Jump to content

Menu

Religious curricula being used/offered in a public school?


Guest inoubliable
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just to respond to point #5: That is how it is done in my city, and it seems to work fine. People just settle in somewhere that suits their values and priorities. I don't know why it would be considered hyperbole. I suppose we don't just hop around, but we would check into things that matter to us while we were making these types of decisions, and we wouldn't be bothered if we wanted to change our minds based on new information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 269
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Honestly, I don't think that's true.  I think many mainline Christians and even secular types get into homeschooling without realizing the agenda that ABeka, Apologia, etc. represent.

 

And if the school has an agenda to encourage those values, then I hardly think they're going to be impartial in explaining the relative merits of the various options.  They probably don't "see" it themselves.  If your perspective is represented, you often don't realize how different it is from someone else's.

 

This is a school whose curricula is meant to be used by parents to teach their kids.  Parents are still free to purchase their own religious curricula, but the school should not be providing or promoting it for use in any way.  It seems pretty clear cut to me.  These aren't resource books about religion for kids or even parents to check out and read, these are curricula.  I have always heard that charters were not allowed to provide religious curricula.

 

If they picked up any of the books mentioned and even remotely flipped through them before borrowing something, I think they would see that they are Christian.  There is no hidden text in these books. Rod & Staff even manages to make math holy.  

 

I think the issue is simply whether your friend wants to speak up or not. Only she can decide that honestly. I would definitely have her "next step" be to talk with someone. She doesn't even need to say she isn't religious - that's irrelevant to her concern, she can simply ask about the legality of offering it (I was under the impression charters couldn't offer anything religious, is that right??).  Or as mentioned previously, she can call someone directly that knows homeschool laws & ask them before persuing this further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Couldn't you PM her? 

 

I suppose I could. Honestly it didn't occur to me. I've been reading this forum for over a year, and I see people ask questions within threads everyday. I had no intention of hijacking the thread. She made a very strong statement, and I thought it would add to the conversation for some clarity. I was just curious. Maybe someone could direct me to the "rule" book for allowable postings. Again not said with snark. I really need to know what is acceptable because I see such variance everyday. I'll sign off this thread for now because I apparently have nothing to contribute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose I could. Honestly it didn't occur to me. I've been reading this forum for over a year, and I see people ask questions within threads everyday. I had no intention of hijacking the thread. She made a very strong statement, and I thought it would add to the conversation for some clarity. I was just curious. Maybe someone could direct me to the "rule" book for allowable postings. Again not said with snark. I really need to know what is acceptable because I see such variance everyday. I'll sign off this thread for now because I apparently have nothing to contribute.

 

you don't need to pm her. she said it publicly & you responded publicly. big deal. every thread i read has bunny trails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A member here asked me to post this on her behalf. 

 

 

A local charter school that her children attend now has a lending library. This library is stocked with a lot of religious curricula - not just books on religion. (Think Abeka, Apologia, and creationist based science.) She asked the teacher if the books were bought with public funds or donated and the teacher responded that the materials were mostly donated and that they go through a rigorous review to make sure that all materials align with their core values and principals. 

 

Our OP is uncomfortable with a public school providing religious curricula, even if it is donated, and wonders about the legality of this. She's concerned that a public school would proclaim to have religious values and principals and now is even more reluctant to be open with her non-belief. OP lives in a very conservative, Christian community and is afraid to ask too many questions for fear of being ostracized. 

 

What say the Hive? 

Should a public charter school be lending donated religious curricula? Should they be telling members that they have religious values and principals as part of their school's core philosophies? Should OP say something to the principal? If so, what would you say?

 

 

I'll update with more, if OP decides to add to this. 

 

Thanks!

 

-KK

HmmĂ¢â‚¬Â¦ I haven't read the other replies, so I may read through tomorrow and get some other ideas or see some points that I haven't thought of, and change my mind then...

But overall, I don't think it's a huge deal if they are donated and if they have a disclaimer that they are religious in nature.  I don't see a problem with children of any age learning about different views, faiths, etc, as long as they are presented as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they picked up any of the books mentioned and even remotely flipped through them before borrowing something, I think they would see that they are Christian.  There is no hidden text in these books. Rod & Staff even manages to make math holy.  

 

I think the issue is simply whether your friend wants to speak up or not. Only she can decide that honestly. I would definitely have her "next step" be to talk with someone. She doesn't even need to say she isn't religious - that's irrelevant to her concern, she can simply ask about the legality of offering it (I was under the impression charters couldn't offer anything religious, is that right??).  Or as mentioned previously, she can call someone directly that knows homeschool laws & ask them before persuing this further.

 

The issue wouldn't be under homeschool laws but rather charter school/public school laws.

 

If she wants a definite answer, the best way to consult a lawyer. I don't see how the discussion here, as interesting as it is, will help her unless she takes the step to ask about the legality. Then the school board/trustees (?) have an obligation to look into the legality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inoubliable

Freckles,

Public schools don't need ANY religious curricula. Books about religion are a different matter. Of course public school libraries should have books about all religions.

 

I think this is where some people are getting so confused. I don't know how to make it any clearer, though. >.<

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A local charter school that her children attend now has a lending library. This library is stocked with a lot of religious curricula - not just books on religion. (Think Abeka, Apologia, and creationist based science.) She asked the teacher if the books were bought with public funds or donated and the teacher responded that the materials were mostly donated and that they go through a rigorous review to make sure that all materials align with their core values and principals. 

 

From the state's web site:

 

Are charter schools required to adopt state content standards and use state assessments?

Yes. The charter school application must include a description of the schoolĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s educational program Ă¢â‚¬Å“that has been proven to be effective, pupil performance standards, measurable annual achievement goals that are based on the state accreditation indicatorsĂ¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â 

http://www.cde.state.co.us/cdechart/faq

 

Presumably, then, the materials in the curriculum library - that is, curricula that the school has reviewed and is presenting to parents as appropriate to use - should align with state standards.  This alone would rule out much of the science from the publishers mentioned by the OP, regardless of any religious content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue wouldn't be under homeschool laws but rather charter school/public school laws.

 

If she wants a definite answer, the best way to consult a lawyer. I don't see how the discussion here, as interesting as it is, will help her unless she takes the step to ask about the legality. Then the school board/trustees (?) have an obligation to look into the legality.

 

 

Yep. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the OP.

 

"1. I am in Colorado.

2. The school is a public charter. There is not any type of religious language in its mission statement nor on their website.

3. The school is a large charter school and has an extensive waiting list. It is not unheard of for people to put their children on the waitlist for the full time program when they are babies. It is known as a very good school in this area.

4. These materials are not in the school library. It is a new collection of materials that parents can check out for the year by paying a refundable fee.

5. Of course we can go elsewhere if we are uncomfortable, there are other enrichment programs offered in this city. Is it right to pack up and go elsewhere when you feel something goes against your principles? Or is it better to speak up? How many parents would not say a word at their child's school if they felt something was fundamentally wrong? Technically around here anyone can just move to a different school at the parent's discretion as long as there is space available at the school of your choice so should we recommend all parents just choose another school if they have a problem? (<-- this is obviously hyperbole)

6. I feel like this school, which is well known and considered a very good school in this area, is saying to parents: This is what we feel is good curriculum to teach your children. This curriculum espouses the values we advocate at our school. For homeschooling parents that do not feel confident choosing curriculum this can be a big deal especially coming from such a well respected school - We should definitely use these materials, they are endorsed by XYZ School!

7. These materials are not just religious. Some are disrespectful to other religions including Christians that are not the same "type" of Christianity. There is one BJU history text printed prior to the school lifting its ban on interracial dating. I'm not sure what exactly the text entails but I am surprised a public school is housing the text and advocating its use by homeschoolers."

So do they have a bunch of this stuff? I guess at our lending library I never see more than 1 of any particular book. So at my school I would never see more than a random book here or there by a particular publisher.

 

Now if I were seeing whole packages of these curriculums then I would probably think there is an agenda and I would have a problem with that.

 

And definitely the answer you got from the director sounds kind of odd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to respond to point #5: That is how it is done in my city, and it seems to work fine. People just settle in somewhere that suits their values and priorities. I don't know why it would be considered hyperbole. I suppose we don't just hop around, but we would check into things that matter to us while we were making these types of decisions, and we wouldn't be bothered if we wanted to change our minds based on new information.

 

I see this point made about charters and religion a good bit - if you don't like it, you can pick another option.  The problem, I think, is twofold.  First, there aren't other options in many places, so it's not a marketplace of ideas out there - it's the public school or the charter school that is pushing religion (or not, but the choices are limited).  Second, it still violates the separation between church and state for the charter school to be presenting these materials to their teachers, otherwise known in this case as the homeschool parents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KK, after reading your friend's most recent comments, it seems like she's pretty upset about this, so I think she needs to do some research to find out what is and is not permitted in a charter school lending library. I don't know if districts set their own rules, or if this sort of thing is state-regulated, but if I were her, I'd try to find out at the state level first, so she won't raise any red flags in her own immediate area. If she can get someone interested in the issue at the state level, that person might have the authority to slap the charter school on the wrist and tell them to get the religious curriculum out of their lending library.

 

Otherwise, I stand by what I said earlier, because if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't think this was important enough to warrant having potential problems with friends and neighbors over it. Let's face it, anyone who picks up a BJU or Abeka textbook will immediately know that it contains Christian content, and if they don't already share the same beliefs (or see ways to avoid teaching the religious stuff,) they're going to put those books right back on the shelf where they found them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they picked up any of the books mentioned and even remotely flipped through them before borrowing something, I think they would see that they are Christian.  There is no hidden text in these books. Rod & Staff even manages to make math holy.  

 

I have seen so many comments from people along the line of "I'm Christian so at first I liked that the curricula had bible verses, etc. interwoven..." but then as they get into it, they become more and more uncomfortable with the bashing of other types of Christianity, the fact that these materials are YEC, the racism, the providential history, the specific interpretations of Christianity.  That stuff isn't evident from just flipping through.  And if you're new to homeschooling and the one person you know tells you it's good (hey, that one person could be the school librarian) then I think there's a stage at which people could easily not understand what they're getting into.  I've even heard stories from secular homeschoolers that when they first began homeschooling, their first homeschool friend introduced them to things like Apologia and said it was "easy to secularize."  And they believed it.  Until they'd bought it and began using it until they realized.  I can easily imagine a school librarian telling a newbie that.

 

And anyway, it's sort of beside the point, right?  A public school should not be encouraging or promoting these materials.  If parents want to use them, that's their prerogative, but the school shouldn't promote them as curriculum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not a big deal to me. I'm assuming this is a very small percentage of what is available?  Does your friend have slim secular pickings?  The books at hand were donated & aren't purchased using state funds. I'm of the mindset that I don't have to use it, but I don't have to block it from another family either. Homeschooling is financially hard for a lot of people & if someone wants to use Abeka or Apologia & the charter can offer that for free. It really doesn't bother me.  If your friend is really not okay with this, she can take action by making some phone calls.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have seen so many comments from people along the line of "I'm Christian so at first I liked that the curricula had bible verses, etc. interwoven..." but then as they get into it, they become more and more uncomfortable with the bashing of other types of Christianity, the fact that these materials are YEC, the racism, the providential history, the specific interpretations of Christianity.  That stuff isn't evident from just flipping through.  And if you're new to homeschooling and the one person you know tells you it's good (hey, that one person could be the school librarian) then I think there's a stage at which people could easily not understand what they're getting into.  I've even heard stories from secular homeschoolers that when they first began homeschooling, their first homeschool friend introduced them to things like Apologia and said it was "easy to secularize."  And they believed it.  Until they'd bought it and began using it until they realized.  I can easily imagine a school librarian telling a newbie that.

 

And anyway, it's sort of beside the point, right?  A public school should not be encouraging or promoting these materials.  If parents want to use them, that's their prerogative, but the school shouldn't promote them as curriculum.

 

 

Well that happens to many new homeschoolers regardless of what they use. How many times do you see people curriculum hopping & freaking out because they have no idea what they're doing. I imagine a lot of Christians jump from thing to thing, just as secular newbies do too. The K-8 board is evident of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Finances usually are pretty clear for U.S. education issues.  Somebody from Alaska chime in, if you are reading this thread, and correct me if necessary.  I think I remember hearing or reading that there are lump sums made available in Alaska for homeschoolers, so long as no religious materials are purchased with the monies.  This, however, may be an old memory no longer applicable.  The point is that government funds are for government-type materials.

Alaska here! There are several ways to homeschool in Alaska. Many of the local school districts have extension programs. There are private programs as well. (Or you can chuck it all and do your own thing) If you choose one of the public school extension programs (IDEA is the largest one) you get a stipend to use for expenses. It is true that you may not purchase religious based materials with this money. Another  stipulation is that at least 4 of your core subjects must use secular material.

 

You can submit receipts from companies that sell religious material as long as the material itself isn't religious. Some of the most popular companies (Sonlight) have packages specially priced for IDEA that do not include the religious material so funds can be used. Parents then pay for the additional items out of pocket.

 

Interestingly, the local IDEA office has lots of samples of all types of curriculum for browsing and the collection includes ample religious based material. you just can't buy them with allotment money.

 

 

ETA: Wow, this is an astounding poor example of a main point and supporting statements. Yikes...I must be tired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Several interesting documents:

 

http://www.freedomforum.org/publications/first/findingcommonground/B10.USDeptGuidelines.pdf

 

Student Religious Expression in Public Schools: United States Department of Education Guidelines:
 

Teaching about religion 
Public schools may not provide religious instruction, but they may teach about religion, including the Bible or other scripture; the history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature, and the role of religion in the history of the United States and other countries all are permissible public school subjects. Similarly, it is permissible to consider religious influences on art, music, literature and social studies. Although public
schools may teach about religious holidays, including their religious aspects, and may celebrate the secular aspects of holidays, schools may not observe holidays as religious events or promote such observance by students. 
 
And 
 
 
A TeacherĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s Guide to Religion in the Public Schools

...the question is no longer Ă¢â‚¬Å“Should I teach about religion?Ă¢â‚¬ but rather Ă¢â‚¬Å“How should I do it?  The answer to the Ă¢â‚¬Å“howĂ¢â‚¬ question begins with a clear understanding of the crucial difference between the teaching of religion (religious education or indoctrination) and teaching about religion. 
 
 >The schoolĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s approach to religion is academic,  not devotional.
 >The school strives for student awareness of religions, but does not press for student acceptance of any religion.
 >The school sponsors study about religion, not the  practice of religion.
 >The school may expose students to a diversity of religious views, but may not impose any particular view.
 >The school educates about all religions; it does not  promote or denigrate religion.
 >The school informs students about various beliefs;  it does not seek to conform students to any particular belief.
 

The OP's school is providing curricular materials which include the teaching of a particular set of religious beliefs (materials from the publishers the OP mentioned clearly do this) with the intention that the instructors (parents) use the materials with the students. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The school controls the lending library by charging a fee for use of materials. This is not a pile of free magazines and swap paperbacks. The fact that they're donated is irrelevant. If the public school would not be allowed to use the material in its classrooms (anti-evolution, creationism, intelligent design, etc.), the school should be wary of providing it for use at home under the charter's umbrella. If they had a shelf of a variety of religious curricula as an example of what's out there should you choose to buy it and use wholly independently, that may be different. I don't think there's a question that it is inappropriate. The question is whether she's going to risk being the one to push the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm part of a similar school. We don't have a lending library but get an allotment and people requested religious materials. Most of them were approved with the reasoning that as long as it was a nonreligious subject, it was OK. This isn't OK with me and it isn't OK with the DPI either. They are having to re-vamp their approval process. But it sounds like even with the new guidelines many things that I would consider not appropriate for public funds would still be OK. I know they've approved Apologia, Rod & Staff, items from Bob Jones, Abeka, Alpha Omega (?), etc. & I know some more of those will still be approved. I'm not happy about it. Especially since my Oak Meadow order was held-up for over a month while they had endless mtgs discussing it - yet during that time orders from previously approved vendors/publishers were still going through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are familiar with a public school program here for homeschoolers.  No religious materials can be bought for their library but there are a small number of books from religious publishers in the lending collection.  Either donations or things that didn't get flagged when parents ordered them.  I dunno.  

 

Honestly, I don't care.  It's not the end of the world and it is incumbent on people to research what books they choose to use and check out.  I don't think inclusion in the library is an endorsement by the school of the contents of the book.  But then again, the magnet I went to had the Anarchist's Cookbook in their library.  And no one built a bomb.  Let students read what they want to read.  My answer isn't the legal one but just my general opinion.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well that happens to many new homeschoolers regardless of what they use. How many times do you see people curriculum hopping & freaking out because they have no idea what they're doing. I imagine a lot of Christians jump from thing to thing, just as secular newbies do too. The K-8 board is evident of that.

 

Sure, but it's different when it's "this math program is boring/too hard/all wrong for my kid!" vs. "I had no idea this was the religious agenda of this product" - especially when it was provided by the public school through which your homeschool is approved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue wouldn't be under homeschool laws but rather charter school/public school laws.

 

If she wants a definite answer, the best way to consult a lawyer. I don't see how the discussion here, as interesting as it is, will help her unless she takes the step to ask about the legality. Then the school board/trustees (?) have an obligation to look into the legality.

At the end of the day I think the legality of the school's policy is where the decision to let it go or make a stand lies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first post raised my eyebrows, but the follow up details muddy it up for me. Mostly because I'm not sure I understand what kind of "school" this is. If it's mostly acting as an umbrella for homeschoolers, I don't have an issue with it. We all know that plenty of homeschoolers are happily and legally using religious curricula. If it's mostly acting as a public school in the traditional "We teach your kids, you make sure they do their homework" way, it makes me a bit more uncomfortable. Primarily for the expanded influence aspect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first post raised my eyebrows, but the follow up details muddy it up for me. Mostly because I'm not sure I understand what kind of "school" this is. If it's mostly acting as an umbrella for homeschoolers, I don't have an issue with it. We all know that plenty of homeschoolers are happily and legally using religious curricula. If it's mostly acting as a public school in the traditional "We teach your kids, you make sure they do their homework" way, it makes me a bit more uncomfortable. Primarily for the expanded influence aspect.

 

In some states, the charter school gets funded for the students and oversees their education even though the parents do the teaching.  It is very similar to an umbrella.  But in the case of an umbrella, the homeschool parents pay for the umbrella.  In this case, the state pays for the school and the students.  In fact, officially, these families are not homeschooling, they're public school students who happen to be taught at home.  In other words, this is a public school giving its teachers - the parents - religious curricula.  If a parent funded umbrella wanted to do this, it would be clearly fine, but it seems pretty clear to me that this is illegal.

 

To answer the OP's question, I don't think I could stay there, even if I thought they were doing a good job otherwise or liked the services I was getting.  But I'm stubborn like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be wary of challenging this in Co? (my own opinion) Aren't they the state that said Sonlight wasn't Christian enough for their conference? It shows to me that the state homeschool groups are willing to take the fight. Does she want to go up against that? I think this is one of those gray areas that will have to ironed out about public money and homeschooling. 

 

The question I'd research is whether you can take public charter money to buy religious material (religion instruction or religious publisher) outside of the scope of lending library. 

 

The other question I would ask myself is I WANT to make this a big deal. If this is the type of materials the average homeschooler in her area uses, and it would be easy to switch groups, then I might find another group. 

 

It could be a gray area, an untried legal area, and honestly I see someone like HSLDA jumping all over this as "persecution". 

 

I agree that this would make me question the beliefs being touted by the group. If I felt like the conservative only, no tolerance for others agenda was being used then I'd switch groups. If the group is open to all, I might stay. If I felt like this group would require a SOF if they weren't a charter ( we would if we could - wink, wink, nudge, nudge), that's how I'd look at it. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, but it's different when it's "this math program is boring/too hard/all wrong for my kid!" vs. "I had no idea this was the religious agenda of this product" - especially when it was provided by the public school through which your homeschool is approved.

I think it would only take a few quick minutes to realize that BJU and Abeka are Christian. I think several of the textbook covers even mention the fact.

 

We used the BJU DVD program for a while, and we had to work around a lot of the religious content, but never for a single moment did I not realize that they had an agenda. They're not exactly subtle about it.

 

I have never known of a public school that had a curriculum lending library, but it seems odd to me that a public school would offer any kind of homeschool curriculum to their students' families -- and to offer religious curriculum seems even more over-the-top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've heard that over and over again for states that provide funds for homeschoolers. I think it's not just Alaska. I think California is like this, too?

I have had my kids in two CA virtual charters (they are limited to counties contiguous with where the school is chartered and we moved out of the first school's area).

 

The first charter was super-strict about materials purchased with the student stipend. Purchase orders for any vendor that sold both religious and secular materials (like Rainbow Resource) had to go through an administrator rather than just the "Educational Specialist" assigned to the child. I have heard through the grapevine that the school has since disallowed ANY materials from IEW (when we were there I could purchase some but not others).

 

Our current charter school is much more laid-back about the issue. They will not purchase from religious vendors or anything blatantly Christian (anything with "God" or "Christian" in the title for example), but I've had things get ordered that definitely would not have passed muster at the other charter (Greenleaf Guide to Ancient Literature is one). I can't turn in any work sample that has any religious content except if it is strictly historical or literary. So if I were to turn in a sample of Horizons math (paid for out-of-pocket though I have seen a few Horizons math books in the lending library), I'd have to choose a page that didn't have any Christian content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your friend could do what I did with the religious material at my daughter's (public, secular) school - take it home and bin it.

 

In the case of library materials, borrow it and lose it.

Families have to pay the full replacement cost for any charter lending library materials lost or damaged. So you'd be out whatever the cost of the material that you have "lost" (which could be quite expensive).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Families have to pay the full replacement cost for any charter lending library materials lost or damaged. So you'd be out whatever the cost of the material that you have "lost" (which could be quite expensive).

:iagree:

 

Also, it's a waste of perfectly good books that might mean a lot to another family. Why would anyone think it was OK to decide which books could and couldn't be there? I don't think it's up to each individual to decide what other people can read or borrow.

 

I agree that religious textbooks don't belong in public schools, but if someone objects to them so strongly that they are willing to steal them and toss them in the trash, why not use that energy to publicly object about the presence of the materials and to demand that they be removed? I don't think it solves anything to be sneaky and just throw the books away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know what would be interesting?

 

If the person in question asked the library if they would like more homeschooling material and folks here donated some secular stuff they had lying around.

 

"I think the fact that you order these materials in your library is wonderful! If love to help you build your homeschooling resources by donating more material."

 

Then see what happens...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Bible has sex and violence. "Biblical" homeschooling material generally doesn't.

Really? How do they manage to do the OT while avoiding that? Or, is it more avoided for other subject areas that aren't actually about the Bible's narrative?

 

Honestly the Bible is a book that explores the themes of life and death. You can't really get into that theme if you have to avoid all the stories that involve life/conception/sex, and also all those that involve death/killing/violence. I think skipping them would render the OT incomprehensible... And really, pretty short.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would only take a few quick minutes to realize that BJU and Abeka are Christian. I think several of the textbook covers even mention the fact.

 

 

But again, it's not that they're Christian.  I explained this before.  Yes, a single glance will tell you that.  It's that they're peddling a certain type of Christianity and a certain agenda alongside it.  And a few minutes, if you're new and don't even understand the ins and outs of that agenda, and have been told - potentially by your oversight teacher at your public charter school or by the public charter school librarian - that this is a great curriculum or "easy to secularize" or that the religion is secondary to the great content or whatever, then I think it would, indeed, be very easy to be misled, particularly for Christians who are religious but ignorant of the potentially big gaps they might have in doctrine with some of these curricula.  And if that happens to someone by a friend, then that's their own fault for not looking deeper.  If it happens to someone when it's a public school who suggested or provided the resource for them to use as part of their child's public school education, then that's different.  And I'm pretty sure it violates the separation of church and state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curious.

Some Catholic schools (here in the states) are subsidized by the government on some level. They are obviously allowed to operate as a religious school. How is this different? Honest question - I'm not sure what makes a charter a charter and not just another "regular public". From what I understand, charters often have *less* because they get less money than "regular public" schools.. which sounds similar to the monies given to some Catholic schools (primarily up north, if my memory serves).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a little confused. Is this an charter school, like a virtual school using K12, and offering a lending library of homeschooling materials? Or is this a one day a week, "let's provide the homeschoolers with some socialization and a little oversight" sort of school?

 

If it is the latter, then the parents are indeed homeschooling and I would think that a lending library with donated homeschool materials, religious or secular, would be fine. Whether someone agrees with them or not, the parents would be in charge of selecting appropriate materials. A one-day a week school really doesn't have much influence.

 

If it is the former, I can't think why they would have a lending library of curricula at all. They are already offering one for their students. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a little confused. Is this an charter school, like a virtual school using K12, and offering a lending library of homeschooling materials? Or is this a one day a week, "let's provide the homeschoolers with some socialization and a little oversight" sort of school?

 

If it is the latter, then the parents are indeed homeschooling and I would think that a lending library with donated homeschool materials, religious or secular, would be fine. Whether someone agrees with them or not, the parents would be in charge of selecting appropriate materials. A one-day a week school really doesn't have much influence.

 

If it is the former, I can't think why they would have a lending library of curricula at all. They are already offering one for their students.

I'm not clear on what it is, either. I feel like I'm missing part of the story, because I can't imagine that a public charter school would be allowed to distribute or loan out religious curriculum of any kind, and I don't know why they would be offering any kind of homeschooling materials to the families of students who already attend their public charter school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we have made this far too complicated.   :001_smile:   Your friend already should have read the Colorado state regulations, which can be read in their entirety here:

http://www.cde.state.co.us/sites/default/files/documents/cdechart/download/cshandbook.pdf

 

Having glanced at this document, I think that she does not even need this thread.

 

Best wishes to her and her decisions!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curious.

Some Catholic schools (here in the states) are subsidized by the government on some level. They are obviously allowed to operate as a religious school. How is this different? Honest question - I'm not sure what makes a charter a charter and not just another "regular public". From what I understand, charters often have *less* because they get less money than "regular public" schools.. which sounds similar to the monies given to some Catholic schools (primarily up north, if my memory serves).

I think government subsidies are limited to tuition vouchers and tax credits, which go to the parents and can be used at any private school. There's also a case re: AmeriCorps teacher stipends which involved a teacher at a Catholic school, but the loan stipends are available to teachers who meet the qualifications and teach anywhere. If there are other subsidies, please post! I'm fascinated by education law. :)

 

Arguably ALL churches who utilize non-profit-non-taxable status are being subsidized by the government. The Catholic Church just happens to be one of the largest benefitting from that in the US.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our charter school is next to a church and some parents are in an uproar over just that fact!

Clearly, the church needs to move. :rolleyes:

 

How could anyone be upset about having a church next door to a school? Do they worry that the choir will sing extra-loudly to entice the kids? :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think government subsidies are limited to tuition vouchers and tax credits, which go to the parents and can be used at any private school. There's also a case re: AmeriCorps teacher stipends which involved a teacher at a Catholic school, but the loan stipends are available to teachers who meet the qualifications and teach anywhere. If there are other subsidies, please post! I'm fascinated by education law. :)

 

Arguably ALL churches who utilize non-profit-non-taxable status are being subsidized by the government. The Catholic Church just happens to be one of the largest benefitting from that in the US.

 

I'm not sure of specifics, but I thought it went beyond just stipends for parents and vouchers - I know there's a bit of a kerfluffle right now because, in states with CC, even where the diocese has adopted CCS for their Catholic schools, it appears that some Catholic schools (who get these subsidies) are being required to implement them.

No clue. I'm ignorant on the topic, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a little confused. Is this an charter school, like a virtual school using K12, and offering a lending library of homeschooling materials? Or is this a one day a week, "let's provide the homeschoolers with some socialization and a little oversight" sort of school?

 

If it is the latter, then the parents are indeed homeschooling and I would think that a lending library with donated homeschool materials, religious or secular, would be fine. Whether someone agrees with them or not, the parents would be in charge of selecting appropriate materials. A one-day a week school really doesn't have much influence.

 

If it is the former, I can't think why they would have a lending library of curricula at all. They are already offering one for their students.

She said it's a charter school. A charter is a public school.

Some charters provide a curriculum (like k12), some provide funds that the families can use for activities through approved vendors and/or use their funds for secular curricula of their choosing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not clear on what it is, either. I feel like I'm missing part of the story, because I can't imagine that a public charter school would be allowed to distribute or loan out religious curriculum of any kind, and I don't know why they would be offering any kind of homeschooling materials to the families of students who already attend their public charter school.

Some charters here (CA) have just a homestudy program, there is no brick and mortar school.

Some, like our school, have a B&M school and a homestudy program. The lending library is for the homestudy families. Most of the items in the library (3 bigs cupboards, not really a library) come from families that have ordered these things with their school funds and then are done with them so they take them back and put them on the cupboards.

I know there are also things there that people purchased on their own and are just ready to get rid of and don't want to sell. I've never seen anything overtly religious in the cupboards (Abeka, apologia, BJU, etc.).

 

Eta - I know that the charters that are just for homestudy have lending libraries too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She did say it was a charter school, but she also said she could go elsewhere for enrichment programs.

 

In CO, there are not charters that provide funds for families to use. There is a virtual school charter that uses K12. 

However, there are also enrichment programs that districts and/or individual schools host for homeschooled kids. These kids sign up for the one-day-a-week offerings by the school, but they are not public school students, they are still homeschoolers by the legal definition. Many of these programs do have a lending library made up of donated materials that homeschoolers who are enrolled in the enrichment program can check out.

 

Hence the confusion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She did say it was a charter school, but she also said she could go elsewhere for enrichment programs.

 

In CO, there are not charters that provide funds for families to use. There is a virtual school charter that uses K12.

However, there are also enrichment programs that districts and/or individual schools host for homeschooled kids. These kids sign up for the one-day-a-week offerings by the school, but they are not public school students, they are still homeschoolers by the legal definition. Many of these programs do have a lending library made up of donated materials that homeschoolers who are enrolled in the enrichment program can check out.

 

Hence the confusion.

Ahhhh, I guess I'm confused too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think government subsidies are limited to tuition vouchers and tax credits, which go to the parents and can be used at any private school. 

My state will pay for secular textbooks for private school students, including religious schools.  The school gets a per-student stipend, which they may spend on approved texts and other materials.  Religious texts, foreign language materials, and consumables are not allowed. The school must keep these materials solely for the use of students who are residents of my state.  There are other quite strict rules about the use of these materials.  Generally, the schools buy, say, a math text for each student one year.  The next year, those math texts can be used for new students and the school buys, say, a literature text for each student.  Over the years, the school builds up a library of state books, which can *significantly* reduce the textbook expenses for parents - on the order of $500 per year.  The state retains official ownership of the books for 6 years, after which the school can do with them what they wish.

 

In addition, my state will bus students to private schools, including religious schools, that are located within 10 miles of the school district.  This can save parents over $1000 compared to privately-hired bus service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But again, it's not that they're Christian. I explained this before. Yes, a single glance will tell you that. It's that they're peddling a certain type of Christianity and a certain agenda alongside it. And a few minutes, if you're new and don't even understand the ins and outs of that agenda, and have been told - potentially by your oversight teacher at your public charter school or by the public charter school librarian - that this is a great curriculum or "easy to secularize" or that the religion is secondary to the great content or whatever, then I think it would, indeed, be very easy to be misled, particularly for Christians who are religious but ignorant of the potentially big gaps they might have in doctrine with some of these curricula. And if that happens to someone by a friend, then that's their own fault for not looking deeper. If it happens to someone when it's a public school who suggested or provided the resource for them to use as part of their child's public school education, then that's different. And I'm pretty sure it violates the separation of church and state.

Oh, OK! I get what you mean now.

 

Sorry you had to explain it twice. I should have gotten it the first time around, because you were perfectly clear. :blush:

 

Some days I am just plain dimwitted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Also, it's a waste of perfectly good books that might mean a lot to another family. Why would anyone think it was OK to decide which books could and couldn't be there? I don't think it's up to each individual to decide what other people can read or borrow.

 

 

It seems clear to me that a public school lending religious materials for parents to use as a part of a student's curriculum would be unconstitutional.  

On the other hand, it would be perfectly fine for *parents* to create a *private* lending library for use by the school's parents.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...