Powell of HaoH would not jump through any hoops for an organization like the NCAA.  I submitted core course worksheets (and I am happy to email them to anyone who would like them - just PM me with your email address).  There were 4 places for names:  Teacher of Record, Curriculum Provider/Designer, Assessments Designed/Developed By, and Assessments Graded By.  I listed the outside teachers for the first 3.  I listed either the outside teacher or me for the last depending on the course.  I graded the history assignments based on a key provided by the teacher.

 

I imagine that the vast majority of these student-athletes who are admitted to college without being able to read/write have unscrupulous coaches and neglectful parents.  It must be easier to hide the student's deficiencies under the guise of homeschooling because fewer adults would come into contact with the student.  This is the kind of abuse that the NCAA is looking for, not conscientious  :blushing:  contentious parents like you and me who are doing our best to provide an average (or hopefully above average) high school education.

 

A great read is Play Their Hearts Out by George Dohrmann.  Part of this book shows the reality of educational neglect.

 

[MtnTeaching]

This irks me so much to hear homeschoolers on this board assume that the NCAA will not accept outside classes.  The NCAA is not the enemy of the authentic (for lack of a better word) homeschooler.  You have the ability to fill out the core course worksheets.  I included some syllabi with them.  Granted, ds had only 4 outside courses with private teachers, but there was no issue whatsoever.  Derek Owens, History at our House (no textbook!), Potter's School, Laurel Tree Tutorials.  If they have rigorous courses, you will be fine.  They probably know the decent providers.  Cripes, if you are worried, send exams along with the core course worksheets.  You have the opportunity to demonstrate mastery over the high school subjects.

 

Sue, I am sorry that it "irks" you that I was under this assumption.  Maybe I have not been as diligent at reading everything on the boards lately when it comes to NCAA and their arbitrary rules which seem to change at their whim.  The last I read, the NCAA was making it very difficult for homeschool students who have taken classes outside the home from schools or individuals that are not NCAA-approved.  This is a bummer if the student is in the spring of their senior year and they find out that a course has not been accepted.

 

This is what I read from the "Homeschool Success" website "Be Careful with Online Courses

While online courses are a great fit for many students, you will want to check to make sure they meet NCAA requirements. Over the years the NCAA has come to scrutinize online courses. There was concern some students were using online courses as a means to earn easy credits and get around eligibility guidelines. Even some well-known providers that have been popular with many homeschoolers are not accepted as eligible for NCAA credit.

 

There are many more such references on the web where homeschoolers have personally experienced problems with the NCAA and their rules regarding outside classes.  This is what I have based my understanding on, not on personal experience.

If you have managed to run their gauntlet and survived, then "well done you".  It is nice to know that someone has been able to do this.  It is nice to hear that a course from a smaller scale instructor such as Derek Owens was approved.  I assume that you signed the affidavit stating that another person other than yourself was the sole teacher in this instance and that the NCAA approved this.  This is good to hear and gives hope to those of us who are obviously under the false impression that the NCAA could just rip away the dreams of a hopeful athlete if they decide that a course taken outside the home is not "approved".

The question I have is "How is anyone to know for sure that an outside course they take today will be "approved" three years from now?  What if the Clearinghouse just decides the course is not approved? I have personally heard of this happening in regular ps high schools even for AP courses.  I am sorry if this post is a bit abrupt, but I am frustrated with the NCAA and their lording over teenagers who are working hard to fulfill their dreams of an education and the ability to play the sport they love while doing it.

[MtnTeaching]

Not to beat this to death since I am sure there are other threads out there that cover this but here's another quote from the AZCentral that bothered me.

 

NCAA eligibility for college sports can be a problem when it comes to online credits. Online courses are considered "non-traditional" and must meet certain requirements to be accepted. Last year, the NCAA adopted new rules for accepting credits for Division I and II college sports. Among the rules are that students must have had ongoing access to a teacher and the course must have a defined period for completion, such as six weeks or a semester.

As a result, the NCAA stopped accepting core credits from two K-12 online schools and Brigham Young University's and American School's online programs.

Read more here at AZCentral  "Online Credits are not Universally Accepted"

 

(Sorry Sebastian for making such a ruckus on your very nice informational thread.  I read the articles and I understand why the NCAA could and should be taking a closer look at some of the online classes.  I think one of the problems I have is that I cannot get rid of the nagging feeling that this is also a control issue, and even a money-making issue for them, as well.)

[snowbeltmom]

When the NCAA is approving kids with combined SATs of 400, this process is clearly a sham and nothing but a money maker for them.  I was surprised to read Sue's experience with the worksheets because her experience contradicts was I was told by an NCAA homeschooling rep last spring.  I wonder if the classes Sue's son took were grandfathered in since the changes were only introduced last year by the NCAA?

 

Regardless, based on the conversation I had last year with a homeschooling rep for the NCAA, I would not list an online course provider as the teacher of record on those worksheets.  I spoke about this last year, but I can't copy links on these boards, so I'll repeat it here: I was told last year that the AP Chemistry class my son took with ChemAdvantage would not be approved by the NCAA.  When I asked if I could submit my son's AP score of 5 and SAT II of 800 to prove that the class was outstanding, I was told that the NCAA was not concerned about the "educational outcome" of the class, they only cared about whether the online class had been approved. 

 

Fwiw, my 9th grader will probably be playing Div I.  :scared:

 

 I am making a separate transcript for the NCAA that only lists the required core courses, and I am listing myself as the teacher of record for everything since I am the one who assigns the final grade.  As you can probably tell from my multitude of posts, I have zero respect for this scummy organization, and I refuse to give them the power to reject an online course I chose for my kid simply because the online course provider refused to line the pockets of the NCAA. :rant:

Not to beat this to death since I am sure there are other threads out there that cover this but here's another quote from the AZCentral that bothered me.

 

NCAA eligibility for college sports can be a problem when it comes to online credits. Online courses are considered "non-traditional" and must meet certain requirements to be accepted. Last year, the NCAA adopted new rules for accepting credits for Division I and II college sports. Among the rules are that students must have had ongoing access to a teacher and the course must have a defined period for completion, such as six weeks or a semester.

As a result, the NCAA stopped accepting core credits from two K-12 online schools and Brigham Young University's and American School's online programs.

Read more here at AZCentral  "Online Credits are not Universally Accepted"

 

(Sorry Sebastian for making such a ruckus on your very nice informational thread.  I read the articles and I understand why the NCAA could and should be taking a closer look at some of the online classes.  I think one of the problems I have is that I cannot get rid of the nagging feeling that this is also a control issue, and even a money-making issue for them, as well.)

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I appreciate everyone's comments. I don't know if any of my kids will want to pursue sports in college. My swimmer thinks he might but I'm not thrilled with the idea of missing weeks worth of classes. (And I've also seen colleges close high performing swim and crew teams lately, so I'm very gunshy.)

 

I really don't know what to think of the eligibility review. On one hand there are clearly kids who are being passed along or even fraudulently marked as passing because they handle a ball well (funny how the scandals are never about the swim, crew or rifle team; but only about teams tha bring in tv time and money and prestige for the coaches). On the other hand the efforts to ferret out fraud don't match up well with homeschooling if you're not doing it all at home (which is ironic. The PhD teaching Latin without NCAA blessing counts for less than my teaching it with no background in Latin. Just based on how a form is filled out. The eligibility office recommendations for homeschoolers have shifted a lot, sometimes in unpredictable and contradictory ways.

 

I want to hear lots of people's experiences. There may be a road through for those with the sports skills. I also think forewarned is forearmed; knowing what might be required can help me pick between a and b.

 

I also want to share the outrageous stories because I think the whole system is corrupt.

[Sunshine State Sue]

This is what I read from the "Homeschool Success" website "Be Careful with Online Courses

While online courses are a great fit for many students, you will want to check to make sure they meet NCAA requirements. Over the years the NCAA has come to scrutinize online courses. There was concern some students were using online courses as a means to earn easy credits and get around eligibility guidelines. Even some well-known providers that have been popular with many homeschoolers are not accepted as eligible for NCAA credit.

 

Note that no "well-known providers that have been popular with many homeschoolers" are identified?  Why not?

 

There are many more such references on the web where homeschoolers have personally experienced problems with the NCAA and their rules regarding outside classes.  This is what I have based my understanding on, not on personal experience.

I only hang out here, so I don't have a reference of other websites.  I do remember someone commenting that there were discussions on the College Confidential boards about it and the overwhelming feeling was that the NCAA was not out to stop conscientious  :blushing:  contentious homeschoolers from playing college sports.

 

Trying to split up a quote is so difficult on this board!  I've been trying to cut out this part for a while now:

 

I assume that you signed the affidavit stating that another person other than yourself was the sole teacher in this instance and that the NCAA approved this.

I stated that the teachers taught the course because they did.

 

The question I have is "How is anyone to know for sure that an outside course they take today will be "approved" three years from now?

I encourage you to call the homeschool dept of the NCAA and discuss your dd's online courses with them.  I have always found them to be very reasonable.  I even emailed them samples of ds's history class in 8th grade and got it in writing that that it was acceptable.

 

I may not be back to this discussion for a bit.  We have company this week and I need to attend to them.

[snowbeltmom]

Based on my phone conversation with the NCAA last year, the following online classes my son took would not have been approved by the NCAA:

 

AoPS

Memoria Press

eIMACS

Chem Advantage

 

The only online provider on his transcript that would have been approved was Pennsylvania Homeschoolers.  Ironically, had I signed my son up through PAH for chemistry instead of signing up directly with Chem Advantage, my son's chemistry class would have been approved. 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Last year, the NCAA adopted new rules for accepting credits for Division I and II college sports. Among the rules are that students must have had ongoing access to a teacher and the course must have a defined period for completion, such as six weeks or a semester.

 

Are you using on online class that does not have ongoing access to a teacher or a defined period for completion? 

[Myra]

Sue -

You've been an invaluable resource to me as my son has navigated NCAA and college applications/interviews/meetings with coaches/etc.  Although my son does crew and men's crew is not "governed" by NCAA, the Division I colleges wanted the paperwork submitted for simplicity of having the same information in the same format available as other sports/atheletes to the coaches and colleges. We are impatiently waiting to hear about college acceptances and financial packets even though he has been "recruited" by several coaches.  I'm jealous because men's crew, unlike basketball, doesn't receive any early college notifications and must wait like all other students that are applying. But since you've been several steps "ahead" of me in this process, I have learned much from your posts and from contacting NCAA personally with the contact names you have posted.

 

Thanks,

Myra

[snowbeltmom]

Are you using on online class that does not have ongoing access to a teacher or a defined period for completion? 

 

Every single class that my son took that will not be approved by the NCAA had ongoing access to a teacher and a defined period for completion. 

 

IMO, the ONLY factor here is MONEY.   I am sure it is expensive for an online provider to go through the NCAA approval process.  Many of the online providers homeschoolers use are small entities when compared to K-12, Connections Academy, etc.  It is unrealistic to expect a small company such as Lukeion to have the funds to get the NCAA approval.

 

I lost what little respect I had for the NCAA after my phone conversation with them last year when the rep told me that the NCAA does not care about the "educational outcome" of an online class only whether the class is approved by the NCAA.  (It is mind boggling to think that with all the outside validation my son had for his chemistry class, that the NCAA would not approve it.)

 

I translate the statement the rep made to me to mean that the NCAA does not care about whether a student has learned anything after taking an online class.  The NCAA only cares that the online provider paid the $$$$ to get approved.  This philosophy is consistent with granting approval to a student with a combined score of 400 on the SAT.  To obtain that score, I think all the student has to do is fill out his personal information correctly. 

 

[MtnTeaching]

Are you using on online class that does not have ongoing access to a teacher or a defined period for completion? 

 

I am trying to think and I do not believe we have any courses like this.  I am confused by the article's wording, though.  They seemed to imply that the above comment was the reasoning behind why they stopped accepting courses from K12, Brigham Young, and American School.  I am more inclined to believe that they stopped accepting these courses due to some sort of "wrong doing", but I have no way of knowing that for sure.

 

I have a tendency to try and find courses that are the best fit for my kids.  For instance, last year for ds (if he were a hopeful in an NCAA sport - archery is not), I put together my own "English 10" from several different sources. 

Semester 1- a Greek and Latin root word course from Lukeion (his vocabulary)

Semester 2- a Grammar course from Lukeion

Three courses from Brave Writer throughout the year on essay writing and literary analysis paired with select topics from "Essentials in Writing 10" at home.

Year-long Socratic Discussion Literature Course with "Center for Lit"

 

(I only gave him credit for one course which encompassed all of these separate courses.  Looking at in now, I may have to go back and give him a bit more credit  :001_smile: .)

 

If I were to run into the same thing that snowbeltmom did, I could possibly have trouble with the classes from Lukeion, Brave Writer, and Center for Lit.  His English 10 (or as NCAA classifies it - English II) is definitely a "core course" that is required by the NCAA.  The combination of these classes gave him a very good base that allowed him to move right into AP English Language and Composition with Pennsylvania Homeschoolers this year.  I had hoped to do something similar with dd next year.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Every single class that my son took that will not be approved by the NCAA had ongoing access to a teacher and a defined period for completion. 

 

IMO, the ONLY factor here is MONEY.   I am sure it is expensive for an online provider to go through the NCAA approval process.  Many of the online providers homeschoolers use are small entities when compared to K-12, Connections Academy, etc.  It is unrealistic to expect a small company such as Lukeion to have the funds to get the NCAA approval.

 

I lost what little respect I had for the NCAA after my phone conversation with them last year when the rep told me that the NCAA does not care about the "educational outcome" of an online class only whether the class is approved by the NCAA.  (It is mind boggling to think that with all the outside validation my son had for his chemistry class, that the NCAA would not approve it.)

 

I translate the statement the rep made to me to mean that the NCAA does not care about whether a student has learned anything after taking an online class.  The NCAA only cares that the online provider paid the $$$$ to get approved.  This philosophy is consistent with granting approval to a student with a combined score of 400 on the SAT.  To obtain that score, I think all the student has to do is fill out his personal information correctly. 

 

 

As much as I'm not a fan of NCAA (both because of the hoop jumping they require and because I think that ultimately they continue to wave magical hands of forgiveness over a lot of egregious misbehavior), I've not yet seen evidence that a school has to pay to have their courses reviewed.  I found a presentation walking new schools through the document submission process and there was no mention of establishing an account or needing to pay.  (Interestingly, it did specify that after document submission, the school's courses would not be reviewed unless an NCAA member institution requested review for a current or former student.

 

Where there definitely is a cost is in the time and effort required for the school to collect and submit the documentation.  Smaller providers like Lukeion Project have a lot better uses of their time than to make submissions that may or may not ever be evaluated (and will be evaluated, not by someone with the background or experience to judge the quality of their Latin, Greek, literature or history courses; but rather by someone who is verifying administrivia and checking boxes).

[snowbeltmom]

I think the quote below may explain why Sue did not have any trouble getting her son's course work approved even though Sue's son took online classes with providers that are not approved by the NCAA.  It looks like the NCAA did grandfather in those students who took courses prior to the new NCAA guidelines.  It looks like the cutoff date was July 27, 2012.

 

 

Coursework from this program does not meet NCAA nontraditional core-course legislation. Coursework from students who enrolled in an Aventa course on or after July 27, 2012 cannot be used. Coursework from students enrolled in an Aventa course prior to July 27, 2012 will be reviewed individually. An individual review requires the production of student-specific and course-specific materials. This status impacts only coursework taken directly through Aventa (using Aventa instructors). Schools, districts and other programs that purchase curriculum through Aventa but do not use Aventa instructors may have their programs evaluated independently.

 

Here is the link to the website:  http://www.gennet.us/tl_providers.htm

 

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sebastian,

 

I wanted to say thank you for the links.  I just finished reading them.  Academics has always been more important to me than athletics, but I am just a girl and outnumbered in my household, so I feel like I have had to swim upstream for many years.  It paid off though.  I find this quote particularly sad.

 

Only 65 percent of African American basketball student-athletes graduated in 2013. There is a 25-percent gap between the graduation rates of white and black basketball student-athletes. Further, 21 of the 68 teams to compete in this year's NCAA basketball tournament had black graduation rates below 50 percent. Right here at our very own university, the University of California, Berkeley the graduation rate for black male basketball players in 2013 was only 33 percent.

 

[In The Great White North]

 

I wanted to say thank you for the links.  I just finished reading them.  Academics has always been more important to me than athletics, but I am just a girl and outnumbered in my household, so I feel like I have had to swim upstream for many years.  It paid off though.  I find this quote particularly sad.

 

Quote

Only 65 percent of African American basketball student-athletes graduated in 2013. There is a 25-percent gap between the graduation rates of white and black basketball student-athletes. Further, 21 of the 68 teams to compete in this year's NCAA basketball tournament had black graduation rates below 50 percent. Right here at our very own university, the University of California, Berkeley the graduation rate for black male basketball players in 2013 was only 33 percent.

The article doesn't really specify, but I wonder if they are talking about four-year graduation rates?  

 

A lot of big football money school are also big state universites, which usually don't even publicize a four-year graduation rate.  They've gone to a six-year graduation rate.  

 

[snowbeltmom]

As much as I'm not a fan of NCAA (both because of the hoop jumping they require and because I think that ultimately they continue to wave magical hands of forgiveness over a lot of egregious misbehavior), I've not yet seen evidence that a school has to pay to have their courses reviewed. 

 

I hope this is the case, and that the only fees the NCAA are getting are from the athletes themselves when they register with the NCAA.

 

[MtnTeaching]

Here's a decent article entitled,   "Does the NCAA Allow Online Courses or Competency-based Education?"    It answered a few questions I had regarding the quote I mentioned above about the "ongoing access to a teacher and the course must have a defined period of time for completion."

[swimmermom3]

Here's a decent article entitled,   "Does the NCAA Allow Online Courses or Competency-based Education?"    It answered a few questions I had regarding the quote I mentioned above about the "ongoing access to a teacher and the course must have a defined period of time for completion."

 

So Leslie, I am thinking that PA Homeschoolers AP Lang. course definitely fits those parameters except that we would need to take the weekly assignments and turn it into a syllabus with a timeline, unless Mrs. M. already has one we could use?

 

Side note: I couldn't believe the level of detail in the progress report or the amount of work she puts into the students feedback!

 

I figure with AoPS, one is okay either way because now the classes are accredited or if you just do the books then you are the teacher of record.

 

I must admit I am still a bit puzzled after what the NCAA told Snowbeltmom last year.

[MtnTeaching]

So Leslie, I am thinking that PA Homeschoolers AP Lang. course definitely fits those parameters except that we would need to take the weekly assignments and turn it into a syllabus with a timeline, unless Mrs. M. already has one we could use?  

 

Hi Lisa!  According to Snowbeltmom, PA Homeschoolers is already approved.  (I messed this multiquote ALL up, but above she stated " The only online provider on his transcript that would have been approved was Pennsylvania Homeschoolers.  Ironically, had I signed my son up through PAH for chemistry instead of signing up directly with Chem Advantage, my son's chemistry class would have been approved. " Maybe we could just call and see if they have had to run the gauntlet of the NCAA and see what the outcome was.

 

Side note: I couldn't believe the level of detail in the progress report or the amount of work she puts into the students feedback!   

 

I agree!  I was stunned at what was by far the best progress report I have ever witnessed!  She was complimentary where deserved and filled with advice where warranted.  Now, if we can all get past this next essay.  Skywalker is sweating it a bit!

 

I figure with AoPS, one is okay either way because now the classes are accredited or if you just do the books then you are the teacher of record.

 

It is mind boggling to me that AoPS would not pass muster with NCAA.  These guys are MIT, Yale, etc.  There is something seriously wrong with these people if they did not approve AoPS!

 

I must admit I am still a bit puzzled after what the NCAA told Snowbeltmom last year.

 

That is very worrying.  Unfortunately, the NCAA seems to be very arbitrary in its decision-making.  I wonder if it could boil down to "who you talk to at their offices" sometimes.  Is Sailor Dude thinking of pursuing something in college that the NCAA would have anything to do with?

 

[swimmermom3]

Sailor Dude used to be a Swimmer Dude - a serious one. I discovered last night after a high school meet against several of the guys he grew up racing against and beating, that he is still a serious swimmer at heart. I thought he had transitioned to sailing and was totally happy, but on the drive home he said he'd give a lot to be able to swim a strong 200 fly again. He'd asked me a while back to make sure he stays NCAA-eligible. Maybe he can swim Div. III? I don't know. Sailing doesn't have any scholarships from what I understand and he has only been doing it since the summer of 2011.

 

This thread, high school and collegiate sports and the price so many of us are willing to pay for success in them has been dancing around in my head all morning and is maybe a topic for another thread.

 

 

On a totally different note, I told my son about this thread and he casually mentioned how furious a fellow swimmer and classmate was when their Health 2 teacher announced she would be changing "0"s to "D" because she knew several of the students were involved in sports. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

[MysteryJen]

Just a pop in reminder that you only need to be NCAA eligible for DI and DII sports.

 

The NCAA makes my head spin and led me to be the teacher of record for all of my kids classes.  I also have looked at approved courses from private high schools in my area and have similar titles/use of textbook.  This is fine with dd1 who just wants all the i's dotted and t's crossed.

[Guest debcountry]

So, it would seem based on this forum, most of you are dealing with NCAA paperwork requirements.

Would you mind if I ask a question relating to successfully filling out their home school core course worksheets?

If anyone who has completed the NCAA home school core course worksheets how did you handle the section curriculum provider/designer?  I've read NCAA's explanation:

"If the course was taken through an outside program or school, or if the home school instructor used a pre-designed packaged curriuculum, that information should be listed in this field."

 

We have not used any outside program or school. So I assume it would expect you to put in the teacher's name, i.e. the parent in our case.

Just trying to translate what the pre-designed packaged curriculum really means.

Many course materials are sold as a set or you pick up parts of a set....sometimes you use them as they are sometimes you tweak them and even add to them...So how did you handle this?

I'm ready to put mine in the mail just pondering this snag...

 

Appreciate the thoughts and advice from  fellow NCAA bound athlete moms. 

Sometimes this process feels like being lost in a jungle.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So, it would seem based on this forum, most of you are dealing with NCAA paperwork requirements.

Would you mind if I ask a question relating to successfully filling out their home school core course worksheets?

If anyone who has completed the NCAA home school core course worksheets how did you handle the section curriculum provider/designer?  I've read NCAA's explanation:

"If the course was taken through an outside program or school, or if the home school instructor used a pre-designed packaged curriuculum, that information should be listed in this field."

 

We have not used any outside program or school. So I assume it would expect you to put in the teacher's name, i.e. the parent in our case.

Just trying to translate what the pre-designed packaged curriculum really means.

Many course materials are sold as a set or you pick up parts of a set....sometimes you use them as they are sometimes you tweak them and even add to them...So how did you handle this?

I'm ready to put mine in the mail just pondering this snag...

 

Appreciate the thoughts and advice from  fellow NCAA bound athlete moms. 

Sometimes this process feels like being lost in a jungle.

 

So I think where I am is if I pulled the course together, I am the person in charge. I didn't just tell the kids to open the box, shipped to us from some outside authority. It the case of the courses we did at home, I was the authority. Even with subjects where I had a schedule, I made adaptations, I did the grading, I supervised the labs.

 

If my kids were doing something like K12 where I was not actually in the loop, I might think differently.

 

For online courses, it will have to depend on the class and how much of the course is the basis for the grade I'm putting on the transcript.

[Sunshine State Sue]

how did you handle the section curriculum provider/designer?  I've read NCAA's explanation:

"If the course was taken through an outside program or school, or if the home school instructor used a pre-designed packaged curriuculum, that information should be listed in this field."

I used the publisher's name.  For English 9, we used Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings.  I used Home Scholar Books in that field.  For Geometry, we used Discovering Geometry.  I used Key Curriculum Press in that field.  I will add that I'm not terribly imaginative, and I basically just follow the directions...

 

I can understand Sebastian's pov as well.  I think either is fine.

 

HTH!  And welcome to the boards... :seeya:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I used the publisher's name. For English 9, we used Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings. I used Home Scholar Books in that field. For Geometry, we used Discovering Geometry. I used Key Curriculum Press in that field. I will add that I'm not terribly imaginative, and I basically just follow the directions...

 

I can understand Sebastian's pov as well. I think either is fine.

 

HTH! And welcome to the boards... :seeya:

This also makes sense to me.

I think what they are looking for are programs where students are at home but under the tutelage of an official somewhere else, be that an online course or a public school study at home program.

[Guest debcountry]

Hi and many thanks.

I've been working all day finishing up my final changes on the NCAA Core Course Worksheets.

I really appreciate the quick response everyone gave on my question.

Your replies helped calm my concerns and got me right back on track.

What a difference it makes when someone is willing to share experience or insight.

Thank you so much! And thanks for the welcome to the forum!

[Guest debcountry]

Hi Everyone!

We are officially approved for competition at NCAA Division II and I !!!!!

What a tremendous relief.  So it's on to college soccer.

Thank you for your support!

I did end up listing the provider/designer as the publisher in case anyone is still pondering that section of the core worksheets. 

Smiling in Virginia!

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Wonderful!  That was quick!  :hurray:

 

Thanks for letting us know.