Please Help with Kindergarten Concerns :(

[displace]

Hello,

Brief background: we recently moved twice.  I was Homeschooling, and recently enrolled him 2 weeks ago in PS.  At home we were going slowly through AAR pre-reading and HWT curriculum, anticipating up to a year to finish K.

 

The problem?  Our new school district's K is actually a first grade type curriculum.  By this time of the year, the children are expected to know all upper and lowercase letters, phonics, and a lot more writing than DS has.

So he is Behind.  And I'm feeling pressure to get him caught up.

 

DS is young and also "young for his age" and is starting to display dislike for school because of all the sitting around that occurs. 

 

There is light homework (reading everyday), poem worksheets, and we're working on the math sheets he wasn't there for.  Today we had to do an extra sheet (recognizing the word white, writing white, circling white, etc).  One problem is we worked on it right before bedtime (I forgot all about it), and by the end of the sheet he was crying and sad, frustrated because he "couldn't do it" and just a disturbed student.  I was sad for pushing him to do the sheet, felt like I failed him for moving so slowly while HS and doing the sheet so late at night, and upset at the circumstances (moving, being so young in K, an advanced K curriculum, etc).  I feel he's very intelligent and understands a lot and if he starting K next year he might be bored.

 

I guess my whole reason for posting is to get advice (No homework late at night from now on!) on keeping school fun and interesting as well as adjusting to a rigorous school setting.  Also, if you've been in somewhat similar positions and have any advice/experience (as in: did your child do fine after a few weeks "catching up" or settling in, defocusing on school, or whatever), please share.  My biggest worry is that this whole experience will cause him to dislike the whole idea of school.  I mean, to cry about homework in Kindergarten?  That is just unacceptable to me and I'm hoping it was a one-time tired-thing.  Though sometimes working on the poems I see him make a lot of frustrated faces and I'm lightly concerned.  Maybe it's how I approach doing work with him?  Or maybe just him not understanding what to do and as he advances it won't be so hard.

 

My current strategy besides not doing work before bedtime involves M&M bribes, which I'm not happy about but I'm out of good options.  I've also invested in a couple of "fun" ABC apps for my phone and board games with alphabet emphasis.  I'm also thinking of having him join an after-school karate or something that he may enjoy, with the goal of improving self-confidence if he likes it.  I also have Mindset to read on my Kindle as I'm wondering if it's more of a philosophy problem than actual inability.

 

Any advice and stories will be appreciated.  I was really upset after what happened last night and hope there's someone who can share. 

Thanks  :(

 

[Uff Da!]

Here's what we do for homework time. Maybe it will help:

 

It took us a solid month to get into the homework routine with my five year old. She gets a quiet break afterschool with an audiobook if she wants it. Then she goes into the kitchen for "Tea Time". I make that table as gorgeous as I can: nice new sharpened pencils, a snack that is pretty to look at or cute and hot chocolate. She snacks and does homework at the same time. When she needs help staying focused, I have her sit on my lap and we use the colored pencils so her homework looks like a rainbow. I tell her the homework only "needs to be done and good enough. Not perfect."

 

We did the M&M thing in the beginning. She still wants them sometimes. I also tried to do homework after supper because I would rather she play outside afterschool. That was a huge fail.

 

ETA: I detested what initially felt like bullying my daughter to do homework. I really focus on our relationship during homework and making tea time special for us.

 

Hugs. I don't know what I would do if I was in your shoes with a smart, lively boy that isn't ready for the work being handed out. I would probably send an e-mail to the teacher to start out.

[mom2bee]

Have you contacted the teacher at the school? Asked her for her ideas/feedback to help your son transition and do well at school?

 

Perhaps Leap Frog Letter Factory can help your son learn his letters and sounds in a timely manner so that he can still experience success along with his classmates. Does your son like card games?

 

What about a memory match game where he matches uppercase and lower case letters and each time you make a pair, you sing the refrain for that letter from the Letter Factory song (i.e. if he's matched G and g then you guys sing "The G says /g/, the G says /g/ every letter makes a sound and G says /g/!!!") to reinforce the letters. Also work on blending for about 5 minutes each day, 5 minutes or 10 words, but do it everyday. First just orally, and later do some oral and some print blending, even if you are only demonstrating the same skill for him 100 times in the beginning it is very beneficial for many kids to have blending demonstrated for them.

 

If handwriting is an issue, get some letter tiles or fridge magnets and some of those books on colors and as you guys read through them, have him build (or write) each word. Have you heard of ReadingBear? Take a look around the website and see if it is something that you think might help your son. There is also Starfall, Bob Books and Progressive Phonics.

 

I don't know what the homework routine is like in your home, but if you think that it could be improved, I'm sure that you'll find a way. If you are still floundering to get your little guy feeling comfortable and confident and the teacher isn't being responsive or is unable to meet your needs then perhaps you could inquire about another K class and having your son moved?

 

Best of luck!

[Spy Car]

Don't bribe your child with M&Ms unless you want him to develop eating disorders and health problems. That is the WRONG message.

 

The K work you are describing is standard Kindergarten work these days. In fact, it is on the "light side" of expectations (not the rigorous side).

 

Best advice? Balance after-school play (which kids need) with conscientious attention to the homework and other fundamentals he needs to study (done in a positive frame of mind). break it up.

 

The Leapfrog DVDs mentioned by Mom2bee are a great resource. In addition to the entry level "Talking Letter factory" she mentioned, I would strongly recommend the two follow-ups "Talking Words Factory I & II." These are great for going over the basic phonics and blends in a fun way.

 

Bill

[SKL]

At least in the case of my kids' KG, things got a lot easier over time because it was basically the same assignment over and over.  The number / letter / word / pictures would be different, but the kid knew exactly what to do so it became mindless practice pretty soon.

 

My kids did their KG homework in aftercare (before I picked them up).  They would have consequences from me (and still have to do the work) if it wasn't done when I picked up.  That way there was no issue with them being too tired etc.  If your child doesn't go to aftercare, then have a set time for it at home, when no exciting distractions are present. Have him do it right before something he enjoys so there is an incentive to get done.

 

If it isn't perfect, that should not matter at this age.  I would just make sure he understands the instructions and encourage him to complete the page on his own.  That way there is no battle.   If it isn't done within a reasonable amount of time, send it in unfinished and let the teacher deal directly with him.

[displace]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions so far.  I do think I'm going to change from M&Ms idea to nickels or something like that as I'm not really keen on using food as a reward. 

 

Re: his teacher.  She's aware of his academic needs and seems very competent.  She does small groups with him and other students who need help as well.  I have great confidence in her as she has a Master's and has been teaching K for 18 years, plus was teaching special ed before that.  She mentioned that 6 years ago the curriculum changed, whereas before they took the whole year to know the letters and sounds, now they are expected to know it by the end of the first report card period.

 

I really like the idea of having tea or a special time for just us to focus in a nice manner doing work. 

 

I used to have the letter factory and DS actually knew all the sounds when he was 2 or 3 y/o, but has "forgotten" it, or maybe just isn't making the connection between the written letter and the sounds.  I'm going to start replaying it now.  He knew it so well I packed it away.  I have been limiting his screen time to mostly just leapfrog recently or Word Girl.  I'm considering getting a subscription to reading eggs but sometimes he gets in the "guess until I get it right" computer mindset. 

 

He's also needing a lot of fine motor skill attention, so I'm switching worksheets homework with mazes/tissue art/etc to make in between assignments.

 

I'm confident he'll catch up, though I don't know how long it will take.  In the meantime I'm just concerned he'll have the mindset that school is hard, even when it may not be in the future or with subjects he grasps quickly.  I just had a much different exposure to school.  I was older when I started, K was much easier, it was easy for me, and I loved school.  Of course I want a similar experience for DS and a love of learning.  So I'm feeling like a task-master instead of sharing a love of school that I had.

 

[MissKNG]

Changing the reward to nickels is a better idea than food.

 

But I do have to mention that an eating disorder is a much more complicated issue that doesn't just develop by bribing a child with M&Ms.

[SKL]

I'm confident he'll catch up, though I don't know how long it will take.  In the meantime I'm just concerned he'll have the mindset that school is hard, even when it may not be in the future or with subjects he grasps quickly.  I just had a much different exposure to school.  I was older when I started, K was much easier, it was easy for me, and I loved school.  Of course I want a similar experience for DS and a love of learning.  So I'm feeling like a task-master instead of sharing a love of school that I had.

 

It is not necessarily a bad thing to have to work at school.  Think of other things in his childhood that he has had to try again and again to master.  Kids are not automatically turned off to working hard or trying again.  Be careful not to project your feelings about this on him.

 

I was the opposite from you - young for my grade and in a relatively rigorous KG.  The only thing I disliked about school was the social aspect and not always understanding what the teacher wanted.  As for the challenging academics, I ate it up.  Your son might well do the same.  Watch and see.

 

[SKL]

Just a word of caution - it is his homework, not yours.  Not a good idea of getting into the habit of doing it with  him or packing it up for him as it is not a shared responsibility. If it is too hard, send it back. If he wants company, put him in the kitchen while you are prepping dinner.

 

Heigh Ho, I am going to start a new thread about this.  I hope you don't mind.  :)  I would have said exactly the same thing when my kids were younger, and I do agree with respect to KG homework.

 

[mathnerd]

My extremely active boy does not like to sit and do homework at the end of the day. So, I let him know that he needs to finish his homework in order for me to take him to his extracurricular classes. He loves these classes and looks forward to them all day long - so he zips through his homework in a jiffy and gets ready because of his eagerness to go to his evening classes. Also, every time he finishes one sheet of homework without whining or asking for mom's participation and if he practices his instrument without complaining, I give a sticker of his choice (fun superhero and star wars themes) to paste in his sticker book. When the count reaches 100 stickers, he can trade the stickers for a Lego set of his choice. Try to see if this method works in your family. And please do not give your son M&M's ... even though I know that it is a personal decision on your part and I live with a sugar junkie spouse, I am anti-sugar, especially so for young children.

[The Way of My People]

I second the advice about tackling homework early. I let DS watch one episode of the old Transformers cartoon (his current interest) right after school, provided he practiced piano with a good attitude before school. As soon as the episode is over, he does homework.

 

At this point, he needs a lot of hand holding during homework - so I stay right there with him. He doesn't love homework, but he's usually very motivated because he knows that once he's done he's totally free to play until bedtime.

[ondreeuh]

 by the end of the sheet he was crying and sad, frustrated because he "couldn't do it" and just a disturbed student.  I was sad for pushing him to do the sheet, felt like I failed him for moving so slowly while HS and doing the sheet so late at night, and upset at the circumstances (moving, being so young in K, an advanced K curriculum, etc).  I feel he's very intelligent and understands a lot and if he starting K next year he might be bored.

 

 

I would pull him out and re-try next year. I would be FAR more concerned about the damage of pushing my child beyond what he is developmentally ready to do than I would be about him possibly being bored next year. He is young for his grade and he has only been there 2 weeks? I would withdraw him immediately, spend the year on what he is ready for.

 

My son is far beyond what his class is covering in kindergarten and he is not really bored. He is being challenged at home, and he LOVES it. He feels super confident.

[Nart]

How young is he? Did he make the kindergarten cut-off by days, weeks, a couple of months? You might want to ask the kindergarten teacher if many of the boys were "redshirted" and are actually a year older than your son. In my son's kindergarten class, a third of the boys were redshirted. 

[jennynd]

How young is he? Did he make the kindergarten cut-off by days, weeks, a couple of months? You might want to ask the kindergarten teacher if many of the boys were "redshirted" and are actually a year older than your son. In my son's kindergarten class, a third of the boys were redshirted.

That was my thought too. The kinder work mentioned are pretty standard. If it is already getting too much especially on the writing side which is typical for boys. You might want to consider redshirt him. Challenging is good but if to the point that a kid hates school, it might be time to consider alternatives.

[eleileen]

I have a younger kindergartener (end of July boy). Try to have set (short) times to focus on specific kindergarten skills afterschool. Is he in a half or full day program? I would recommend some rest time, and then 15-20 min intervals of doing different 'stations' & activities, and after completing a task successfully, he gets an incentive (play on pc, watch a show, build legos, finger painting, etc). Soon, he will get use to 'homework' time and 'afterschool' work time.

Would it be an option to pull him out of school, do a rigorous program (at his pace) at home for kindergarten and for him to start grade 1 slightly ahead? We went from having a speech delayed child (he did not speak properly until around age 3.5) to one who is reading fluently by age 4.5-5, and 'enjoys' school/work.

[akalori]

I have both ends of the spectrum. A son who was a couple of years behind and a daughter who is a few years ahead. Both attend public school. I after school inconsistently. I provide a very rich environment at home with many ideas garnished from this forum; but, with my son's needs, formal after schooling isn't always possible. I knew my son was behind early on, so I put him through a Herculean after schooling routine to catch up starting in pre-k. Despite my positive attitude and lots of positive reinforcement, he was exhausted and down trodden by first grade. I became very alarmed for his overall mental health. I completely reversed direction. I stopped formal after schooling and even refused homework for a year. I continued to read to him, listen to NPR and documentaries with him, etc. His interests led and I enriched accordingly. I am so glad I changed my approach. This change in attitude has lead to some amazing experiences. Surprisingly sometimes it even led back to some formal afterschooling. One year we worked up to doing 100 math problems every morning before school for about 5 months. He loved bragging about it and didn't want to stop until we got tripped up by some exhausting school work demands. My son is still lagging in some areas. Now I think he might be about 1 year behind in math and reading but he is ahead in science. He loves to learn and is self directed and highly motivated. There are many kids who develope right on schedule (or even ahead of schedule). Then they graduate and never pick up a book again. I've let go of needing my son to get caught up as soon as possible. Instead I'm nurturing him to become a person who is always curious and evolving. In many ways my son has set me free of needing to compare and measure up to others. We are very outside of the box. It feels like all of the rules and expectations don't even apply to us. We don't follow the normal trajectory and yet sometimes there are unexpected bursts of greatness. Adversity builds character. He is really a very interesting person, and you can't honestly say that about most 10 year old kids. I don't know where your son's struggles might lead. If you make sure that you are nurturing him at his own speed, valuing him as person, and protecting his self esteem, while tuning out all of the background noise and competativeness, he will have the best outcome. Good Luck.

[SKL]

Adversity builds character. He is really a very interesting person, and you can't honestly say that about most 10 year old kids. I don't know where your son's struggles might lead. If you make sure that you are nurturing him at his own speed, valuing him as person, and protecting his self esteem, while tuning out all of the background noise and competativeness, he will have the best outcome. Good Luck.

I agree, especially with the "valuing him as a person" part.  The key is to not let him think that his value is tied to how he does on schoolwork.

 

[displace]

Wow, thanks for all the replies, advice, and stories.  For some additional background info, DS's birthday is about 2 weeks before the cutoff, and he was born premature so should have actually missed K cutoff.  I didn't realize K had changed so much, though through this experience I'm of course learning otherwise. 

 

Yesterday's afterschool went much better.  My toddler took a late nap so I could just focus on DS.  I let him watch one leapfrog show, then we did the homework sheets.  Each sheet would probably take him 15 min if he went straight through, but there is groaning and moaning involved ("it'll take forever!"), and I allow a break halfway through each sheet.  The math sheets are super easy for him conceptually, but there is a lot of reinforcement of writing numbers, which he struggles with.  We also did some poem work (this is part of a weekly assignment) for a few minutes, and read a short book.  I think it took 2 hr, including frequent breaks for snack, tea, leapfrog shows, etc.  We skipped additional fine motor stuff and went playing at the park for 2 hrs afterwards.

 

Mood-wise there was a great difference.  He did not say he couldn't do it or didn't understand, just whining about doing it.  It still took way too long IMO.  I think I'll switch a lot of the math to the weekends instead, as well as poem work.  He received a coin as a reward.  Today we talked about working hard and the goal to be to keep doing our best and trying.  I want him to work hard, but also not be discouraged.  Since we've just started this homework this week we're still learning a routine.  And I want to give him a chance to succeed, as it's been hard to adjust to moving twice, starting a new school, etc.

[SKL]

I just want to suggest that you look into how rigorous 1st grade is in his school.  For my kid, who is young compared to her classmates (a third of whom were redshirted), KG was a reasonable challenge, but 1st grade was full of unpleasant surprises.  Not sure if that's true in other schools or not.

[freesia]

You might want to ask the teacher if it would be okay for you to write the answers for him on the math sheet. Then you can have him practice writing numbers daily, as well. I really doubt the teacher wants K homework to take 2 hours. I taught first and second grade and would never have wanted homework to take that long.

 

I scribe for math for my boys until mid second grade. The boys are late bloomers in fine motor. (And yes, ds 1 "caught up in writing" even though I scribed. Earlier would have just discouraged him. Writing numbers in math would have turned him off from math.Ds 2's fine motor is just beginning to "come together" but he still loves math.) In other words, don't make math a handwriting assignment unless the teacher wants it to be.

[SKL]

Just a thought, but have you had his vision checked to make sure he doesn't have convergence issues etc.?  My eldest had a very hard time forming letters/numbers until she had vision therapy.  And after VT she was right on track with writing.  Of course it affected reading as well, but it was most stark with writing.

[jenbrdsly]

All the previous posters have said what I would say.  I'll only add, if TV and computers can solve this problem for you, go for it.  Talking Words Factory 1 and 2 (Code Word Capers), are great.  There is also "Meet the Phonics" which is good too.

 

I've got some more ideas on my blog.  Good luck!

[kiwik]

I would assume pulling him out and trying again next year is out for the same reasons as home schooling? I would talk to his teacher though about how long it is supposed to take.

[msk]

The K work the OP describes is pretty typical for my area, too.  Sometimes it seems like one third of the people on this board live in a place where PS is a waste of space where nobody ever learns to read at all; another third live where it consists of difficult 16-hour days followed by 8 hours of developmentally inappropriate homework; and another third live in a place where it's somehow both at once.  Neither my PS nor my kids' remotely resemble any of these, so I guess we're lucky.  ;-)

 

Have you tried doing homework in the morning?  Things take half as long before school at my house as they do after.  I am not a morning person, but getting up 15 minutes earlier is worth it.  Morning exercise helps too (walking to school instead of driving in our case).

 

I can sympathize-- when my daughter started K two years ago many/most kids in her class could read already and she couldn't, and I hadn't been expecting that.  I just tried to keep emphasizing "some kids already did the work to learn this, you are doing that work now" and telling her it would be just as easy for her as it seemed to the others in her class once she'd done the work and practice they'd done.  We emphasized that everything is a learned skill that takes practice, including sitting still, following directions, getting along with classmates, etc., and tried to point out which things came easily to her and which took more work, and how different things come easily vs take work to different kids.  It sounds obvious and trite, but just repeating variations on that conversation every time worries hit really helped my daughter get over her dismay when she wasn't immediately a superstar at everything.  (So did catching up with and then passing those grade level expectations, but that took time.) 

 

It takes much less time and is much easier to teach a normal 5-6yo to read than a normal 3-4yo, so "catching up" is really not as big a deal in the long run as it seems when you're in the thick of it for those first few months (at least in my experience).  My daughter is in 2nd grade now, reading well above grade level, and will spend hours at a time reading for fun; I don't think being behind in early K did her any harm at all.  She LOVES school, even though homework annoys or frustrates her occasionally-- she definitely sees school and homework as two different things.

 

I agree with others that having to work hard on things sometimes in elementary school is good, as long as it's framed as "brain exercise" and not stress.  Thinking "everything in school is easy for me, so I must be smart" can lead to a serious crash when things eventually get difficult and your definition of "smart" is linked to everything being easy.  The later that crash comes the worse it will probably be (I saw this happen to people in college, with bad results).  Learning to get past frustration and feel good at the end of a tough project is good, and I think it's the reason a lot of people do extra things after school.  A continuous frustrated face would be bad, but intermittent ones are better for my daughter than watching her breeze airly through things.

[eloquacious]

Just a thought, but have you had his vision checked to make sure he doesn't have convergence issues etc.? My eldest had a very hard time forming letters/numbers until she had vision therapy. And after VT she was right on track with writing. Of course it affected reading as well, but it was most stark with writing.

I noticed my son has gotten significantly better at writing since the start of the school year. I had thought it was just all the practice, but now I'm wondering if his new glasses are a factor as well.

[Tsuga]

I would assume pulling him out and trying again next year is out for the same reasons as home schooling? I would talk to his teacher though about how long it is supposed to take.

 

Around here, apparently it is the norm to keep your child out of kindergarten unless they will be six by at least April.

 

There are no late birthdays in my daughter's class, primarily for the following reasons:

 

1. There is just something that clicks at the age of 6.5 - 7.5 and it can't click earlier. You can familiarize a child with rules and school but symbolic and abstract reasoning will just not be there.
2. The school curriculum has been "advanced" so tasks that require the "click" are being foisted upon children who are just not there yet, cognitively, not because they are stupid but because their brains are still growing (like asking a small child to play soccer with a regulation-size ball, it's not that the child doesn't have talent, it's just not the right task to practice).
3. Everybody else redshirts (6y10mo being the average age at the start of first grade in my child's class), so what happens is that the curriculum moves foward with only one or two "little" kids behind. Those kids, rather than being recognized as a full year and a half younger than the oldest children, just feel "behind". (The school board won't complain as redshirting means higher test scores at every level.) Nobody wants this for their own child, so redshirting just gets exacerbated. The oldest child in my daughter's class will be eight in February, in the first grade. He's very "advanced".

(By "no late birthdays", I mean every single child in the class will be seven by April--and the youngest one is struggling to keep up.)

 

In theory, I believe school districts should be extremely strict about this and demand that children go into school at grade level, and if they cannot, that they be put in special remedial education. Redshirting is ridiculous.

 

In reality, for an individual parent whose job it is to support a child, I am not opposed to keeping a child in a grade where they are the average age. It's insane, but in our school district, putting a June birthday child in kindergarten requires a ton of moral courage and strong principles, because you're effectively ensuring your child will be in the bottom half of the class, performance wise, unless your child is in the 99.99th percentile for development. That is not a made-up statistic: that is the actual percentile you need to be in to work a solid two grade levels ahead, and since a lot of kids are a solid one-grade level ahead, if they're 18 months older than your child... you get the picture.

 

Gifted education testing begins at the end of first grade, too, so they "age-out" late birthday kids who were not redshirted.

 

I could go on and on about this issue, which I view as a pressing social concern, but my point is:

 

You have a lot of good advice here, but if redshirting and advanced curriculum have made kindergarten the new first grade in your area, there is nothing wrong with keeping your child in pre-k for another year.

 

 

[vonfirmath]

I am curious what things there are that click at 6.5 - 7.5?  My son is <6.5 (He'll be 6.5 in February) and in first grade now and doing rather well. (Minor difficulties but I have a hard time imagining another year would make a difference) and I'm wondering what I should be looking forward to?

[SKL]

I am curious what things there are that click at 6.5 - 7.5?  My son is <6.5 (He'll be 6.5 in February) and in first grade now and doing rather well. (Minor difficulties but I have a hard time imagining another year would make a difference) and I'm wondering what I should be looking forward to?

 

Good question.  I wish I had the answer, and I wish it had come to me a year ago.  ;)

 

[eleileen]

I've seen both sides of the coin. One of my dearest friend kept her son back one year (early Aug birthday). He was so scared of school by the time his turn came about & had lost his confidence, while he is doing okay now (reading at/slightly below grade level in grade 1), I think he didn't gain much by sitting out the year.

Quick a few people had suggested we held DS1 back a year, I am glad we did not. Despite being one of the youngest in class, he is thriving & really enjoys school. Had we waited another year, I am not sure that he would have lost a lot more skills, but I do not think he would have benefited either.

[Tsuga]

I am curious what things there are that click at 6.5 - 7.5?  My son is <6.5 (He'll be 6.5 in February) and in first grade now and doing rather well. (Minor difficulties but I have a hard time imagining another year would make a difference) and I'm wondering what I should be looking forward to?

 

Seven, they used to say, was the "age of reason" and it's the age most countries send their children to academic school. They literally turn on their reasoning somewhere around this time.

 

A general description:

 

http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241

 

Piaget's theory (hardly the bible, but an interesting single perspective):

 

http://children.webmd.com/piaget-stages-of-development

 

I don't know what it is, but all of a sudden, like magic, my kid is able to do multiplication, connect addition to multiplication, figure out how to spell new words from looking at other words, and basically just... reason.

 

I know with my own child, I have been banging my head against the wall to get her to understand places (tens, ones) and basic multiplication (double of three is 3+3, for example), and to get her to read words based on patterns and rules of English. I was like, "you know your numbers, you can compute things, how can you not see this?" (Obviously I didn't say that. But after we would finish our lesson, I was like... what am I saying wrong?)

 

I am not kidding when I say that she basically learned all of these things simultaneously her first week of first grade (a month shy of seven). I'm sure all the prep work helped, but the point is, before that it just did not compute. It was all floating around in her brain like so many sparkly fairies and unicorn farts. She could compute sums and subtract on her fingers, but abstract reasoning of any kind, including analogies, were painful. And again, she seemed so smart in some ways!

 

But literally three weeks ago, she all of a sudden got Amelia Bedelia. Before, she just read it like... huh, what a silly woman.

 

Then, boom. "TAG! She thinks she has to TAG things but it's not that kind of tag! Hahahahahahahaha!"

 

Click.

 

The thing that is important to this discussion in particular is that if OP's child is struggling because they're foisting these skills on five and six year olds who are just not there yet, then I feel she's equally justified either in scaffolding, or emotionally supporting him, or waiting a year to put him in when he's developmentally there. You just can't rush brain development, no matter how much preparation you do (and I'm really big on preparation).

 

@vonfirmath, your child may either have a developmentally appropriate curriculum, or he could have had the "click" this summer. My child's just a bit older and she's doing very well in first grade. But these kids are older and OP's son is a very young five, and some schools have first-grade tasks starting in kindergarten. That's just a world of difference to what our kids are going through right now.

[SKL]

That's interesting about the age of reason, but how does it interact with the theory (or fact?) that gifted kids' brains mature later than average kids' brains?  (I think I read that somewhere recently.)

 

And also, I've been around plenty of 7- and even 8-year-olds who still act like they belong in KG.  I think there is a lot of variation in when kids reach the age of reason individually.

 

Trying to look at my kids without bias, I think they are average or better in school-related reasoning despite being the youngest kids in their class.  Yes, if my kids were in first grade instead of 2nd, their teacher would find Miss A much easier to work with - Miss A would need no assistance or attention - but that doesn't sound ideal to me somehow.

[Tsuga]

 

That's interesting about the age of reason, but how does it interact with the theory (or fact?) that gifted kids' brains mature later than average kids' brains?  (I think I read that somewhere recently.)

 

I think that "gifted" is quite a poorly defined term, to be honest. To some it means high IQ, to others it means high ability (e.g. someone on the autistic spectrum could have the same IQ as someone else on the spectrum, but if one is functional and the other is not, one individual would say they're both gifted, and another would say that only the high functioning one is gifted), to others it seems to be nothing more than precocious (which would definitely not be late maturing, by definition). "My kid could read at the age of three but he just hasn't been living up to his potential and in spite of all our work he only gets Bs, but we know he's gifted." To some, it could be any kid with an IQ over 130, but to others, nothing below 155 could possibly be considered even for a public school gifted education program--and if you've met people in this range you know that's a huge difference in terms of life trajectory.

 

Some people think the term "twice exceptional" is ridiculous: if you need extra help to be a high achiever, then you aren't a high achiever. Still others think nearly every gifted child needs help in some area or another and that it's really uncommon to find a super high-capacity kid who doesn't have a special need in some area or another.

 

I'm sure that some exceptionally bright children mature later, and still others bloom later. There may be something structurally different in their brains, or there may be a totally different timeline in development.

 

However, I personally would want to see a very specific definition of "giftedness" and a very specific study before I bought that. The age of 6-7 as a developmental milestone is extremely well documented.

 

I think there is a lot of variation in when kids reach the age of reason individually.

Definitely. It's more like, "They'll get teeth between about six months and a year, they'll start to speak between about nine months and two years, they'll be able to do some abstract thinking between six and eight, and they'll start puberty between 10 and 13, at least about 90 - 95% of them will."

 

My point is not so much that it has to happen on a specific timeline for 100% of the population (it's a biological population, there is going to be a bell curve and there will be people at both ends), but that it's a very real and well-documented developmental phase that is required for a lot of first grade tasks nowadays, particularly subtraction with numbers and reading fluently. And that difference, that cognitive development, is not something you can train for or work for, just like you can't make a baby talk, or stop a girl from beginning to flush when she sees a cute boy. It just happens.

 

Your own children may be precocious or they may just be able to go way ahead the whole way through school. There's always that kid who is four feet in the second grade, but never grows after the age of 12; and the other child who is a shorty all along and then BOOM puberty stretches the poor thing out like the rack. I'm sure brain development is also quite varied.

 

Whether it happens earlier or later for high IQ children, and whether the bell curve is skewed to the right, the left, or whatever, is a moot point. We know that there's a phase that everyone goes through at some point, and OP's child is on the cusp.

 

 

[sunnyday]

That's interesting about the age of reason, but how does it interact with the theory (or fact?) that gifted kids' brains mature later than average kids' brains?  (I think I read that somewhere recently.)

 

What I understand is that gifted kids can accelerate through the Piaget stages and reach them sooner (so they can be doing what we think of as Logic stage work earlier than the norm) but that they develop mature executive function ability more slowly than average.

 

I have had so many people tell me that kids often "perk" in reading at about the Christmas break in first grade. We are in a district where redshirting is definitely not the norm -- parents need to be able to stop paying for full day daycare so they are eager to send their kids as soon as eligible, and anyway the district can't afford the high-stakes sports teams where size relative to grade would make a difference.

 

Getting to know my son's peers I've certainly seen a lot of kids seem to shift developmentally at 6.5-7, in everything from math and reading to focus and self-control. But that doesn't mean it's not frustrating that increasing expectations make it difficult for kids before that age to cope with first grade work. My son's little friend with a June birthday was in tears over not being able to read before first grade, and that just sucks. I'm not a fan of fast and furious acceleration into academics -- I think slow and steady wins the race, without burning kids out on school before they even reach their teen years.

[SKL]

I do think that kids are being asked to do more in younger grades.  I'm very uncomfortable with some of this.  The curriculum is supposed to suit the kids eligible for the class, not the other way around.  Of course my opinion doesn't help the OP at this point.

[SKL]

Just tonight I was talking to my just-turned-7yo who is in 2nd grade.  Her class is subtracting 3-digit numbers with regrouping.  I told Miss A that I don't remember having to do this at the beginning of 2nd grade.  Yes, it's frustrating, but I know she's not the only second-grader finding it difficult.  She will get it because we will keep working on it (positively) until she does.  I don't know if this "clicks" for other average 2nd graders or not, but I kind of doubt it.  Maybe much later in the year.

[Tsuga]

Subtracting three-digit-numbers, though, is not that conceptually different from subtracting one-digit numbers. It's more steps, but it's still abstract reasoning.

 

Yet for many little ones up to the age of six or seven, you cannot convince them that a nickel is worth more than a penny even though a nickel has a five on it. The manipulative value trumps the abstract meaning of the figure "5". Going from the dots to the figure: that is the huge leap they are able to make, that most children just can't add and subtract well before that happens. Too many dots. Or when they lose the dots in their head, the seven and five become meaningless, and the operation falls apart.

 

It is that abstract reasoning that allows humans to do all kinds of arithmetic, from 3+6 all the way through multiplying three digits together. And that is what many kindergarteners and first graders struggle with in a maladapted curriculum. The children whose brains haven't undergone that development just can't do those operations with symbols.

 

Once the abstract, symbolic reasoning clicks, it's just a matter of practice and you have a whole myriad of skills at your fingertips. But before that, no amount of practice can make it make sense to them.

[Spy Car]

Sorry, but I don't buy this "magical brain click" suddenly happening at 6.5 one bit.

 

Bill

[SKL]

Subtracting three-digit-numbers, though, is not that conceptually different from subtracting one-digit numbers. It's more steps, but it's still abstract reasoning.

 

Yet for many little ones up to the age of six or seven, you cannot convince them that a nickel is worth more than a penny even though a nickel has a five on it. The manipulative value trumps the abstract meaning of the figure "5". Going from the dots to the figure: that is the huge leap they are able to make, that most children just can't add and subtract well before that happens. Too many dots. Or when they lose the dots in their head, the seven and five become meaningless, and the operation falls apart.

 

It is that abstract reasoning that allows humans to do all kinds of arithmetic, from 3+6 all the way through multiplying three digits together. And that is what many kindergarteners and first graders struggle with in a maladapted curriculum. The children whose brains haven't undergone that development just can't do those operations with symbols.

 

Once the abstract, symbolic reasoning clicks, it's just a matter of practice and you have a whole myriad of skills at your fingertips. But before that, no amount of practice can make it make sense to them.

 

Hmm, I don't see it that way.  Most kids I know can subtract, e.g., 9-6, or even 16-9, long before they can make sense of 942-676.  Both of my kids could do simple single-digit subtraction mentally by age 5.  We used to do it in the car after I picked them up from KG.  For that matter, they could do rudimentary multiplication and division at that age as well (when presented as word problems).

 

 

[SKL]

I wonder if things will start to "click" later as average age in 1st grade gets older and older.

 

My eldest is very average in academic ability, and yet I hear bright kids her same age, who are in a younger grade, having exactly the same struggles she had a year ago.  A year ago I thought maybe her problem was being young, but now I think it was just something most kids have to struggle with sooner or later.  Which IMO speaks against "later" becoming the norm.

[Tsuga]

 

I wonder if things will start to "click" later as average age in 1st grade gets older and older.

 

I don't think I'm being very clear.

 

There is a well-documented, well-known neurological change which happens around the ages of 6-7, that allows for abstract reasoning. It's not a question of training.

 

Even the charts often cut off between six and seven. You'll see "early childhood" vs. "middle childhood".

 

It seems extremely unlikely to change this sort of development through curriculum, although there will be variation between children. That would be like trying to prevent puberty by keeping children away from the opposite sex (or, in the case of early drilling of math facts, like telling a girl why boys are so awesome is going to do absolutely nothing for her hormones at the age of eight--but wait a couple years and suddenly she gets it).

 

It's why the Catholic Church said the age of reason was seven (so you could get confirmed understand communion), why the Muslims believe children under seven are incapable of real sin, why around the world nobody starts school before five and why the average age at the beginning is six (so, turning seven during that year)*:

 

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.AGES

 

If abstract reasoning were only used for school-related tasks, I'm sure redshirting would have an effect, just like keeping a child in a carseat all the time would delay walking (and make for a flat head). But abstract reasoning is used by almost everyone every day on regular tasks from playing house to building with blocks. You'd have to prevent the child from interacting with others and the external world (a mental version of the carseat's harness) to keep that from developing. Time is another big thing that happens at this age. They get it, so they use their abstract reasoning to deal with it. Same with puns.

 

So I don't think any change in the curriculum will delay its onset. Even people with no education at all can use abstract reasoning, although applying it to symbolic tasks educated people find routine might be a stretch.

 

Edits: My god I'm a rambler. Sorry.

[sunnyday]

There is a well-documented, well-known neurological change which happens around the ages of 6-7, that allows for abstract reasoning. It's not a question of training.

 

If it's well-documented, you're going to need to provide documentation. All I've got is Piaget, and the criticisms of Piaget are legion.

[SKL]

Actually there are many countries places where kids start academics at 4 and age 5 is certainly not an unusual age to be learning academics.  Whether it's the best age is a different question, of course.  (The best age depends on the individual child.)

 

I am well aware of the age of 7 being the "age of reason."  I just don't agree that 1st grade is supposed to require abstract reasoning.  A great deal of learning can and should take place before abstract reasoning is required.  Do you really need abstract reasoning to learn to read, count, and do basic simple math facts?  I think not.  But some of the stuff they are asking 1st / 2nd graders to figure out is ridiculous.  One would think we didn't have enough important factual information to teach young kids.

[Tsuga]

Where are children using abstract reasoning for academics at age for or five? They may be getting ready with simple facts, like letters and numbers, to familiarize them, but there is nowhere that I'm aware of (and I have worked with educators on three continents) that is taking children under the age of five and doing even simple addition with them.

 

"Do you really need abstract reasoning to learn to read, count, and do basic simple math facts?  I think not"

 

Counting, definitely not. Reading--decoding phase--no, I don't think so. But fluent reading requires that abstraction of the symbol be so automated that I believe it does require some abstract thinking. However, I should say that we might be thinking of abstract reasoning differently. I don't mean algebra. I'm not a follower of Piaget, or at least I thought I wasn't, but all the articles which have citations that explain how we know what kids are capable (again, on average) discuss his stages:

 

http://www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/stages.htm

 

Maybe I've internalized Piaget. I apologize. I will say that many of his theories about when kids can do stuff have been backed up by randomized experiments with children.

 

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/09/15/piagets-stages-of-cognitive-development-experiments-with-kids/

 

(The experiments are hilarious. Three-year-olds are ridiculously adorable.)

 

I child might be able to spit back math facts. But to really know what they're doing and apply them in any way to the world, they absolutely need some abstract thought. And in most schools nowadays, that is in fact a requirement.

 

"I just don't agree that 1st grade is supposed to require abstract reasoning."

Well, most kids turn seven that year, even if not redshirted. I think a child should be able to use the skills I'm talking about here by first or second grade.

[Spy Car]

I just don't accept the premise that young children are incapable of reasoning, when it is in direct contradiction to what one witnesses in real life.

 

Children (even infants) are born problem solvers. One of the great delights of life is to watch little minds whirl what they try to figure out how to get what they want.

 

Pedagological theories than deny children's rationality are dangerous (at worst) and limiting (at best). Are young children different than adults? Yes. Do the means used to cultivate understanding and reason with young children sometimes need to be different than with adults or older children? For sure.

 

But given up on the idea that young children are natural problem solvers, who can reason (and reason quite well) can cause people to throw out the most creative and inspiring means of teaching children, in favor of stupid means. And that is a shame.

 

This is not to say young children have fully formed senses of morality, or ethics. But they can think. They can appreciate the meaning of symbols. They can see "cause and effect."

 

Our job is not to force children prematurely into "thinking like adults" but to augment their real-life experiences (and the problem-solving that comes with play) with appropriate learning challenges that capitalize on play, fun, discovery, natural curiosity, and the cultivation of *thinking*.

 

Bill

[Tsuga]

Nobody is saying young children can't reason. Piaget was a big proponent of children's ability to learn and of their independent intellectual lives.

 

What the child development model suggests (and what experiments have proven) is that abstract reasoning is something that the vast majority of the population just doesn't get until they are about six or so, and then even higher reasoning is not possible until around 11-12 (puberty).

 

But there is also a reason that in the Well-Trained Mind books, their pre-school curriculum is very much "play, imagine, experiment, read to". They acknowledge that kids at that age are just extremely concrete. Anyone who's tried to reason a four-year-old out of a tantrum knows how utterly frustrating it can be.

 

This isn't to say they can't think. They can think! They can think up very complex stories and use logic. They count, they memorize poems, they can even add on their fingers.

 

They can understand specific causes and effects, but they don't generalize. This is why you can't just SAY to a four-year-old, "If you pull the cat's tail, we will leave." The child must have a specific experience of pulling the tail, and leaving as a punishment. Otherwise it takes forever for them to put all that stuff together. Getting kids that age to respond to act-specific consequences is closer to dog training than it is to a logic course. You can talk your head off but they don't get it. They need to see it happen. Some kids can see it happen to other kids and that's concrete enough for them. Yet other children have to experience that cause and effect to really understand that "inappropriate action -> leaving situation". And they still often will not generalize! For example, we have always left a situation when my child acted out. And every. single. time. she was surprised, up to last year or so. She just did not extrapolate this to be a general rule. Every situation was a different, concrete experience.

 

Yes, her brain operated on cause-effect principles, but only in a rather concrete way.

 

I think, Bill, what you may be talking about when you mention "thinking like adults" is in fact the stage that is described in theory as "formal operational". Teenagers: they could predict the consequences of their actions if they had the will to do so. :) Three-year-olds are also like this: they have far too many skills than their judgment warrants, heh. For some reason evolution decided they should practice their powers before they understood the extent of them...

 

I will say that my younger child is precocious and for every stage, she's been much better at abstraction than her older sibling. However, she still hits that developmental wall.

 

You can try some of the experiments on your own kids. I did the marshmallow one on both of my kids. The older one was way, way, WAY better than the little one for her age, but they both fell within the range of normal. I also did the cookie breaking trick they showed in these videos. My kids were both way better than average but still normal. The pouring it into another cup one had my older one totally fooled (taller=more liquid) and the little one looked at me like I did sorcery. It was freaking hilarious. You could see in her eyes... "It's the same liquid... but now it's more... but she didn't add any... wat."

 

Since then I have done the water-pouring trick for other pre-schoolers and I've realized I have a really great trick on my hands. MAGIC! It turns out that at any age you can exploit known gaps in human knowledge to entertain them to no end.

[Spy Car]

I'm not sure I understand your point Binip. I'll grant you that most children will fall for tricks that defy their sence of reason or that fall into the category of optical illusion, but many adults can be fooled by these sort of devices too.

 

Against this look at a four year old child that can't yet read but can navigate comlex computer menus to get to the game they want to play, or that can do the same with an iPad, and know the TV remote fictions better than the parent do, and the idea that children can't understand symbols and cause and effect vanishes.

 

Is it good to capitalize on concrete learning as a way to promote understanding with young children? Sure. It is a good idea and I'm all in favor of that sort of learning (which aims to teach deelply and for understanding). What I'm against is the idea that children can't think (beyond low-level recall) so we won't pursue educational means that require thinking until they are 7, or 9, or 11. That is unwise.

 

Bill

[SKL]

Yeah, I think we are not using the word "abstract reasoning" with the same meaning.

 

Abstract thinking is a continuum which begins before the baby can talk.  So if we're going to argue about when it hits a certain threshold, we probably need to define that threshold.  Or maybe we have defined it, and we disagree on whether it's normal for kids to reach that threshold by the legal age for 1st grade entry.

 

I don't get the burning need to teach complex abstract stuff in 1st grade.  Why not factual information like geography, history, spelling, basic math (involving 1 or maybe 2 simple operations / observations), basic grammar, strengthening reading skills, vocabulary, ... why is it that the kids in my daughters' 2nd grade class are having trouble with basic math facts such as 6+5?  Because in 1st grade they were wasting time on stuff that didn't make any sense to most of them, so they ended up not learning much of anything.  They would have been better off with more recess time.

 

Well, actually, part of the problem is the lack of differentiation in 1st grade (at least where my kids go to school).  There were kids who were ready for the "hard stuff" but it was wrong to drag the whole class along.  The majority would have benefited more from getting a more solid foundation in the basics.

[SKL]

And Piaget is nothing new to me.  We were required to learn about his theories in College Psychology 101 (when I was 16 - eek, too young to grasp college subjects!) and I never was a fan.  In those days I was an education student and they were teaching that normal kids don't have the ability to learn how to read until age 7.  They taught that the way to determine reading readiness is to ask them to draw a picture and if they don't line everything up on a flat line at the bottom of the page, they aren't ready to read.  Personally I think a lot of damage was done by changing the curriculum to accommodate these ridiculous ideas (my personal experience debunked them thoroughly).  And now the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction IMO.

 

I still fail to understand why a bright, normal 5yo should be denied an education because the school wants to teach KG only to 6yos and 1st grad to 7yos etc.  There ought to be some sort of law against this.  You're required to provide assisted access ti kids with all sorts of handicaps, but a normally developing child isn't entitled to an age-appropriate education?

[sunnyday]

Maybe I've internalized Piaget. I apologize. I will say that many of his theories about when kids can do stuff have been backed up by randomized experiments with children.

 

Yes, I think you have. No real criticism here; when I first read the WTM and realized it correlated back to psych 100 I was totally impressed! But then I got to know some more kids, including my own, and realized that a stage theory of any kind simply does not adequately explain cognitive development in the real world. FWIW, many more of his theories have been debunked by rigorous studies (vs. the observations of his own kids on which I hear he based his understanding.)

 

I do think there is a growth and development in advanced reasoning, along with ethics and position-taking, and I do think that on the most common trajectory it tends to hit a peak momentum at around this 6.5-7 age. But I don't think it's quite as black and white as you're making it, and I think the range of normal is way, way wider than you or Piaget make it sound. You can say "most kids take a first step at age 1", but it paints a completely different picture than "kids can walk at 9 months or 16 months or anywhere in between and still be *totally* normal, not advanced and not behind, but in the normal range and right on target for that specific child." So likewise, most kids can read and do mental math most readily right around 6.5 or 7. But for some it's as early as 3 or 4 and for some it's as late as 8 or 9, and it's still basically normal.

 

I think the take-away is not that we need kids to be older before they attempt kindergarten, nor that kindergarten work absolutely must be strictly concrete. Rather, I think we/teachers need to accept that there are going to be some kids in kindergarten that can make those leaps and have that internal reasoning, and there will be some kids that can't and don't. And that's OK. And there are so many more aspects of the child that could use some educational attention, that honestly worrying about whether age makes the difference between a child who can or can't comfortably complete a worksheet about the word "white" feels like missing the mark completely.

[Tsuga]

Against this look at a four year old child that can't yet read but can navigate comlex computer menus to get to the game they want to play, or that can do the same with an iPad, and know the TV remote fictions better than the parent do, and the idea that children can't understand symbols and cause and effect vanishes.

 

I don't think you are using "cause and effect" in the same way I am. My kids can't use the iPad or TV remote any better than I can. Maybe they're stupid. I have no idea. I think a dog can be trained to use an iPad, given the right stimuli. That's not understanding "cause and effect".

 

 

I don't think it's quite as black and white as you're making it,

 

I don't think I have painted a black and white picture. Instead I've responded to repeated explanations that "not 100% of kids fit into that" with "there is a bell curve, of course it's not the same day/month for 100% of kids" only to hear about more supposed "exceptions."

 

You can bring up literally 7,000,000 exceptional children who are a one in one thousand exception and I'll say, "Yep. That sounds about right." Because that is .1% of the population.

 

What I'm talking about is a stage where something happens, and that it's centered around 6-7. And I maintain that's true.

 

Whether one child doesn't click until nine and another special child matures at the age of four, is not the point.

 

The point is that there are certain things, conceptually speaking, that some kids can't do, and the curriculum in public schools should be structured in such a way that it doesn't ask the majority of kids to do something they aren't ready for cognitively, and for which they cannot be prepared, due to it being a question of physical brain maturity.

 

It should go without saying that average is average, the mode is the mode, and that there are both ends of the bell curve. But I've typed that out repeatedly, to no avail. No individual exception will convince me that the data for a large population is wrong because social science allows from deviations from the norm. That's within the spirit of the theory here.

 

Only an idiot would say, "No child can reason beyond the most simple parroting until the age of six."

 

That's not what I've said here at all, and I'd appreciate a bit more nuanced reading of what I'm saying.

 

I'm not saying your kids don't exist, I'm saying they don't plot right down the center of the bell curve according to the studies in this area.