Vaccine / Autism Poll

[GreenKitty]

Vaccinated first child and saw autistic behavior afterwards. It was like day and night. Have not vaccinated any of my children since and none of them have any sign of autism.

[SKL]

Re "where were the autistic kids when I was young."  My cousin, who is now in his early 40s, is severely autistic.  I remember him as a little boy - the whole head-banging, repeating the same syllable over and over (usually yee, yee, yee), unable to communicate beyond very primitive needs, freaking out and becoming uncontrollable in the middle of crossing a busy road, punching a hole through the wall when overwhelmed.  He was about 110% muscle because he never relaxed.  He was also labeled as "retarded," but that was more because he was essentially untestable.

 

He went to a "special school" when he was little, and eventually became a resident of said school, coming home on weekends.  He had some incidents such as wandering around town naked and punching an elderly friend (putting her in the hospital) without really meaning to harm.  As an adult he is institutionalized.

 

At some point, thanks to some drugs, he was able to hold a simple conversation.  I remember him telling me he wanted to get a bicycle so he could ride it to some place that fascinated him.

 

I did a research paper on autism when I was in college.  I admittedly used old books (there weren't any newer ones at our library, and it was before the days of the Internet).  The books were from the 1960s IIRC.  They explained that autism was a relatively new diagnosis (then), as previously it had been considered "childhood schizophrenia."  The cause was a mystery, but many people thought it was due to the parent(s) being cold or abusive toward the child.  My cousin's dad was abusive toward his mom and died of cancer when the child was 3.  His mom had had a nervious breakdown as a teen when her dad died, and never has been a stable person.  She was considered to be really clueless as far as caring for her child.  So there were various theories as to how my cousin happened to be autistic.  Some people thought she must have been beating him in the head when nobody was looking.  Of course we now know that it was almost certainly not anything she did.  She certainly had it rough, with so much judgment and so little understanding.

[SKL]

Vaccinated first child and saw autistic behavior afterwards. It was like day and night. Have not vaccinated any of my children since and none of them have any sign of autism.

 

I have a friend who says exactly the same thing about day and night.  That's why I believe there is something . . . but obviously it doesn't affect everyone the same.  Kinda like my kid's reaction to sugar is extremely different from that of everyone else I know.  It's the sugar - but it isn't "just" the sugar.

[Crimson Wife]

I think some of the increase is better (or even over) diagnosis, but some of it is real. Back when my oldest was a preschooler, we knew exactly one child with ASD. Now I have one in my own family and I know quite a few other families dealing with ASD even excluding the ones we know as a direct result of my DD.

[Guest]

This. 

My kid was different in utero, had signs at birth, his dad is on the spectrum. We did vaccinate him, but I saw no connection between his symptoms(which are all but gone now) and the vaccines.

I can't say there is no connection for other kids, but I don't see any connection for my child. 

We no longer do routine vaccines for reasons unrelated to autism.

 

I'm very interested in hearing more about the bolded. Have you found nutritional, or other routes to help him function more typically? 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm very interested in hearing more about the bolded. Have you found nutritional, or other routes to help him function more typically?

I highly recommend reading the books "Healing the New Childhood Epidemics" by Dr. Kenneth Bock and "The Autism Book" by Dr. Bob Sears. I have seen dramatic leaps in my DD's functioning literally within days of adding certain biomed treatments. Specifically acetyl-L-carnitine (DD tested deficient in carnitine), Coenzyme Q10, Behavior Balance DMG, methyl B12 injections, and Oxytocin nasal spray. Now not everything we have tried has helped, but going to see a biomed dr. has been one of the best things we have done for my DD in the almost 2 years since her diagnosis.

[GoVanGogh]

I have a BIL with CP and several other issues who was born in 1963.  He would definitely be diagnosed as on the spectrum now, but at the time was simply classified as "retarded".

 

There are studies suggesting that a number of CP patients also have autism.

I am personally interested in this, as our DS has a rare form of CP that our pediatriican insisted was autism. 

There are so many neurological symptoms that overlap, but - with our son's case - a pediatrician doing a basic well-child exam on a seated child wouldn't catch the movement disorder. I am in a large urban area with two children's hospitals and have been unable to find a pediatrician that is familiar with this form of CP or know how to screen for it. That leads me to wonder if some mild CP cases are mistaken for as autism. (It took us years to get to the correct specialists. We likely now only got the dx as an observant occupational therapist keyed in on a subtle symptom that a previous OT missed.)

On the flip side, having a neurological issues such as CP - or the issue that caused the CP in the first place - could put children at a higher risk for autism.

Right now, there is little to no research being done on CP, let alone any research on a connection between CP and autism. 

 

Re: "r-word." It used to be assumed that children that couldn't speak were mentally disabled. Research and years of adaptive technology has proven otherwise. CP is a movement disorder caused by variations in muscle tone. If that high or low muscle tone happens around the mouth/tongue area, that person may not be able to speak - not because they are mentally disabled but because they physically can't contorl their lips and tongue to speak. More than likely, many people with CP have average to above average IQs, due to the complexity of the brain and how it can rewire itself around damaged areas. I am so sad for CP patients of past generations.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

There are studies suggesting that a number of CP patients also have autism.

I am personally interested in this, as our DS has a rare form of CP that our pediatriican insisted was autism. 

There are so many neurological symptoms that overlap, but - with our son's case - a pediatrician doing a basic well-child exam on a seated child wouldn't catch the movement disorder. I am in a large urban area with two children's hospitals and have been unable to find a pediatrician that is familiar with this form of CP or know how to screen for it. That leads me to wonder if some mild CP cases are mistaken for as autism. (It took us years to get to the correct specialists. We likely now only got the dx as an observant occupational therapist keyed in on a subtle symptom that a previous OT missed.)

On the flip side, having a neurological issues such as CP - or the issue that caused the CP in the first place - could put children at a higher risk for autism.

Right now, there is little to no research being done on CP, let alone any research on a connection between CP and autism. 

 

Re: "r-word." It used to be assumed that children that couldn't speak were mentally disabled. Research and years of adaptive technology has proven otherwise. CP is a movement disorder caused by variations in muscle tone. If that high or low muscle tone happens around the mouth/tongue area, that person may not be able to speak - not because they are mentally disabled but because they physically can't contorl their lips and tongue to speak. More than likely, many people with CP have average to above average IQs, due to the complexity of the brain and how it can rewire itself around damaged areas. I am so sad for CP patients of past generations.

 

In this case, BIL is also severely mentally disabled as well.

 

[Desert Strawberry]

I can think of quite a few children from my childhood who had obvious or possible autistic symptoms who were simply called slow or emotionally disturbed. My husband was a slow learner. He almost definitely has aspergers. He went from special ed in elementary school to honors classes in high school. He still struggles with social situations.

I agree there is a tremendous amount of overlap of neuro symptoms and misdiagnosis is a distinct possibility.

I do wonder at the effects of early birth. The average gestation has fallen from 41 weeks to 39. Not long ago 37 weeks was considered a late term preemie. Now 37 weeks is called term. It used to be common for babies to be born at 43 weeks gestation. That is unheard of now. Chopping 6 weeks off the end of a pregnancy must certainly have some kind of effect on the baby's development.

[StaceyinLA]

Didn't vote because I don't have a child with autism. However, we do have 2 children in our family (one in his 30's, one 5yo) on the spectrum. Both were fully vaccinated. One was definitely a more calm, passive child from the beginning, but had no specifically odd behaviors until he was closer to 3, and after all vaccines, and the other had a drastic change after about 18 months (then that was right after the MMR). My sisters (his mom and another sister that was extremely close to her - I am MUCH younger, so I don't remember as well) both said the change was sudden, and drastic.

 

Do I believe there is a link? Absolutely. Vaccines may not be the sole cause, but I think for predisposed individuals, it can certainly be a trigger. As far as the studies, there are still doctors and scientists that aren't convinced there isn't a link. I think big pharm has a LOT to lose if this is proven, and I don't think it will ever be truly studied and proven because of the money involved. I think the fact that we have a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is proof enough that vaccines aren't as safe as they'd like us to believe, but I doubt we will ever get anyone to admit there is a real problem with our vaccines and our vaccine schedule. The aluminum content alone (being 50x the toxic level) is enough to make me believe vaccines could cause a lot more issues than anyone would like us to know.

 

The NVICP has paid out MILLIONS every year for vaccine injury (over 2.6 BILLION since 1989) - I just recently looked at the Department of Health and Human Services site last week due to a discussion I was having with one of my nephews. It speaks volumes to me that they pay people for vaccine injuries every year, but steadily deny that there is a problem. Do we really believe they'd pay out in the BILLIONS if they knew they had a safe product?!? Kinda reminds me of the NFL - money always seems to be the winner.

[NASDAQ]

One of my  children was actually _in_ a study of the vaccine schedule. Half the children in the study were on one schedule, and half were on the other (I think it had to do with whether some vaccine or another was at six months, or a year). It was a cross-Canada thing, forty or so children from each city.

 

I didn't get the impression that it's particularly easy to conduct one of these studies. The pool of people who are willing to let you muck about with the shots you give the child is a small one. I know this, because they never, ever lose my number now. They can't pay you, and the child gets extra needles because of the blood tests.

[NASDAQ]

The NVICP has paid out MILLIONS every year for vaccine injury - I just recently looked at the Department of Health and Human Services site last week due to a discussion I was having with one of my nephews. It speaks volumes to me that they pay people for vaccine injuries every year, but steadily deny that there is a problem. Kinda reminds me of the NFL - money always seems to be the winner.

 

You don't understand how the NVICP works. Vaccines, like all health measures, have a risk. It is an extremely small risk, much smaller than the infectious disease risk. But when we decide to vaccinate masses of people, we decide that some people are going to be the unlucky few who 'take one for the team' and suffer what can be extreme side effects, in effect to protect the rest of us.

 

NVICP exists to assist those people. _Any_ child who suffers certain specific symptoms within a certain window of receiving the vaccine will be compensated. There is no need to prove causation. The only question is, did the given symptoms arise, and did they arise within the post-vaccine window. Prove that and you're done.

 

There is very little money in making childhood vaccines. Especially the older ones.

[StaceyinLA]

I understand exactly how it works. I also understand that the risk of death with many of the diseases we vaccinate for is pretty low percentage-wise, so why aren't we willing to let people "take one for the team" by just catching the diseases and getting natural immunities? The majority of the diseases we vaccinate for were drastically declining BEFORE the vaccines were even being routinely given thanks to hygiene and better antibiotics to combat the diseases. I just don't quite understand how it's better to risk our kids' lives with vaccines than with, say, the measles. 

 

And as far as money - there may not be much in MAKING vaccines, but there is plenty in GIVING them. It's not like they're dosing kids for free. 

[NASDAQ]

I understand exactly how it works. I also understand that the risk of death with many of the diseases we vaccinate for is pretty low percentage-wise, so why aren't we willing to let people "take one for the team" by just catching the diseases and getting natural immunities? The majority of the diseases we vaccinate for were drastically declining BEFORE the vaccines were even being routinely given thanks to hygiene and better antibiotics to combat the diseases. I just don't quite understand how it's better to risk our kids' lives with vaccines than with, say, the measles. 

 

And as far as money - there may not be much in MAKING vaccines, but there is plenty in GIVING them. It's not like they're dosing kids for free. 

 

Because people who understand the numbers and immunity much better than you or I have crunched them and found that far more people would die were these diseases going unchecked by vaccinations. We're talking about trading risks in the millions for risks in the tens of thousands. And better hygiene is not going to eliminate measles, which is airborne. Nor is it going to eliminate polio, which is arguably aggravated by better hygiene.

 

There's no money in giving vaccines in most jurisdictions. They're given at standard well-baby visits, and the reimbursement for those is very low to begin with. Or they're given by public health nurses. You really think that public health nurses are conspiring to render children damaged to create fake public health nurse business?

 

[albeto.]

I also understand that the risk of death with many of the diseases we vaccinate for is pretty low percentage-wise, so why aren't we willing to let people "take one for the team" by just catching the diseases and getting natural immunities?

 

That was the grand plan for virtually all of human history. That, and looking for just the right combination of magic words, magic water, magic objects, magic dancing, human and animal sacrifices. Then vaccines were invented and people were like, Whoa, I can actually prevent my kid from getting this sh*t! Sign me up! 

[Mergath]

I understand exactly how it works. I also understand that the risk of death with many of the diseases we vaccinate for is pretty low percentage-wise, so why aren't we willing to let people "take one for the team" by just catching the diseases and getting natural immunities? The majority of the diseases we vaccinate for were drastically declining BEFORE the vaccines were even being routinely given thanks to hygiene and better antibiotics to combat the diseases. I just don't quite understand how it's better to risk our kids' lives with vaccines than with, say, the measles. 

 

And as far as money - there may not be much in MAKING vaccines, but there is plenty in GIVING them. It's not like they're dosing kids for free. 

 

Yes, how silly of us.  Why in the world would we want to reduce the risk to something extremely miniscule when we could have so many more millions of babies and children sick and dying every year?  Why vaccinate and prevent disease when we could just load everyone up with lots of extra antibiotics and spray them down with hand sanitizer year after year after year?  That'll be MUCH healthier than the vaccines, I'm sure.

 

If you think a measles vaccine is life-threatening and getting the measles is perfectly safe, you need to crack a book or open up a website sometime.  Allow me to educate you:  

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

 

Complications of Measles

About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including

• Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
• Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result.
• Diarrhea is reported in about 8% of cases.

These complications are more common among children under 5 years of age and adults over 20 years old.

Even in previously healthy children, measles can be a serious illness requiring hospitalization. As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it. Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

In developing countries, where malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency are common, measles has been known to kill as many as one out of four people. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children. It is estimated that in 2008 there were 164,000 measles deaths worldwide.

 

SSPE (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis)

SSPE is a very rare, but fatal degenerative disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. Analysis of data from an outbreak of measles in the United States during 1989-1991 suggests a rate of 4-11 cases of SSPE per 100,000 cases of measles. A risk factor for developing this disease is measles infection at an early age. Studies in the United Kingdom indicate that 18 out of every 100,000 people who get measles when they are less than a year old will develop SSPE. This is compared to 1.1 per 100,000 in those infected after 5 years of age. On average, the symptoms of SSPE begin 7 to 10 years after measles infection, but they can appear anytime from 1 month to 27 years after infection.

The first signs of SSPE may be changes in personality, a gradual onset of mental deterioration and myoclonia (muscle spasms or jerks). The diagnosis of SSPE is based on signs and symptoms and on test results, such as typical changes observed in electroencephalographs, an elevated anti-measles antibody (IgG) in the serum and cerebrospinal fluid, and typical histologic findings in brain biopsy tissue.

SSPE progresses in stages, which can vary from person to person. In some cases, the cognitive decline may continue for years before progression to more severe neuromuscular disorders are observed, and thus the diagnosis may be delayed or missed. There are reports of remission and some treatments are available; however, the average survival is one to two years.

All of the genetic analyses of viral material derived from brain tissue of SSPE patients have revealed sequences of wild-type measles virus, never vaccine virus. There is no evidence that measles vaccine can cause SSPE. Cases of SSPE in patients who have a history of measles vaccination but no knowledge of having had measles either had an undiagnosed rash illness or possibly a mild measles infection early in life due to the presence of maternal antibody. Therefore, physicians should consider SSPE in the differential diagnosis of encephalitis even when the patient does not have a history of measles.

 

 

 

But please, continue telling us all how the measles is no biggie.

[Deee]

I'm not going to spend much time on this thread because I've gone through all this lots of times before and I know a brick wall when I see one, but I feel compelled to share a few truths. I am a scientist by trade, I worked in evidence based medicine for more than a decade and much of my work was in Autism research.

 

There is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism. A high quality, large cohort study has shown that there is no correlation between vaccination and the incidence of autism (I will find the reference but not now cos its midnight in Sydney). For those with no experence in how scientific research works, only large, long term cohort studies can prove that there is no link. It's very expensive and time consuming. Showing that there is no link is not the same as not showing there is a link. The first is deliberate, the second is usually due to poor design.

 

The incidence of autism is rising, largely because the diagnostic criteria has changed. Autism has only been recognised as a disorder since the 1960's. diagnosis has greatly improved in the last ten years with increasing awareness. There is some evidence of over diagnosis as ASD allows families to obtain some support funding which disorders like DCD do not. Many children with Asperger Syndrome would never have been diagnosed 20 years ago. They just would have been considered weird or quirky and gone on to be IT boffins, doctors, accountants, etc.

 

I haven't read all the posts and I'm not sure if he's been mentioned but do beware of anyone quoting Andrew Wakefield. His "research" into MMR, leaky gut and ASD has been completely discredited (its scientifically flawed and fraudulent). He is a charlatan who has caused the loss of herd immunity in the UK, made families sick with guilt, and caused endless confusion and pain.

D

[Deee]

To answer an earlier post, the study type required to disprove the link between ASD and vaccination is not a randomised controlled trial. RCTs test for treatment efficacy, and generally do a poor job of determining adverse events (this is largely an issue of sample size, determined by the clinically significant difference of the treatment under investigation). RCTs are usually not large enough, nor do they run for long enough, to determine rare, long term adverse events. What is needed is a large, long term cohort study, where a group of children is monitored for many years and data about adverse events are collected. The researchers don't determine who gets vaccinated, they just collect and analyse the data. Such cohort studies have been conducted in Denmark and Japan and they found NO LINK between MMR and ASD. They were not funded by vaccine manufacturers (scientists take a very dim view of industry funded research).

 

I have to say I resent the inference that science is corrupt or just generally vaguely incompetent. We know that we make recommendations that affect people's lives. We take our work very seriously. The peer review process is very exacting. We work long hours for fairly ordinary pay, we have very high stress jobs, there is never enough funding, and most work on very short contracts spending at least a third of the year writing grants in the hope of having a job next year. We do the work because we want to make a difference, not because we want to hide the truth and stuff up people's kids. If you know a kid with autism, I can promise you we are all on the same side.

D

[Susan in TX]

OK so a slight spin off question. Has anyone here not gotten shot for their kids as babies but decided to do so after they were 7+ years old? If so, how do you go about it? Would you have a blood draw to see what they are immune to before getting vaccines? What about a much older kid, say high school? Does anybody know how a doctor might handle something like this?

 

My 22yo daughter was not vaccinated as a child. She chose a career that requires her to work in hospital settings so she had to get her immunizations. She simply got all the required shots. It really wasn't a big deal.

 

Susan in TX

[Susan in TX]

My son has Aspergers and he has never had any vaccinations.

 

Susan in TX

[kbutton]

I highly recommend reading the books "Healing the New Childhood Epidemics" by Dr. Kenneth Bock and "The Autism Book" by Dr. Bob Sears. I have seen dramatic leaps in my DD's functioning literally within days of adding certain biomed treatments. Specifically acetyl-L-carnitine (DD tested deficient in carnitine), Coenzyme Q10, Behavior Balance DMG, methyl B12 injections, and Oxytocin nasal spray. Now not everything we have tried has helped, but going to see a biomed dr. has been one of the best things we have done for my DD in the almost 2 years since her diagnosis.

 

Is the Bock book the one that talks about methylation and shows relationships between autism and certain familial disease patterns? While I cannot say for sure that our son inherited Asperger's tendencies from family members, I have seen these methylation charts, and I have tons of family members that have the disorders (diagnosed or suspected) listed in those types of charts (arthritis, mood issues, etc.). My husband's side of the family is a regular Heinz 57 sauce of learning issues, and they aren't necessarily all that related (NLD, stealth dyslexia, diagnosed ADHD, undiagnosed attention and/or executive functioning, borderline personalities, some very high IQs). On that side, there is an NLD mom (no visual-spatial logic or big picture thought anywhere in her brain at all) with a highly visual-spatial, big-picture thinking, dyslexic daughter (the father is extremely visual spatial, very high IQ). You can't get much more opposite in terms of learning and abilities there. Who knows what all those genes mixed together will do, especially adding in nutritional quirks and deficiencies.

 

I personally think that even when some biological things can be linked to behavioral stuff, the biological stuff is often the tipping point, not a 100% flip of the switch. For instance, PANDAs causes major OCD symptoms with sudden onset, but everything I've read indicates that kids who get PANDAS pretty much always show mild OCD symptoms prior to PANDAS, and the PANDAS just causes very severe exacerbations. (PANDAS is when strep bacteria does major monkey business in a person--the person can have strep outright, or their body can make antibodies without them having infection symptoms). I suspect that many things contribute to autism/Asperger's, and the setup and tipping point may be fairly individual. After all, folks with Asperger's and autism vary greatly in their personalities, expression and severity of symptoms, comorbidities, etc.

 

Our son was different from birth. Good eye contact until over stimulated; sensory issues--he would completely lose it the minute he wet his diaper at all (and it wasn't painful for him to pee). Didn't play with toys the ordinary way, but not different enough to be alarming. He was very controlling when he was little. He had serial obsessions starting before he was 1--things he would collect, etc. He's always been a car and train spotter. He liked to sort things. He knew whole families at church by first and last name (mom, dad, kids, and sometimes grandparents) even as a young toddler, and it freaked people out--some of them had never really even talked with him; he'd just put them together by observation and a few questions. Later, he knew everyone by their vehicle make and model or the street and town they lived on (at three). Kids his own age have always been a bit of a mystery to him. He would observe their behavior, but he still had trouble fitting in completely. He has had some great friends, but only in supportive environments (scouts, his private school when he attended there). He's never really been able to tell us his feelings or thoughts until after he's frustrated, and even then it's because we've guessed at them correctly. He has really strong ideas of how something is supposed to be, and if it doesn't pan out that way, it's really ugly. For example, he thought that he would be able to read as soon as he knew his letters. So, when he knew his letters at 2 but couldn't read, he became disgusted with learning anything about letters and reading himself. This mindset persisted into Kindergarten in spite of him starting to read in preschool. It's not really about perfectionism for him; it seems to be more complicated and related to coming to wrong conclusions because he can't share his thoughts to help us shape his perceptions. If we can manage his expectations ahead of time (read his mind!), things usually go much better, unless anxiety takes over.

[Tangerine]

My daughter (with Autism) and my son just got their MMR yesterday. The baby was going to get a vaccine that they ended up being out of, so we put it off until her 2 year appointment. When we got home she had an unprecedented screaming red faced and very looong meltdown, unable to be soothed, then promptly fell asleep in my arms at the table. That has never happened. I couldn't help but think that had she gotten the vaccine that day, I would have attributed her behavior to the vaccine and sworn she was having an adverse reaction.

[Haiku]

Courts cannot confirm that a vaccine causes autism. People can successfully plead their case in court, but that doesn't really mean anything. Guilty people are set free and innocent people are convicted with regularity. Aside from the fact that courts have no real say in scientific validity, the website this article appeared on, and the article itself, are not exactly what one would call unbiased sources. Many assertions are made with no references cited, and not enough information is given about the court cases to understand what the verdicts really meant.

 

I was once sued for a car accident. The woman who sued me claimed that she needed $25,000+ in damages because the accident had left her unable to work for over six months (it was a minor fender-bender). She was, apparently, a "reader of auras" at some sort of spiritual shop and claimed the accident messed up her chi or something. We settled out of court and she received some money. From the outside it might look like she "won," and that her claim was valid, but in reality she won less than $500 for some x-rays done on her wrist. The settlement did not in any way prove that our car accident caused her ability as a reader of auras to be diminished (and, in fact, there was nothing actually wrong with her wrist).

 

I do not believe that vaccines cause autism.

[Alenee]

I have three girls who were all vaccinated on schedule with the exception of the chicken pox and gardasil; we delayed chicken pox and probably won't do gardasil. One of my three is on the spectrum. I can definitely tell you when something changed with her but I cannot say for sure whether it was on a day she was vaccinated or shortly thereafter but there was most definitely a certain day everything changed. She went from being happy and content to screaming constantly. I can remember the moment like it was yesterday and it breaks my heart. With supplement therapy, she looks for the most part to be a typically developing pre-teen. The only major physical clue is the way she walks.

 

I believe autism is genetic especially after years of knowing dh's family and another friend's family. You can see it go back several generations.

[Haiku]

The majority of the diseases we vaccinate for were drastically declining BEFORE the vaccines were even being routinely given thanks to hygiene and better antibiotics to combat the diseases.

 

How many countries have you spent time in where children are not routinely vaccinated yet routinely die of these supposedly declining diseases? While hygiene in, say, a certain African country may not be what it is here, the people there are not stupid, and they know that germs cause disease. And the majority of them rush to get their kids vaccinated when the opportunity arises because they are tired of watching so many kids around them sicken and die. I've been there. I've seen it.