For former MFW users who now use TOG or other classical/unit-based programs...

[hlee]

Hi everyone,

 

I am a four-year MFW user, starting with Adventures and now we are in Exp-1850. I have a 6th grader, a 3rd grader, and a 1st grader doing MFW-1st right now. And I'm feeling for the first time like MFW isn't working for us.

 

The issues:

 

--I want to do with all three boys together somehow, but the age range makes this difficult. I thought I could include my youngest into some of the science reading/activities and perhaps some of the history, but it hasn't worked out. His attention span isn't there.

 

--History read-aloud time has become challenging because 1) my eldest is a visual learner so he would rather just read everything on his own; 2) my second son is a kinesthetic learner and sitting and listening isn't his style, either. 

 

--I end up foregoing the assigned 2nd/3rd grade supplement for this year because there just isn't time, so my 3rd grader rarely gets to experience age-appropriate activities in history and science.

 

--We get behind on read-alouds as a result of it not being a favorite activity of my kids. As much as I wish I could sit and read aloud to them for hours, it is just not holding their attention and it's making history a chore for them and for me.

 

So....help??? I have appreciated MFW overall through the years, but I'm feeling like it's not working as much for me as it did in past years. If you have made a switch from MFW to something else, say TOG which intrigues me a bit or anything else, I would love to hear your thoughts about what prompted you to make the switch and how it has worked out for you.

 

Thanks in advance for your input!

[LAmom]

:bigear: I'm interested in any responses you get.  

[cbollin]

Are you interested in hearing any practical tips on how to use EX1850 with that age range/span with the problems you've run into?   I felt like a lot of what you experienced is similar to some stuff I experienced that year.  But in my case it was EX1850, in 5th, 2nd and special needs preschooler.   and then 1850MOD in 6th and 3rd and youngest in there somewhere who couldn't be included...

 

I've been there, got through the harder parts and have some ideas.. is that any conversation you'd like to hear?

[hlee]

Absolutely, would welcome ideas on how to make it work if possible, but also open to checking out other programs, too...feel free to offer your wisdom and experience!

[KeriJ]

Have you looked at Simply Charlotte Mason?  They have history/geography/Bible plans for K-12. We are using it this year for those subjects.  I've just geared it for my middle and beefed it up with more independent work for my older.  It is simple enough that it left me time for reading to my K'er on his level as well.  We are doing the Middle Ages module, and there book suggestions for all ages.  I did the read-alouds  from the youngest list and had my 5th grader read others independently.  

 

There's not a lot of extras or projects built in, but they do have suggestions on their website, making it optional. (I like that since we are more of a reading family as opposed to a project family)  We added some memory songs and the Draw and Write through History books.  

 

It's also been really easy to substitute books when I needed to.  You can map it out yourself, or buy an inexpensive guide.  I bought the guide, but use it loosely as just that: a guide.  We've really enjoyed these subjects this year as a family!

[KeriJ]

just wanted to add that read alouds geared to my youngers/middles has really worked well.  My oldest really enjoys listening in, and it makes her independent reading come to life more as she hears the material from a different perspective.

[cbollin]

I just re-read your situation.., I realized my situation wasn't all that much like yours, so my experiences aren't going to help at all.  oops.  sorry about that.

[Donna A.]

"Absolutely, would welcome ideas on how to make it work if possible, but also open to checking out other programs, too...feel free to offer your wisdom and experience!"

 

Okay, I'll bite. ;)

 

 

"--I want to do with all three boys together somehow, but the age range makes this difficult. I thought I could include my youngest into some of the science reading/activities and perhaps some of the history, but it hasn't worked out. His attention span isn't there."

 

Would the 1st grader's attention span be there if you were using TOG, which is even more time-intensive and "classical" than MFW?  Are you using the younger child supplement package?  Are you doing any of the hands-on activities?  Age-appropriate books or videos from Book Basket?  Coloring pages or notebooking pages for him to color while you read aloud?  Nature walks? 

 

As a 1st grader, it's pretty normal for him to have a low attention span, especially being a boy.  Pick what will interest him and let the rest go.  Are you doing MFW 1st grade with him, by chance?  Is he reading yet on his own?

 

 

"--History read-aloud time has become challenging because 1) my eldest is a visual learner so he would rather just read everything on his own; 2) my second son is a kinesthetic learner and sitting and listening isn't his style, either. "

 

A few things you can do here.... IF you want to:

 

-- Oldest can have his own copy of the books to follow along with his own eyes while you read.

-- Oldest can sit next to you in order to see the pages while you read.

-- Oldest can do the reading aloud.  (At our house, everyone who CAN read, does.  My girls would take turns when they were all elementary and we were schooling together.  Note the age differences in my signature line.)

-- Second son can work on his notebooking page or a coloring page, play with play-dough, stack blocks, drive Hotwheel cars across the floor, or whatever might keep his hands busy while you read.  And again, he can take turns reading aloud, too, while sitting right next to you.  This will be good reading practice for him.  Some kids actually do listen and process better if they can keep their hands busy while listening. 

 

Then, after the main reading assigned for the day is finished, let each of the kids take a book at his own level (from Book Basket, assuming you're using this option), choosing a book that's on-topic with the topic being covered that day, and go read it on their own.  Then they can narrate back to you what they read.  Are you having them do oral narrations after the readings?

 

 

"--I end up foregoing the assigned 2nd/3rd grade supplement for this year because there just isn't time, so my 3rd grader rarely gets to experience age-appropriate activities in history and science."

 

If you have a 3rd and 1st grader, then you should be using the 2nd/3rd grade supplement..... OR at least getting books (and videos) from Book Basket which are age-appropriate for them.   This part really isn't any different than what you'll find in TOG, which has age-appropriate books and activities assigned for each of those grade levels, as well.  If you aren't doing this, then that would be why you've having difficulties keeping the younger kids engaged.  You would have to do this in TOG or another program, as well.  Even if you were using something like HOD or textbooks or SL (specific level programs for each child), you'd have to make TIME to insure that each child is doing all of their own readings and assignments at their own level.  I don't think switching programs is going to help the time issue if you aren't already using the materials designated for each level, kwim?  In fact, a different program may even make it worse. 

 

 

"--We get behind on read-alouds as a result of it not being a favorite activity of my kids. As much as I wish I could sit and read aloud to them for hours, it is just not holding their attention and it's making history a chore for them and for me."

 

For hours?  There's usually only one read-aloud assigned each week, in addition to the core subject books to be read in history, science, and Bible.  I'm confused about this one. 

 

 

"So....help??? I have appreciated MFW overall through the years, but I'm feeling like it's not working as much for me as it did in past years. If you have made a switch from MFW to something else, say TOG which intrigues me a bit or anything else, I would love to hear your thoughts about what prompted you to make the switch and how it has worked out for you."

 

I would look carefully at the TIME that other programs are taking families with multiple children.  You mentioned a time issue more than once in your OP, so this may be an even worse problem in another program.  Especially TOG!  The moms I know IRL who are using TOG really ARE spending *hours* a day getting it done... and it only gets worse as the children get older, especially in the Logic stage and beyond. :001_unsure:

 

Do you have a schedule in place, or some sort of routine?  Is everyone getting the sleep they need at night?  Are they allowed to play or watch television before starting school for the day?  I know that this will cause a serious distraction and uncooperative attitude in my youngest dd, because once she starts watching TV or playing, that's all she wants to do and hates being pulled away from it to do school.  How about MOM?  Are you getting things started early in the day and being efficient so that you can get things done?  There have been seasons at our house where *I* was the one who got involved in other stuff before starting school, so *I* am the problem in not getting things done. :blushing:   

 

Do you have a lot of outside activities that are putting a time pressure on you?  Could it be something that you're feeling as a result of other issues, and not the curriculum itself? 

 

I would suggest going back to re-read Marie's teaching notes and scheduling tips at the front of the manual and go from there if you really want to make it work.  Or give them a call at the office.  But I see several things in your post that you're not doing which are either scheduled or recommended for the ages you've got....  ;)  Maybe try that first, before doing a complete switch?

 

 

[Amy M]

Well, I haven't been there done that yet, but I think I remember someone else on these forums saying that EX1850 didn't work so well for them for the same reason of the age gaps she had, etc. I think she went with Veritas Press. But it seems to me that any program you use might still have similar issues, unless it didn't require as much. I think TOG would take more time, just my opinion. What if you combine your 1st and 3rd grader for history, etc. with the 2nd/3rd supplement, and had the older read his stuff more on his own? That way you could at least combine the lower two, and maybe do projects all together. I'm starting ADV in February with a 3rd and 1st grader, so that might be similar.

[cbollin]

I admit I have a massive headache while typing this.  I hope it makes sense.   If any of it applies, I hope it helps. if it doesn't..  that's good too.

 

I used mfw.. but I didn't try to read/teach from the books while my children were sitting together.  I had to give that dream up when middle gal was special needs and youngest on autism spectrum.....  anyway...  often to get my day done in EX1850 and 1850MOD (which were both plenty academic for my very academically strong oldest child), I would start 3R's learning with youngest, while middle and oldest did some indepenent work.  Then, youngest had enough for a while.. I'd get middle gal and do her 3r's.   Tired from that about 30 minutes one on one.....   she'd go play.  I'd do the mfw stuff with oldest at her level.   Then, because that helped me to be really familiar with the material, I could then teach it to middle, and then do younger supplement stuff with her.

 

it kept things moving all morning in a nice routine.  everyone got time with me...   afternoons were times to work on projects, dance class, etc....   play with youngest. and finish any writing stuff.  read alouds got moved to evenings as bed time reading or something to do together.

 

one of those years, either ex1850 or 1850MOD, I had a dental issue and talking was difficult for long periods of time. I was happy if I had physical ability to talk for 15 minutes and read out loud.  So, read alouds were moved to evening.   Dad did one set. I did the other.   But, I never found MFW to be hours of out loud reading....  it was not possible for me to do that those years.  but we got the grid done.  I wasn't adding tons to the program.  and I used their recommendations for lang arts and math too.  but reading out loud time in MFW.. is not hours a day.   are you thinking you need to read everything to them?   Get some audio books then.

 

 

basically...  I used one manual to teach oldest and middle.... I didn't always teach them exactly at the same time due to their brain function, and personalities. Many of the things that Donna suggested with books, and reading are also teaching techniques that I used.   I would have done those teaching techniques no matter what curriculum materials I used.

 

take from my experience what can be applied even if the situation was not exactly like yours.    It may be the case that it is not use a different program, but rather give yourself permission to teach in ways that fit your needs vs. some ideal that you (me, really on that)..  wished I could have done.

 

hope you find what's a good fit.

 

[TxMama]

I found myself in a similar situation last year. I didn't switch to TOG but did "jump ship" for a few months to try something other than MFW. It did help me to see that the problem wasn't MFW but just a byproduct of my own family dynamics. I lasted about 2 months before returning to MFW.

 

When my youngest was in MFW 1, it was just easier to keep her in MFW 1st since her attention span just wasn't there. There was no expectation that she participate in the cycle. 

 

This has been the first year that I have been able to successfully combine the kids in content subjects (History, science, etc.). I do allow my younger child to not participate in some of the history readings such as Streams. I suspect that next year as a 4th grader she will be able to fully participate in everything. I still teach skill subjects separately (LA, math, etc.). For my family, it is just so much easier to keep them separate for skill subjects.

 

Read alouds happen either during lunch (my active child is able to pay attention when busy eating) or bedtime. My older child prefers audio books. I take advantage of this preference whenever possible!

 

 I completely ignore the suggested schedule at the beginning of the manual. We are not the family that is going to be able to get all children done with one subject during one 20 minute time period. That is OK. The benefits of the grid is the time saved trying to write my own plan for each year.

 

I think if I were in your situation, I would let the eldest child  read on his own and then read the 2nd/3rd supplements during lunchtime or at bedtime with the younger kids.

 

Best of luck!

 

[Kathryn]

I have no experience with MFW, but wanted to comment as a TOG user. I spend almost no time at all. I do my planning before the school year. I have a list of books to order from the library by week. On the weekends, I order the books a week in advance and look over next week's teacher notes. On Monday, I introduce the week and we do any map work. Any reading I do to him, I try to get done Monday or Tuesday and it takes maybe 30 minutes total. Then, he does his assigned reading and any activity sheets throughout the week. On Friday, we do craft/art, timeline, and talk about what he's learned during the week while he does his art.

[Donna A.]

I have no experience with MFW, but wanted to comment as a TOG user. I spend almost no time at all. I do my planning before the school year. I have a list of books to order from the library by week. On the weekends, I order the books a week in advance and look over next week's teacher notes. On Monday, I introduce the week and we do any map work. Any reading I do to him, I try to get done Monday or Tuesday and it takes maybe 30 minutes total. Then, he does his assigned reading and any activity sheets throughout the week. On Friday, we do craft/art, timeline, and talk about what he's learned during the week while he does his art.

 

Just to give some perspective over the long term, though, since your oldest is only 8....  your advance reading, prep time, and followup discussion time will increase exponentially as they get older. :unsure:   I do not use TOG, but I have three very good friends IRL who do, and they all struggle with this.  One family's four children are currently ages 8 thru 19 (her load has eased up quite a bit since oldest graduated, so she currently has only three being homeschooled, and it's still tough for her to get to everything).  One family's three school-aged children are ages 12 thru 18, and she has the same problem.... time.  And the third family has four children ages 4 thru 13 -- she's not even doing much with the youngest yet -- and she's looking at other options for her oldest for high school.  The amount of reading, studying, and followup discussion required for these moms with older kids and teens takes up FAR more time than I've ever needed to do for MFW, whether in the elementary years when I was schooling them all together, or at the high school level when my olders are working almost entirely independently. 

 

I actually don't think TOG and MFW are that far apart in terms of either mom's prep time or actual teaching time during the grammar stage.  At the high school level, though, the MFW manuals are written directly to the student, with once-a-week meetings scheduled with the parent.  Also, the hands-on activities go away, as MFW high school is primarily reading and writing, and the student is doing more hands-on work in other areas such as science labs, electives, chores, etc.

 

I do think that the Logic stage can be hard to teach in MFW because Mom has to adapt the curriculum more for that age, and there can be BIG differences from one 13yo to the next ... but the tools are there for her to do so, as far as the academic side of it is concerned.  So much *emotional* stuff is also going on at this age (11 or 12 to 14 or so) that that adds another element of training, guiding, mentoring, counseling, discipling, disciplining, or whatever you want to call it.  Or all of the above, LOL.  So that can play into the "school time" struggles, as well.  That's not *usually* a curriculum problem, though. 

 

And for some kids, it might also mean keeping history "light" in 7th and 8th grade so that Mom and her adolescent can concentrate more on other problem areas before high school... some of which may be academic (math or writing skills, for example), and some of which are emotional and spiritual.  For these reasons, Mom might not want or need to adapt or "beef up" the curriculum at ALL.

 

Sometimes the most efficient (and successful) thing to do is to just start at the top of the grid and work your way down each day.  Don't over-think it.  Don't stress about whether it's "enough".  Let time and maturity -- and prayer -- do their work. ;)

[Kathryn]

OP does not have high schoolers. And I'm well aware of what is required in the high school years time-wise. I know many TOG users with high schoolers and none do more than what they did when their children were younger. The time is just spent differently. Instead of reading to the child through the week or doing crafts, the time is spent at the end of the week discussing.

[Donna A.]

OP does not have high schoolers. And I'm well aware of what is required in the high school years time-wise. I know many TOG users with high schoolers and none do more than what they did when their children were younger. The time is just spent differently. Instead of reading to the child through the week or doing crafts, the time is spent at the end of the week discussing.

 

I understand that she doesn't have high schoolers now, but she will.  Her oldest is a 6th grader, and high school comes WAY too fast! :scared:   I wish I had known a little better what to expect between 6th and 9th grades when my oldest was a 6th grader. :crying:

 

If your TOG friends with high schoolers aren't spending any more time on it than they did in the grammar stage, then either your friends are doing something wrong, or mine are!  LOL.  Seriously, I was just sharing what I hear my friends discussing around the lunch table on Sunday afternoons.  They ARE struggling with the time factor, and I brought it up not to attack TOG, but to point out that the time issue -- which the OP mentions as one reason for looking at other options -- may not be any less with a different program.  I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking TOG... or you.  I really wasn't. :001_smile:

 

I hope the OP comes back to weigh in on some of the suggestions and share what she's thinking. :)

[Shellydon]

I have no experience with MFW, but wanted to comment as a TOG user. I spend almost no time at all. I do my planning before the school year. I have a list of books to order from the library by week. On the weekends, I order the books a week in advance and look over next week's teacher notes. On Monday, I introduce the week and we do any map work. Any reading I do to him, I try to get done Monday or Tuesday and it takes maybe 30 minutes total. Then, he does his assigned reading and any activity sheets throughout the week. On Friday, we do craft/art, timeline, and talk about what he's learned during the week while he does his art.

 

I will say that is really unusual.  TOG is by far the most time intensive program I've ever used or looked at using.  You would definitely be the exception and not the rule as far as TOG users.  TOGs weekly schedule is 30 or more pages for each week.  It is a lot of work and time.  

 

OP --  I have 4 kids close in ages to yours.  I find that I am doing school 5-6 hours each day.  I anticipate that going up slightly next year.

 

 

ETA -- here is a blog post from TOG users that talk about the extensive time commitment http://www.mamaslearningcorner.com/planning-tapestry-of-grace-lower-grammar/

[Kathryn]

Most people I know who use TOG have their children working fairly independently, similar to how this WTM poster describes on her blog in the third post down about Tapestry: http://joyinthejourneyhh.blogspot.com/search/label/Tapestry%20of%20Grace

 

And here's a thread from the boards here when someone asked how independent TOG is: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/434752-how-independent-is-tog

[Shellydon]

Most people I know who use TOG have their children working fairly independently, similar to how this WTM poster describes on her blog in the third post down about Tapestry: http://joyinthejourneyhh.blogspot.com/search/label/Tapestry%20of%20Grace

 

And here's a thread from the boards here when someone asked how independent TOG is: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/434752-how-independent-is-tog

 

The WTM link talks about doing several hours of work in discussion questions with your student each week and that it takes years to become independent. ??  I am not wanting to argue with you, I am just letting you know that your experience  of  TOG taking 30 minutes a week as being quite unusual.  The OP needs to know that if she is considering a switch.

[Kathryn]

I absolutely did not say that I spend 30 minutes total a week. I said the reading I do to him takes about that long. I also said I introduce the week and do mapping, and at the end of the week, we discuss, do timeline work, and art/craft. I agree the OP needs to know what she'd be getting into, so perhaps she should hear from people who actually use it. Some people can't handle TOG, it's not the way their brain works and it overwhelms them. Some people can. People are different.

[TracyP]

I agree with Kathryn. My oldest is 10 and the time commitment for *me* is minimal. My children are the ones who do the reading. ;) We meet for a preview at the beginning of the week and a discussion/craft at the end of the week. I know that some do find TOG to be time consuming, but not everyone does. :)

[Momofeat]

I used MFW 5 years before switching to TOG when my oldest dd was in 7th grade. We participate in a TOG co-op, and if it weren't for the co-op, I would have returned to MFW. I found it much easier to group my dc with MFW--and I miss having them work together. However, we have decided that the co-op offers social opportunities my dc sorely need, and my high school student works better in small groups as opposed to one-on-one with me, so the co-op has made TOG worth it.

 

Several previous posters have said things that I have found helpful when teaching my dc, who also span 6 years. The youngest is a boy who still, at age 7, is not much of a reader, while my 2 older girls were prolific readers by age 6. My oldest dd cannot listen to a book without busy hands, but she understood concepts way above the other two. With TOG, she is very independent, and her discussions take place at co-op. If we miss a week of co-op, I'm afraid we usually skip the discussions. Why? Because it's not much of a discussion with just the 2 of us--and it takes several hours to actually have the discussion.

 

When we did MFW, she read some of the history books to herself, and then others I read to all 3 of them. I often read while they worked on projects, drew, or ate lunch. When ds was young, he often sat in on the readings because he was present during lunch, but I didn't make him participate. Instead, I used MFW K with him. He still picked up a lot of what the older girls did, and he often did the hands-on projects. I did not use the 2nd/3rd grade supplements, but I did use the supplements for older students. We used the book basket extensively.

 

With TOG, getting in all the reading is still challenging, especially since my ds is not reading independently yet. I often read UG history assignments to my younger dd & my ds together, and then have my younger dd read the LG history assignments to ds. (He's in both UG and LG history at co-op. I realize that may seem strange, but he loves it, and it's working for us this year.) I'm afraid that we don't ever complete the hands-on assignments. I am not crafty at all. The hands-on assignments in MFW were much more on my level, and often involved cooking. THAT I could do! 

 

 

 

 

[hlee]

Wow! The last time I checked, there were no replies and I thought, "Hmm. Guess everyone's busy for the holidays!" Then I had to go clean and organize my disheveled house and get ready for family arriving today. Then I checked back and boy, have things picked up!

 

Thanks, everyone, for all the input. I have appreciated everyone's input. Several things have stood out to me to consider: 1) I should feel more freedom to redesign the way we're currently doing MFW to better fit the boys' ages and stages. I have naturally grouped the older two so far, but perhaps it actually makes more sense to let the oldest read his history instead (which I think he will love doing) and then work with the younger two using the 2nd/3rd grade supplement. I never really thought of doing it this way and it might just be better for us.

 

2) What I meant by "hours of read-aloud time" is that I sometimes read or hear about families that do this, and there is a big part of me that is envious! Would that all my three boys would sit down quietly and listen attentively as we read great books together! But it just doesn't work, and that is no fault of their own; I guess I am just having to let go of that dream a little bit. I should say that of course the younger two loves when I read to them individually. And there are times they will listen to a book I'm reading (usually a fiction read-aloud at lunchtime). But expecting that history and science will always go over well if read aloud to my 11 and 8 year olds may be a bit of fantasy on my part.

 

3) Thank you, too, for the heads-up about TOG. I definitely appreciate a better window into how that curriculum works. I have heard it is costly, too, and that is a consideration. And I do think that what I am feeling is not a dissatisfaction with MFW per se, but a growing realization that I need to be willing to tinker and adjust as I go along if things aren't working well for everyone.

 

I know I have more to say but since I have Thanksgiving dinner prep to attend to, I will stop here. But I do still welcome additional input from anyone else about this question!

 

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

 

Best,