LIPS by Lindamood

[PeterPan]

Lecka, your comments about speed of speech reminded me that there *was * a stage where the SLP kept telling me to slow down and not speak to him at normal speed.  I think that was her thought process, that he needed to hear the sounds, and I had totally forgotten that!  When she talks with him, you're correct that it's not super-fast.  She has a therapy voice and then a regular adult voice, lol.  So I think you're right that it's slow down the pace overall to hear sounds, but DON'T over-exagerate syllables when you're teaching a word, lest you actually teach in the pauses.

[PeterPan]

Levels 3-10 are $300 each, but you can sell them for at least $200 each, just so you know. If it took you 3 years (or however many) to go through all the levels, you are looking at a net output of $1,000 ($100 per level after reselling).

Good to hear!  I decided that for us it's not worth it to buy used.  If I need Barton with him, I'm probably also going to need help.  I also want to be able to use the app for the tiles I think.  Has anyone here used that yet?  So I concluded I would just buy new from her and be done with it.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Lecka, your comments about speed of speech reminded me that there *was * a stage where the SLP kept telling me to slow down and not speak to him at normal speed.  I think that was her thought process, that he needed to hear the sounds, and I had totally forgotten that!  When she talks with him, you're correct that it's not super-fast.  She has a therapy voice and then a regular adult voice, lol.  So I think you're right that it's slow down the pace overall to hear sounds, but DON'T over-exagerate syllables when you're teaching a word, lest you actually teach in the pauses.

Actually, that is what I have been having to do with my daughter when we do read alouds or I give her verbal instructions, just because she seemed to get lost when I spoke at normal speed.  I don't

THINK I have been over-exaggerating the syllables, but now I'm not sure...I will pay closer attention to what I'm doing next time.  And perhaps we need further evaluations, too...

[OneStepAtATime]

blasted double post 

 

[PeterPan]

Actually, that is what I have been having to do with my daughter when we do read alouds or I give her verbal instructions, just because she seemed to get lost when I spoke at normal speed.  I don't

THINK I have been over-exaggerating the syllables, but now I'm not sure...I will pay closer attention to what I'm doing next time.  And perhaps we need further evaluations, too...

The only reason exaggerating the syllables would be an issue with ds is because you're teaching motor control patterns.  We're literally inputting into him the precise motor control and then practicing to automaticity.  So a dc without motor control issues wouldn't have that issue.  (Apraxia is a motor control problem.  Think stroke victim who loses speech.  It's in there and can't come out.)

[OneStepAtATime]

The only reason exaggerating the syllables would be an issue with ds is because you're teaching motor control patterns.  We're literally inputting into him the precise motor control and then practicing to automaticity.  So a dc without motor control issues wouldn't have that issue.  (Apraxia is a motor control problem.  Think stroke victim who loses speech.  It's in there and can't come out.)

O.k. Got it. Thanks!

[myboyluvsdinos]

Good to hear!  I decided that for us it's not worth it to buy used.  If I need Barton with him, I'm probably also going to need help.  I also want to be able to use the app for the tiles I think.  Has anyone here used that yet?  So I concluded I would just buy new from her and be done with it.  

Yes -- I use the app. Do you have questions about it? Not positive you have to buy new in order to buy the app?

 

ETA: Don't know that I'd buy the app for level 1 or 2 normally, as they can go pretty quick and the tactile experience of using the tiles is important for some learners, possibly more so for the young ones.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes -- I use the app. Do you have questions about it? Not positive you have to buy new in order to buy the app?

 

ETA: Don't know that I'd buy the app for level 1 or 2 normally, as they can go pretty quick and the tactile experience of using the tiles is important for some learners, possibly more so for the young ones.

I agree.  I think the tactile is more important for Level 1 and 2.  For Level 3 we started with the tiles, but sometimes it was frustrating the kids that we couldn't leave one word in tact while they built another word because there weren't enough tiles.  With the app, set up is a breeze (although I got really confused for about 10 minutes on how to use it when I first started).  Set up and clean up are just a couple of seconds and we don't have to do the lesson at the table.  We can curl up in the bed together or outside on the porch or wherever, as long as the screen is readable and I can have the TM nearby.  Also, the kids love being able to leave up multiple words on the screen to compare.

[Χά�ων]

For y'all who have done this, did you really pay $450???  Is there a cheaper way to get this or a homeschooler discount or something?  

DS's speech and language has it and uses it in therapy. Insurance covers it.

[LaughingCat]

Just to clarify, I did not plan on using Barton and don't regret not using it - but so many people love Barton, and LIPs was so obviously helping her after all my waffling, that I thought, heck I'll buy the first level at least (it is a cheaper level and I also found a good deal on it used) and just see.  And I felt the next part of LIPS (that we had already done) was a faster (less repetition) version of the Barton first level, and she wasn't struggling with it so I just continued on with what I was doing.  Level 1 is probably not a very good sample of the Barton program, but I couldn't see buying more levels to 'just see'.    

 

However,  my main reason for not using Barton (and not regretting it too lol) was it's reputation for rote rules so it's very interesting to see that's not OneStepAtATime's experience.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Just to clarify, I did not plan on using Barton and don't regret not using it - but so many people love Barton, and LIPs was so obviously helping her after all my waffling, that I thought, heck I'll buy the first level at least (it is a cheaper level and I also found a good deal on it used) and just see.  And I felt the next part of LIPS (that we had already done) was a faster (less repetition) version of the Barton first level, and she wasn't struggling with it so I just continued on with what I was doing.  Level 1 is probably not a very good sample of the Barton program, but I couldn't see buying more levels to 'just see'.    

 

However,  my main reason for not using Barton (and not regretting it too lol) was it's reputation for rote rules so it's very interesting to see that's not OneStepAtATime's experience.  

Understood completely.  And you are right on both counts, Level 1 is NOT a good sample of Barton overall and it really is NOT cost effective to buy additional levels just to see.  Level 2, while far more in depth than Level 1, and equally as important, even if it doesn't look it, is also NOT a good example of this program if you are just glancing at it.  Level 3 really starts the meat of the program, but if you haven't used the first two Levels, then key steps may have been missed and it may be much harder for a student to follow the processes involved. Also, the teacher will also probably struggle since they haven't yet gotten the system down automatically.

 

And this program really isn't for everyone.  Not all students will work well within this structure, for one thing.  While it HAS been highly successful with many, there are also many for whom it just doesn't work at all.  Spending that kind of money on something that might not work is just not very appealing or even an option for many.  

 

Also, not all kids need the detail that this program provides.  Other programs provide much of what Barton has, but don't have as much repetition, which not every child needs.  

 

Another thing that can be challenging for some is that it is incredibly teacher intensive and at least with my kids we have been moving really, really slowly.  We just completed Level 3, a pretty intense level, and it took over 4 months.  Level 4 is even lengthier.  I had hoped to get through Level 3, 4 and 5 in one school year, then take a brief break and start Level 6 this summer, but I don't think that will happen now.  We will be taking the post test at the end of next week, but I think both kids are hitching up on internalizing two rules (and they are hitching up on different ones, so I am reviewing different things with each).  

 

Finally, even if this program IS a workable one for a student, if the parent is not willing or able to move slowly enough to allow the student to internalize the rules, then the student ends up having to rote memorize those rules and for many that just will not work.

 

Anyway, LaughingCat I am glad that you were able to find something else that works.  And thanks for sharing so much here.  I know this is OhElizabeth's post, but I have been learning so much, too!  :)

[PeterPan]

Yes -- I use the app. Do you have questions about it? Not positive you have to buy new in order to buy the app?

 

ETA: Don't know that I'd buy the app for level 1 or 2 normally, as they can go pretty quick and the tactile experience of using the tiles is important for some learners, possibly more so for the young ones.

 

 

I agree.  I think the tactile is more important for Level 1 and 2.  For Level 3 we started with the tiles, but sometimes it was frustrating the kids that we couldn't leave one word in tact while they built another word because there weren't enough tiles.  With the app, set up is a breeze (although I got really confused for about 10 minutes on how to use it when I first started).  Set up and clean up are just a couple of seconds and we don't have to do the lesson at the table.  We can curl up in the bed together or outside on the porch or wherever, as long as the screen is readable and I can have the TM nearby.  Also, the kids love being able to leave up multiple words on the screen to compare.

Yup, that's about what I assumed!  Thanks for explaining all that!  :)

[PeterPan]

And this program really isn't for everyone.  Not all students will work well within this structure, for one thing.  While it HAS been highly successful with many, there are also many for whom it just doesn't work at all.  Spending that kind of money on something that might not work is just not very appealing or even an option for many.  

 

Also, not all kids need the detail that this program provides.  Other programs provide much of what Barton has, but don't have as much repetition, which not every child needs.  

...

Finally, even if this program IS a workable one for a student, if the parent is not willing or able to move slowly enough to allow the student to internalize the rules, then the student ends up having to rote memorize those rules and for many that just will not work.

 

Very interesting!  I guess we'll see when we get there.  He's sort of bright/fast and no-click at the same time, lol.  So to you the factor that decides between Barton and the pile of stuff I already own (AAS, SWR, HTTS, I sold my WRTR, shall we go on...) is the amount of repetition and the time it's willing to spend slowing down and getting concepts automatic...  Good to know.  Guess we'll see what he needs when we get there.  

[PeterPan]

 

Finally, even if this program IS a workable one for a student, if the parent is not willing or able to move slowly enough to allow the student to internalize the rules, then the student ends up having to rote memorize those rules and for many that just will not work.

 

Ok, now I'm curious.  How do you know when the student IS ready to move on?  What is it you're looking for?

[OneStepAtATime]

Ok, now I'm curious.  How do you know when the student IS ready to move on?  What is it you're looking for?

f they can read, orally spell and write words that use that rule without having to refer back to the rule then you can move on.  I know this may seem confusing.  When i first started it took a while to wrap my brain around this system, although I know others who think this just seems intuitive and get irritated at the TM and the DVDs.  I found them absolutely necessary for me to understand this system.  Once I did, though, and actually followed what Susan Barton says to do, and insisted that the kids follow the system even when some stuff seemed silly, things really moved much more smoothly and the kids and I both were much happier.  I will try to explain a bit about it so that this makes more sense.

 

1. Each level has a lesson for each rule or concept being taught for that level, as well as built in review of prior concepts/rules.  
2. There are usually between 10 and 14 lessons in each level after Level 2.  
3. Each lesson is broken into parts (usually A-Q) and each part is a different way of approaching that rule/concept.  
4. The student does some work orally, some with tiles, some is written in isolation, some is written in phrases, some is written in sentences, some is reading individual words, some is off of lists of words, some is reading in phrases, some is reading in sentences, and some is in reading passages, etc.  
5. If the student is going through a part and does not seem to be grasping the rule as presented in that part, the TM has additional words/sentences/tile activities that can be used for additional exposure or additional review of that component.  
6. Throughout the various parts of that lesson (and lessons can take just a couple of hours, or days or even a couple of weeks or more to complete, depending on the student and the lesson) the student is exposed to saying, reading, spelling orally and writing words that include the new concept as well as previous concepts/rules.  If, by the end of the lesson, the child is NOT fluently reading/writing the words (nonsense AND real words) in that lesson, then you repeat the lesson with additional words that follow that rule/concept until reading/writing IS fluent for that rule as well as prior rules.
7. Grammar, punctuation and sight words are also addressed, but very gently in the early levels.
8. This program is supposed to replace ALL other Language Arts programs for the student until after Level 4, at which point a formal writing program that is separate from Barton can be used (she recommends IEW but you can use many others).  
9. At the beginning of each new lesson you do an extra practice page of activities that reflect understanding of the previous lesson.  There are tons of extra practice pages and games available on the Barton site if the ones in the packet aren't enough.
10. There are many companies now that provide additional components if needed for things like card games, board games, readers, etc. that support the levels of Barton and can be used to liven up the lesson, do additional review, help solidify concepts, etc.  Some are free, some cost a little money and some cost a lot.  
11. At the end of each Level you have the option to give a Post Test to confirm they have internalized the rules for that level.  If they don't do well in certain parts, it is clear which part they need review and you just go back and review that particular section, not the whole level again.

I hope that answers your question.  Sorry this is so long.  You probably wanted a quick answer and I gave you a tome.  :)  

[Lecka]

I am going to just respond as someone not using Barton: why I think it is acceptable not to use it. What is my criteria.

 

1) my son passes Dibels

 

2) my son passes the Oral Reading Fluency screenings at school with "words-read-per-minute minus uncorrected mistakes" at a number that hovers around "50th percentile." Now this is not good, really, but if is enough for him to be "at grade level." As part of this -- this number jumps every few months. At present he is tracking with the jumps. He is making progress.

 

To me -- that is a standard that my son needs to be at. It is a minimum standard but also acceptable to me.

 

I also look at: how is he reading (when he reads out loud), what kind of words can he read easily, what kind of words can he spell easily.

 

He has internalized some spelling rules well enough that he can use them automatically. Some he has not.

 

For about the past year or so he has been working on fluency and on internalizing patterns. I have not used a formal program at home. I do a lot of supplementing things, though. He definitely is reading through words, through two syllables. He is reading through 3-syllable words with patterns he has learned (I have done the most common prefixes and suffixes with him, from a book I bought). He is just at a point where he has internalized reading those words.

 

There are a lot of spelling patterns he does not know at all.

 

I like his reading at school right now, I think he is getting appropriate instruction, and I am satisfied to supplement at home. They go through spelling patterns way too fast for him, and I let that go to some extent. I will probably focus more on spelling this summer.

 

I know I need him to be fluent in some patterns (reading) before moving on to more decoding. He can go slow because he started young. (As long as he keeps up with "on grade level.")

 

If he had not done phonemic awareness, he would not be able to use patterns at all. He did not understand what reading is supposed to be like -- the letters help you sound out a word. I think sometimes people do not understand that that can be a missing skill, they assume -- well, that is obvious. It is SO not obvious though, when it is not obvious.

 

Without that, needless to say his school instruction would continue to be garbage.

 

I wanted him to be on track with the school reading instruction and then supplement it, though, and that is a fairly reasonable thing to do if you can start with a 6-year-old. And, want to be in public school. (I am very pleased with Abecedarian Level B, for this.)

 

It is not that I think it is a better choice, or think my son is ahead of where he would be with Barton.

 

It is that I think it is a reasonable choice.

 

My number one book for this is Overcoming Dyslexia, and my takeaway is, oral reading fluency needs to meet benchmarks every time (they are like, fall, winter, spring). If not -- take action. Whatever the instruction is, it is not good enough, and it is a problem.

 

He has never made a jump, though. Everything is incremental and comes with a lot of practice.

 

I would never count on him falling behind and then magically catching up later. He needs a lot of repetition and that takes time. It takes him a long time to get fluent with new patterns.

 

I spoke briefly to a woman when my younger son was getting his autism eval, and she said, for someone like my older son, he will always need extra help with reading. (From his speech, and telling her how much work it took for him to get caught up and stay caught up.)

 

Frex I used to think from Overcoming Dyslexia, once my son had good phonemic awareness, and got caught up, he would just be caught up, and it would be like any other kid. He still needs extra help, though.

 

But basically the form it takes is less efficient than Barton (I think) but it is easier because it is less formal. So, that is an acceptable trade off to me as long as he can keep making progress on his oral reading. If he does not, I will be doing something about it, and Barton would be a high option.

 

He can never go fast, though, in being introduced to new patterns. It will not work. He has to practice and practice. It is not hard to tell -- I can see how it is hard for him to sound out, and then gets easier and easier. And then all of a sudden -- he can come to a word with the pattern and just read it.

 

I also do not ever ask him to read words he hasn't covered. He does now sometimes, and it is fine, but if he has not covered a pattern then in general he is not going to have any clue how to approach that word, really.

[OneStepAtATime]

Very interesting!  I guess we'll see when we get there.  He's sort of bright/fast and no-click at the same time, lol.  So to you the factor that decides between Barton and the pile of stuff I already own (AAS, SWR, HTTS, I sold my WRTR, shall we go on...) is the amount of repetition and the time it's willing to spend slowing down and getting concepts automatic...  Good to know.  Guess we'll see what he needs when we get there.  

 

Actually, one of the strengths of this program is that it goes back to the very basics of how we learn to read and tries to make those systems automatic for those that do not have automaticity.  The repetition, approaching everything in small, incremental segments and exposure in many different formats while integrating that exposure into reading and writing, along with continuous review of previous material so nothing is lost to disuse are all part of the process of achieving automaticity.  

 

On a side note, if you communicate with parents who have made it all the way through the program,  the majority seem to all be saying the same thing.  Don't step away for any length of time.  If you cannot afford a new level yet, or your child is still needing reinforcement of what they have already learned, keep reviewing with all the resources available in the TM and on the Barton site until you can start the next level.  

 

I am going to just respond as someone not using Barton: why I think it is acceptable not to use it. What is my criteria.

 

1) my son passes Dibels

 

2) my son passes the Oral Reading Fluency screenings at school with "words-read-per-minute minus uncorrected mistakes" at a number that hovers around "50th percentile." Now this is not good, really, but if is enough for him to be "at grade level." As part of this -- this number jumps every few months. At present he is tracking with the jumps. He is making progress.

 

To me -- that is a standard that my son needs to be at. It is a minimum standard but also acceptable to me.

 

I also look at: how is he reading (when he reads out loud), what kind of words can he read easily, what kind of words can he spell easily.

 

He has internalized some spelling rules well enough that he can use them automatically. Some he has not.

 

For about the past year or so he has been working on fluency and on internalizing patterns. I have not used a formal program at home. I do a lot of supplementing things, though. He definitely is reading through words, through two syllables. He is reading through 3-syllable words with patterns he has learned (I have done the most common prefixes and suffixes with him, from a book I bought). He is just at a point where he has internalized reading those words.

 

There are a lot of spelling patterns he does not know at all.

 

I like his reading at school right now, I think he is getting appropriate instruction, and I am satisfied to supplement at home. They go through spelling patterns way too fast for him, and I let that go to some extent. I will probably focus more on spelling this summer.

 

I know I need him to be fluent in some patterns (reading) before moving on to more decoding. He can go slow because he started young. (As long as he keeps up with "on grade level.")

 

If he had not done phonemic awareness, he would not be able to use patterns at all. He did not understand what reading is supposed to be like -- the letters help you sound out a word. I think sometimes people do not understand that that can be a missing skill, they assume -- well, that is obvious. It is SO not obvious though, when it is not obvious.

 

Without that, needless to say his school instruction would continue to be garbage.

 

I wanted him to be on track with the school reading instruction and then supplement it, though, and that is a fairly reasonable thing to do if you can start with a 6-year-old. And, want to be in public school. (I am very pleased with Abecedarian Level B, for this.)

 

It is not that I think it is a better choice, or think my son is ahead of where he would be with Barton.

 

It is that I think it is a reasonable choice.

 

My number one book for this is Overcoming Dyslexia, and my takeaway is, oral reading fluency needs to meet benchmarks every time (they are like, fall, winter, spring). If not -- take action. Whatever the instruction is, it is not good enough, and it is a problem.

 

He has never made a jump, though. Everything is incremental and comes with a lot of practice.

 

I would never count on him falling behind and then magically catching up later. He needs a lot of repetition and that takes time. It takes him a long time to get fluent with new patterns.

 

I spoke briefly to a woman when my younger son was getting his autism eval, and she said, for someone like my older son, he will always need extra help with reading. (From his speech, and telling her how much work it took for him to get caught up and stay caught up.)

 

Frex I used to think from Overcoming Dyslexia, once my son had good phonemic awareness, and got caught up, he would just be caught up, and it would be like any other kid. He still needs extra help, though.

 

But basically the form it takes is less efficient than Barton (I think) but it is easier because it is less formal. So, that is an acceptable trade off to me as long as he can keep making progress on his oral reading. If he does not, I will be doing something about it, and Barton would be a high option.

 

He can never go fast, though, in being introduced to new patterns. It will not work. He has to practice and practice. It is not hard to tell -- I can see how it is hard for him to sound out, and then gets easier and easier. And then all of a sudden -- he can come to a word with the pattern and just read it.

 

I also do not ever ask him to read words he hasn't covered. He does now sometimes, and it is fine, but if he has not covered a pattern then in general he is not going to have any clue how to approach that word, really.

I know that there are parents that use Barton with kids that are in school, but I think it would be very confusing to do so.  If what you are doing with your son is working, then Barton or Wilson or Lindamood Bell's systems, which are costly and very teacher intensive and might compete with what is being taught at school, might actually do more harm than good. I don't know.  I haven't done it that way.  It just seems it would be confusing to me.  If what you are doing is working, Lecka, then that's great!

 

Just to clarify, I am not advocating that all parents should use Barton or that anyone who doesn't is making a mistake.  Not in the least.  Please don't feel that I am.  As I have mentioned, this system is not for everyone.  Also, there are many systems out there that have shown great results, not just Barton.  I speak of Barton because I have direct, successful experience with it and wanted to make certain that OhElizabeth and anyone else reading this post who might be looking at a system like this are making a decision based on facts, not misinformation.  I may not have ALL the facts, but I do have some experience with this system and have spoken with others that have used it, some successfully and some not.  I really am not trying to force this system on others, just trying to share what I have seen and observed.

[PeterPan]

He can never go fast, though, in being introduced to new patterns. It will not work. He has to practice and practice. It is not hard to tell -- I can see how it is hard for him to sound out, and then gets easier and easier. And then all of a sudden -- he can come to a word with the pattern and just read it.

 

Lecka, I really appreciate your taking the time to explain this.  You're right, I had thought of reading as something that would just come.  It's interesting that you're saying that remediating phonemic awareness didn't make his reading problem disappear, that they had different trajectories.  That fits what someone else has been pointing out to me, that the two actually aren't totally connected and that there are a surprising number of kids who learn to read without proper/full phonemic awareness. 

 

And you're right, I thought it was just bam and done.  I'll buckle my seatbelt for the ride.  Thanks.   :auto: 

[PeterPan]

OneStep, that was an astonishing amount of information and much more than I knew!  You blew my mind as soon as you hit A-Q, lol.  Wow. It's everything one could dream of!  Well actually, I'm trying to figure out if there's anything kinesthetic in this or appealing to multiple modalities?  Or maybe the mom just flexes and applies it herself in the moment, knowing her kid?

 

I really appreciate your explaining that.  It helps me understand Barton a good chunk better.  I'm sure I'll be referring to this thread quite a bit as we plow through stuff and see what happens.  

 

I have no clue how long LIPS takes btw?  Even if we just go to the point Barton said to stop at, still it would vary with the kid?  I guess we'll just see.  I can't fathom us starting until after Thanksgiving, maybe not even until January.  I'm going to need some time to look at the materials and get things in order.  Or else I'll get excited and start sooner.  :D  Too many things and ideas!  

[merry gardens]

OneStep, that was an astonishing amount of information and much more than I knew!  You blew my mind as soon as you hit A-Q, lol.  Wow. It's everything one could dream of!  Well actually, I'm trying to figure out if there's anything kinesthetic in this or appealing to multiple modalities?  Or maybe the mom just flexes and applies it herself in the moment, knowing her kid?

 

I really appreciate your explaining that.  It helps me understand Barton a good chunk better.  I'm sure I'll be referring to this thread quite a bit as we plow through stuff and see what happens.  

 

I have no clue how long LIPS takes btw?  Even if we just go to the point Barton said to stop at, still it would vary with the kid?  I guess we'll just see.  I can't fathom us starting until after Thanksgiving, maybe not even until January.  I'm going to need some time to look at the materials and get things in order.  Or else I'll get excited and start sooner.   :D  Too many things and ideas!  

Yes, OneStepataTime explained Barton well. 

 

We jumped from LiPS to Barton as soon as we could because I'd purchased Barton before I discovered my son needed LiPS.  My son was eight at the time and it took a couple months to get there. I seem to recall that I bought Barton in September, then started LiPs in October.  (And had another baby in the midst of all that.)  It was while searching the internet about LiPS that I discovered the WTM forums--where I met this fabulous group of homeschooling mothers who offered support and help for each other as we faced similar challenges. :grouphug:

 

If I remember right, it was just after Christmas that ds moved onto Barton 1, so we spent about three months on LiPS, working it every day for as long as my son could do it. (less than an hour, usually around 30 mins.)  I felt much more confident having the scripting and guidelines of when to move onto the next step. There is some scripting in LiPS, but it's rather limited (at least in the edition of the manual that I have.)  With LiPS, after the initial teaching of the mouth feel to consonants and vowels, we kept practicing and practicing what seemed pretty much the same stuff of a few lists.  It's also pretty much the same stuff that is in the early levels of Barton, except with Barton it is all laid out so I just turned the page and if he did okay, then we'd turn the page again.  While some find it a drawback that the first levels of Barton are so small, for my child who had been struggling with reading for years, finishing those early levels represented that he was clearly making progress.  It gave us reasons to celebrate his success.  The scripting has lots of positive affirmations written into it, and it taught me how to teach a struggling reader with a positive attitude. :thumbup:  "Good job!"

 

With my dd, (who showed some of the early warning signs of dyslexia) we did LiPS as part of her pre-school work.  I didn't feel in a hurry to teach reading because she wasn't behind yet.   I added in pre-school activities with LiPS to reinforce letter shapes, etc. (like sand paper letters, writing in cornmeal, finger painting, those "dots" paints, play dough, etc.)

 

I use some of the techniques I learned with LiPS as we do Bartons, and I use some of the techniques I learned with Bartons as we do LiPS.  IF a child struggles with any particular concepts, I sometimes improvise with additional activities that still stick with the themes, concepts and wording used in those programs.  I like that they have a script-- and we follow the Barton script pretty closely--but I'm not afraid to personalize it to my children's needs and interests. 

 

I adjust our grammar and regular spellers that I use with my other children now to match the wording in Barton.  I used to supplement Barton in the early stages, (and that's why I'm familiar with the other Lindamood-Bell programs.) I don't do as much supplementation.  As I've studied more about dyslexia and gotten further through Barton, I've seen that she included many, many of those ideas in her program.  She doesn't put it all there in the beginning so it took us a while to get there, and since I buy it one unit at a time, I still don't know what we all we will find in units 9&10. I tried a regular speller and grammar book with my son this year, but we've since then gone back to Barton now.

[SandyKC]

That's really nice!  Too bad it is only for much younger kids.  No one realized my son needed anything like that until 2nd grade...  Still, that is great that they would offer that!

 

It's not really "only for much younger kids" -- My son didn't start receiving LiPS instruction until second grade and had it through third grade.  As a prior poster said.. it's a LOT cheaper to spend the $$$ on the program than it is to go for twice-weekly, paid sessions with an SLP.  We used a similar thought with me taking training in the Orton-Gillingham methodology.. It was a LOT cheaper for us to drop the $$$ dollars for my training and for me to be able to work with DS one-on-one throughout his training (because, truly, instruction goes beyond just the isolated 'how to decode words' instruction when you get into handwriting and spelling and mastery and fluency).  If we had to pay a tutor for all of the hours of instruction I directly provided for our boys, it would have been a LOT!

 

[merry gardens]

, I'm trying to figure out if there's anything kinesthetic in this or appealing to multiple modalities?  Or maybe the mom just flexes and applies it herself in the moment, knowing her kid?

...

Silly me, I got off on a tangent and our personal history here and I barely even touched on answering the question you asked that I initial set out to respond to.  Ah well, and I wonder why my kids wander off track--looks like they just take after their mother.

 

Both LiPS and Barton have some kinesthetic approaches.  With LiPS, they are lots and lots of goodies that can be manipulated.  We spread out the vowel circle with felts all over a blanket, so there was touching, texture and movement in mapping it out.  The LiPS program leaves lots of that selection up to the tutor to decide which to use. With Barton, there's obviously the physical tiles, which they use throughout the program unless you decide to get the tile app. For level 1 when we worked with just sounds, I sometimes substituted m&m's or Skittles for the colored tiles.  (Food, and chocolate in particular, is probably my favorite modalities.  :laugh: ) But besides the tiles, Barton's builds in arm waving, finger spelling and tapping syllables.  When you get to sight words, (the words that can't be sounded out) there's color.  And there's color coding on the tiles themselves.  And there's even some imagery.  But yes, as I mentioned earlier, I do flex a bit according to how my ds is doing.  I usually follow the script, repeat the script if needed, and if it's still not taking after than, that's when I start to get creative. 

 

Let me give you an example.  Even after a portion of LiPS, when my ds had come far along enough to pass the Barton screen, he still confused the short sounds of e and i .  Bartons works on vowel confusion too with tapping vowels repeatedly.  Anyway even with all of that, those confusions persisted.  It got in the way of reading simple words correctly SO, I worked off the ideas and key words we already used in Barton "itchy" and "Eddie".  I had him draw a great big "e" and we made it look like a boy "Eddie"--(key word for the short e) and then we sprayed mosquito spray all over it so "Eddie wouldn't be itchy".  I had him smell the e, moving his face along in the shape of the e. We did that everyday for about a week or two before the lessons. And if he made an "e" sound where it should be a short i, I pointed out the 'mosquito bite' meaning the dot on the i.  (It probably helped that we live in a place filled with mosquitos in summer so mosquito bites and mosquito spray are a way of life for us.) Eventually he got it and it seemed to be our mosquito spray craft project that helped it all to "click". He can recognize the difference.  :hurray:   I don't go off and create something entirely on my own--I play off what Barton already has.

 

With LiPS in a pre-schooler, I played much more frequently and went much slower than I'd done with my ds.  As SandyKC just noted, LiPS is really not just for young kids.  The material was very difficult for my ds when he was 8 1/2. To teach what's in LiPS to a 4 or 5 year old, I add a lot of pre-school/kindergarten crafts, projects and teaching methods appropriate for younger children.

[OneStepAtATime]

It's not really "only for much younger kids" -- My son didn't start receiving LiPS instruction until second grade and had it through third grade.  As a prior poster said.. it's a LOT cheaper to spend the $$$ on the program than it is to go for twice-weekly, paid sessions with an SLP.  We used a similar thought with me taking training in the Orton-Gillingham methodology.. It was a LOT cheaper for us to drop the $$$ dollars for my training and for me to be able to work with DS one-on-one throughout his training (because, truly, instruction goes beyond just the isolated 'how to decode words' instruction when you get into handwriting and spelling and mastery and fluency).  If we had to pay a tutor for all of the hours of instruction I directly provided for our boys, it would have been a LOT!

 

Hey, Sandy!  :)  Actually, I didn't mean that LiPS is only for younger kids.  I was referring to Heathermomster's response that they do LiPS with Kinder aged kids at school.  I was saying it was sad they were only offering it to younger students.  So many parents, teachers, etc. don't realize their kids even need this program until they are older.  I am like you, we didn't start our son with LiPS until 2nd grade.  We didn't know he needed it.  Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

 

Let me give you an example.  Even after a portion of LiPS, when my ds had come far along enough to pass the Barton screen, he still confused the short sounds of e and i .  Bartons works on vowel confusion too with tapping vowels repeatedly.  Anyway even with all of that, those confusions persisted.  It got in the way of reading simple words correctly SO, I worked off the ideas and key words we already used in Barton "itchy" and "Eddie".  I had him draw a great big "e" and we made it look like a boy "Eddie"--(key word for the short e) and then we sprayed mosquito spray all over it so "Eddie wouldn't be itchy".  I had him smell the e, moving his face along in the shape of the e. We did that everyday for about a week or two before the lessons. And if he made an "e" sound where it should be a short i, I pointed out the 'mosquito bite' meaning the dot on the i.  (It probably helped that we live in a place filled with mosquitos in summer so mosquito bites and mosquito spray are a way of life for us.) Eventually he got it and it seemed to be our mosquito spray craft project that helped it all to "click". He can recognize the difference.  :hurray:   I don't go off and create something entirely on my own--I play off what Barton already has.

Love your whole post, but this was great!  My son still has a little bit of trouble with e and i confusion.  We will try this!  :)

[SandyKC]

Hey, Sandy!   :)  Actually, I didn't mean that LiPS is only for younger kids.  I was referring to Heathermomster's response that they do LiPS with Kinder aged kids at school.  I was saying it was sad they were only offering it to younger students.  So many parents, teachers, etc. don't realize their kids even need this program until they are older.  I am like you, we didn't start our son with LiPS until 2nd grade.  We didn't know he needed it.  Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

 

Love your whole post, but this was great!  My son still has a little bit of trouble with e and i confusion.  We will try this!   :)

 

THANKS for the clarification! RIGHT ON!  (I wasn't connecting the dots with what you said, so I'm glad you clarified for me). ;-)

 

[PeterPan]

Merry, I think you've anticipated a lot of the questions I would have!!  Thanks for all that!!  And it's helpful to know that you've done LIPS multiple times with 4/5 yos. Lets me know I'm not crazy.  :D

[OneStepAtATime]

Merry, I think you've anticipated a lot of the questions I would have!!  Thanks for all that!!  And it's helpful to know that you've done LIPS multiple times with 4/5 yos. Lets me know I'm not crazy.   :D

Actually, this is helping me, too.  I am hoping that my mom can do a few things over again with LiPS with my son just to really solidify a couple of areas he still sometimes hitches up on...or I need to find time to learn the system myself...

 

OhElizabeth, I must say your post is giving me a ton of info!  There are so many great woman sharing on here.  Big hugs to everyone!

[Guest woinarow]

I used LIPS and Seeing Stars last year with my 13 year old who really struggles with spelling and reading. I had her tested at a local reading therapy center that used the this curriculum, but I couldn't afford the $7000 in therapy they recommended. I purchased the materials myself and, even though I'm not trained and didn't always know what I was doing, we saw tremendous improvements. We found that she had some definite learning gaps with sound blends as well as some speech issues. Her spelling is at grade level now where before she was several grade levels behind. This year, she has so much more confidence in her learning which has led to greater motivation in all subject areas. Her reading comprehension has improved and she reads voraciously for pleasure. In the past, she dealt with so much frustration that she would she just become angry and give up, and this year it's like teaching a different child. I would highly recommend it. As a matter of fact, I have both for sale on the swap forum if you're interested.

[LaughingCat]

DD ^{the younger}  (4 3/4) has developmentally appropriate speech issues, where she cannot pronounce various blends(st,pl,gr,sh,ch,th type thing)* - however she is (and has been since 3)  aware of those sounds and will correct you ("no,no") if you say the word back the way she does.    DD^{the older} did not differentiate like that at 5 or even older  - if you repeated back what you thought she said, even though it seemed like gobbledygook, she would say "yes".  ETA:  DD^{the older}  would say "yes" if you said the word correctly and no to an incorrect word - she knew what she was trying to say but she couldn't differentiate between her garbled word and the correct word.

 

I think I will give DD^{the younger} the Barton tests C and see what happens.

 

*she is getting to the top edge of developmentally appropriate for st,pl,gr - but she is also on the edge of being able to say them and is actively trying to do it - all on her own with no pushing (she will say stuff like "s" "t" "op", "s""t" "op" - trying to put the sounds together)

Way late, but rereading this thread reminded me that I never posted about my younger DD's Barton test.   First I could not get her focused on section 1 at all and I'm not sure she understood what was wanted (words vs. sounds) and she seemed very distracted during this section.  OTH she did fine on Section 2.   It may have been the squares vs. the clapping though as I abandoned the squares in section 3 because she didn't seem to understand what I wanted.   Doing Section 3 verbally however, was still an eye opener.  She struggled with hearing some of the sounds that she cannot yet say. So I found that in spite of the way she differentiates between what we are saying and what she is saying for some sounds (s blends especially), for others she does not differentiate at all.  After the screening I played a "same or different" game with her - saying 2 words and she would tell me "same" or "different" and she failed to differentiate between the same sounds there either.   For example, she could not distinguish between "vat" and "that".   Anyway, she failed Section 3 by 1, missing  f/v, ch/j, and f/th.

[OneStepAtATime]

Way late, but rereading this thread reminded me that I never posted about my younger DD's Barton test.   First I could not get her focused on section 1 at all and I'm not sure she understood what was wanted (words vs. sounds) and she seemed very distracted during this section.  OTH she did fine on Section 2.   It may have been the squares vs. the clapping though as I abandoned the squares in section 3 because she didn't seem to understand what I wanted.   Doing Section 3 verbally however, was still an eye opener.  She struggled with hearing some of the sounds that she cannot yet say. So I found that in spite of the way she differentiates between what we are saying and what she is saying for some sounds (s blends especially), for others she does not differentiate at all.  After the screening I played a "same or different" game with her - saying 2 words and she would tell me "same" or "different" and she failed to differentiate between the same sounds there either.   For example, she could not distinguish between "vat" and "that".   Anyway, she failed Section 3 by 1, missing  f/v, ch/j, and f/th.

Thanks for the update.  I was curious.  Since she is so young, do you think she just needs to be a bit older to take the test?  I haven't had to try administering the screening to a young child so I have nothing to compare your experience to.  I was wondering what your Mommy instincts are saying.  I ask because I have a friend in another state that is considering doing the Barton screening with her 4 year old.  I told her I thought she needed to be a little bit older, but she might want to talk to Susan Barton to confirm that....

 

What are your plans now, if you don't mind my asking?

 

I am finding that even though LiPS really helped my son, and he was able to pass the Barton screening after the LiPS remediation, he still has some odd glitches that really frustrate him at times.  For instance, if we are working on reading and the rules for the letter "C" at the beginning of a word, he knows when to read the soft "c" sound and when the "c" at the beginning of a word will say "k".  He knows the rules backwards and forwards, in fact.  If he is just writing the word, he gets it correctly when we are working on spelling.  However, when he is reading, if the first word in a list he is reading starts with a "s" sound for the letter c, he will use that same sound for the next word even if he knows it should be a "k" sound.  The reverse is also true.  Sometimes, because he knows he has this glitch, he will stop reading, stare at the word and I can see him struggle to MAKE his mouth say the "k" sound, like he is trying to override the subconscious control his brain has over speech and TELL himself what sound to say.  He hates it.  Don't know if we need more LiPS or just lots more practice or what....

[LaughingCat]

My Mommy instincts say she is going take off reading like a house on fire - but this is a good reminder that it won't hurt to make sure all the bases are covered.  I already had planned on going through many of the same things DD^{the older} has done anyway - just thinking it would go at a faster pace.  I haven't really planned on doing anything 'early' though - she is K4 right now, not K yet.  She knows all her letters and all their sounds basically  just from watching Letter Factory but she doesn't 'get' blending at all yet (we've only talked about it  very casually - i have not tried to 'teach it).

 

So I think the results are valid, but I also think that 4 probably is the one age where you can wait a year and have the results be different the next time you take it.  I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be buying LIPs based on these results at this age - but then again since I have it already I will be going through it with her next year even if she can pass the test :)

 

 

[Lecka]

Onestep --
This is much improved but my son had major bobbles like you describe.

He stayed at reading with me for a long time, and when he is reading with me and it happens, I prompt the sound by saying the sound. It usually helps him get unstuck. Sometimes it annoys him.

Unnecessary talking or explanation will distract him badly but a point and saying the sound usually won't. If that doesn't work I might prompt the first syllable or the entire word. I can tell if he is getting frustrated or if he is trying to get it (most of the time).

This has improved.... He has had time, practice, and speech therapy. Lots of fluency practice at an easier level. Lots of me reading books and then letting him pick them for reading practice.

I don't know if there is anything in particular.

If there is practice going between two patterns that he confuses, that can be good but also very frustrating. With word sorts, sorting between two patterns, helps him. If I help him look at the words and help with sorting, then at the end when he reads the words it seems like it has been a good thing to do. But it can be frustrating.

But we have had a lot of drama with how he wants to be helped and/or corrected. Only a certain way will work for him.

But it is vastly improved for him now. It is not gone, but it is a huge difference.

 

Edit:  It happens less often, and when it does happen, he can get over it more quickly. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Onestep --

This is much improved but my son had major bobbles like you describe.

 

He stayed at reading with me for a long time, and when he is reading with me and it happens, I prompt the sound by saying the sound. It usually helps him get unstuck. Sometimes it annoys him.

 

Unnecessary talking or explanation will distract him badly but a point and saying the sound usually won't. If that doesn't work I might prompt the first syllable or the entire word. I can tell if he is getting frustrated or if he is trying to get it (most of the time).

 

This has improved.... He has had time, practice, and speech therapy. Lots of fluency practice at an easier level. Lots of me reading books and then letting him pick them for reading practice.

 

I don't know if there is anything in particular.

 

If there is practice going between two patterns that he confuses, that can be good but also very frustrating. With word sorts, sorting between two patterns, helps him. If I help him look at the words and help with sorting, then at the end when he reads the words it seems like it has been a good thing to do. But it can be frustrating.

 

But we have had a lot of drama with how he wants to be helped and/or corrected. Only a certain way will work for him.

 

But it is vastly improved for him now. It is not gone, but it is a huge difference.

 

Edit:  It happens less often, and when it does happen, he can get over it more quickly. 

I was re-reading this entire thread and realized I never thanked you for the above, Lecka.  Appreciate the walk through of what you are doing with your son.  DD and DS made some huge leaps as we reviewed and did the post test for Level 3 of Barton but DS still sometimes has to force his mouth to make the sound he knows should be coming out of it. I don't know if that means something else is going on that we need additional remediation through LiPS for or an additional evaluation of some kind or what, but I will try what you were suggesting as we go through Level 4 and see if it helps.

[PeterPan]

In case anyone is interested, we finally started LIPS yesterday.  It is BRILLIANT!  Definitely pleased and I look forward to seeing what clicks we'll get in my ds' brain and understanding with this!

[OneStepAtATime]

In case anyone is interested, we finally started LIPS yesterday.  It is BRILLIANT!  Definitely pleased and I look forward to seeing what clicks we'll get in my ds' brain and understanding with this!

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:   I am so excited for you!  Thanks so much for the update.  I had been wondering.

 

We are prepping to start Level 4 of Barton on Monday.  DD was reading Divergent over Christmas and was so excited about finally being able to read a chapter book (and not a 2nd grade level chapter book) that she is actually excited about starting Level 4.  DS is excited, too, since he is finally reading more independently as well (though he still has glitches that his sister just doesn't).  Wish us luck!  Level 4 is the longest of the levels and I have noticed that several parents quit the program at this point, apparently because it can be pretty challenging.  The leaps in ability have been so wonderful over the past several months, though, that I am determined we will make it through.  :)

[Plink]

We are prepping to start Level 4 of Barton on Monday.

We start level 4 next week too! I can't decide if I am excited or scared to open that box after the kids go to bed tonight and watch the training videos.

[OneStepAtATime]

We start level 4 next week too! I can't decide if I am excited or scared to open that box after the kids go to bed tonight and watch the training videos.

Which is why we didn't start it this week.  :)  I just couldn't open the box over Christmas.  I needed to get back into intense tutor mode mentally.  Think I'm ready now.  I am going to look at the DVD's as soon as the kids go to bed.  Good luck!

 

And OhE, so glad you like LiPS.  If you have specifics that you like or don't like, could you post when you have time?  I may do LiPS with DS again, but since my mom did it the first time, not me, I will have a bit of a learning curve here...

[PeterPan]

Which is why we didn't start it this week.   :)  I just couldn't open the box over Christmas.  I needed to get back into intense tutor mode mentally.  Think I'm ready now.  I am going to look at the DVD's as soon as the kids go to bed.  Good luck!

 

And OhE, so glad you like LiPS.  If you have specifics that you like or don't like, could you post when you have time?  I may do LiPS with DS again, but since my mom did it the first time, not me, I will have a bit of a learning curve here...

I'm going to try to throw in some working memory work too, not necessarily during LIPS but just whenever.  Yesterday I got it in while we were swinging and brushing.  I had him cross body clap while swinging (wearing the weighted collar) and repeating back digit spans and letters.  That's some serious multi-tasking, hehe...  

[allymom]

I bought the manual on Ebay for $100 and made up any manipulatives I needed.  Some you could even copy from the manual (it wasn't intended for that, but there are pictures in there for the instructor to know what is going on, so I copied and whited out and copied some more.  It worked.)  I was very pleased with the program just with the manual.  My girls learned so much from it, it really helped us along in our learning to read journey.

[OneStepAtATime]

I bought the manual on Ebay for $100 and made up any manipulatives I needed.  Some you could even copy from the manual (it wasn't intended for that, but there are pictures in there for the instructor to know what is going on, so I copied and whited out and copied some more.  It worked.)  I was very pleased with the program just with the manual.  My girls learned so much from it, it really helped us along in our learning to read journey.

Yeah!  That's great!

 

Oh, for our own update, we got delayed but DS will be going through LiPS again starting this week, since Mom didn't take him through everything I think he needed from that program.  I will keep playing the Barton card games and doing some of the practice sheets from Level 3 of Barton with him periodically while he goes through LiPS and VT so he doesn't lose what he has already gained, but he will not be going on with Barton Level 4 at this time.

 

DD is struggling a bit with Level 4 of Barton.  I can see now why many find this level more challenging and sort of a big hill to climb over.  I had to re-watch the DVD's last night and we are going to start Level 4 over again.  We weren't that far into it anyway, but I think I didn't approach Lesson 2 very well.  I confused her.

 

OhE, how is LiPS going for you and DS?

[Plink]

Oh, for our own update, we got delayed but DS will be going through LiPS again starting this week, since Mom didn't take him through everything I think he needed from that program.  I will keep playing the Barton card games and doing some of the practice sheets from Level 3 of Barton with him periodically while he goes through LiPS and VT so he doesn't lose what he has already gained, but he will not be going on with Barton Level 4 at this time.

 

DD is struggling a bit with Level 4 of Barton.  I can see now why many find this level more challenging and sort of a big hill to climb over.  I had to re-watch the DVD's last night and we are going to start Level 4 over again.  We weren't that far into it anyway, but I think I didn't approach Lesson 2 very well.  I confused her.

 

Pay close attention to the stressed syllable work in LiPS.  It is much better easier for the kids to understand than the elastic trick in Barton.  I was actually really surprised at the difference.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Pay close attention to the stressed syllable work in LiPS.  It is much better easier for the kids to understand than the elastic trick in Barton.  I was actually really surprised at the difference.  

Thanks so much for the tip!  Really appreciate it, LibertyH!

[PeterPan]

Pay close attention to the stressed syllable work in LiPS.  It is much better easier for the kids to understand than the elastic trick in Barton.  I was actually really surprised at the difference.  

Haven't gotten to that yet, but thanks for the tip!   :)

 

Yeah!  That's great!

 

Oh, for our own update, we got delayed but DS will be going through LiPS again starting this week, since Mom didn't take him through everything I think he needed from that program.  I will keep playing the Barton card games and doing some of the practice sheets from Level 3 of Barton with him periodically while he goes through LiPS and VT so he doesn't lose what he has already gained, but he will not be going on with Barton Level 4 at this time.

 

DD is struggling a bit with Level 4 of Barton.  I can see now why many find this level more challenging and sort of a big hill to climb over.  I had to re-watch the DVD's last night and we are going to start Level 4 over again.  We weren't that far into it anyway, but I think I didn't approach Lesson 2 very well.  I confused her.

 

OhE, how is LiPS going for you and DS?

I'm glad to hear you're getting back into it!  We're working slowly.  Read: we do a little, clean house, do a little more, play...  The lessons sort of surprise me, because you'll have one with TONS of stuff.  I suppose with an older dc with no attention, you'd plow through that.  With one, it's challenging even to get through one letter of it.  That's a teaching technique, obviously.  Anyways, I find myself reviewing the sections to make sure things stick.  So we've done /p/, /b/ a couple times and then last week we hit /t/, /d/ a couple times.  Once we do /k/, /g/, we'll take the vertical path instructions I think.  With SWR, they want you to do things faster.  With him though, I'm not sure faster gets us anywhere.  I'm not even SURE it's clicking.  You sort of have to get him in the right mood, the right time of day, the right energy level, the right amount of focus.  It's not like I'm sitting down with a 6 yo girl who just blows through stuff.  It's more like asking an eel to jump through hoops in a circus.  At some point you ask yourself if your eel would turn into a better jumper, maybe a bunny or frog or something, if you waited.  Then you wonder if he's an eel because you haven't trained your eel.  Then you wonder if your eel would be a better eel if he were in a more appropriate aquarium.  Then you lose your mind.   :lol:  

 

So he's 5 but called K4.  He's just starting to hear initial sounds in words and JUST starting to make rhyming jokes that dd made when she was 4 1/2.  So if I add a year to when dd started reading, that would be the EARLIEST I'd expect him to even being close to ready to read.  Even then, I might need another 6 months for gender.  I'm going to try to rearrange our work space today.  Somehow we've ended up working on the dining table, sprawled out all over, instead of in a stable space.  I love being upstairs, now down in the basement, so that's my own mental patheticness, lol.  Anyways, does that make sense?  I can't rush it, and I won't.  If I were getting clicks I'd be all over it, doing it every day.  Instead it's more like nudge a little, see what happens.  As I think about it, I think the DeGaetano worksheets we're doing right now are getting him more forward movement.  The word recall and working memory stuff we're doing seems to be what is making rhyming click because he has been going around making up his own rhymes, something he never used to do.  The worksheets have him saying, finding, using working memory, etc. with little pictures like bee on key, key on bee, etc.  So he's doing lots of discriminating and rhyming and working memory, all together.  And come to think about it, rhyming, initial and final consonants, these sounds are precursors.  It's not like LIPS comes along and repairs years of phonemic awareness.  The ability to hear all the sounds in the word is the LAST in a series of steps, not the first.  LIPS just addresses that one thing.  

 

I think I'm saying I don't think he's ready.  I can say that publicly.   :lol:  I don't know how to put my finger on it, and I'm not meaning to be lazy.  I'm just saying I don't want to do things that cause stress, don't click, or don't feel right.  I'm not so terribly astute as to pick up little non-verbal clues on this.  I just get sorta vague, overall impressions, and to me the vague, overall impressions are that it's not clicking.  It's not the program, because the program is brilliant.  It's not the appropriateness of the methodology, because I think it's right on.  It's just that when you do it with him it's sort of harder than it ought to be.  That's it.  It just feels harder for him than it ought to be.  And I'm willing to wait a little bit (a lot bit), play our sound dominoes, do our other auditory discrimination stuff and word recall stuff, and come back to it.  There is NO rush, and with as bright and compliant as he is, I feel very confident that at the right time it will all click.  After all, that's a lot to think about at once (hear the sound, how are you making the sound, etc.).  A few months could make a huge difference on him.  It's only in the last couple weeks he has even started hearing initial consonants.  It's ok to take our time.  It's why I'm not calling him a K5er till next year, to give him time.  So he watches the History Channel and can tell you about the Trojan Horse, but on this he just needs time.

 

There, now I'm gonna cry.  It's not like you can just force things and make them happen.  I think around 7-8, maybe 9-10, all these skills will click.  You can just see the writing on the wall.  There's no other way to extrapolate the math of what I'm seeing.  No amount of forcing on my part changes that, and I will not force.  With him, I'd actually rather WAIT TOO LONG on teaching him to read and come in at the end and teach him in one fell swoop, when he's really, really ready.  This is a kid who thinks it's normal to listen to Swiss Family Robinson and the unabridged Three Musketeers before bed.  He has no vision problem, no vocabulary problem, and when he's ready to read all that language will be there to draw on.  Most kids read to learn, and he's going to learn and then later read.  That's what I think.  So yes I'm doing it, but very gingerly, very slowly, very tentatively, because I'm not seeing the click I want to see.

 

 PS.  We're doing phonics with Snap Circuits.  I got him the biggest set (700+, wow!) and all the pieces have letters, hehe.  The poor child spends tons of time scanning the box for Ws and Rs and... to build the things in the books.    :lol:  He's bonkers for it and really GETS it.  That's why I say I'm NOT going to turn this into some you're defective dynamic, because he's NOT.  The kid builds guns all day, likes snap circuits and history and...  He just happens not to hear sounds very well.  I'm doing what I can, but his day is going to be 80% positive and only 10% remediation, not the reverse.  The other 10% is the small amount of time he allows for quiet time.   :D

[LaughingCat]

OhE, fwiw, a week ago I tried out the p and b sounds with DD^{the younger} - just turned 5.  This is the DD I thought was going to 'get' all this stuff so quickly because she is so precociously verbal (playing around with rhyming started at very early 4 for instance  - DD ^{the older} didn't 'get' rhyming in a play around with it kind of way until last year for comparison).   And she really wants to be able to read too.  Anyway, DD^{the younger} did not get it at all.    I used part of chapter 1 from Logic of Engish Foundations (free online - includes b,p, f, v) - because it seemed  LIPS lite in a scripted little kid friendly kind of a way - but DD bombed almost all the questions.  Which had no 'expected' answer ("I don't know" is what I consider 'bombing' a no expected answer question).     By comparison she aced another part of the same chapter about putting 2 words together to make a 3rd word ('cow' 'boy' - child says 'cowboy').   

 

DD^{the older} was extremely excited about the whole thing (because she's thinks DD^{the younger} is going to get reading without having to do any of the extra stuff she has had to do).  So she also tried to get DD ^{the younger} to get it - no dice. 

 

As an aside - DD ^{the older} did completely blow through LIPS but she had had a lot of phoneme/phonics/morpheme work at that point, from the school and then from me.  It's was never that DD didn't know her phonemes/phonics but she just couldn't get the right choice out as fast or as perfectly as she needed to (I know many people would say that shows she didn't actually know them - but I don't agree with that anymore)    So when we first did LIPS for the vowel circle  - she was telling me what the sound was for a letter or pair were before I could say anything.  And she gave me a full lecture on what a 'schwa' was when I first brought it up.  So it was really only the focus on the lips/tongue/air that was new to her.    

[PeterPan]

Well Laughing Cat, that's awesome to hear!  Then I won't think I'm crazy!!  :D  Whether it's genes showing up in our kids or what, reality is you can't push development.

 

That's interesting to hear about your older.  See I was thinking about that some more.  I think there's a lot of benefit to the *exposures* to stuff, even when they don't click.  It's like a seed gets planted, a concept, and their bright little brains churn on them and come back later, ready to have it all click.  So I don't mind introducing, but I'm not going to fret/fuss/worry about it. I'm really glad you shared about your dd, thanks.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Well Laughing Cat, that's awesome to hear!  Then I won't think I'm crazy!!   :D  Whether it's genes showing up in our kids or what, reality is you can't push development.

 

That's interesting to hear about your older.  See I was thinking about that some more.  I think there's a lot of benefit to the *exposures* to stuff, even when they don't click.  It's like a seed gets planted, a concept, and their bright little brains churn on them and come back later, ready to have it all click.  So I don't mind introducing, but I'm not going to fret/fuss/worry about it. I'm really glad you shared about your dd, thanks.   :)

Yes!  Seeds planted but if they aren't ready, pushing may not be a good idea AT ALL!  I agree.  You aren't crazy.

 

And Laughing Cat, that really is interesting.  Thanks so very much for sharing!  

 

Learning is so complicated.  It really is NOT cut and dried.  We aren't manufactured in a factory and we aren't computers.  Hearing what other parents are observing and experiencing with their own kids is SUCH an eyeopener.  

 

Rambling.  Sorry.  Just had a moment to skim through this and wanted to respond because so much of this resonates with me.  I learn something every time I log on here.  

 

Best wishes to all.

[Χά�ων]

My local dyslexia school offers a LIPs class to kindie aged children over the summer.

 

The local children's hospital offers it in their dyslexia clinic. The dyslexia clinic is only available for children ages 4-6. 

That's really nice!  Too bad it is only for much younger kids.  No one realized my son needed anything like that until 2nd grade...  Still, that is great that they would offer that!

See, I do not think it is nice that it is offered only to young children. Where do the older kids go? Dyslexia is not magically cured when they enter school.

 

 

*Spoken from the POV of a mom who has been told her child will never read and has been denied the services that were outlined as something that might help due to his age.

[OneStepAtATime]

The local children's hospital offers it in their dyslexia clinic. The dyslexia clinic is only available for children ages 4-6. 

See, I do not think it is nice that it is offered only to young children. Where do the older kids go? Dyslexia is not magically cured when they enter school.

 

 

*Spoken from the POV of a mom who has been told her child will never read and has been denied the services that were outlined as something that might help due to his age.

I agree.  I am glad they are offering it, but so many issues that show up are not actually correctly identified or addressed until a child is older (if ever).  DD wasn't diagnosed until mid-5th grade.  DS was in 2nd and it was his dysgraphia that finally tipped us that he needed evals.  The school never clued in with either child.  Yet LiPS at kinder level would have been great, at least for DS, maybe DD, too.  Having a clinic only available to younger students really is kind of sad.  Again, glad they have it at all, since most don't, but it would have been nice to include all age ranges...

[Lecka]

Lips is also used for articulation.  It could be that the clinic is aimed at kids who have really poor articulation and are getting referred by SLPs.  

 

That is kinda the situation my son had, though we got referred to private therapy, and he did not have the actual Lips program, but I think a similar kind of program.

 

He was hearing sounds poorly enough that he was missing speech sounds, and was having behavior problems.

 

One I remember -- crying in the car, b/c he said "wit" and I thought he was saying "witch" but he was saying "brick."  

 

He elided every -l and -r blend to w.  He used "t" for any k sound or blend with t.  

 

His IEP was over a page of speech goals for articulation.  

 

When we filled out the forms for the speech clinic, they wanted examples of problems he was having in multiple domains, academic, social, and others.  It was no problem.  He had trouble playing with other kids b/c they would ignore him b/c they didn't know what he was saying.  Etc.  I was warned that he might "shut down" and quit trying to talk, b/c he was starting to show signs of that to the SLP.  

 

So I do think -- he would be someone who would have gotten the referral, if we lived there.  

 

i think it is not right not to have other options for older kids, but if this class is aimed at kids in my son's range, just because it says "Lips" it might not be being taught in a way appropriate to kids with different needs.  B/c it really is used primarily for articulation sometimes.  My son's speech therapy did not get him to the point of blending and segmenting -- that was not the scope.  It got him very far in speech/language and in definite foundational skills for reading, but if beginning reading is blending --- it did not get him anywhere near that.  

 

Queen Goddess -- I am appalled they are treating you guys so poorly.  I am so sorry.  From what you have said I think your son's speech/language issues are more severe than my son's.  He did not have very significant motor problems.  He had a little, and he still has "cluttered" speech, but his motor challenges were not bad at all.  Really only with his tongue and getting the back of his throat to make the k/g sounds.  He had trouble bringing his tongue down for "l" but not very bad.  

 

My son was identified with Dibels, but then the school doesn't do anything about it (this is my take).  They have the screening but then the early intervention is really minor.  Nowhere near enough to meet my son's needs, and I was told to "retain" him because the teacher said "she understood I was too busy to work with him at home."  This was after I had tried to make him memorize sight words off of flashcards, and after I had tried a computer program I thought would be the way to go, and spent a huge amount of time working with him.  

 

So I am very glad I was able to start with him while he was young, but it was 90% because he was really failing in Kindergarten, and I gave up on the school, because I was getting messages that they thought he was a child from "that kind of home" where "his parents weren't going to do anything with him" so "school couldn't catch him up."  This because my husband is in the Army and was deployed that year, and I had two younger kids at home.  

 

I don't feel that way about his school now -- I don't know if it was only that teacher?  But his teachers since then have been wonderful and the counselor is wonderful.  But I think his K teacher gave up on him and wrote us off as a low-class family.  It was really clear in talking to her.  

 

I am glad I found out early and gave up on the school early and started working with him and getting helpful information early ----- but it is really not pleasant to have a child who is totally failing in Kindergarten and seeing the teacher write him off.  If he had just been identified with Dibels and gotten help -- that would have been great.  But that is really not how it was.  He was not getting by.  

 

I have regret I didn't realize earlier in the year and pull him from school, but I didn't realize.  And then -- he is the kind of kid who likes school, and I knew more about the things he did like.  

 

His K teacher, when we said we were not going to retain him (my husband refused, he was retained in 1st grade for reading and he fell behind again early in his 2nd time through, and it was very hard for him).... this teacher said "for K parents can do social promotion, but he will just be retained at the end of 1st grade, and then it is up to the school, you can't do anything about it."  

 

When we filled out our form about "will you attend this school next year" she was really rude also, she said "oh, I thought you might be moving" (since we are military).  It was just unbelievable.  She said it like -- oh, hoped we could get rid of you.  My husband actually had stabilization here, and when I said that, she frowned.

 

So we are very fortunate, that my son did get referred for speech, and that someone told me about Overcoming Dyslexia and Barton (an acquaintance told me "read this book" and her son used Barton).  But for us at least -- finding out early was not a nice process.  It could have been, I think, if things were different here, and he got actual early intervention after his Dibels screening.  But -- it was something I would not wish on anyone.

 

I think we are better off in a way, that the teacher was rude to my face, b/c that did get me going.  But it was pretty bad.  This teacher also told me she was going to go talk to his 1st grade teacher before school started, and tell her about my son, and how she had told us to retain him, etc etc.  I was worried about that the whole summer, I thought he was going to show up with the teacher having a bad impression of him before he walked in the door.  But it turned out that the 1st grade teacher wasn't like that and my son had a great year with her.  

 

I am really appalled by the age limit, though.  I wonder if people realize they are talking about real children.  I just hate it.   

[Heathermomster]

Thankfully, I didn't have problems with my son's school until 5th grade. That year the school had a new elementary administrator with teachers she pulled from her former school. Oh, boy..That situation went south quickly. The gal didn't believe in accommodations. I was peeved at the time, but yanking DS from the classroom was such a BLESSING. Her attitude was the wake-up call that I needed to go about making serious course corrections wrt to son's education.

 

The LiPs class that I mentioned up thread was very expensive. Wilson tutors in my area will teach LiPs to students for a fee.

 

OhE, go as slow as you need for DS. He has to map the sounds to the letters. In previous threads, Geodob mentioned using pictures of objects to practice quickly grouping similar things. Over the weekend, I rediscovered a game we have called Spot It and I thought of you. A link follows:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Spot+it

[LaughingCat]

Yeah, I got the whole "you're obviously not doing anything with her at home" too - even got a handout advising me to start reading aloud to DD and taking her to the library when I asked for things to do at home.   I wish I had said "Honey, if that was all it took, she would already be a reading prodigy!" 

 

FYI - Spot It Jr. has less/larger pictures for younger kids