Mystery Girl Found in Greece

[Murphy101]

So, three more Greek Roma have been arrested for trying to register a 2-month-old boy as their own. They claimed that they happened to meet a random unknown woman in Athens who had five children and asked her if they could have one and she gave them one of her children and that no money was involved. Does this really happen? This is just so strange to me.

 

ETA link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-police-arrest-three-members-of-roma-settlement-on-suspicion-of-child-abduction-8900769.html

It is possible and it does really happen. You have to understand that the Roma are extremely mistreated. They literally do not have the same rights as other citizens. Many, possibly most in some areas, do not have "proper documentation" and no safe legal way to do things like transfer guardianship within their community. And you must understand they don't view the country at large as their community. Their community is restricted to other Romas.

 

Here, if I wanted to make sure my child went to live with someone within my community, (either the catholic community, the homeschool community or just an actual relative) I could safely and somewhat easily go through legal means of transfering guardianship. These options either are not available to the Roma in these countries or they are not honored and trusted to be honored by the Roma. (With good cause based on long time and current history.)

 

If I fall on hard times (which is often all many Roma ever have), I can file for foodstamps, WIC and so forth without fear of jail, losing my kids, or deportation. The Roma can't or are scared to do so.

[Murphy101]

I want to be clear..

 

I do not think these Roma are necessarily innocent. They might very well be evil awful people.

 

The problem the Rima community is having is that when racism dictates that all Roma are awful suspicious people while completely ignoring that the system makes living a suspicious life a requirement of survival, it's really hard to sift past that to judge the situation.

[Orthodox6]

No Greek in my extended family EVER would hand over a child in such manner.

[Kathryn]

I could perhaps understand giving a child you were unable to care for to a relative or friend or someone else in your community. But, in this case, they say that a complete stranger that they just happened to meet gave them her two-month-old son when they asked for one of her children because they (aged 19 and 21) couldn't have children of their own. And they have no idea who she was or how to get in touch with her. That's what I'm having a hard time with.

 

ETA: and upon further thought, how do they know enough to file all these false registration papers to get benefits but not how to file actual legal transfer papers?

 

ETA again: genuine questions, not trying to be confrontational or snarky.

[unsinkable]

 

 

If I fall on hard times (which is often all many Roma ever have), I can file for foodstamps, WIC and so forth without fear of jail, losing my kids, or deportation. The Roma can't or are scared to do so.

Most of the articles I've read about the Greek Roma family with the blond girl talk about the money they are getting from the government. It seemed like it was based on the number of kids. I think there is aid available they were receiving.

[MBM]

Can these people not go through legal avenues to adopt these unwanted children who are supposedly being given to them? Do they not realize that by not doing so, they are creating some serious potential problems for themselves? I think adoption rules and checks are there for a reason.

 

If no other parent is found for Maria, I wonder if her Roma parents will get her back given that they were in possession of illegal drugs and guns (not sure if the guns were legal).

 

[Murphy101]

I agree all of that is valid to question. I'm not at all saying otherwise. I completely agree this all sounds bonkers messed up.

 

The only things I'm saying are:

 

The prejudice is so prevalent there that I wouldn't presume the media/police are telling all or any of the actual facts. They very well might be. But I would be highly skeptical of it.

 

And

 

That when a people do not feel they have a voice in the government and they know they are targets of extinction plans kind of prejudice, yes, they do things that the rest of us would think highly suspect and unreasonable.

 

I don't think any Greek person would just hand over their child. But again, they aren't just Greek. They are Roma. They are actively persecuted in those countries. People who are actively persecuted tend to not act in completely law abiding ways because the laws are literally set up against them.

[Murphy101]

I know there has been a long history of people taking Roma children to raise them "properly" being called adoption.

 

However, I'd bet it's really hard for a poor Roma family to adopt anyone. By the nature of being Roma, they are likely to be deemed unfit.

 

ETA: I'm thinking of it like this:

 

The likeliness of a poor Roma couple being granted adoption of a blue eyed, blond child are about as likely as a poor black couple in the 1950s south being granted adoption of a white baby. Would it have been legally possible? Probably. Much chance of it actually happening? No. Does that mean no poor black folks ever took a poor white kid under their wing for a time? No.

 

And no, again, I am not at all saying these Roma are innocent. I don't know.

 

As for drugs and guns...

 

Idk about that either. That's often not enough to cost people their kids in the USA unless there is proof they were actually abusive to the children.

[lea_lpz]

I've been following this story...my grandmother was Roma/Czech and very stereotypical in looks and features.

She gave birth to a blond haired, blue eyed son, my dad.

Her other biological child was dark, and they both had a whole bunch of dark eyed, dark haired children. I married a brown eyed, brown haired man, and together we somehow produced a very blond little boy with big blue eyes with light skin.

 

Suffice to say I am glad I am not in a Roma village or camp right now.

My dh and I had the same thought. We are not Roma but Latino and both have medium olive skin and dark hair. My dh has brown eyes and I have hazel. We both have a parent born and raised in Mexico with colored eyes and blond hair and fair skin and one with more classic Latino features. They are Mexican nationals who are basically White. Our dd looks like is in coloring. Our son is blond with green eyes and fair skin with a pinkish hue. He was born bald with big blue eyes and stayed that way the first year. We got a lot of looks when we'd be out as a family.

 

I understand they are not her biological parents and there was a drug raid involved so protective services should be involved. However I can't imagine being able to take a child and do a DNA test because they child looks different than the parents. It's really not uncommon for recessive genes to pop up, especially multiracial couples.

[swellmomma]

I'm a bit embarrassed to say that sometimes Dh and I joke about selling our kids to gypsies when they're being rowdy.  It had always been a joke before, but the reality of people actually selling babies has been horrifically sobering.  I don't think there will be anymore "selling the kids" jokes around here.  This story is just too sad.

 

I make the same joke all the time and my parents did the same.  It's one of those things you say without really thinking of the reality of people really selling their kids, or of prejudices towards another culture.  Actually before this thread I have to admit I was ignorant to the fact that gypsys still existed and that there was Roma.  It just never occured to me.  How stupid is that?    

[MBM]

I know there has been a long history of people taking Roma children to raise them "properly" being called adoption.

 

However, I'd bet it's really hard for a poor Roma family to adopt anyone. By the nature of being Roma, they are likely to be deemed unfit.

 

ETA: I'm thinking of it like this:

 

The likeliness of a poor Roma couple being granted adoption of a blue eyed, blond child are about as likely as a poor black couple in the 1950s south being granted adoption of a white baby. Would it have been legally possible? Probably. Much chance of it actually happening? No. Does that mean no poor black folks ever took a poor white kid under their wing for a time? No.

 

And no, again, I am not at all saying these Roma are innocent. I don't know.

 

As for drugs and guns...

 

Idk about that either. That's often not enough to cost people their kids in the USA unless there is proof they were actually abusive to the children.

 

Certain standards should be met before children can be adopted, otherwise, children could be placed in unsafe homes or trafficked. Look how difficult it is for so many families here in the US to adopt. It can take years before it happens, but most families go through the proper legal channels.

 

I would agree that the Roma have been persecuted, but I do not agree that they or anyone else should not be scrutinized before adopting a child or should not have to follow the law. Laws are in place to protect the most vulnerable -- the children.

 

The vulnerable child's well-being must come first, at least in my book it must.

 

Illegal possession of drugs most definitely can cause people to lose custody of their children in the US. Parental drug use can be considered child abuse. Just do a Google search. Here is just one article about a father who lost custody of his two kids due to his possession of marijuana:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/gulf-war-veteran-sues-san-diego-medical-marijuana-bust-leads-loss-kids-article-1.1424919

[SKL]

What a mess.  It sounds like there probably are many kids living in temporary, illegal conditions and perhaps shuttled from home to home as it pleases the "parents."  I can't imagine what this does to the kids themselves.

[Murphy101]

Certain standards should be met before children can be adopted,

 

Illegal possession of drugs most definitely can cause people to lose custody of their children

AGAIN, I did not say otherwise.

[MBM]

As for drugs and guns...

 

Idk about that either. That's often not enough to cost people their kids in the USA unless there is proof they were actually abusive to the children.

 

Well, what do you mean by the above then?

 

What I am saying is that the mere presence of certain drugs in a home could cause a parent to lose custody. Maybe I am reading your post incorrectly but you seem to be suggesting that the parent needs to be abusive, too.

[Murphy101]

I said "idk" and "often not enough".

 

I don't know that I would presume all crimes usually equal custody removal. I don't know it in the USA and I sure don't know about it in Greece.

 

Which is completely true. Millions of addicts or dealers are not abusive parents. They hold down jobs. They are on the PTA. They cheer their kid at soccer games. When they get busted, the main reason their kids end up in the foster system is bc they are in jail and this unable to provide a home. But many don't do time in jail and don't lose their kids.

 

We could argue they should, but fact is that's not always the case. We don't have enough prison and foster beds for the cases that do end up that way, much less all of them.

[MBM]

I said "idk" and "often not enough".

 

I don't know that I would presume all crimes usually equal custody removal. I don't know it in the USA and I sure don't know about it in Greece.

 

Which is completely true. Millions of addicts or dealers are not abusive parents. They hold down jobs. They are on the PTA. They cheer their kid at soccer games. When they get busted, the main reason their kids end up in the foster system is bc they are in jail and this unable to provide a home. But many don't do time in jail and don't lose their kids.

 

We could argue they should, but fact is that's not always the case. We don't have enough prison and foster beds for the cases that do end up that way, much less all of them.

 

 

What? I did not say or suggest that *all* crimes usually equal custody removal; I said the mere possession of drugs *can* result in loss of custody.

 

I am also not suggesting people *should* do time. I'm merely stating that abuse does not have to present in addition to the presence of drugs for parents to lose custody.

[BigMamaBird]

I'm trying to follow this and get my head around it.  To be clear, is "Roma" a separate racial thing like being black or is it a culture thing like say, the Amish?  

[MistyMountain]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474887/Is-Marias-REAL-family-Bulgarian-mother-quizzed-police-birth-records-suggest-gave-away-baby-Greece.html

 

Looks like they found the mother. The results are not in yet but she has so many of the features of the siblings like the forehead that I think she is. So she was born to a poor Bulgarian mom and was sold cheaply. She has albinism. I always thought that people with albinism had no color and white white hair and pink eyes but I guess maybe you can have a milder form?

[Orthodox6]

I'm trying to follow this and get my head around it.  To be clear, is "Roma" a separate racial thing like being black or is it a culture thing like say, the Amish?  

 

The Roma are one of the two major groups of what incorrectly are called "gypsies."  (I forget the name of the other group.)  Their historical origins are difficult to trace; however, generally it is held that as a group of people (ethnicity), they came from India. 

 

[Amira]

Yes, there are several different groups of people that might grouped under the term "gypsy." Rom are most familiar to Westerners, but Dom and other groups also exist, and there are smaller groups within both Rom and Dom. In Central Asia, for example, there is a subdivision of Dom called Luli. Being Romani, Domani, etc. is more an ethnicity rather than a race or culture. There can be major cultural differences between different groups and there are certainly no racially unifying characteristics, if that's even a meaningful term anymore.

[Murphy101]

I'm trying to follow this and get my head around it. To be clear, is "Roma" a separate racial thing like being black or is it a culture thing like say, the Amish?

 

The Roma are one of the two major groups of what incorrectly are called "gypsies." (I forget the name of the other group.) Their historical origins are difficult to trace; however, generally it is held that as a group of people (ethnicity), they came from India.

 

 

Yes. I'd say Roma is both a racial AND a culture. (Eta or more accurately, several of them? Sorta.)

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474887/Is-Marias-REAL-family-Bulgarian-mother-quizzed-police-birth-records-suggest-gave-away-baby-Greece.htmlLooks like they found the mother. The results are not in yet but she has so many of the features of the siblings like the forehead that I think she is. So she was born to a poor Bulgarian mom and was sold cheaply. She has albinism. I always thought that people with albinism had no color and white white hair and pink eyes but I guess maybe you can have a milder form?

Some fascinating things about the article...

 

The Bulgarian woman insists she didn't sell the baby.

There is some claims that she lied on the birth/hospital documents. Used her maiden name instead of married, and claimed she didn't know who the father was. Interesting I suppose. But then again, some married women might not know who the bio father is and wouldn't want to share the sordid reasons as to why that might be. I'm not sure why it matters if she was married or not. She didn't lie about who she is and she came up on the ID check. Anyways... Interesting... That brings up so many cans of worms, yk? Women lie every single day about the fathers or lack of ford their babies. And in many places, there's no requirement to use a certain last name.

 

Also, they are presuming the Greek family took this girl in only as an investment. Based on what? That they are Roma? They do not state why they think that. And it does *look* as though Maria is much better off health wise than her bio siblings.

 

I don't see how they can charge anyone with kidnapping or trafficking from what little is being told. Tho I'm willing to believe that was actually the plan of the Greek couple.

 

A very poor woman gave her baby to someone else to care for. If she is sincere, she even hoped at some point to return for that baby. The Greek couple didn't make any effort to leave or run off with the baby to prevent that and gave enough information to the police that the girl's bio mother was able to be tracked down.

 

Even in the USA, I could do this. There is no law saying I have to have my children live with me. None. I could send them to live with a person I've never met in another state. Ideally I'd at least transfer guardianship, because it would just make life much easier on them there, but I'm not required to do it.

 

This brings up so many issues to consider.... Just thinking out loud...

[NicAnn]

The article I read said they suspect he was being raised as a bride because she had her own room, a luxury I guess, and that there were other cases of such.

[SKL]

Well, that was interesting to read - at least it seems the child was not abducted.

[Murphy101]

The article I read said they suspect he was being raised as a bride because she had her own room, a luxury I guess, and that there were other cases of such.

But um... Well there's nothing illegal about raising a girl to be a wife is there? Many cultures still have dowries. Heck, some women are only sent to college to marry a man well off.

 

As long as she isn't a minor at the time of the wedding, what's illegal about hoping your daughter marries well off and your family benefits from that higher status? I know the morale qualms of it, but I trying to see what illegal about it.

 

Like I said, this certainly opens a huge can or worms for discussion, yes?

[SKL]

They are already using her to make money.  If you noticed, the video of her dancing had people throwing fistfulls of coins onto the stage.  I assume the intention is to train her in showmanship and exploit her fair looks and whatever talents she has until she is old enough to strike out on her own.

 

Am I the only person who keeps thinking "Hunchback of Notre Dame"?

[NicAnn]

But um... Well there's nothing illegal about raising a girl to be a wife is there? Many cultures still have dowries. Heck, some women are only sent to college to marry a man well off.

 

As long as she isn't a minor at the time of the wedding, what's illegal about hoping your daughter marries well off and your family benefits from that higher status? I know the morale qualms of it, but I trying to see what illegal about it.

 

Like I said, this certainly opens a huge can or worms for discussion, yes?

I don't know, but imagine there is some legal implications to obtaining a child to make money of the dowry. The article also said she would be married at 12. It seems they would essentially be selling her to someone. I know next to nothing, except what I've read, btw.

[Caroline]

I don't know, but imagine there is some legal implications to obtaining a child to make money of the dowry. The article also said she would be married at 12. It seems they would essentially be selling her to someone. I know next to nothing, except what I've read, btw.

Or maybe she will be a bride for one of their own boys? That seems kind of icky.

[Orthodox6]

In Greece, the legal age for marriage is eighteen.  (just looked this up on multiple websites).  Did find mention that, especially in remote areas, child brides can be found because the local Islamic authorities are granted permission to handle marriages, and the national laws are not always enforced.  This sounds plausible, given the recently-published articles discussing how messed up the registry birth records are.  There has been no mention in anything that I have read, though, of what religion, if any, is espoused by the Roma family that was caring for "Maria".  When I lived in Austin, a number of the local Roma families were nominally (stress on nominally) Orthodox Christian.  Sometimes families would show up at our parish seeking baptism for a baby.    

[Murphy101]

Well I've read about the same on this case and that's why I have questions. Because in the USA it should be really difficult to prosecute someone for what they *might* do.

 

So what if she was doing a street performance and people tossed money in the hat or whatever for her? That's not illegal. Whatshername did it when she was homeless with her mom...ugh whatshername?!

 

Jewel! The singer. Remember her? I wonder if her mom would have been arrested if her mom was dark skinned...

 

Just saying we can speculate til the cows come home, but what have they actually done that's illegal? They gave her a much BETTER living accommodation than their bio kids, they let people toss pocket change at her street dancing (btw, some are claiming it was a Roma festival she was dancing at and many girls were/do). A woman willing gave her baby to someone else in theory without any compensation. A couple took in a child that was given to them, made no effort to sell her, abuse her (that we know of) or pay for her. What of that is illegal?

 

I'm not condoning any of it. I'm not presuming innocence or wrong doing of anyone. I'm reading the same things most of you are and asking questions I don't see being asked. I think they are valid questions. I also think more info could come to light to change much of them or answer those questions.

[LibraryLover]

This story is disturbing on so many levels.

[SKL]

I thought they admitted that they gave the mom some money in exchange for the child.  I would venture a guess that that's illegal.

 

I don't know if there's anything illegal about how they are caring for the child (or plan to in the future).  However, child exploitation is a very real thing and I sense that it's happening here.  The potential problems with this are many.  That's why most countries do forbid most child labor and require that kids get an education.  Since this community seems content to live outside the law, are their kids growing up literate?  Is she going to make it to a reasonable age before she is introduced to sexual activity, and will she be free to refuse it?

 

Granted, it doesn't look like her life would have been any better with her biological mom - as much as I hate to say that.

 

It's depressing to see all the poverty involved in this situation.

[Murphy101]

I thought they admitted that they gave the mom some money in exchange for the child. I would venture a guess that that's illegal.

I can't find that. Everything I find says they are both claiming no money was exchanged for the girl.

 

I don't know if there's anything illegal about how they are caring for the child (or plan to in the future). However, child exploitation is a very real thing and I sense that it's happening here.

But do you sense it because it is or do you sense it because of the crazy amount of bias against Roma in the media and public there? Because if you read the facts and not the tone of the reports, there's nothing that screams exploitation. It really really bothers me that people aren't asking these questions based in that and are instead presuming guilt. So much for innocent until proven guilty, ywkim?

 

The potential problems with this are many. That's why most countries do forbid most child labor and require that kids get an education. Since this community seems content to live outside the law, are their kids growing up literate? Is she going to make it to a reasonable age before she is introduced to sexual activity, and will she be free to refuse it?

I have no idea and so far none of the reports have given any reason to suspect that other than the family is Roma and therefore they are a concern.

 

Granted, it doesn't look like her life would have been any better with her biological mom - as much as I hate to say that.

 

It's depressing to see all the poverty involved in this situation.

Actually, I couldn't find much, but this has a bit about the community she was taken from in Greece and it looks tremendously improved from the squalor her bio siblings are living in in Bulgaria. Still not luxurious by any stretch, but not obviously awful either.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/old-attitudes-resurface-in-greece-inside-the-roma-camp-where-maria-the-blonde-angel-lived-8897530.html

[Sisyphus]

Martha, I "liked" your posts but I just want to say you have articulated very well the things I find disturbing about this case. Because they are Roma, is it automatically presumed she will be an illiterate child bride fetching a big dowry for her hair color, bought by these people for this purpose? It very well may be, but the automatic assumption, because they are Roma with a blonde headed girl, just doesn't seem right. raising girls for the express purpose of marriage is hardly unique to the Roma, anyway. But add in a blonde child, and baby stealing, and you have a firestorm of old stories come to pass in real life- everyones prejudices are confirmed...or are they?

 

This case, and this thread, and the presence of "gypped" in a textbook, really make me think. Thanks Martha and WTM!

[SKL]

I can't find that. Everything I find says they are both claiming no money was exchanged for the girl.

 

But do you sense it because it is or do you sense it because of the crazy amount of bias against Roma in the media and public there? Because if you read the facts and not the tone of the reports, there's nothing that screams exploitation. It really really bothers me that people aren't asking these questions based in that and are instead presuming guilt. So much for innocent until proven guilty, ywkim?

 

I have no idea and so far none of the reports have given any reason to suspect that other than the family is Roma and therefore they are a concern.

 

I do not base my comments on racism.  Those folks appear biologically Indian, and I have many good friends who are Indian.  I live with one and I seriously considered marriage to one.  My kids are from an indigenous community south of here, and white skin is the minority in my house.

 

I happen to have a lot of knowledge about child trafficking and slavery.  It isn't a false rumor.  (In fact, when my kids and I were getting ready to fly out of India, the girls were questioned to make sure they weren't being exported as slaves.)  Someone's out there doing these evil things, and they come in all colors.  That said, there's a reason people think that about gypsies, like it or not.

 

OK, then you have the physical evidence - the many birth certificates connected with this custodial "mom," the rare blond-haired child (whose hair had been colored dark in the past) trying to hide herself from the investigators, the fact that he parents paid for the child (I'm sure it said that in one of the articles; it even gave an amount).  The fact that she's on the stage performing with adults for money.  (Oh, and the woman performing with her is also blonde.)

 

Let's not turn a blind eye to what is apparent out of fear that we'll be accused of racism.

[SKL]

Honestly, I was withholding judgment about this business until I heard about the many obviously falsified birth certificates that this couple has been connected with in a short period of time.  I don't care what color their skin is, that screams foul play to me.

[Sisyphus]

Oh it is foul play, but welfare fraud type of foul play, not child trafficking kind. Not that it's okay. But now you have to add in the historic marginalization of the Roma, and poverty, and wonder- is it surprising? Not is it ok, it isnt, but is it surprising?

 

Is it enough to have your child taken? What if it isn't your child, but her (reportedly) Bulgarian mother didn't want her, is that ok? What in the marginalization and persecution of the Roma makes some of this understandable, and some of it not? what about the very real problem of child trafficking and forced prostitution? And the burning of Roma encampments and their forced expulsion from places, that in some cases, they have lived for many years? Where do these things intersect and how are they related? It's just not a black or white issue.

[SKL]

Oh it is foul play, but welfare fraud type of foul play, not child trafficking kind. Not that it's okay. But now you have to add in the historic marginalization of the Roma, and poverty, and wonder- is it surprising? Not is it ok, it isnt, but is it surprising?

 

Is it enough to have your child taken? What if it isn't your child, but her (reportedly) Bulgarian mother didn't want her, is that ok? What in the marginalization and persecution of the Roma makes some of this understandable, and some of it not? what about the very real problem of child trafficking and forced prostitution? And the burning of Roma encampments and their forced expulsion from places, that in some cases, they have lived for many years? Where do these things intersect and how are they related? It's just not a black or white issue.

 

Historical inequality does not make it OK to purchase and exploit children.  It does not "intersect."

 

Drug traffic, stealing, corruption, yeah, I could see some gray.

 

You know, I could understand taking the baby off the bio mother's hands at the bio mother's request if my goal was just to give the child a decent life.  I could see doing that with kids of all colors, in a situation like this, where there are no better legal ways to provide for the child.  (Bulgarian orphanages, from what I've seen, are not a viable option.)  But I do believe this transaction occurred because there is a higher price on blonde-haired girls in that community, and these folks were thinking ahead.  Unless I find that they also have a houseful of purchased/casually "adopted" brown-skinned kids, it's going to be hard to convince me they didn't have exploitation in mind when they purchased this girl.

[momma2three]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474887/Is-Marias-REAL-family-Bulgarian-mother-quizzed-police-birth-records-suggest-gave-away-baby-Greece.html

 

Looks like they found the mother. The results are not in yet but she has so many of the features of the siblings like the forehead that I think she is. So she was born to a poor Bulgarian mom and was sold cheaply. She has albinism. I always thought that people with albinism had no color and white white hair and pink eyes but I guess maybe you can have a milder form?

 

Albinism is a lack of pigment.  People with Albinism have pale skin and hair, and light blue eyes.  The idea that they have red eyes is a literary invention to make them seem scary.

[Anne in CA]

People exploit children all over the world, completely independent of their color. I believe that the darker your skin the cheaper you are exploited for, but that aside, any young woman who is unprotected by parents who would do anything for her is at real risk, and even young women with protective parents could be exploited. Two years ago my NaNoWriMo novel was about this very subject because of my work with Asian orphanages I had done a lot of research on this subject. I am in the process of rewriting this novel because I believe that child trafficking has many levels and the average American should be more aware of it as our culture changes. 

 

I do think the media is more interested in this case because the child was blonde and the traffickers were of Roma ancestry. It makes a better story than the normal exploitation that happens every day. 

[Murphy101]

Honestly, I was withholding judgment about this business until I heard about the many obviously falsified birth certificates that this couple has been connected with in a short period of time. I don't care what color their skin is, that screams foul play to me.

Of course it does.

 

However, as has already been noted, they didn't know any of that when they took the girl. They only took her bc she was blonde and looked too good to be Roma. That's it. And I'm curious to know if they bio tested the other children or not. Or is it only white babies they are worried about trafficking? Somehow I suspect they aren't going through Roma camps looking for trafficked children. They are going through camps looking for blonde/whiter skinned children. I have a problem with that. Not because I think it okay to traffic children, but because I don't think it's okay to presume people are trafficking children. And if one is going to do that under the claim it's just about the trafficking and not about race, then by golly, they better be looking into all the brown skinned children too. Maybe they should require all Roma bring their children in for DNA proof and paperwork. (Gosh I hope that isn't a serious consideration, but it would not surprise me if it were.)

 

Also, SKL, I am not at all accusing anyone of racism here. I'm pointing out that the tone of these reports are blatantly biased yet hold very few actual damning facts that are clearly illegal. (Aside from possible welfare fraud and forged documents. Hmm. I wonder what illegals in the USA do for their children who weren't born here? Hmmm. It's not like we don't have a trafficking problem along our borders too... Hmmm. A bit OT, but my mind meanders like that...)

 

I'm not at all suggesting we refuse to persecute them for crimes they have committed just because they are Roma. Not at all.

 

I'm trying to get to what their actual crimes were.

 

It apparently wasn't child trafficking per se as they don't seem to have tried to sell her at any point. I don't consider a dowry for a marriageable woman (not some 12 year old) to be the same as trafficking. I find it hard to believe she would bring in enough to recover 16+ years of better care than their own bio children were getting.

 

Street performing for pennies is hardly a crime just bc blondes make more money. I have no idea why that's even an issue. Unless she was doing something sexual, I think it's not relevant.

[SKL]

Of course it does.

 

However, as has already been noted, they didn't know any of that when they took the girl. They only took her bc she was blonde and looked too good to be Roma. That's it. And I'm curious to know if they bio tested the other children or not. Or is it only white babies they are worried about trafficking? Somehow I suspect they aren't going through Roma camps looking for trafficked children. They are going through camps looking for blonde/whiter skinned children. I have a problem with that. Not because I think it okay to traffic children, but because I don't think it's okay to presume people are trafficking children. And if one is going to do that under the claim it's just about the trafficking and not about race, then by golly, they better be looking into all the brown skinned children too. Maybe they should require all Roma bring their children in for DNA proof and paperwork. (Gosh I hope that isn't a serious consideration, but it would not surprise me if it were.)

 

Also, SKL, I am not at all accusing anyone of racism here. I'm pointing out that the tone of these reports are blatantly biased yet hold very few actual damning facts that are clearly illegal. (Aside from possible welfare fraud and forged documents. Hmm. I wonder what illegals in the USA do for their children who weren't born here? Hmmm. It's not like we don't have a trafficking problem along our borders too... Hmmm. A bit OT, but my mind meanders like that...)

 

I'm not at all suggesting we refuse to persecute them for crimes they have committed just because they are Roma. Not at all.

 

I'm trying to get to what their actual crimes were.

 

It apparently wasn't child trafficking per se as they don't seem to have tried to sell her at any point. I don't consider a dowry for a marriageable woman (not some 12 year old) to be the same as trafficking. I find it hard to believe she would bring in enough to recover 16+ years of better care than their own bio children were getting.

 

Street performing for pennies is hardly a crime just bc blondes make more money. I have no idea why that's even an issue. Unless she was doing something sexual, I think it's not relevant.

 

They didn't know that girl was there before the raid, yet there was an official on the raid who was a child welfare worker.  So maybe in fact the raid did have something to do with child welfare.

 

No, dancing is not illegal, but if you really think that's the extent of what happens to purchased children, I am sorry, but that is naive.  She is still little, at least they have the decency (as far as we know) to allow her her innocence for now, but there is an economic reason they bought that little girl.

 

Yes, they took the girl away, because the parents didn't have matching DNA nor genuine documents for her.  The parents admitted they were not her legal parents.  Do you really think it was wrong for the authorities to investigate who the legal parents were and whether they voluntarily gave up the child?

 

I know someone white who adopted a child from a Latin American country.  They were touring in Mexico, and the border authorities detained them because the child was obviously not biologically related, and they didn't have documents.  So while these Greek authorities might have been racist, it is not necessarily true.  (For all I know, the cops might have been Roma themselves.)  That's why I always carry my kids' ID cards in my pocket and when we travel, I carry their passports, whether I need them or not.  And I was glad when they questioned my girls in the Delhi airport, because while it's a little inconvenient for families to be questioned, it's a lot better than letting children be sold into exploitation.

 

[Murphy101]

I have not read that a it was a child welfare official. It just says "police" on all the stuff I'm reading. Though that doesn't mean much even if it was. In my city, the police have a social worker go with them if they know there are children in the home, even if it has nothing to do with the kids. It's not rocket science to know that if a family is living there and you are hauling the adults to jail, someone needs to make sure the kids are cared for.

 

And please do not read more into what I wrote than what I wrote. I'm not naive.

 

Fact is dancing in the street isn't illegal or abusive or anything. It's dancing the street for pennies. I think it completely not relevant to whether these people were going to abuse her or otherwise exploit her. That does not at all mean I am naive about what exploitation can and does mean or entail.

 

How do you prove she was going to be exploited? Is just being Roma with a blonde kid enough proof. Is being Roma with a blonde girl enough. Is being Roma with a blonde girl who isn't theirs enough? (The fraudulent paperwork is a problem, but they ALL had fraudulent paperwork. The parents, their other kids. It's extremely difficult for the Roma to survive in a very prejudiced system legally. I am NOT condoning any of this. I am saying if we start saying everyone with fraudulent paperwork on their kids is a trafficker, then that's really not logically or reality either.)

 

I think chances are good they were not just kid loving generous druggies who didn't want to live on the grid. I agree. I'm not naive.

 

But proof is what I want and none of the articles I've read have any factual proof to that regard, but they absolutely have a tone of Roma = suspicious. At least they do to me. Proof is what should convict someone. Not public sentiment.

[maize]

Albinism is a lack of pigment. People with Albinism have pale skin and hair, and light blue eyes. The idea that they have red eyes is a literary invention to make them seem scary.

my friend's albino daughter has a definite pinkish tint to her eyes, and her hair is pure white. There are probably varying levels/types of albinism, but pink eyes are not a myth. If you can imagine bluish pink, that is what hers are.

[Jean in Newcastle]

my friend's albino daughter has a definite pinkish tint to her eyes, and her hair is pure white. There are probably varying levels/types of albinism, but pink eyes are not a myth. If you can imagine bluish pink, that is what hers are.

Yes, a college friend with albinism also had pink tinged eyes.  Her hair is pure white as well.  

[Reflections]

I've known two people in my life who have had albinism (not the largest sample, I know).  One was caucasian, the other was african american. Both had significant trouble seeing and were given accommodations for that at our university.  The caucasian's eyes were near pink and the african american had super light blue eyes with a hint of something like pink.  The pink is because the eye is reflecting what is behind the eye.

 

http://www.visionfortomorrow.org/albinism-faqs/

[MistyMountain]

Albinism is a lack of pigment. People with Albinism have pale skin and hair, and light blue eyes. The idea that they have red eyes is a literary invention to make them seem scary.

There were two siblings who had albinism that went to the school I went to growing up and they had pinkish eyes and white white hair and their skin tone was even whiter then M and siblings. It isn't just a literary invention. I have looked it up and now know there is a wider variety of how it can affect any individual and there are a few gene mutations that cause it. I am more informed now that I looked it up. I only knew those two people with albinism and I mistakenly thought that the eyes were characteristic of it.

[SKL]

I have not read that a it was a child welfare official. It just says "police" on all the stuff I'm reading. Though that doesn't mean much even if it was. In my city, the police have a social worker go with them if they know there are children in the home, even if it has nothing to do with the kids. It's not rocket science to know that if a family is living there and you are hauling the adults to jail, someone needs to make sure the kids are cared for.

 

And please do not read more into what I wrote than what I wrote. I'm not naive.

 

Fact is dancing in the street isn't illegal or abusive or anything. It's dancing the street for pennies. I think it completely not relevant to whether these people were going to abuse her or otherwise exploit her. That does not at all mean I am naive about what exploitation can and does mean or entail.

 

How do you prove she was going to be exploited? Is just being Roma with a blonde kid enough proof. Is being Roma with a blonde girl enough. Is being Roma with a blonde girl who isn't theirs enough? (The fraudulent paperwork is a problem, but they ALL had fraudulent paperwork. The parents, their other kids. It's extremely difficult for the Roma to survive in a very prejudiced system legally. I am NOT condoning any of this. I am saying if we start saying everyone with fraudulent paperwork on their kids is a trafficker, then that's really not logically or reality either.)

 

I think chances are good they were not just kid loving generous druggies who didn't want to live on the grid. I agree. I'm not naive.

 

But proof is what I want and none of the articles I've read have any factual proof to that regard, but they absolutely have a tone of Roma = suspicious. At least they do to me. Proof is what should convict someone. Not public sentiment.

 

Well you obviously aren't going to ever get proof of what someone might do to a kid in the future.

 

They are not being charged with those things, either.  They are being charged with what they admitted to.  While I am fully aware that racism has impacted their lives, that should not prevent them from being prosecuted for crimes they actually committed.  If they have not mistreated this girl and since they did not in fact "steal" her from her mother, and if this isn't part of a bigger pattern, hopefully the authorities will be lenient with them in connection with this particular crime.

 

Just keep in mind that there are good reasons why it's a crime to do what these people admitted to doing.

 

If all they did was the same things everyone else in their community do, then maybe this will serve as a warning for all the other fraudulently-documented families to clean up their kids' paperwork.

[Orthodox6]

By now, I don't think that Maria is the major problem.  The fraudulent receipt of welfare money from the Greek government is what should land the couple in big-time trouble.  (Six children "born" within ten months?!  Fourteen, I think, children registered, with ten of them "missing"?!)  

 

The Bulgarian mother (now confirmed by DNA testing) is from a Roma family, isn't she?  The articles do not mention that, save obliquely to hint at it.  If so, might not it be possible for an informal "Please raise my child because I cannot do so properly?" "gift" of a baby to take place within Roma culture and to be thought acceptable within the culture?   If this is possible, then the entire story loses its "sinister" character.   

 

[Amira, might you know the answer?]

[Arcadia]

The Bulgarian mother (now confirmed by DNA testing) is from a Roma family, isn't she?  The articles do not mention that, save obliquely to hint at it.  If so, might not it be possible for an informal "Please raise my child because I cannot do so properly?" "gift" of a baby to take place within Roma culture and to be thought acceptable within the culture?   If this is possible, then the entire story loses its "sinister" character.   

 

Reuters UK edition mentioned the Bulgarian family is a Roma family

"(Reuters) - A Bulgarian Roma couple are the biological parents of a 4-year-old blonde girl found in a Roma camp in Greece last week, DNA tests showed on Friday, solving a mystery that had captured global attention.

....

Ruseva denies this, saying she left a 7-month old baby in Greece - where she worked as an olive-picker - in 2009 because she could not look after the child and needed to return to Bulgaria."

 

I have an adopted aunt that was gifted to my maternal grandma.  The official adoption papers were done much later.

[Murphy101]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/25/little-maria-s-real-roma-mother-found-in-bulgaria.html