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AP and/or SAT2 tests?


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If one takes an AP in a subject, does it do any good to also take the SAT2 in the same subject?  I had been thinking no, that you'd take SAT2s in different subjects than your APs, but I've had a couple people tell me otherwise.

 

So, is there a benefit to taking the SAT2s on top of APs? 

 

I'm asking mostly because I plan to have dds take the AP German test in the spring, and I just noticed the Sat. School had recommended that students might also want to take the SAT2 German with Listening.  I apparently didn't pay enough attention, because that's only offered once a year in Nov, and the deadline's already passed - I could still sign them up, but it would be extra $$.

 

I also didn't have one dd take the SAT2 in Bio because she's planning to take the AP next year, and someone recently told me I should have had her take the SAT2 as well.  Do most people double up or do them in different subjects??

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Take both. More and more schools want to see SAT II's. The boards at College Confidential are great for this info. Here's just one of many threads:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-subject-tests-preparation/1122177-ap-vs-sat-ii.html

 

(sorry...can't get a good link setup from my phone)

 

Give admissions reps more data to say yes to. They need numbers and data to whittle down the huge pile.

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If one takes an AP in a subject, does it do any good to also take the SAT2 in the same subject?  I had been thinking no, that you'd take SAT2s in different subjects than your APs, but I've had a couple people tell me otherwise.

 

So, is there a benefit to taking the SAT2s on top of APs? 

 

I'm asking mostly because I plan to have dds take the AP German test in the spring, and I just noticed the Sat. School had recommended that students might also want to take the SAT2 German with Listening.  I apparently didn't pay enough attention, because that's only offered once a year in Nov, and the deadline's already passed - I could still sign them up, but it would be extra $$.

 

I also didn't have one dd take the SAT2 in Bio because she's planning to take the AP next year, and someone recently told me I should have had her take the SAT2 as well.  Do most people double up or do them in different subjects??

 

 

AP tests are meant as a gauge at how well high school students did in learning AP course material, which is at an honors or college level of working. AP tests help for admission into selective schools as proof of high achievement in academics. Also, a high test score on an AP exam can count towards credit at some colleges, or at least admit freshmen into honors courses.

 

SAT II (also called SAT Subject) tests are meant as a gauge of competency of having learned high school course material. Some colleges require a few SAT II test scores from ALL students applying for admission to the school, and some colleges require a few SAT II test scores only from homeschool students, as proof of "mommy grades". SAT II tests do NOT count towards possible college credit, as they test high school level material only.

 

Universities that require SAT IIs usually require anywhere from 2 to 5 scores (depending on the school), and they want the scores in different subject areas. On the positive side, I have not heard that it is a problem at any college for the SAT IIs to be in the same area as an AP. On the negative side, schools that require the SAT IIs do NOT bend the rule and substitute your student's AP scores for SAT IIs, so your student would have to do both, if the college of choice requires SAT IIs.

 

Now is the time to figure out if any of the universities your student intends to apply to will require SAT IIs, because the best time to take the SAT II is right after having completed the coursework for that class, or for the AP version of that class. So, IF your student is going to need SAT II scores, then YES go ahead and double up.

 

 

Side note: the ACT and SAT (also called the SAT Reasoning) tests are also important for yet other reasons. Colleges want to see certain minimum ACT and SAT scores for admission, and high scores to help them in deciding on who to award scholarship monies to. Some colleges require an ACT or SAT score (instead of SAT II scores) from homeschoolers as proof of "mommy grades." So from an admission and scholarship viewpoint, it's important to also take an ACT or SAT somewhere along the way, too.

 

Also, in case it is of help, post #2 of this pinned thread ("Outsourcing, Online Classes, Tutors, Dual Enrollment, AP, SAT II, CLEP -- past threads linked here!") at the top of the high school board has a lot of great past threads discussing AP and SAT II, and the pros/cons of each. BEST of luck in your test-taking adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

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The SAT 2's and AP's serve very different purposes--SAT2's for admission by colleges that require them, and AP's mainly for college credit and/or opting out of introductory courses. (So, deliberately planning them to be in different subject areas for the sake of being in different subject areas doesn't make much sense.)

 

If you need SAT 2's for college admission (or aren't sure if you will need them), there's a certain efficiency to taking both tests in the same subject.  SAT 2's are a lot of work to prepare for and, though they are supposed to be high school level, they frequently contain a wide variety of material as well as AP-level material for curving purposes. If you are already taking an AP course, you are effectively studying for both tests in that subject at the same time (and may have a leg up on the SAT 2.)  The actual test formats and questions are vastly different, however, so you definitely need do separate test prep for each.

 

Because SAT 2's (and AP tests) are a lot of work, it's best if you can plan ahead for what you'll really need.  SAT 2 requirements and AP rules vary widely by college, so in order to plan what you'll need, you really need to check the websites for any and all colleges your dd's are or might be interested in and any colleges you think might be possibilities for them.  Especially check colleges that are selective, and colleges you want doors left open to.  This should give you some idea whether SAT 2's will be needed (and just as important: which ones!) and whether AP scores will be useful. 

 

For example, my ds did all 3 of the science SAT 2's and Math 2.  Overkill.  He applied to some of the most selective engineering and comp sci schools and only his Math and one physical science were needed (though given the extreme selectivity of the schools, the other SAT 2's might have helped in the admission decision... hard to say.)  Needless to say, I'm glad I didn't put him through the stress of the SAT 2's in Literature or Latin, which would have been totally useless.

Dd did 2 science SAT2's (repeated one for a higher score) and Math 2.  Lots of sweat and tears... and none of the schools she ended up applying to wanted SAT2's.  Sure, those SAT2's probably looked impressive on her transcript, but... it was her ACT that got her in and got her top scholarships. 

 

Also check the AP rules.  Ds took no AP tests--none of his schools gave credit for AP scores (they had their own placement tests.)  On the other hand, dd's AP Chem score came in very handy--at her school it got her out of the only chem course she needed to have, thus opening up time in her schedule to do the Honors program. 

 

So, for your situation, are your dd's aiming to major in German at college?  If so, do the language programs at the colleges they might attend require a language SAT 2 for admission?  If the answer is yes, or maybe, or you worry that not taking the German SAT 2 might close an admissions door... then they should definitely take the SAT2 (Is the listening important?  If not, the test without listening might be offered later in the year.)  If the answer is no, or it would just look nice, then... you will be okay without it, and it's just a personal decision as to whether you think it's worth going to the extra effort to have it.  The AP, though, may very well be useful for credit and/or placing higher in the German sequence at college. 

 

For bio, it looks like you have time.  If the dd who is taking AP Bio next year is headed for life sciences in college, OR you think SAT 2's could be needed for admission to any colleges she's interested in, then by all means have her take the Bio SAT 2 that same year. It's good to have a science SAT 2, if you need SAT 2's.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

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Like folks said above, do both.

 

Taking an SAT-2 exam in June just a few weeks after a student sits for the AP exam in the same subject means that you get to kill two birds with one stone. (Just do make sure to study for each test separately -- as the prep books will show, each exam has its own twists and peculiarities.)

 

Do choose your SAT-2's wisely. Some SAT-2's are amazingly hard to get a high score on -- and the colleges know that. With others (notably the Math level 2 SAT-2), the expectation is that your student will score EXTREMELY high. If he won't, he shouldn't bother to take it.

 

Best wishes -- trying to figure out the ins and outs of the testing process is a headache-producing experience!

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Take both. More and more schools want to see SAT II's. The boards at College Confidential are great for this info. Here's just one of many threads:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-subject-tests-preparation/1122177-ap-vs-sat-ii.html

 

(sorry...can't get a good link setup from my phone)

 

Give admissions reps more data to say yes to. They need numbers and data to whittle down the huge pile.

I disagree with these assertions. I have not seen "more and more schools" wanting SAT2s. In reality, there are very few schools (the Ivys & most selective ones) that absolutely require SAT2 exams.

 

I do think that having SAT2s can be a good way to add assurance to a child's application, but there are other ways to do that, including AP scores, grades from outside classes (like the OP's childrens' German class), grades from college courses, etc.

 

I think Musicmom has this just about right. Preping for SAT2 does take a lot of work. It makes sense to do it if the child is applying to schools where the scores are required, or if these SAT2 scores will be some of the only outside "validation" that you will have.

 

However, in any child's particular case, that time to prep for SAT2 might be better spent on other outside sources of validation or on a really interesting extracurricular activity that the child really loves and that will make his/her application stand out even more.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

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For a foreign language test, I don't think that it would hurt to take both the AP language exam and the SAT 2 at the end of the year.

 

Our experience is with Latin, not German, and my kids did both types of testing. There really wasn't additional studying needed for the SAT 2 once they were already on the AP language level. (Note: it's not the same for all subjects. For example, most of the science SAT2s need additional study in order to do well.)

 

My dd was glad that she took the SAT 2 Latin. While it was her AP score that would have permitted her to skip foreign language entirely in college, it was the SAT 2 score that determined her placement into upper level classes once she got there. Kids who didn't come in with a SAT 2 Latin score had to take a placement exam during orientation, which would have been an additional stress when she was busy adjusting to campus life.

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For a foreign language test, I don't think that it would hurt to take both the AP language exam and the SAT 2 at the end of the year.

 

Our experience is with Latin, not German, and my kids did both types of testing. There really wasn't additional studying needed for the SAT 2 once they were already on the AP language level. (Note: it's not the same for all subjects. For example, most of the science SAT2s need additional study in order to do well.)

 

My dd was glad that she took the SAT 2 Latin. While it was her AP score that would have permitted her to skip foreign language entirely in college, it was the SAT 2 score that determined her placement into upper level classes once she got there. Kids who didn't come in with a SAT 2 Latin score had to take a placement exam during orientation, which would have been an additional stress when she was busy adjusting to campus life.

 

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing with Latin. In the end I decided that we'd best just do both because that covers all the bases.  Mine aren't planning to continue Latin, but the mixed messages I was getting from admissions people made me think that we'd best close out the many years of study with both tests.  You don't want to lose the proof that they're functioning at that level while it is still fresh in their minds.

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A big difference not yet mentioned would be if the tests are to be taken senior year: 

 

An AP result from May of senior year arrives too late to be considered in admissions.  An SAT subject test has more test dates, so it would be possible to get a score in on time if you picked an early enough test date.  CLEP also offers flexibility in test dates, if that is a credit option for your chosen post-graduation path.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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For a foreign language test, I don't think that it would hurt to take both the AP language exam and the SAT 2 at the end of the year.

 

The annoying thing is that the SAT2 "with listening" version is only offered on Nov. 2nd (not at the end of the year), and all the languages are offered on the same day.  So, German OR Spanish.  They'll finish up their studies in both those languages next year (junior yr).  One dd is thinking of going to school in Germany, but the other will probably not continue with foreign language study after that.  I succeeded in getting them pretty close to trilingual, but not in making them avid linguists...

 

I'm thinking maybe we'll either punt the German version (they'll also have the DSD I and II exams in German, as well as AP) and do Spanish next year, or maybe do one the Nov of senior year (although they wouldn't have been taking a class in either since May or June of the preceding year?)   I think I'm leaning toward punting it. ;)

 

Anyone know what's math is on the Math1 and Math2 exams?  Would anyone even be vaguely impressed by a Math1 exam considering there's a Math2?

 

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Anyone know what's math is on the Math1 and Math2 exams?  Would anyone even be vaguely impressed by a Math1 exam considering there's a Math2?

Math 2 tests up through PreCalc. Math 1 tests up through Algebra 2.

 

If the student has had PreCalc, she is much better off taking Math 2. The curve for Math 2 is actually a bit more relaxed than the curve for Math 1, in other words, you can miss a few more on the Math 2 and still get an 800.

 

HTH,

Brenda

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I disagree with these assertions. I have not seen "more and more schools" wanting SAT2s. In reality, there are very few schools (the Ivys & most selective ones) that absolutely require SAT2 exams.

 

Absolutely require is subjective, based on the competitiveness of the college and the program within the college to which you apply.  Per the College Board:  "Approximately 160 institutions require or recommend SATSubject Test scores for admission and placement of incoming students."   On that list are indeed Amherst College, with a 2012 admissions rate of 11.9%, but also the University of Mobile, with an admissions rate of 80%.

 

On the flip side, fairtest.org maintains a sizable list of schools who no longer require the SAT I at all.   Granted, some of them are still very competitive, like Middlebury, which kinda hedges its bets with a policy of "SAT/ACT not required if other college level exams specified by school, such as SAT Subject Test, Advanced Placement, or Int’l Baccalaureate, submitted."

 

There's also the idea that if you make your school "SAT-optional," the only scores you'll receive are from standout students with 2350's, which certainly doesn't make you look too shabby in the US News rankings.

 

It's still a big game....a very expensive, big game.

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The annoying thing is that the SAT2 "with listening" version is only offered on Nov. 2nd (not at the end of the year), and all the languages are offered on the same day.  So, German OR Spanish.  They'll finish up their studies in both those languages next year (junior yr).  One dd is thinking of going to school in Germany, but the other will probably not continue with foreign language study after that.  I succeeded in getting them pretty close to trilingual, but not in making them avid linguists...

 

I'm thinking maybe we'll either punt the German version (they'll also have the DSD I and II exams in German, as well as AP) and do Spanish next year, or maybe do one the Nov of senior year (although they wouldn't have been taking a class in either since May or June of the preceding year?)   I think I'm leaning toward punting it. ;)

Oh, that is annoying about the SAT 2 German with listening. The Latin SAT 2 is only offered twice a year, but at least one of those dates is in the spring.

 

I didn't catch before that your kids were doing the DSD exams, too. Those plus the AP sound like plenty to me. Just check whether or not SAT 2s are needed for admission purposes at any colleges on your list before ruling them out.

 

Anyone know what's math is on the Math1 and Math2 exams?  Would anyone even be vaguely impressed by a Math1 exam considering there's a Math2?

Here's a comparison for you: Choosing between Math Levels 1 & 2  (scroll down to find that tab)

 

Colleges differ as to which math SAT2 exam they prefer, so you'll need to check out your college list. There are some surprises out there. MIT, for example, requires a math subject test but doesn't care which level. Some other tech schools require Math2 level.

 

Some other thoughts...Math 1 only requires algebra 2 and geometry, but it's graded on a harsher scale, and each mistake takes more points off the final score. Math 2 requires precalculus, but you can make more errors & still end up with a nice score. But -the percentiles assigned to a given score trend lower on the Math 2 because more of the top students take that one, & they score high as a group. (I tend not to worry about %iles, though)

 

The best thing to do before you decide which one to take is to get a copy of the College Board's Real SAT Subject Tests book & try their sample exams.

 

Spark Notes is also useful for (free) practice, and CB sells a math practice book with a couple of additional released SAT Math subject exams.

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My daughter took the SAT subject test in American History as well as the AP US History test since she was planning on applying to colleges that required a given number of SAT subject test scores. She did likewise with Latin. Her other SAT subject test was the Math Level 2 test (no similar AP). She also took AP tests in Statistics and Comparative Government and Politics (no similar SAT subject tests). This worked well for her.

Regards,
Kareni

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