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I'm so frustrated with writing and my 9th grader! I could really use some help figuring out what to do next.


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She's been working on WWS 1 for over a year now and it's still not done. She's about 3/4 of the way through it. There's no joy in it for her. She feels like she's doing the same thing over and over again. She's unhappy with the fact that there's no creative writing involved.

She's interested in writing, especially historical fiction.

 

I tried to schedule Fridays as creative writing day. I bought books that she expressed interest in to prompt her but she just kind of ignored that it had to get done. 

 

I encouraged her to put WWS aside for the month of November to do NaNoWriMo. We spent the last week of Oct reading and preparing for it. As soon as she found out that it wasn't the set up she expected, she quit. She didn't want to be part of the program and still somehow be able to write an awesome book by the end of the month. :)

 

She grew up on Primary Language Lessons and Intermediate Language Lessons. Looking back now, she says she realizes what a great fit that was for her. She wishes there was a high school curriculum like that. I have checked out Language Lessons for High School http://www.rainbowresource.com/proddtl.php?id=043894 but I keep hearing that it's very religious. We're Muslim and had no problem with PLL and ILL… She did one year of IEW Ancient History writing and liked that so-so. Grammar skills are very good, we'll probably always do it. Between Cozy Grammar, GwG, and Editor in Chief she enjoys it as much as one could hope. 

 

 

I have a few problems...

-She wants to be an amazing writer without being trained. :) I just keep sitting with her to work through the lessons and hope that maturity will catch up with her desires. How do I work with this personality?

 

-She is being dragged through WWS. Do I make her finish book1 come hell or high water?? Do I find something this week and make a long over due switch?? What do I switch to?

 

-I need to figure out what my main goals are for writing. What are the basic skills she should master this year? I felt like WWS would get us there… Where ever that is.  :lol: I trust SWB to give her a solid foundation. That's why I've made her stick with WWS this long. She may not like it, but one day she'd thank us. Oh Sigh… Did I mention I'm not a good writer? She'll definitely need something that walks us both through the work. 

 

Any thoughts? Links for curriculum I ought to check out? Advice??

 

 

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Just my two cents, but I would pick up the pace, double up lessons, axe some of the stupidity in WWS1 that is too young, and get her a creative writing curriculum to do some from each week.  Creative Writer isn't bad, and she might enjoy it.  Just bump up to book 2 or book 3.  Do it on Fridays and faster-paced lessons from WWS the rest of the week.

 

I did WWS1 last year with my dd, and that's how I did it, speeding it up.  Writing is actually pretty hard for my dd for a number of reasons, even though she writes well and enjoys it.  I determined, listening to feedback, that most of the complaints about WWS were that it drags out.  I decided that if we were going to do it, we were going to blaze through it SO FAST she wouldn't have time to realize the experience was awful!   :lol:   And seriously, there are some things like the copia exercises that really could be skipped with an older student, no problem-o.  And yes we doubled up lessons unless the task was really long.  

 

This year we've been doing Creative Writer 2, or at least we were till she got engrossed in a project.  I just ordered WWS2, and I think we're going to start that in January and fly through it while continuing CW once a week.  That's what they intended anyway, that you pair them to keep the child from going out of his gourd.  I don't have WWS2 in-hand yet (unless it's in one of my boxes I haven't opened yet, oops!) but I think we'll probably find a way to double up lessons.  Like I said, blazing fire, not death dirge.  Gotta burn through it.  Get radical and skip some.  We skipped the research project in WWS1 because dd was doing a National History Day project that was roughly the equivalent.  (Actually more than the equivalent, but who's quibbling?)  So get a little radical, pick up the pace, move on.

 

Oh, I also took a highlighter to the lessons to make sure she caught the jist of it.  There's a ton of text there, and I want her to spend time thinking and writing, not wading through that.  Might not suit someone else, but it was really helpful for us.

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If she's a high schooler, I don't see a need for a creative writing program unless she requests one for an elective credit in creative writing.  Even if she wants such a credit, she may advance better at this point by just writing, and then finding a person willing to be a critical reader -- preferably someone who enjoys reading her genre.

 

High schoolers need to learn how to make a statement, organize it logically, and defend it with a variety of evidences.  Personally, I think that is best done by just using ordinary high school topics she is already studying, processing them by her writing (essays with possibly letters to the editor, descriptions, and other typical college/career writing), and then having a reader do careful reading and give feedback on how well the piece is understood (probably you, but could be someone else).  I only suggest a "program" at this point if you see a particular weakness and find a program that addresses that particular weakness.  No need to work on things she's already mastered, since time is precious in high school.

 

Just another opinion,

Julie

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I've no firsthand experience with it, but I wonder if "Help for High School" by Julie Bogart from Bravewriter might be an option.  There is some discussion of it in this thread.

 

Literature & Composition for struggling students

 

Regards,

Kareni

I just went through the sample lesson and I like what I see. I'll show it to her in the morning. In the meantime I"ll be reading though all the info.

I've checked them out before… years ago. I think I passed because I thought it was a little vague for this daughter. She needs a lot of step by step instruction for assignments. Is it clear cut as far as "today you do XYZ"?

 

As I write this I'm realizing how much she's like that. If it's not spelled out for her she'll act like she's getting it done, puts it off, and then that night says "Oh, I didn't really get what I was supposed to do so I didn't get it done."

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Religion might be a problem, as the books are by a Catholic distributor, but the owner of Hillside Education wrote two English books to follow Intermediate Language Lessons - Lingua Mater 7 (for 7th/8th) and Lingua Mater Americana (for 8th/9th.)

I think this is what she'd like as far as the format goes, but it's too religious based off the three samples. Darn.

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Just my two cents, but I would pick up the pace, double up lessons, axe some of the stupidity in WWS1 that is too young, and get her a creative writing curriculum to do some from each week.  Creative Writer isn't bad, and she might enjoy it.  Just bump up to book 2 or book 3.  Do it on Fridays and faster-paced lessons from WWS the rest of the week.

 

I did WWS1 last year with my dd, and that's how I did it, speeding it up.  Writing is actually pretty hard for my dd for a number of reasons, even though she writes well and enjoys it.  I determined, listening to feedback, that most of the complaints about WWS were that it drags out.  I decided that if we were going to do it, we were going to blaze through it SO FAST she wouldn't have time to realize the experience was awful!   :lol:   And seriously, there are some things like the copia exercises that really could be skipped with an older student, no problem-o.  And yes we doubled up lessons unless the task was really long.  

 

This year we've been doing Creative Writer 2, or at least we were till she got engrossed in a project.  I just ordered WWS2, and I think we're going to start that in January and fly through it while continuing CW once a week.  That's what they intended anyway, that you pair them to keep the child from going out of his gourd.  I don't have WWS2 in-hand yet (unless it's in one of my boxes I haven't opened yet, oops!) but I think we'll probably find a way to double up lessons.  Like I said, blazing fire, not death dirge.  Gotta burn through it.  Get radical and skip some.  We skipped the research project in WWS1 because dd was doing a National History Day project that was roughly the equivalent.  (Actually more than the equivalent, but who's quibbling?)  So get a little radical, pick up the pace, move on.

 

Oh, I also took a highlighter to the lessons to make sure she caught the jist of it.  There's a ton of text there, and I want her to spend time thinking and writing, not wading through that.  Might not suit someone else, but it was really helpful for us.

This reminds me of when I posted a panic-y History Odyssey question last year. A few WTMers had to talk some sense into me and remind me that I rule the curriculum, the curriculum doesn't rule me.  :tongue_smilie: If I stick with WWS, even just for book 1, this is how it has to happen. 

Thanks!

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If she's a high schooler, I don't see a need for a creative writing program unless she requests one for an elective credit in creative writing.  Even if she wants such a credit, she may advance better at this point by just writing, and then finding a person willing to be a critical reader -- preferably someone who enjoys reading her genre.

 

High schoolers need to learn how to make a statement, organize it logically, and defend it with a variety of evidences.  Personally, I think that is best done by just using ordinary high school topics she is already studying, processing them by her writing (essays with possibly letters to the editor, descriptions, and other typical college/career writing), and then having a reader do careful reading and give feedback on how well the piece is understood (probably you, but could be someone else).  I only suggest a "program" at this point if you see a particular weakness and find a program that addresses that particular weakness.  No need to work on things she's already mastered, since time is precious in high school.

 

Just another opinion,

Julie

Thank you Julie, I appreciate your post.

I'm going to be thinking about your answer for the rest of the the night, I just know it. :)

 

 

Her grandfather would be more than happy to work with her. My immediate fears would be… let's just say I've typed and erased a lot of different things right here.  :tongue_smilie:

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 She needs a lot of step by step instruction for assignments. Is it clear cut as far as "today you do XYZ"?

 

As I write this I'm realizing how much she's like that. If it's not spelled out for her she'll act like she's getting it done, puts it off, and then that night says "Oh, I didn't really get what I was supposed to do so I didn't get it done."

 

This might be the real reason it's not getting done.  That's another good reason to go through the lessons with a highlighter and catch the most important things.  That way you KNOW she knows what to do and she can get in there and get it done.  I used one color for however many lessons I planned her to do in a day.  So if days 2 and 3 of a week were to be done in a day per my planning, then I'd highlight them in blue.  Then on her checklist it would say WWS blue.  Totally clear, totally obvious.  I never highlighted more than a week ahead, so on Sunday sit down and highlight and then make her checklist.  CW (Creative Writer) is also very clear.  For that it was a matter of looking at the length of the challenge exercise to determine if she could do that all in one day or needed two (one for the base lesson, a 2nd for the challenge).

 

Her grandfather would be more than happy to work with her. My immediate fears would be… let's just say I've typed and erased a lot of different things right here.  :tongue_smilie:

I think feedback, interaction, accountability is all great.  A grandpa is not in a position to provide STRUCTURE.  Structure is what makes the tasks clear and definable.  Also, if she's someone who tends to need a lot of structure, she may not be ready to do those argumentative papers Julie described or may need a LOT of structure to make that happen.  You might find it helpful to use Inspiration software with her and something like Jensen's Format Writing if you want to go directly into writing assignments based on her school work.  It's a choice.  I'm just saying make sure you come behind with the structure and clear steps and expectations so it doesn't fall apart.  I haven't used IEW, but it would work for that.  

 

Btw, many kids who have issues with structure (but are very creative) seem to blossom with logical writing around 16, from what I've been told and seen watching people.  They need to be thinking, analyzing, and supporting positions, and they need to be writing, but they don't necessarily have to do those things together.  I've left them separate for this year, and based on what I'm seeing watching dd we'll probably ramp up into more argumentative stuff next year.  For this year, I've kept the analysis separate from writing, and we use analytical response logs, discussions, etc.  

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Yes, seconding the suggestion to take a look at Bravewriter, specifically the following printed materials:

 

Help for High School - exploratory and expository essays with insight and creative pre-essay exercises, written to the student, clear instructions

Boomerang - literature with dictation/copywork and Think/Write pieces

Bravewriter...goes to the movies

Freewriting Frenzy (if still available)

Daily Writing Tips (new pdf)

 

We've been using Julie's materials for eight years, and they have worked well with all of our children - both the creative and the just-give-me-the-facts writers.

 

If you can afford Bravewriter classes, so much the better.  The instructor input is excellent.

 

 

 

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I always love OhE's advice, and I agree that if you blaze through WWS, it could work. She should get what she needs that way. At the same time, I would be concerned with her becoming more adverse to writing by using something that she really hates. I don't know if it's just a slog or if she really hates it. 

 

Have you ever looked at Jump In? It's so painless. The author (Sharon Watson?) also has a high school writing book that you may have to google to find but it would probably do the same thing, only take it further. Jump In has some religious content but nothing that can't be easily skipped from what I remember. If you looked at Jump In and think it would work, you could try it, and then follow it up with the high school level book, or just do the high school book.

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Elizabeth...How did you double up?  Did you do Day 1 and 2 on one day or what?  Just trying to figure this one out. 

 

Holly

.  I determined, listening to feedback, that most of the complaints about WWS were that it drags out.  I decided that if we were going to do it, we were going to blaze through it SO FAST she wouldn't have time to realize the experience was awful!   :lol:   And seriously, there are some things like the copia exercises that really could be skipped with an older student, no problem-o.  And yes we doubled up lessons unless the task was really long.  

 

 

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Elizabeth...How did you double up?  Did you do Day 1 and 2 on one day or what?  Just trying to figure this one out. 

 

Holly

Nothing fancy.  I got out my box of highlighters and started highlighting the most important bits of day 1 that I wanted to make sure she caught.  When Mama Gut knew that would take her x amount of time and it was 1/2 what I had allotted for the day for writing, I kept on going in that same color with the day 2.  New color and start highlighting day 3, and if that seemed short for her kept going to day 4, and so on.  So it wasn't really a pattern, more just looking at it and knowing which would combine and which things would take her longer. 

 

Remember I had already decided to be draconian, so in my mind anything in the range of 45 min to 1 1/2 hours was an acceptable amount of work, as my intention was to fly through it.  I also based this, not only on the ditch stories I was seeing from WWS1 users but also from some comments someone made in one of my SN/struggling writers threads ages ago, where she commented that her writing never really took off until she was FORCED to do a lot of it with a really boring law job.  She had this task she had to do OVER AND OVER and it pushed her over and made things click in her brain.  It's a pretty common therapy technique to get things right at the edge of what they can do and then do a LOT of it.  So I felt that's what I was doing, taking something I knew was right at the edge of what she could do, not out of reach, and then creating the stretch by doing a lot more than a normal pace.  It was good for her and worked out well in our case.  We wouldn't necessarily keep that pace up year-round, but for the time we spent it was good.  It got us through the jist of WWS1 (we skipped the very end because we did a comparable but different project) and built in her this ability to sit down and crank it out.

 

So I don't know, my two cents is don't be afraid of it.  If you make the space in their day, it can be a really good technique to do more, not less.

 

So to get back to your original question, yes usually days 1 and 2 together, 3 and 4 together, 5 by itself.  But I just went by my gut when I looked at the lessons while highlighting.  When you're willing to spend up to 1 1/2 hours a day (which you can with an older student), you can up the amount you're assigning.

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Another suggestion, if you need one :>  We're doing Hewitt Lightning Literature alongside WWS this year.  I agree that WWS is repetitive.  The writing assignments in LL tend to be more along the lines of creative writing.  

 

We're also looking at Bravewriter Help for High School for next year.

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At that age, my children needed a specific list of steps explaining what exactly I meant by "do" a subject.  For an assignment of read pg 67-69 and do the rough draft of the assigned essay, it might look like this:

 

Read page 67-69

Underline the topic sentence in each paragarph

Read the directions for the assignment

Come tell me what it is you are supposed to do so I can check and make sure you understand

Write a list of things you want to include in the essay

Put the list in the order

Break the list into paragraphs

Show me the list

Fix the list

Show me again

Find your laptop and open a new document in Word

Put your name, the subject, and the date at the top of the document

Save the document in your writing folder with a name that makes sense and  with draft 1 added to it

Write the paragraphs, saving after each with a new number

Show me

Fix the paragraphs, saving after each with a new number

Show me

Email me your rough draft for safety

 

I insisted they they physically CROSS OFF EACH ITEM WHEN IT WAS DONE.  It seemed utterly stupid to have to spell it all out for them at that age and it took time and effort on my part, but that is what it took for them to get things done.  It didn't matter if there were nice specific steps in the curriculum or if they were working with no curriculum.  It didn't matter if they wanted to do it or they didn't want to do it.

 

Mine didn't really learn to write until I made them do LOTS of it.  Nice gentle steps didn't really work.  Writing seems to be one of those vicious hump things - child is bad at writing because child is too slow at writing to write enough to get good at writing but until child is good at writing child is going to be slow because child hasn't written very much.  I didn't try to teach mine creative writing.  I left them to figure that out on their own.  I just tried to teach enough writing that they would be able to take advantage of outside writing classes (Bravewriter and community college).

 

If I'd had one that really wanted to do creative writing, I would have hunted around to find a mentor who would read and offer criticism and suggestions.  I would have done what I did with other independent projects - scheduled time during the school day for them to work on it and had them work someplace visible so I could remind them to stay focused on that task.  (Later, mine went off and did their projects on their own, but not at first.)

 

The problem with writing curriculums is that they are written to ALL students.  Your particular student might know 80% of the material but be miserable at doing 20% of it.  What your student needs is to spend all their time working on that 20%.  If that 20% doesn't show up until May, you have a problem.  I don't have any good solutions to this problem.  I wound up learning a lot more about writing than I really wanted to in order to teach it. : )

 

Nan

 

 

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Sorry it took so long for me to come back and respond! I've been sick as a dog. 

It did give me a chance to think through all of this though, check out the provided links, and have a good ol hash it out with a friend who really knows my kid and WWS.  

 

I've decided to stick with it. In the end, I think WWS is going to give my daughter what I'm looking for. There's something nice about my daughter and I realizing together that we can and will get through this tough book and that it's going to be totally worth it. 

 

In the hopes that there will be four levels published, we're going to tackle one level per year through high school. When I told my daughter that and how that now means she's now a bit ahead this year (which made her face light up) everything suddenly felt much more manageable. How does this stuff get so emotional??  :tongue_smilie: We've made a great game plan. 

 

I know the age/grade for WWS is younger than HS, but this is challenging work for her, she needs the hand holding (and so do I.)

 

We can always change our minds in the summer, but I doubt it. I'll keep supplementing with fun stuff.

 

Thanks everyone! 

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