Teacher is gonna hate me - a little AR dispute...

[SKL]

Today I got an email from my kids' teacher.  Not an everyday thing, usually bad. :/ 

 

She says Miss A is upset because she is forcing her to read lower-level AR books because her last few AR tests have had low scores.  She asked me to convince Miss A that this is good for her.

 

My response was that I've been closely monitoring the AR scores and the pattern is that she gets lower scores on the easier books and higher scores when reading at/above grade level.  I had advised her to NOT read such easy books.  I have never seen those comprehension quizzes, but I can only assume that it's harder to gauge "comprehension" on nonsense books or books that have no plot.  She usually gets around 90% on chapter books and is all over the board on "easy" books.

 

They just announced a "motivation" yesterday.  If you get all of your required AR points by __date, you get a little candy bar.  If you get 2x the required points by then, you get a big candy bar.  WELL did I mention Miss A is my "candy girl"?  She is probably trying to zip through books to rack up points.  She is testing on books she's read in class because these have not come home.  (Except for one that she brought home last Tuesday and tested on the following Monday - she probably forgot the story by then.)

 

I was planning to have a talk with Miss A anyway because her strategy on AR needs to change.  However, I was planning to tell her to STOP reading "easy" books because that always gets her in trouble.  She should just read more in aftercare.

 

I also mentioned that Miss A's foul mood could be because she was up late last night doing some make-up work that I discovered in her bag at the end of the evening.  Teacher sealed it in the parent info envelope and my sister had picked up the girls and taken them out to dinner/shopping, so of course it wasn't seen until late; and it said it needed to be turned in today.  Of course I could have just said "we'll turn it in ___ [later date] but we have a full schedule until next Wednesday.  Bah.

 

Conferences are next week.  I can hardly wait . . . .

[briansmama]

Why do they have to give prizes for reading? It bothers me so much. Reading is it's own reward, and your dd should be able to read books at her level, not boring easy readers now that she's moved beyind those. Don't teachers read up on current research that shows rewards and consequences are not how you motivate learning in children?

 

Ours just started school and while they love it, I'm having a hard time with all of the treats given as rewards for learning when education and reading and learning to communicate (candy is given for spelling) should be it's own reward.

[LaughingCat]

I have seen some of those tests and some of the questions were so specific it's ridiculous IMO - designed for someone with a good memory for minor details.

 

The problem with AR rewards (in my experience w/DD) isn't the fact that there is a reward - it's that it leads to poor reading habits like racing through books and picking books based on their AR level or points instead of interest.

 

What worked best for me was to set my own AR/reading (not just AR based) reward system based on my goals for DD not the generic class based goals the teacher set up.  DD would still work hard to meet the teacher's goal, but my system at least helped her to use more appropriate tactics when choosing books and reading them.

[SKL]

I do think they overdo the treats, especially sugar.  Of course I am biased because my kid has problems with sugar.  But it's not like they need the calories either.

 

Miss A was recently telling me how proud she was to be able to select books from more areas of the library than some of the kids.  She is a good reader.  Not awesome, but just fine for early second grade.  On individual tests, she has consistently tested above average for her grade.  I can totally understand why it would crush her to be told she can't read well enough.

 

Teacher's exact quote (excerpted):  "I need you to try and explain to her that for now she needs to read at a lower level and demostrate to Mrs. ___ that she can."  That would put me in a foul mood too.  :/

[SKL]

I have seen some of those tests and some of the questions were so specific it's ridiculous IMO - designed for someone with a good memory for minor details.

 

The problem with AR rewards (in my experience w/DD) isn't the fact that there is a reward - it's that it leads to poor reading habits like racing through books and picking books based on their AR level or points instead of interest.

 

What worked best for me was to set my own AR/reading (not just AR based) reward system based on my goals for DD not the generic class based goals the teacher set up.  DD would still work hard to meet the teacher's goal, but my system at least helped her to use more appropriate tactics when choosing books and reading them.

 

Would you care to share some of your reward criteria?

 

[SKL]

Why do they have to give prizes for reading? It bothers me so much. Reading is it's own reward, and your dd should be able to read books at her level, not boring easy readers now that she's moved beyind those. Don't teachers read up on current research that shows rewards and consequences are not how you motivate learning in children?

 

Ours just started school and while they love it, I'm having a hard time with all of the treats given as rewards for learning when education and reading and learning to communicate (candy is given for spelling) should be it's own reward.

 

Yeah, isn't it amazing that her comprehension average took a huge dive *after* they announced a reward?  There was no reward for the 1st semester and all was fine.

 

I just hope the teacher is willing to see what I am saying.

 

I wonder if I should graph out the relationship between reading level and comprehension score that my kid has gotten over the past year.  LOL.  Would that be overkill?  ;)  All the evidence says she can read above average, so I'm having a hard time seeing any benefit to her going back and reading 1st grade crap.  Way to crush a kid's spirit.  The thing is, she of all people needs to be encouraged, not discouraged.  Bah.  And she was just starting to *like* reading for pleasure.  Bah again.

 

[SKL]

OK so I just checked the online grades and she has this new thing in reading called "work relationship" (WTH) and she has a 42% F.  (Sister got 100% A.)

 

For reference, she just brought home an honor roll report card yesterday.  She had an A in reading and a 3.6 GPA overall.

 

WTH?

 

 

ETA:  Today the online grade program doesn't say "work relationship," it says "word relationships."  LOL.  Not sure if it was my dyslexia or the  school's typo that messed with me yesterday.

[AMJ]

How can she demonstrate her level of reading ability if she isn't allowed to read the books she reads well because they are deemed "too difficult"?  <sigh of exasperation> 

 

DD9 here reads easily and seems to love it.  DD12 has had issues over the years that made it more difficult, and so has developed the notion that it is a chore to be suffered through and avoided whenever possible.  Teachers and family have all tried rewards to encourage progress and losses to discourage trying to get out of work, but all that accomplished was cementing the notion that it is all work and not enjoyable.  She enjoyed "rewards" when she got them and was disgruntled when she lost privileges for not getting work done, but never cared enough to really want to change.  And with her, the only way to get her to change is for her to WANT to.  At age 7 she taught herself how to wake-board at the beach, out of sheer stubborn determination (she fell a LOT, which would normally have killed any interest, but she kept going).  When she wants something there is no stopping her.  When she actively does NOT want something, there is no budging her.

 

DD12 is starting to read more on her own volition, but she's choosing a lot of rather easy stuff because she wants brain candy.  I'm okay with this during their own time (anything to get her interested and more willing to read), but I also need to get her comfortable selecting books closer to her own age level, since they contain the stuff she's actually interested in.  I've been trying to brainstorm how to do this, and I think I came up with a good idea to try in November:  NaNoReaMo.

 

Basically, while DD9 and I will be writing for NaNoWriMo DD12 will be assigned novels to read.  I might let her have some say in which novels, but there will be a lot of parent choice in the matter (DH and/or I need to discuss each book afterwards to get her to think about them, so the books have to be something we have read or something we have time to read, too).  She will have the (seemingly easy, at least to me) goal of 1 novel per week for the month of November.  No written reports, but discussions with Mom or Dad as a way of checking that she's actually reading and not just turning pages, and to judge her interest level for further selections.

 

The only way I can see getting her more confident in her own reading is to make her read more.  Such is the case whenever she says she can't do something or isn't good at it -- being made to persist usually gets her through the rough patch and she starts to find the fun.  I think largely to date the stuff she has been reading has had story lines that are too simplistic, so I intend to complicate matters.  I think she will find them more interesting.

[Miss Tick]

I'm biased towards data, but I say definitely graph it! Then it isn't your perception against hers. Also maybe have a plan, like one month at the higher level to see if you are right?

[eloquacious]

I find that my son also gets things wrong when they are too easy for him, because he glosses over and doesn't pay attention. This is in math, but still...same principle. I would definitely meet with this teacher and discuss it face to face, because a lot can be done in person that might be hard to do on the phone/via email. 

[SKL]

Unfortunately I tend to be very stupid in face-to-face meetings.  LOL.

 

I am thinking hard about this.  Obviously I believe the girl should be reading interesting chapter books because she *can* and she *wants to.*  How do you even argue with that?  But on the other hand she has to improve her relationship with her teacher.

 

It would be nice if we could do one thing for the teacher at school, and another thing at home for a while.  Unfortunately, we really don't have time for that.

 

I never thought I'd see this kid getting in trouble for wanting to read more challenging stuff.  Honestly, my head is spinning right now.

[SKL]

This has seriously ruined my day.  Now I have a headache.  Bah.

[SKL]

OK, the saga continues.  The teacher emailed me back to explain that it wasn't a big change (AR range went from 1.9-3.1 to 1.7-2.7), but Miss A was bummed because she lost the opportunity to read the 3rd grade books for AR points.  Things got ugly when the teacher told all the kids to choose a book at the lower end of their AR range.  I assume she was upset because her level went down while her friends' probably went up.  Her main reading buddy, who was on the same level as Miss A last quarter, is exactly a year older.  However, Miss A does not think in those terms.

 

Anyhoo.  I'm sorry she's hurting, but she will have to suck it up for a little while and blow the teacher away with awesome scores if she wants an exception.  ;)

 

It's good to know that challenging books might be a "currency" for her IYKWIM.

[eloquacious]

 

I never thought I'd see this kid getting in trouble for wanting to read more challenging stuff.  Honestly, my head is spinning right now.

 

 

I get that... totally frustrating. My nephew got busted back a few levels on RAZ Kids because apparently the web site has a recording feature, and he was recording himself when he asked his mom how to pronounce some words. He was totally being lazy, because he knew the words... and in fact, when she told him to read them himself, he did. Nevertheless, his teacher (who can listen to these recordings) heard the hesitation and said he should go back a few levels. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I know this must be frustrating.  I had issues with some of the AR questions myself and questioned the Director of my kids' old school as to who created the questions.  She told me privately that when she used to teach at the school in the lower grade levels, she was shocked when a lot of kids were getting such low scores on certain AR books that seemed simple to her.  When she went back and checked the questions, she found them very poorly written, but she suspected it was because there was so little material to work with to actually create a good question from, that the questions were actually often over very tiny details that had virtually nothing to do with the story (ex.: What color was the table?).  My sister-in-law, who teaches middle school, found the same thing.  The first time one of her students tested on a book that she had loved as a teenager and still re-reads periodically, she was looking over his should to make certain he was decoding the words to the questions correctly (he had some issues with decoding) and realized that even she didn't know the answer to the question being asked.  The question was asking what time the postman dropped by the house.  My sister-in-law didn't even remember there being a postman, much less what time he came by.  She re-read the book, found the reference and was utterly disgusted.  There was a postman, but it was a single sentence reference that had nothing to do with the main story line and was never important to the plot.

 

My brother-in-law (sister-in-law teacher's brother) had to fight his son's school to allow his son to read a 5th grade level reader in 2nd.  The child was incredibly advanced in reading and was getting frustrated with being forced to read only 2nd grade level readers because the teacher wanted him to learn how to read basic stories first, since she was convinced that the only way to read was through slow progression, strictly limited by age and grade level even though, at home, my nephew was already reading 5th grade level books.  The school was backing up the teacher's decision.  My brother-in-law was polite but firm and tried to show that reading the basic books with the basic plots was killing his son's interest in reading.  The teacher finally agreed to allow a trial period of 2 weeks.  If he was able to test well on the more advanced books, he could continue to read them and test on them, but he had to do well on at least 85% of the books.  He did fine and they finally allowed other students to also read more advanced books if they chose to.

 

Maybe the teacher would be willing to try her out on a more advanced book that she is actually interested in reading?  Just to see what the scores would be?  And charting the previous scores for her doesn't seem out of the question to me.  A lot of my family are teachers and they will admit that running a class is a lot of work.  They sometimes miss the big picture because of all the trees.  She might be very willing to listen if you can show a pattern. 

[SKL]

I think now that I have had a two-way email exchange with the teacher and talked to my daughter, we are mostly on the same page.  Teacher says she doesn't think Miss A is ready for 3rd and 4th grade books yet.  Miss A thought that she was being relegated to 1st grade books.  However, everyone seems to be happy if she reads 2nd grade level chapter books.  I guess the way teacher explained it was taken negatively by Miss A.  When I talked to her and assured her that she would still be allowed to read chapter books (including Junie B Jones books, LOL), she was fine.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yeah!  Glad it is working out. 

[kiwik]

I don't understand why it is acceptable to offer chocolate as rewards? Surely there is something more suitable.

[beishan]

No candy is allowed in our district. I had some much trouble packing my son's snack before because the district only allows veggie, popcorn, fruit/juice, milk, cheese, and yogurt. They do not even allow cracker or fruit snack.

[SKL]

I agree about the Junie B dialect.  I assume that's why she generally gets 90% on Junie B books but she often gets 100% on other similarly-leveled chapter books.   But for whatever reason, Junie B has turned her on to reading in greater quantity, so I can't complain too much.  I'm sure she will branch out sooner rather than later.  ;)

 

As for AR, I have mixed feelings.  I still think it has been overall positive for us, though the external material motivators tend to be negative.  I usually don't even tell my kids about the incentive stuff that comes home in the parent envelope.  But maybe it is a good thing for some kids.

[Paige]

I hate AR and have never had a good relationship w/teachers about it. DS liked to read chapter books. He liked to read things not on the AR list. Teacher complained and said he'd be better off reading several easy books that give him AR points than 1-2 big books. How is that encouraging education? I said I would not encourage that and he could read what he wanted.

 

With DDs, they were told they had to read lower level books because they were poor spellers! What?? Teacher acknowledged that DDs were excellent readers and could read chapter books but that their AR score was based on the entire language arts spectrum, so since they were miserable spellers, they could only read picture books. They weren't even allowed to check out the other books from the school library. You know what happened? They quit reading chapter books at home because they said they weren't good enough readers anymore. Now we homeschool. She went from reading picture books with controlled vocab at school to the original Princess and the Goblin at home.

 

I would tell the teacher that AR is not my problem. My child will read what she wants and test on what she wants and worry about her own AR score if she cares. If they won't allow her to pick out her own books, I'd request a conference with the principal. I'd be polite about it. I wish schools allowed parents to opt out of AR for their kids.

[SKL]

I think your thoughts about AR are good.  I also respect the teacher's opinion.  I will try to hear her with an open mind on Wednesday and try to be sensible with my response.  (Not one of my strong points in a 15-minute conference.)

 

I have to say that in some ways, I am glad this little dispute arose.  It was an opportunity for my daughter and me to have a new kind of discussion about reading.  Although teacher said she was in a "foul mood" on Thursday, she seems to have gotten over it and come back stronger than ever.  I can see her shaking off the discouragement and setting out to prove herself.  One thing about Miss A, when she is determined to pursue a certain goal, she can be incredibly focused and will generally be very successful.  Up until last week, she was being lackadaisical about reading goals, but no more.  :)  It will be interesting to see where this leads.

[AprilMayJune75]

When my daughter transitioned from homeschooling to public schooling halfway through first grade, I was pretty excited about the fact that her school had AR. She was reading at a third-grade level, and I was under the (mistaken) impression that participation in an individualized reading program would allow her to continue progressing at her own pace. I quickly learned that this would still take extra effort on the part of school faculty that they just weren't willing to invest (printing off a different test, allowing her to choose a book from a different section of the school library when her class was there each week, etc.) and after conversations with the teacher and the librarian, I finally just gave up. Like you, I didn't have time to do both on school nights, so her reading progress stagnated until summer break. At that point, she read everything she could get her hands on (for no incentive) and I watched both her ability and her interest level rise again.

 

In the fall, we moved to a new area and she started attending a private Christian school with a focus on Biblical, classical education. I was thrilled that there was no silly AR tests or reading "incentives". Then in October, DD's teacher sent home a letter telling parents that the children would be participating in Pizza Hut's Book It program. I inwardly groaned, until I read that the goal was either a) 1 book a day (for those still in the early reader phase) or b) 10-15 minutes of reading each day (for those who were more advanced readers, into chapter books, etc.), the choice to be at the parents' discretion. It has worked out beautifully! In late October, she finished her reading goal for the month by reading a chapter book to me that she had chosen. The other night, she read "The Emporer's New Clothes" aloud by Hans Christian Anderson; the next day, we chose a book of poetry and spent a half hour taking turns selecting one and reading it aloud. During parent-teacher conferences next week, I hope to be able to share with the teacher how delightful this reading experience is compared to AR/standard classroom readers that were sent home in the public schools!

[SKL]

AprilMayJune, I also have a younger daughter in the same grade (2nd) who is a reading fiend.  ;)  AR does not slow her down.  She just proudly told me that her AR reading range now goes up to 5th grade, but she has already been reading whatever she wants as far as I know.  She does not test on everything she reads; she doesn't need to do so in order to meet her AR goals.  For her, AR has been nice because it is the only thing in school that is customized to her individual situation.  Plus, it is easy for her to meet the stretch goals and still read to her heart's content.

 

As for those pizza hut book-it incentives, I threw ours in the garbage.  For my kids, it required 20 or 30 minutes of reading per day, which is a given in our family anyway.  I don't want a Pizza Hut coupon and I don't want my kids thinking that reading has anything to do with pizza.

 

In my childhood, most of the reading I really enjoyed was done purely for my own pleasure.  I suspect that is pretty typical.  I hope that reading for pure pleasure will be the experience of both of my daughters as well.

[Library Momma]

I just had to Google AR I have never seen or heard of it.  Schools in our town do not use it.  I have also never heard of teachers giving candy as incentives (I must live in the Twilight Zone).

[mytwomonkeys]

my daughter is in 6th grade. they have AR pizza parties for those kids that get all of their "points" by the end of the quarter. it's a nice incentive i think.  a lot of her teachers give cookies or candies to kids as reward for things. i'm fine with that though too. school can be super monotonous, so having treats, unrelated movies, assemblies, dress-up days, etc. makes it fun for my daughter.

 

i'm glad you figured out a happy middle ground for your little girl. i'm sure it does feel frustrating to be limited from books that you want to read.  if you find your daughter still does poorly on the tests for some reason, i would have her take practice tests at home before she does her AR test at school.  she could use bookadventure, or just google the title of the book & add in the words "reading test".  anyway, it may help her.

[mytwomonkeys]

I just had to Google AR I have never seen or heard of it.  Schools in our town do not use it.  I have also never heard of teachers giving candy as incentives (I must live in the Twilight Zone).

 

AR really isn't a big deal, at least not where I live. You just plug in your child's reading level (which usually has a low to high range based off a pretest they take) and it gives you a list of books your child can choose from. We go to our local library and find things, or my daughter can get things at school. We even own a ton of books already that meet her AR requirements. IMO, it gets kids reading, focuses on comprehension, and keeps them from picking things too easy or too hard.  I also love that they aren't assigned books, but can choose from a plethora of titles at their own discretion.  At least that's how it is here.

[OneStepAtATime]

AR really isn't a big deal, at least not where I live. You just plug in your child's reading level (which usually has a low to high range based off a pretest they take) and it gives you a list of books your child can choose from. We go to our local library and find things, or my daughter can get things at school. We even own a ton of books already that meet her AR requirements. IMO, it gets kids reading, focuses on comprehension, and keeps them from picking things too easy or too hard.  I also love that they aren't assigned books, but can choose from a plethora of titles at their own discretion.  At least that's how it is here.

That is actually how it is SUPPOSED to work, but not all schools follow the guidelines.  There are several school systems that are more concerned with children getting their AR points quickly (and thus they encourage reading at or below grade level even if the child is capable of more advanced and complex material) than with actually giving the child a positive, in depth experience with reading material.  They miss the point of the program completely and only focus on the AR points, not the reading experience and exposure to more complex vocabulary, concepts, grammar, etc.  Also, the system does heavily discourage re-reading material since you cannot retest on a book, which in the higher grades can be detrimental to a deeper understanding of very complex books.

[mytwomonkeys]

That is actually how it is SUPPOSED to work, but not all schools follow the guidelines.  There are several school systems that are more concerned with children getting their AR points quickly (and thus they encourage reading at or below grade level even if the child is capable of more advanced and complex material) than with actually giving the child a positive, in depth experience with reading material.  They miss the point of the program completely and only focus on the AR points, not the reading experience and exposure to more complex vocabulary, concepts, grammar, etc.  Also, the system does heavily discourage re-reading material since you cannot retest on a book, which in the higher grades can be detrimental to a deeper understanding of very complex books.

 

 

:( That's a real shame.  

 

Now, my daughter can't re-read books here either, but I think that's good. For her, the program stretches her, which I like. However, I would be really frustrated if the emphasis was more on accumulating points than actually growing my child as a reader. I didn't realize that was problematic in a lot of districts. I'd be upset too!

[SKL]

Speaking of re-reading books, Miss E just asked me if I would buy the entire Magic Treehouse series for her.  I asked her whether the school library has most of those books already, and she said yes, but she would like to re-read them and she can't borrow them twice from the school library.  I know how much I used to enjoy re-reading books that were really engaging.  So yes, that is a drawback.  And the point goals, at least in my kids' school, are really a stretch for readers who are average or below.  I'm not sure whether Miss A will make the "wall of fame" this year.  To do so she would need to successfully test on either 3 2nd-3rd grade chapter books or 5-6 shorter books each week.  It's not like she has nothing else to do besides read.  ;)

[mytwomonkeys]

Speaking of re-reading books, Miss E just asked me if I would buy the entire Magic Treehouse series for her.  I asked her whether the school library has most of those books already, and she said yes, but she would like to re-read them and she can't borrow them twice from the school library.  I know how much I used to enjoy re-reading books that were really engaging.  So yes, that is a drawback.  And the point goals, at least in my kids' school, are really a stretch for readers who are average or below.  I'm not sure whether Miss A will make the "wall of fame" this year.  To do so she would need to successfully test on either 3 2nd-3rd grade chapter books or 5-6 shorter books each week.  It's not like she has nothing else to do besides read.  ;)

 

Wow. Does your little girl have to take an AR test every week?  That's crazy! My daughter has to reach 20 AR points a quarter. 5 of those points are earned in class with an assigned reading they do at school.  The other 15 points come from books of her liking & she has to complete the goal by the end of the quarter (right before report cards).  Easier books are worth less points, more difficult books earn her more points. She isn't required to keep a reading log or anything.  It really works out nicely here. I am so sorry to read how problematic AR is in so many schools. It really is a shame :(

 

I'm sorry that this has been difficult for your daughter.  

[SKL]

Wow. Does your little girl have to take an AR test every week?  That's crazy! My daughter has to reach 20 AR points a quarter. 5 of those points are earned in class with an assigned reading they do at school.  The other 15 points come from books of her liking & she has to complete the goal at the end of the quarter (right before report cards).  Easier books are worth less points, more difficult books earn her more points. It really works out nicely here. I am so sorry to read how problematic AR is in so many schools. It really is a shame :(

 

I'm sorry that this has been difficult for your daughter.  

 

I can't remember how many points they "have" to have each quarter - I think 10 or 12 - but most of the kids try to reach the annual goal to be placed on the "Wall of Fame."  For 2nd grade, this is 100 points.  They also have a goal of 85% comprehension.  Most of the books at the 2nd-3rd grade level are either 0.5 or 1.0 points, if you get 100% on the comprehension test.  If you get 4 of the 5 questions right on a 0.5 point book, you get 0.4 points etc.  If you get less than 60% you get zero points and it still brings your comprehension average down.  So let's just say a kid averages 85% comprehension and half of the books are 1 point (chapter books over 100 pages) and the rest are 0.5 points.  They would have to take roughly 160 AR tests, nearly one per day, to meet the goal of 100 points.

 

They are encouraged to take an AR test daily or even multiple times per day if they can read that fast.  For Miss A we shoot for one 1-point book on Monday and Friday and some short ones on the in-between days.  We'll see how it comes out.  Last year she tested on about 200 books, but most were not chapter books.

[eleileen]

DS1 is at 1.5 - 2.5 level and we do 1 book a day, 2 over the weekends.

[mytwomonkeys]

Wow. That is a lot of reading!!!! Maybe it's just an age difference thing?? Perhaps it changes in middle school? Or maybe it's a district difference? My daughter reads a few books a quarter. She is reading "Little Town on the Prairie" right now and it's worth 9 points (although to earn the full points Is hinged on the AR test results too). She only needs 20 points total per quarter, and 5 of those are earned through assigned reading at school (They're reading Maniac Magee). Taking two tests a day seems ridiculous & the goal set before the kids definitely puts slower readers at a disadvantage. I'm not sure how that could possibly cultivate a love for reading when your flying through that many books and AR tests.

[ondreeuh]

I don't have experience with AR, but it does seem like it would take a young kid a lot more effort to reach 25 pts. per quarter than an older kid. It takes my son about 5 days to read a Magic Tree House book (a grade 2 book) but when he's actually in 2nd grade I expect he would breeze through it in an hour. Seems the points goals should be different depending on the age. SKL, is 100 points per year a 2nd grade goal, or a school-wide goal?

[SKL]

I don't have experience with AR, but it does seem like it would take a young kid a lot more effort to reach 25 pts. per quarter than an older kid. It takes my son about 5 days to read a Magic Tree House book (a grade 2 book) but when he's actually in 2nd grade I expect he would breeze through it in an hour. Seems the points goals should be different depending on the age. SKL, is 100 points per year a 2nd grade goal, or a school-wide goal?

 

The 1st grade goal was 75 points, 100 is for the 2nd grade.  I don't know how fast it goes up from there.  I did notice last year that at the rewards ceremony, the number of kids who made the "wall of fame" decreased as the kids got older.

 

Miss E reads Magic Treehouse and they are 1 or 2 points each, depending on the length and difficulty.  Miss A hasn't read any of the MT books yet, but she is looking forward to that after she exhausts Junie B. Jones.  ;)  As an average-ish reader, she would probably need more than an hour to get through even the easy MTH books, I would think.  Plus, the only time she has an hour for free reading is in aftercare.  If she's really into a book, I can see her choosing to read for an hour, but she's very social and physical and I don't think reading for an hour during that time is best for her right now.  I think that if I asked her to do so, she'd go through the motions but not get much out of it.  I ask her to read 2-4 chapters in aftercare depending on what day it is and whether she also has homework.

 

[LaughingCat]

This is another of my issues with AR at our school - the  point goals were set across the class, NOT customized for each reader.  The level was somewhat customized  (although not well because DD's were well above her actual sit down and read to self in a timely fashion level - equivalent to having an "average" reader reading Harry Potter in 2nd grade).   So the "good" readers breezed through and my poor struggling kid had basically no chance to meet the reward goal  - heck, the required goal itself took large amounts of extra reading time for her.  Not to mention that my child didn't have time to take enough AR tests during school (because she needed the full time to do her school work - AR tests were squeezed in "when you finished what you were doing") so I had to come in after school multiple times so she could take the AR tests she needed to pass the "required" level.  

 

When I started to answer SKL's question to me above for specifics, even just to say our situation was somewhat opposite so probably wouldn't help, I had to stop because I was getting steamed  :cursing:  - I like the concept of AR but the implementation - bah, humbug!

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

It would be nice if we could let the kids take AR tests at home.  But I suppose then they would think the parents were cheating or something . . . .

[SKL]

 Not to mention that my child didn't have time to take enough AR tests during school (because she needed the full time to do her school work - AR tests were squeezed in "when you finished what you were doing") so I had to come in after school multiple times so she could take the AR tests she needed to pass the "required" level.

 

Last year (1st grade) my kids were supposed to do AR and library time as part of the loosely organized "morning work" which included non-graded journal writing, review worksheets, etc.  "Morning work" time was from 8:15 to 8:50, though the official start of school was 8:30 (and yeah, I'm "that parent" whose kids generally arrived just as the bell rang - we had our reasons).  Miss A used to prioritize AR because of the points, but then she would have to miss recess because she didn't finish her other "morning work."

 

I wonder if any other schools customize AR points to the child?  That would be better.  It would be nice if Miss A could feel free to read and enjoy a book she likes instead of feeling rushed.  Miss E is in no way harmed by the goal; she has already racked up 39 points to Miss A's 23.

 

They just started being asked to take the vocabulary practice tests last week.  No idea what that's about - how much time it takes, whether there are incentives...  But presumably it makes the AR testing process take longer.

 

[Paige]

Miss A used to prioritize AR because of the points, but then she would have to miss recess because she didn't finish her other "morning work."

That's another thing I hate! School starts when it starts. I don't like it when kids are penalized for not completing morning work before school starts. Besides, whatever happened to just talking with your classmates before class- is that bad now?

[OneStepAtATime]

This is another of my issues with AR at our school - the  point goals were set across the class, NOT customized for each reader.  The level was somewhat customized  (although not well because DD's were well above her actual sit down and read to self in a timely fashion level - equivalent to having an "average" reader reading Harry Potter in 2nd grade).   So the "good" readers breezed through and my poor struggling kid had basically no chance to meet the reward goal  - heck, the required goal itself took large amounts of extra reading time for her.  Not to mention that my child didn't have time to take enough AR tests during school (because she needed the full time to do her school work - AR tests were squeezed in "when you finished what you were doing") so I had to come in after school multiple times so she could take the AR tests she needed to pass the "required" level.  

 

When I started to answer SKL's question to me above for specifics, even just to say our situation was somewhat opposite so probably wouldn't help, I had to stop because I was getting steamed  :cursing:  - I like the concept of AR but the implementation - bah, humbug!

I have two dyslexic kids, but they are very, very different.  In school they were both undiagnosed.  My son had no issues with making his points for AR (2e and his strengths kept him from having difficulties in this area until higher grades), but my poor daughter struggled every quarter to make the minimum AR points.  It took forever for her to read books, but once she read them she had a dismal time finding time to test because she was a slow reader so she couldn't get through her other work in time to test.  By the time she might have a moment to get on a computer, it could have been days or even a week or more since she read the book.  She had to move on and read other books because it took so long to get through them, but she might only have time to test on one book so by the time she tested on the next books she read it might be weeks since she had read them.  Her comprehension scores would drop since she hadn't read the book in quite a while, which meant that she didn't get as many points, which meant she had to read more books that took a long time to get through and then wait even longer to test, etc.  It was a never ending cycle that caused constant frustration, stress, insecurity and pushed her to hate reading.  You are right, the system is not set up to actually help the kids that need it the most.  Goals should be individually set up.  Kids that can read way above grade level should not be discouraged and forced to read below their reading ability just to earn points.  Kids that are struggling to read should be given scaffolding and personalized goals that will encourage reading, not make it another area of stress and potential failure.  I get steamed, too, still, even after being out of this now for a while (homeschooling for a year and a half).  This system COULD be great, but has been implemented poorly in many, many school districts.

[SKL]

So today I got a note that the teacher wrote on Monday.  It noted that Miss A had taken a test on a chapter book and got 80% on the comprehension, and also took the vocabulary test and got 5/8 of the words right.  I'm not sure why she wrote that.  I did tell her that I closely monitor what she's doing in AR (I can see the results online and I check daily). I don't see it as a problem if a kid decided to read a book that had a few challenging vocabulary words in it.  As for the 80%, she had read the book slowly over about a week and probably forgot a couple of things.  Big deal.  It was because they didn't have school half of last week and she started off upset at the teacher for the little AR tussle that I had mentioned in my OP.  The vocab test was a new thing and maybe she didn't know what to do with it.  One of the 3 words missed was "monster" and the book was called "JBJ has a monster under her bed," so give me a break.  The second word was "frown" which I've seen her read many times and she certainly knows what it means.

 

I don't understand.  Are they really trying to say that it's a problem if kids want to read something a little tiny bit challenging?  I always heard that if a young kid doesn't make any mistakes in reading, that means the material chosen is too easy and she needs a harder book.  In fact, I used to be a volunteer literacy tutor and went through training for this, and that's what they taught me.  How's a kid going to grow if she's never challenged?

 

I remember when I was in high school (college prep English) and the teacher would give quizzes on the books we were reading.  Sometimes I would get 0% on those quizzes because the stuff the teacher picked out wasn't the type of detail I noticed when I read.  Does that mean I had no business reading literature?  I think not.

 

Anyhoo, I've decided I need to spend more time reading daily with Miss A so she can get this lady off her back as far as reading goes.  Bah.

 

Another peeve today.  I got that test Miss A bombed with "word relationships."  Here are some of the things she got wrong:

 

summer:baseball - winter:____  Miss A chose "bowling" but the right answer apparently is "hockey."  Excuse us for not being ice hockey fans.

 

Another:  carrot:nose - sticks:  ___  Miss A chose "mouth" but it was supposed to be "arms."  Apparently if you don't make snowmen exactly the way the testers do, you are stupid.

 

Another:  head: hat - ears:  ___  The correct answer was "earmuffs" which Miss A has probably never heard of.

 

The whole list was a bunch of stuff that depends completely on your life experience. What do you drink in the winter, who is Frosty (the snowman), ...  This is supposed to be prep for the standardized tests.  Who decides what goes on these tests?

[ondreeuh]

SKL, sounds like that teacher is a little too hung up on testing being the ultimate indicator. Is this something the administration pushes, or just this teacher? I would be very frustrated with the situation you're in.

[OneStepAtATime]

The teachers are saying that they want comprehension. By the time the students get to the quiz, they have looked up the vocab they couldn't figure out from context and any paragraph they didn't understand should be resolved by either re-reading or discussing w/ a more knowledgeable reader.  The idea of staying just under the instructional level is that the student can comprehend the entire book all on his own, without an adult mentor.  Think of it as going from 95 to 100. As a K-2 parent volunteer and a past Literacy Tutor, I found this advice to be very helpful for fluency and training in the habit of picturing what they read in detail. I have a child taking AP English Lang & Comp this term...while he understands very well that there is more than plot to understood, he had to come to understand that everything the author chooses to put in is there for a reason, much like the set in a musical or an accent note in a jazz piece. If he can read carefully and build those scenes rather than skip & gloss over, he'll come out with a much deeper reading of the novel.  It all starts in elementary though...that habit of noticing and building the pic in the mind. On a kid level, I tell him "Hidden Mickey"...it's right out there in the open for those that take the time to see and understand...

 

One thing I didn't like about AR was that the quiz questions can be harder to read than the book.  It is so disappointing for a first grader to be able to independently read and understand his book, but then have to ask for help to understand what the quiz question says.

 

Be sure and put nonfiction AR in your dds' repetoire. Hard at first, because they have to remember details, but it pays off for later studies.  Usually people here start 0.5-1 grade level behind the fiction level.

Which sounds great, but at least in the lower grades at the schools in my area that is not what is happening.  The child is encouraged to rush through the book, take the test quickly, get the score, and move on.  Who cares what the score was except in the context of "Well, they didn't get as high a score as they should have, better move them back to a more basic book so they don't risk losing points.  Also, they still need to keep testing because they still don't have their "points". " And there is NO review of the book they tested on, NO training on how to be mindful of the details, word choice, etc.  Just read and test, read and test, gotta get those points because that is the purpose of the program, getting those points.   And yet it shouldn't be and doesn't have to be.  And I know from my own personal experience that reading basic readers in the lower elementary didn't challenge me or help me understand reading material.  It wasn't until I challenged myself by reading more advanced readers at home and realizing I needed to focus on the details to really understand what was happening that I finally started doing well on comprehension tests of books we were assigned in school.

[Paige]

I've always thought the material must be too easy for someone if he or she consistently gets 100% on everything. 80% is not a failing grade. Sure, it could be higher, but it is a solid middle grade that, IMO, indicates she's attempting to read books that stretch her a little. I thought AR was supposed to be "fun." It won't be fun if kids have to treat them all like work.

 

Those analogies seem random and the teacher should be flexible enough to see that other relationships work.

 

AR also penalizes poor testers. My DS was such a poor tester- I'd see him read the question, verbally give the correct answer, and then click the wrong ones by accident over and over. His standardized test scores are miserable but have little validity because they don't reflect what he actually knows. Perhaps Miss A is also a poor tester and you could work on test taking skills with her at home or observe a test to see where the problem is. It was very enlightening to me to see my DS take some tests because before then we could not figure out why his scores were always so much lower than would be expected by his other output.

[SKL]

The teachers are saying that they want comprehension. By the time the students get to the quiz, they have looked up the vocab they couldn't figure out from context and any paragraph they didn't understand should be resolved by either re-reading or discussing w/ a more knowledgeable reader.  The idea of staying just under the instructional level is that the student can comprehend the entire book all on his own, without an adult mentor.  Think of it as going from 95 to 100. As a K-2 parent volunteer and a past Literacy Tutor, I found this advice to be very helpful for fluency and training in the habit of picturing what they read in detail.

 

...

 

Be sure and put nonfiction AR in your dds' repetoire. Hard at first, because they have to remember details, but it pays off for later studies.  Usually people here start 0.5-1 grade level behind the fiction level.

 

No, the bold does not happen nor was this ever discussed.  I'm pretty sure at the beginning of 2nd grade they haven't even had their 1st lesson in using a dictionary, don't have ready access to an age-appropriate dictionary, and aren't that great at finding words in alphabetical order yet.  Furthermore, the reading is done during free times such as aftercare, in the car, on a visit to Granny, etc.  Nor is there any encouragement to discuss the books with a more knowledgeable reader, even assuming there was one around.

 

The suggestion that my kid does not know the word "monster" after reading a book called "JBJ has a monster under her bed" is just plain ridiculous.  The vocab test options must have been confusing to her.  That is not a reason to stop her from reading books with that level of word in it.  Miss A's strength is actually reading comprehension - she comprehends very well from context and predictions, and this may not be reflected in a bullet-point type of quiz.

 

I don't see how they can call the program "accelerated reader" if the point is to disallow reading above their 100% ease level.  And I'm still incredulous that there are professionals who think it is bad for kids to try reading something challenging on their own.  My life sure would have been different had I been discouraged from reading stuff that wasn't easy.

 

As for nonfiction, Miss A actually chooses a lot of nonfiction books.  She does fine on them generally.  The only time she really does sucky is when she is testing on books that are at such a low level there is nothing to actually comprehend.

[SKL]

Even if a kid isn't catching every nuance in the Junie B Jones books (great tragedy, I'm sure), that does not mean she is better off never reading such books.  I have done a lot of research in reading development, and one thing that most people agree on is that reading is almost always better than not reading.  Reading 100 words and getting 95 of them right is going to be better than reading 10 words and getting 10 of them right.  The way the AR program is set up, if the kids are not comprehending they cannot enjoy the books and they will choose something more appropriate on their own.  If Miss A was not "getting" JBJ she would not be taking them out of the library.

[LaughingCat]

You guys are discussing a 80% vs 100% as if the questions really tested comprehension, when probably the question she missed was something like "What color dress was Junie wearing when she went to school that day?"  or something else mentioned one time and completely irrelevant to the story  :glare:  

 

Remembering details is not the same as comprehension and every little detail is not always put in for a "reason".  Yes, maybe the author put the character in a certain dress for a specific reason that's important to the story, but maybe they just like to describe clothes or are trying to set a "mood".  For example,  I've read a number of books with detailed description of clothes- I can still "get" the picture the author is trying set up of the type of person that character is without remembering the picky little details of what they wore when.

 

Thankfully, hitting 100% was never an issue at our school - 80% or above was considered perfectly acceptable.

[SKL]

I wish they would let us see what the quiz questions were, so we could decide what kind of issue (if any) our kids were having.  Do the teachers even know what the missed questions were?

[SKL]

I personally think the book levels aren't determined accurately enough to make a child lower his level based on poor results on one test.  I had one son walk out one year with all his 5-11th grade books at the 100% level, but his grade level books, 4th, at the 85% level.  I attribute that to rushing plus the test asking for very trivial information or poorly worded questions.

Exactly.  My kid might get 60% on a Dr. Seuss book, so does that mean she needs to go back to See Dick Run?  Or is it more relevant to note that she got 100% in late 1st grade on some 2nd-grade level chapter books that she read?

 

The problem is that the way they are testing on the books doesn't provide an accurate reflection of how well the child read and understood the book.  If you ask my kid what the book was about, and she can tell you the story (and is eager to read the next one), who cares if she didn't pick up on the exact same details as the test writer?  Or do most people memorize every detail in the books they read?  That sure isn't how I read.

 

I should probably note that last year, Miss A and Miss E had roughly the same comprehension percentage and roughly the same average reading level per the AR results.  The big difference was that Miss E read about 50% more books.  Miss E's recommended reading level now goes up to the 5th grade, yet the last book she tested on was grade level 1.3 and she got 80% on it.  I don't think anyone would argue that Miss E isn't comprehending at the 1st grade level.  (Oh, and why am I not receiving a note from the teacher about Miss E's 80% score?)  I would also note that Miss E scored 70% on the last Junie B Jones book she read.  Hmm.  She also gets awful scores on the 2nd grade "leveled readers" put out by the curriculum publishers, which they periodically ask all the kids to read.  (Yet their approach to Miss A's results is to force her to read more of these poorly written, awful books.)