Here is how I am teaching the material in WWS1-3. What are you doing?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Actually, it was often nonfiction that she requested I order. I had ordered mostly fiction at first.

[JadeOrchidSong]

How long did WWS 1 Week 29 take your dc?

Ds10 has been taking one day for each step in each day for Week 29. It is painfully slow, but he can't handle more than that. Lots of it are new things for him. It might take us three weeks to get it done.

[lewelma]

How long did WWS 1 Week 29 take your dc?

Ds10 has been taking one day for each step in each day for Week 29. It is painfully slow, but he can't handle more than that. Lots of it are new things for him. It might take us three weeks to get it done.

I don't remember, but it does not surprise me.  WWS1 gets really hard at the end, and most people agree that the work is more suited to 6th grade.  I would simply take as long as is required, and not worry about it.

[lewelma]

I spent 30 minutes today reviewing Description of a Person with ds(13) as suggested in Week 2 of WWS3.  I found that now that my son is older, and has already seen this material before, we were able to go a bit more in depth.  We read back over week 16 in WWS1 and studied the Queen Elizabeth passage (p211).  WWS1 asks the student to figure out which aspect is described in each paragraph, I upped it a bit for this review and asked what the overall goal was for the description.  Clearly, it was to make her seem worthy of the thrown, but then we talked about how the biography was written in 1910 and back then 'worthy of the thrown' included things like small lips, tiny hands, thin figure, sweet singing voice, skill with the lute.  So we had a great time talking about how the description was a part of its era -- very very interesting. 

 

Next we attacked the Scrooge description (p 214).  I definitely had not noticed the lovely metaphor that was used throughout the passage.   DS very quickly identified that the goal of the description was to show Scrooge as a hard, unfeeling man and 'cold' was used as the overarching metaphor -- "The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose... made his thin lips blue.  ... A frosty rime was on his head.. He carried his own low temperature always about with him." It is not until Week 18 that the idea of using a metaphor to organize a description is studied, so we missed this the first time around.  DS was quite excited to identify this all on his own.

 

I am beginning to think that it would be well worth our time to spend 30 minutes per week reviewing passages from WWS1 and 2 that link to the current item under study. He definitely got more out of it a second time around, and it just did not take very long.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I spent 30 minutes today reviewing Description of a Person with ds(13) as suggested in Week 2 of WWS3.  I found that now that my son is older, and has already seen this material before, we were able to go a bit more in depth.  We read back over week 16 in WWS1 and studied the Queen Elizabeth passage (p211).  WWS1 asks the student to figure out which aspect is described in each paragraph, I upped it a bit for this review and asked what the overall goal was for the description.  Clearly, it was to make her seem worthy of the thrown, but then we talked about how the biography was written in 1910 and back then 'worthy of the thrown' included things like small lips, tiny hands, thin figure, sweet singing voice, skill with the lute.  So we had a great time talking about how the description was a part of its era -- very very interesting. 

 

Next we attacked the Scrooge description (p 214).  I definitely had not noticed the lovely metaphor that was used throughout the passage.   DS very quickly identified that the goal of the description was to show Scrooge as a hard, unfeeling man and 'cold' was used as the overarching metaphor -- "The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose... made his thin lips blue.  ... A frosty rime was on his head.. He carried his own low temperature always about with him." It is not until Week 18 that the idea of using a metaphor to organize a description is studied, so we missed this the first time around.  DS was quite excited to identify this all on his own.

 

I am beginning to think that it would be well worth our time to spend 30 minutes per week reviewing passages from WWS1 and 2 that link to the current item under study. He definitely got more out of it a second time around, and it just did not take very long.

 

that's a fascinating observation.  I've made a writing lesson plan for my dd7 that includes going through the Traits of Writing book along with Warriner's Models book in 5th grade, before starting WWS, and then integrating WWS in as we get to the specific types of compositions.  The idea is that after having a thorough presentation of the whole, including a focus on writing as a process and studying the great models in Warriner's, the "parts" in WWS will make a lot more sense.  That would also put her getting there in 6th.  I'm doing the plan with dd10 now, using Traits & Warriners, but had planned to skip over the WWS1 part at the end . . . Your comments almost tempt me to repeat some of the weeks with her.  Hmm.  She would balk at doing something that felt like going backwards . . . and she did a fine job the first time, just not as deep as she would now.  Maybe with her, I can just go straight into WWS2 and review WWS1 weeks just as needed.  More to think about.

 

We had our first lesson off this new plan yesterday, btw.  It went really well.  I did a LTOW Intro-style talk, eliciting from her all the "jobs" we have to do when we write, and organized it into the 3 canons, then told her about them.  Then we went through the steps of the writing process as laid out in Warriners.  Today we start working on the Ideas trait, and we'll use Warriner's model exercises in the midst of that as well.  It's really interesting to see how the 6 traits map on to the 3 Canons:  Trait 1 is basically Invention, then Trait 2 is Arrangements, and Traits 3-5 are Elocution.  That's what dd needs the most work on at this point, so I like that Traits will have us focus on that for a good long while.  

[lewelma]

I read the lesson with my son (we take turns reading different parts).  Then he does the assignment.  I go over it and give feedback.  That's basically it.  I have not been having him write down the concepts in a notebook.  He types the assignments. 

 

You have got to give more details than that!  :001_smile:

 

How old is your son and which level is he working on?

What traits does your son have which make the implementation of the program so straight forward? 

Do you just read the assignment with him or do you discuss it?

What kind of feedback do you give?

Does he need a big picture overview?  or is he happy to just let the program play out? 

 

Please share!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm not Wendy, but the program is straightforward for us as well. We may take longer than the time listed, but we follow the lessons step-by-step.

 

Maybe my dd doesn't need the big picture, or maybe she is getting it with MCT or elsewhere. :confused:  I honestly can't imagine doing all the extra work you are doing just to use the program.

 

I was actually relieved by Wendy's post

[Woodland Mist Academy]

How long did WWS 1 Week 29 take your dc?

Ds10 has been taking one day for each step in each day for Week 29. It is painfully slow, but he can't handle more than that. Lots of it are new things for him. It might take us three weeks to get it done.

 

Let's see. . . if I remember correctly it took her just short of forever. Seriously. It was the never-ending assignment. ;)

 

It was worth it, however. Remember to not rush and to enjoy the process. (I know that's hard on day 26 of a 4 day assignment. ;) )

[lewelma]

I'm not Wendy, but the program is straightforward for us as well. We may take longer than the time listed, but we follow the lessons step-by-step.

 

Maybe my dd doesn't need the big picture, or maybe she is getting it with MCT or elsewhere. :confused:  I honestly can't imagine doing all the extra work you are doing just to use the program.

 

I was actually relieved by Wendy's post

 

Oh, heavens.  I think there are lots of kids who can use it as written, but there are also lots that can't.  I just want to kick ideas around for how to teach the material if your kid just doesn't get it. 

 

What I would really like to know is what traits you dd has that makes the program so straightforward, because it certainly has not been for my older son.  He is a good writer, but perhaps not a natural writer.  He also wants to know *why* and *how*.  Why am I learning this?  How do all the pieces fit together?  Where is this program headed?  How does what I am learning connect to the writing I read?  Perhaps, your dd does not care about these questions?  They are all big picture questions, and WWS is definitely parts to whole.

 

I certainly do NOT want to scare people off of WWS by suggesting you need to do all this extra scaffolding and discussion that I have to do.  Clearly, it depends on the kid and his/her needs.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Oh, heavens.  I think there are lots of kids who can use it as written, but there are also lots that can't.  I just want to kick ideas around for how to teach the material if your kid just doesn't get it. 

 

What I would really like to know is what traits you dd has that makes the program so straightforward, because it certainly has not been for my older son.  He is a good writer, but perhaps not a natural writer.  He also wants to know *why* and *how*.  Why am I learning this?  How do all the pieces fit together?  Where is this program headed?  How does what I am learning connect to the writing I read?  Perhaps, your dd does not care about these questions?  They are all big picture questions, and WWS is definitely parts to whole.

 

I certainly do NOT want to scare people off of WWS by suggesting you need to do all this extra scaffolding and discussion that I have to do.  Clearly, it depends on the kid and his/her needs.

 

I wouldn't say my dd is a natural writer at all, although she adores writing and writes every day in her free time.

 

She wants to be a better writer and WWS is helping her with that process, so she doesn't seem to question it.

 

Beyond that she seems to enjoy the process of the program and the selections.

[lewelma]

 I honestly can't imagine doing all the extra work you are doing just to use the program.

 

I have him read it independently and then we discuss the material and assignment for 30 minutes on 2 separate days -- so an hour total each week.  If he has any other trouble, we talk about it in the car when driving to activities.  So, from my point of view, not a whole lot of extra work.  The review of WWS1 I just did with my older is a part of the assignment in WWS3.  

 

I am sure that I would have to do an equal amount of discussion with any program we use as my son just asks a LOT of questions.  In addition, he is asking a lot of rhetoric questions, so is basically learning high school material concurrently with middle school material -- just the way he is I guess.

 

I expect to do the same amount of work for my younger when he starts next week.

 

[JadeOrchidSong]

Let's see. . . if I remember correctly it took her just short of forever. Seriously. It was the never-ending assignment. ;)

 

It was worth it, however. Remember to not rush and to enjoy the process. (I know that's hard on day 26 of a 4 day assignment. ;) )

LOL:-)

 

Today he took less than half a step, which is 1/3 of a day's work.

[Chrysalis Academy]

See, I think my dd is a pretty natural writer, and she was certainly capable of doing WWS assignments as written, for the most part.  What I didn't see was any connection between what she was doing in WWS . . . and her brain.  She is such a big-picture, whole-to-parts thinker, that if she doesn't understand a big picture view of how it all fits together, and how what she's learning fits in, she tends to just do it by pattern matching, and then it just goes right out of her head.  This was the problem I saw with WWS.  She could do the assignments, but I didn't get the sense that she was understanding how the parts fit together and what the goal or end product was without a ton of scaffolding.  

 

When i read about how SaDonna's daughter can really see how the parts fit together, and can choose topoi for her school writing assignments, I'm jealous! My dd didn't get that level of transferrable skill/knowledge from WWS.  I don't know if it's because of how her brain works, or how it's presented, or that I didn't do enough scaffolding, or what, but it has what has given me pause about continuing with the program.  So I get what Ruth is saying here.

[lewelma]

 although she adores writing and writes every day in her free time.

 

:huh: :rolleyes: ;) :)

 

I just couldn't find the right face!  My son just took 7 months off of formal writing because he was studying for the NZ math olympiad.  During that time, he wrote a 2 paragraph description. It was really good, but that was it.  Not a single speck of any other writing.  Not even a list.

 

Clearly, we are working with 2 different students!

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

See, I think my dd is a pretty natural writer, and she was certainly capable of doing WWS assignments as written, for the most part.  What I didn't see was any connection between what she was doing in WWS . . . and her brain.  She is such a big-picture, whole-to-parts thinker, that if she doesn't understand a big picture view of how it all fits together, and how what she's learning fits in, she tends to just do it by pattern matching, and then it just goes right out of her head.  This was the problem I saw with WWS.  She could do the assignments, but I didn't get the sense that she was understanding how the parts fit together and what the goal or end product was without a ton of scaffolding.  

 

When i read about how SaDonna's daughter can really see how the parts fit together, and can choose topoi for her school writing assignments, I'm jealous! My dd didn't get that level of transferrable skill/knowledge from WWS.  I don't know if it's because of how her brain works, or how it's presented, or that I didn't do enough scaffolding, or what, but it has what has given me pause about continuing with the program.  So I get what Ruth is saying here.

 

I thought I was understanding what she is saying, too. I was trying to say what you are saying--I think. :confused1:  

 

My reaction would be more like yours. It would give me pause to continue with the program if I thought connections weren't happening. That's what I meant by I can't imagine doing all the extra work just to use the program. If my dd didn't like the selections and/or I felt connections weren't happening, I would probably consider using something else or make my own plan. There would need to be a pretty strong case for me to continue using a program that needed that much extra work. There comes a point when there is so much extra work that the program isn't worth the time/money. That's a blurry line of course. We were there at one point ourselves, but it's not an issue at the moment.

 

Although reading these posts I'm beginning to wonder if my dd is missing some deeper meaning, and I'm just too clueless to notice.  :tongue_smilie:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

:huh: :rolleyes: ;) :)

 

I just couldn't find the right face!  My son just took 7 months off of formal writing because he was studying for the NZ math olympiad.  During that time, he wrote a 2 paragraph description. It was really good, but that was it.  Not a single speck of any other writing.  Not even a list.

 

Clearly, we are working with 2 different students!

 

LOL! But I've read what he's written in the past and it is really good, just like you said. Quality isn't always connected to quantity. ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have him read it independently and then we discuss the material and assignment for 30 minutes on 2 separate days -- so an hour total each week.  If he has any other trouble, we talk about it in the car when driving to activities.  So, from my point of view, not a whole lot of extra work.  The review of WWS1 I just did with my older is a part of the assignment in WWS3.  

 

I am sure that I would have to do an equal amount of discussion with any program we use as my son just asks a LOT of questions.  In addition, he is asking a lot of rhetoric questions, so is basically learning high school material concurrently with middle school material -- just the way he is I guess.

 

I expect to do the same amount of work for my younger when he starts next week.

 

I guess I was referring to having him read all the fiction books before the assignments and doing extra research etc. Don't get me wrong, we spend hourglasses full of time on WWS, just in a different way. ;)

 

Maybe I've gotten the wrong impression of what you are doing.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 He also wants to know *why* and *how*.  Why am I learning this?  How do all the pieces fit together?  Where is this program headed?  How does what I am learning connect to the writing I read?  Perhaps, your dd does not care about these questions?  They are all big picture questions, and WWS is definitely parts to whole.

 

Maybe that's it. We are using many other resources for the big picture, so I don't expect that from WWS. We use WWS for the details.

 

It's certainly not that she doesn't care.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I thought I was understanding what she is saying, too. I was trying to say what you are saying--I think. :confused1:  

 

My reaction would be more like yours. It would give me pause to continue with the program if I thought connections weren't happening. That's what I meant by I can't imagine doing all the extra work just to use the program. If my dd didn't like the selections and/or I felt connections weren't happening, I would probably consider using something else or make my own plan. There would need to be a pretty strong case for me to continue using a program that needed that much extra work. There comes a point when there is so much extra work that the program isn't worth the time/money. That's a blurry line of course. We were there at one point ourselves, but it's not an issue at the moment.

 

Although reading these posts I'm beginning to wonder if my dd is missing some deeper meaning, and I'm just too clueless to notice.  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I woke up thinking about this this morning . . . surprise surprise!  :tongue_smilie:

 

I think what i was really trying to say was that I think my dd can do the things in WWS, but not because of WWS, KWIM?  I know that I approach writing more intuitively, and I tend to teach it that way, too.  So, when she wrote the Mary Cassatt paper, for sure it was clear that she needed to incorporate expository paragraphs explaining Impressionism, chronological paragraphs about Mary's life, descriptive paragraphs about her work . . . and she just did it, when and where it was needed.  Or I might suggest, "Don't you think you need to explain Impressionism here? Your readers might not know what it is, so they might not understand your comparison." And she'd go ahead and add that in.  And the end result was great.

 

But, it didn't look ANYTHING like the process described for the final project in WWS!  Well, that's not true - she read, took notes, outlined, drafted, revised and edited.  But she did not choose specific topoi and put them together.  I've never written like that either.  Do people acutally write like that IRL? I mean, professional nonfiction writers?  I'm curious.  Because I wonder, is how we do it (more intuitively, more just put in what you need to get the job done) ok, or are we missing something by not explicitly focusing on the pieces and that we are putting pieces together?

 

I swear, I've never been so wishy washy about any curriculum - ok, maybe AoPS PreA, but that's it!  I convince myself that it's just a bad fit style-wise, but then I read Ruth's posts, or SaDonna's posts, or others, and I think, "Geez, I must be missing something! Or not doing it right!"  Other people seem to be able to look at it, decide it's not a fit, and move on . . . why does it bring out every bit of my OCD tendencies?  WHYYYYY?????   :toetap05:  :tongue_smilie:  :ohmy:  ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I woke up thinking about this this morning . . . surprise surprise!  :tongue_smilie:

 

:laugh:  Well at least you slept! I was up half the night thinking about it, which is decidedly against my current sleep goals! :sneaky2: ;)

 

Note to self: Add to sleep plan--No writing threads after 7pm.

[Penguin]

I am trying to figure out the best way to make the hard work that DS put into WWS1 transferable.  Unfortunately, I am not so sure at the moment that he would actually draw from what he has learned in order to write the next thing - unless the next thing came directly from WWS2.

 

Last night, I printed out all of his WWS1 assignments (except for the outlines) and put them in a proclick booklet.  Each assignment has a sticky note on it with the intent of the assignment and the place that it could be found in the WWS1 student book.  For example, the piece about Johannes Kepler has a sticky that says "Chronological Narrative about a Scientific Discovery  W7D4." (W7D4 means Week7Day4 - DS will know what that means).

 

Behind the assignments are the topoi pages that he made. 

 

I hope that this streamlined booklet will get some use when we are NOT using WWS!!

 

 

As an aside, I finally read through the sample lessons of WWS2.  I was happy to see that the student is now being told that WWS uses the Turabian style guide.  WWS1 was obviously not sticking to MLA, even though the instructor guide indicated that my student would be taught using MLA.  I probably let this bother me waaayyy more than I should have, but so it goes...

 

The release date on WWS2 is Oct 31 on Amazon.uk , so we have some time to work on transferable skills right now, LOL.  I want to have the whole book in hand before deciding how to use it. 

[Mrs Twain]

I woke up thinking about this this morning . . . surprise surprise!  :tongue_smilie:

 

I think what i was really trying to say was that I think my dd can do the things in WWS, but not because of WWS, KWIM?  I know that I approach writing more intuitively, and I tend to teach it that way, too.  So, when she wrote the Mary Cassatt paper, for sure it was clear that she needed to incorporate expository paragraphs explaining Impressionism, chronological paragraphs about Mary's life, descriptive paragraphs about her work . . . and she just did it, when and where it was needed.  Or I might suggest, "Don't you think you need to explain Impressionism here? Your readers might not know what it is, so they might not understand your comparison." And she'd go ahead and add that in.  And the end result was great.

 

But, it didn't look ANYTHING like the process described for the final project in WWS!  Well, that's not true - she read, took notes, outlined, drafted, revised and edited.  But she did not choose specific topoi and put them together.  I've never written like that either.  Do people acutally write like that IRL? I mean, professional nonfiction writers?  I'm curious.  Because I wonder, is how we do it (more intuitively, more just put in what you need to get the job done) ok, or are we missing something by not explicitly focusing on the pieces and that we are putting pieces together?

 

I swear, I've never been so wishy washy about any curriculum - ok, maybe AoPS PreA, but that's it!  I convince myself that it's just a bad fit style-wise, but then I read Ruth's posts, or SaDonna's posts, or others, and I think, "Geez, I must be missing something! Or not doing it right!"  Other people seem to be able to look at it, decide it's not a fit, and move on . . . why does it bring out every bit of my OCD tendencies?  WHYYYYY?????   :toetap05:  :tongue_smilie:  :ohmy:  ;)

 

You just described my reasons for using School Composition for Use in Higher Grammar Classes with my 5th grader.  My goals for writing this year include working on narrative and descriptive compositions, which School Composition covers in a simple and straightforward manner.  We are enjoying the excellent models written by classic writers of the 1800's which seem well chosen for the targeted age group.

 

In addition I am using IEW for style, outlining, and note-taking/research goals.

 

My plan for 7th and 8th is to do the Lost Tools of Writing to learn essays.

 

I had WWS on my list to buy at a homeschool convention, but the first time I paged through it, I thought it could never work for us.  A while later I changed my mind and ordered it online, but then I returned it for the same reason.  Like you, Rose, I have no idea what I may be missing in WWS.  If someone could point that out, I would be interested to know.

[8filltheheart]

Nm

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 Like you, Rose, I have no idea what I may be missing in WWS.  If someone could point that out, I would be interested to know.

 

There are just too many unknowns to answer that, aren't there?

 

It might be helpful (or dreadful, depending on one's personality) to remember you will always be missing something. Always.

[Chrysalis Academy]

There are just too many unknowns to answer that, aren't there?

 

It might be helpful (or dreadful, depending on one's personality) to remember you will always be missing something. Always.

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :ohmy:

 

:smilielol5:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:

[lewelma]

It would give me pause to continue with the program if I thought connections weren't happening. That's what I meant by I can't imagine doing all the extra work just to use the program. If my dd didn't like the selections and/or I felt connections weren't happening, I would probably consider using something else or make my own plan. There would need to be a pretty strong case for me to continue using a program that needed that much extra work. There comes a point when there is so much extra work that the program isn't worth the time/money.

 

For whatever reason, my son is willing to work harder for SWB than for any other program or even for me.  There is some sort of connection with her.  I've told him that she is a literature professor at William and Mary, a very good university, and that WWS represents what *she* thinks a kid of his age can do.  I think his competitive spirit comes out when he finds something hard -- he feels he must rise to the occasion or be found lacking.  I am working to make WWS work for him, because it *does* work for him and has absolutely brought him up to the next level.  So I have to teach him the big picture directly and help him make connections that he cannot make on his own.  So what?  This takes 1 hour of planning for me on the weekend and 1 hour of work with him every week.  I just don't see how any other program would be any different.  For *this* child WWS is definitely worth fighting for!

 

I guess I was referring to having him read all the fiction books before the assignments and doing extra research etc. Don't get me wrong, we spend hourglasses full of time on WWS, just in a different way. ;)

 

Maybe I've gotten the wrong impression of what you are doing.

 

Definitely the wrong impression.  :001_smile:   He does not read any of the fiction books.  For all nonfiction assignments, I have him read a wikipedia page or something else online to give him a bigger understanding of the topic he is going to write on.  If he hates a topic, we switch it for something else, which might require him to find some articles on the internet to pull quotes from. 

 

As for the research he is doing right now (which I described in a pp), WWS3 assigns a 4 page typed research paper in week 4 and 5, so this is what he is working on.  I'm just expecting that he will need the full 2 weeks to take the notes, write the paper, edit, and add references.  So I suggested to him that he do all the reading in the weeks leading up to the assignment.  Part of what I use WWS for is to keep him to a schedule, so I don't want him to ever think (now that he is 13) that he can take extra weeks to get it done.  NO. He needs to plan ahead.

 

Hope that clarifies things!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

 

Definitely the wrong impression.  :001_smile:   He does not read any of the fiction books.

 

 

. . . To achieve this knowledge, I have, just like you, had my kids read the fiction literature that will be in the program, but I have not purchased/google-booked/Gutenberged the nonfiction books for them to read completely.  Are you doing this?

 

Thanks!

 

Ruth in NZ

I guess I don't understand this. When you asked about the nonfiction books, I got the impression you had him read all the fiction, but not non-fiction. Obviously I misunderstood something, and I am still misunderstanding. lol

[Woodland Mist Academy]

BTW, I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. I was merely musing that for some people (not anyone in particular) it might be better to use something else. I would hate for someone to :banghead:  thinking it was due to a personal fault or a faulty kid that the program wasn't as successful as was hoped.

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

BTW, I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. I was merely musing that for some people (not anyone in particular) it might be better to use something else. I would hate for someone to :banghead:  thinking it was due to a personal fault or a faulty kid that the program wasn't as successful as was hoped.

 

Who??? Who would think such a thing???   :biggrinjester:   :seeya:  :D  ;)

[lewelma]

I guess I don't understand this. When you asked about the nonfiction books, I got the impression you had him read all the fiction, but not non-fiction. Obviously I misunderstood something, and I am still misunderstanding. lol

I have no idea why I wrote that.  :huh:  :confused1:  My kids like to have read the literature because it is cool to then see it in the program, but I definitely don't have them read Count of Monte Cristo because SWB pulled a passage from it for the purpose of summarizing (which she did in WWS3).   That would take a long time!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Who??? Who would think such a thing???   :biggrinjester:   :seeya:  :D  ;)

 

I was soooo close to writing-- like Rose, for instance.... LOL

 

:smilielol5: :smilielol5:

[aprilleigh]

We're still in WWE, but I can't wait to start WWS with DS. I might have to pick up the first year early so I'll have plenty of time to incorporate some of the ideas everyone has mentioned. So far it sounds like a solid program that just needs to be adjusted for the abilities of different students. I agree that SWBs kids are probably able to do this independently because they've absorbed the writing techniques just from watching her do it so often. My son is the same way with science - he really has the thought process down, which is something I can't even say of most of my college students.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have no idea why I wrote that.  :huh:  :confused1:  My kids like to have read the literature because it is cool to then see it in the program, but I definitely don't have them read Count of Monte Cristo because SWB pulled a passage from it for the purpose of summarizing (which she did in WWS3).   That would take a long time!

 

Exactly! Hope that sheds light on my concern. ;)

[lewelma]

BTW, I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. I was merely musing that for some people (not anyone in particular) it might be better to use something else. I would hate for someone to :banghead:  thinking it was due to a personal fault or a faulty kid that the program wasn't as successful as was hoped.

 

As for using something else, these are the books and curricula that I own and have read!!!!

 

Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it)

DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says)

They Say, I Say: Moves that Matter in Academic Writing

Horner's Rhetoric in the classical tradition

Webster's Student Writing Handbook

Lively Art of Writing

Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels)

Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2)

Classical Composition's Fable

Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, Herodotus

MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels

Writing with Skill (WWS levels 1, 2, 3)

Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3)

IEW's Structure and Style

Maxwell's School Composition (this is old, but good!)

 

 

If there was something else that would work, I would have found it by now!  At some point I truly believe that you must just settle down and get the job done.  There is no perfect curriculum for your child unless you design/write it yourself like 8filltheheart has.  I don't have either the time or skill to do that!

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

As for using something else, these are the books and curricula that I own and have read!!!!

 

Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it)

DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says)

They Say, I Say: Moves that Matter in Academic Writing

Horner's Rhetoric in the classical tradition

Webster's Student Writing Handbook

Lively Art of Writing

Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels)

Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2)

Classical Composition's Fable

Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, Herodotus

MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels

Writing with Skill (WWS levels 1, 2, 3)

Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3)

IEW's Structure and Style

School Composition and the next one up (these are old but good!)

 

 

If there was something else that would work, I would have found it by now!  At some point I truly believe that you must just settle down and get the job done.  There is no perfect curriculum for your child unless you design/write it yourself like 8filltheheart has.  I don't have either the time or skill to do that!

 

:huh: :confused:

 

 

[lewelma]

:huh: :confused:

 

 

 

I know.  Luckily, the more expensive of these I got from the home school library.  I made a major effort for 2 full years to really get my head around writing and to determine what was expected of me as the teacher and for my student to get him up to a university level.  My older boy *needs* to be taught explicitly; he is not just going to learn to write by mucking around (he is mathy type!) Teaching writing in an explicit manner takes a LOT of knowledge.  These books and curricula gave me that knowledge.

 

Not sure if you have seen my thread: My evaluation of numerous writing curricula: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/348864-my-evaluation-of-numerous-writing-curricula/

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I know.  Luckily, the more expensive of these I got from the home school library.  I made a major effort for 2 full years to really get my head around writing and to determine what was expected of me as the teacher and for my student to get him up to a university level.  My older boy *needs* to be taught explicitly; he is not just going to learn to write by mucking around (he is mathy type!) Teaching writing in an explicit manner takes a LOT of knowledge.  These books and curricula gave me that knowledge.

 

Not sure if you have seen my thread: My evaluation of numerous writing curricula: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/348864-my-evaluation-of-numerous-writing-curricula/

 

No, actually I wasn't commenting on all the books. I was just uncertain of what is happening. I am not saying you should find something else.

 

Sorry for the confusion and for derailing the thread.

 

Carry on, I'll not comment anymore. :)

[lewelma]

 I have no idea what I may be missing in WWS.  If someone could point that out, I would be interested to know.

 

I can answer this question for you, but I have to run to swimming.  Will try to get to it tonight. 

[lewelma]

No, actually I wasn't commenting on all the books. I was just uncertain of what is happening. I am not saying you should find something else.

 

Sorry for the confusion and for derailing the thread.

 

Carry on, I'll not comment anymore. :)

 

I'm not cross.  I find your questions very helpful.  Off to swimming.....

[Kendall]

Is there a way to download School Composition by Maxwell?  I can read it online through google books, but I would love to have a pdf but I can't find the place to download it.  

 

I would love to join this conversation, and may join it late when I get caught up on a few things.  I am using WWS 1 with a 6th and 8th grader, I beta tested WWS 2 last year with a 9th grader who hadn't done WWS 1, and we are now beta testing WWS 3.  

 

I will say quickly that I like that in WWS 2 she tells what could be skipped(that information is in the print version;it wasn't in the beta).  It gave me the confidence to try to combine some weeks of WWS 3.

 

 

[Mrs Twain]

Is there a way to download School Composition by Maxwell?  I can read it online through google books, but I would love to have a pdf but I can't find the place to download it.  

 

I would love to join this conversation, and may join it late when I get caught up on a few things.  I am using WWS 1 with a 6th and 8th grader, I beta tested WWS 2 last year with a 9th grader who hadn't done WWS 1, and we are now beta testing WWS 3.  

 

I will say quickly that I like that in WWS 2 she tells what could be skipped(that information is in the print version;it wasn't in the beta).  It gave me the confidence to try to combine some weeks of WWS 3.

 

At Google Books, place your cursor over the READ EBOOK red box.  One of the choices you should see is the download PDF.  If I remember correctly, that is how I downloaded the PDF:

http://books.google.com/books/about/School_Composition.html?id=E_8AAAAAYAAJ

 

Instead of printing it and having it bound, I bought a printed copy from Amazon because it ended up being cheaper.

[Alte Veste Academy]

What I would really like to know is what traits you dd has that makes the program so straightforward, because it certainly has not been for my older son. He is a good writer, but perhaps not a natural writer. He also wants to know *why* and *how*. Why am I learning this? How do all the pieces fit together? Where is this program headed? How does what I am learning connect to the writing I read? Perhaps, your dd does not care about these questions? They are all big picture questions, and WWS is definitely parts to whole.

 

I certainly do NOT want to scare people off of WWS by suggesting you need to do all this extra scaffolding and discussion that I have to do. Clearly, it depends on the kid and his/her needs.

I think it also depends on what writing program is used prior and/or concurrently and whether kids come to WWS with the Big Picture already in mind. My DS10 would also want (no, need!) to know the how and why; he would be resistant without it, and he is not a resistant writer at all. He just flat out does not assimilate information as well if he doesn't know where to file that information. I have probably read every WWS thread on these boards and nothing scares me off more than reading over and over how parts-to-whole it is. Because frankly? With parts-to-whole, I would be doing the lion's share of the work to make those connections for him. If there is anything I know for sure about this boy, it's that connections he makes himself are done and DONE. It is in there and it is not going to leak out. ;) Connections I have to repeatedly point out to him? Well, let's just say that my use of the phrase "repeatedly point out" gives you a glimpse of his retention rate with that kind of instruction. LOL

 

Anyway, I appreciate these threads. They are very informative. I don't think that telling people how you are scaffolding WWS to make it work for you is going to scare people off of it so much as it will helpfully inform them that it may not be the right program for their particular situation. That's OK! And, of course, as you say, it may help people realize that the program will work for them.

 

My reaction would be more like yours. It would give me pause to continue with the program if I thought connections weren't happening. That's what I meant by I can't imagine doing all the extra work just to use the program. If my dd didn't like the selections and/or I felt connections weren't happening, I would probably consider using something else or make my own plan. There would need to be a pretty strong case for me to continue using a program that needed that much extra work. There comes a point when there is so much extra work that the program isn't worth the time/money. That's a blurry line of course. We were there at one point ourselves, but it's not an issue at the moment.

 

Although reading these posts I'm beginning to wonder if my dd is missing some deeper meaning, and I'm just too clueless to notice. :tongue_smilie:

Maybe that's it. We are using many other resources for the big picture, so I don't expect that from WWS. We use WWS for the details.

 

It's certainly not that she doesn't care.

Getting the big picture from other resources is my guess. As someone whose kids need the big picture, I have to decide if WWS is a tool I can pull into our writing workshop without a Herculean effort on my part (because I'm just not up to that :tongue_smilie:). So far, teaching writing has always felt easy and natural, and yet my kids' writing is still coming right along, so I am not inclined to introduce something that will make things needlessly frustrating. I'm all about moving forward and improving skill, but I wonder if other tried-and-true programs are just as likely to get us to where I would like to go.

 

(I am sorry that I have not started a writing workshop thread. The guilt eats at me. Seriously. How sad is that?! :lol: I have barely been on the past few weeks. I collapse into a heap at night and read a little, then a bit more with my morning coffee. I have been crazy busy lately...a new era with my bunch! I have also been expectantly waiting for a couple of mini-lesson books through ILL and they are finally arriving...needed to know whether or not I would have something to recommend for older kids. LOL I will try to reflect and write soon.)

[Chrysalis Academy]

We have very similar 10 year olds, Kristina, so I am all ears about whatever you discover!

[lewelma]

I would love to join this conversation, and may join it late when I get caught up on a few things.  I am using WWS 1 with a 6th and 8th grader, I beta tested WWS 2 last year with a 9th grader who hadn't done WWS 1, and we are now beta testing WWS 3.  

 

I will say quickly that I like that in WWS 2 she tells what could be skipped(that information is in the print version;it wasn't in the beta).  It gave me the confidence to try to combine some weeks of WWS 3.

 

Kendall, I would love to hear your thoughts.  WWS2 has just come out, so there are only a few of us that have used more than WWS1.  And personally, I have found WWS1 the most difficult to use of the 3.  Perhaps it was the transition to academic writing, perhaps SWB is better at teaching older kids, perhaps the approach was not great for my boy, but for whatever reason WWS2 was much more straightforward than WWS1, and WWS3 is a breeze in comparison.

[lewelma]

I have no idea what I may be missing in WWS.  If someone could point that out, I would be interested to know.

 

I assume that SWB decided to undertake this enormous project (and it IS enormous) because she could not find other materials that taught writing in a way that supports the development of an excellent writer.  And after all the books and curricula that I have looked at, I think that WWS is unique.

 

Let me define "excellent" writer so we are on the same page.  WWS is not training a student in timed essays (speed writing), nor is it training a student in answering short essay questions on tests (although both of these skills might be transferable skills from WWS depending on the student).  I believe she is training a student to one day be able to analyse and write long papers about complex situations.  To join the Great Conversation.  To be able to write at an undergraduate level.  Clearly there are many paths to this goal. IMHO SWB's ultimate goal is not high school essay writing.  There are many other curricula that cover this need (IEW's elegant essay comes to mind).

 

Let me also say that I am trying to have a postive thread about WWS, so if you want to discuss differences between programs, let's start a new thread.  But the question was what would you be missing if you don't use WWS, or stated a different way, what should you make sure to cover if you are not using WWS.

 

This is all very definitely my personal opinion, but I think WWS is unique because of its focus on 1) content and 2) paragraphs. Now I am sure you are thinking that all programs deal with paragraphs:

 

IEW -- intro sentence, 3-5 points, clincher

MCT paragraph town -- organizing descriptions from top to bottom (building) or for some other reason

CW Diogenes/Chreia -- each paragraph has specific types of sentences that go in it

Writing in English by Maxwell - discusses very specifically how to write narratives and descriptive paragraphs

LToW -- trains students in different types of arguments and paragraphs: definition, comparison, relationship, circumstance, testimony (these are called the common topics in classical education)

 

And all programs do deal with paragraphs, but absolutely not to the extent that WWS does. SWB uses the paragraph to focus on *content* and *thinking* through ideas.  She takes 3 years to get through all the material.  And it takes this long because she is teaching material that is either not taught in these other programs or taught in a simpler manner.

 

I am absolutely NOT slamming these other programs.  They do what they are designed to do.  However, SWB has seen a lot of freshmen writers, and has seen where they lack skill -- somewhere (I can't remember where) she describes many students as not having clear thinking, concrete purpose to their paragraphs, something valuable to say.  This is what she is trying to teach.

 

In WWS SWB is going through all the types of arguments that are found in Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student.  Narrative, description, definition, comparison, relationship, circumstance, and testimony.  Clearly, this is very similar to LToW, but WWS is *much* more detailed with how to think about these different topics and has students study how great writers use these lines of argument.  I was going to do LToW this year instead of beta testing WWS3, but then in a side by side comparison, I realized that I was going to need to augment LToW with the material in WWS3, so I decided to use WWS3 first. 

 

So here is the answer to your question (yes, it took me a while to get to it). If I did not have WWS and was only using LToW, I would constantly scour good nonfiction writing (classic essays, excellent books, etc) for example paragraphs and then would work through them with my students to see what specifically these great writers used as their arguments. How great authors effectively communicate using each of the common topics (definition, comparison, relationship, circumstance, testimony).  To find what can be generalized from these great writers' techniques and to then imitate their work. To do this process with each common topic in isolation and to do it in different content areas.  SWB has always said that WWS is designed for parents who either don't have the skill or time to do this process. But this is what is missing from all other writing programs that I have read. 

 

In contrast:

 

Writing in English by Maxwell does exactly what WWS does (but in some ways in a more streamlined manner), but only covers narrative and descriptive paragraphs.

 

IEW focus is 'hands on structure and style; hands off content'; this is the antithesis of the approach SWB is using.  She is all about clear thinking=clear writing.  Why organize and pretty up not-very-good content. I have used IEW and will continue to, but it does not cover content.

 

MCT does not have explicit instruction.  Not a bad thing, but definitely not doing what SWB is doing.

 

Now, I will say again, I am NOT slamming these programs.  I have used them all and will continue to supplement using all of them.  Each serves its purpose.  But to answer the question "what will I be missing", you will be missing the direct instruction of *how* to clearly think through the issues using very specific lines of thought organized into very specifically designed paragraphs. I have read a lot of programs, and WWS is the only one that covers this extensively.  Clearly, some students learn this skill without being 'taught' explicitly and/or without a curriculum; but some don't.  SWB definitely has seen the ones that don't.

 

HTH 

 

I'm happy to answer questions, but really don't want this thread to be about choosing between different curricula.  I want it to be for the sharing of ideas for how to use WWS.

 

 

[lewelma]

I just thought I would give an example of how studying the masters has helped my son's *thinking* and thus his writing. 

 

After re-reading Dickens' descriptive paragraphs about Scrooge (as described in a pp, where he is 'cold') my son emulated this with the planning of a piece of nonfiction.  For week 2 of WWS3, he is to write a 3 paragraph description of a person with 1 paragraph being chronological narrative and 2 paragraphs of description.  Now stop and think about what *you* would do..... 

 

I was really surprised at what ds decided.  He wanted to write about Robert Goddard, a rocket scientist, and he did a couple of hours of reading today while he was a bit under the weather.  I came in to talk to him, and reminded him that he was doing a description, not a summary of this guy's life.  Oh, he knew.  He said "I decided to use the theme of secrecy.  He was a very secret man.  I am going to do my narrative paragraph on what events in his life led him to be secretive, and then do 1 descriptive paragraph on his secretive behaviours and the other descriptive paragraph on how people view him and his secrecy."  Well, as far as I am concerned.... WOW.  He used our study of Scrooge to think about linking all the paragraphs to a single purpose. 

 

At 13 my mathy kid is thinking strategically about writing.  This is what I believe that SWB is after.

[Mrs Twain]

Lewelma,

Thank you for your explanation.

I did not mean my post to be negative.  I gave you a platform to promote WWS.  I would consider that very positive.  I am reading this trying to be convinced to do WWS.  If SWB would like some suggestions, I have a few.  Though I don't want to mention them for risk of being negative again!

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Lewelma,

Thank you for your explanation.

I did not mean my post to be negative. I gave you a platform to promote WWS. I would consider that very positive. I am reading this trying to be convinced to do WWS. If SWB would like some suggestions, I have a few. Though I don't want to mention them for risk of being negative again!

I loved your question and benefitted from the response! Lewelma says she wants a positive thread, and I agree that you provided a perfect platform for her to state more positives.

 

I know the thread initially began with a discussion about WWS not being as independent for some people as they might have expected. Fair enough. That isn't positive or negative, necessarily. It just is. But right out of the gate, that is going to be a huge drawback for some people. Also, aside from the issue of independence, the thread title implies that the program is not as open and go as it first appears, for some people anyway. That is good information! For me, your question was meaningful. I think it is a fair response to this thread to wonder about the special, unique qualities of this program that make it worth doing even though it may not be as independent and/or open and go as I first thought. Positive? Negative? Again, not necessarily. Just helpful to know going in...

 

On a very positive note :D, I already own WWS and currently have WWS2 in my cart. :lol:

[lewelma]

Lewelma,

Thank you for your explanation.

I did not mean my post to be negative.  I gave you a platform to promote WWS.  I would consider that very positive.  I am reading this trying to be convinced to do WWS.  If SWB would like some suggestions, I have a few.  Though I don't want to mention them for risk of being negative again!

 

Oh dear I did not mean to imply that your post was negative, not at all.  I just saw that *my* post might lead to a discussion of various programs, and I'd like to see that as a separate thread.  That's all. 

 

Your question also took me a good number of hours of thinking to identify clearly how WWS is unique. I have been in a quandary as to what to do with my older to make sure he was ready for high school writing next year, and I was not sure that WWS was the best choice.  Now, I am.  So you have helped reduce my own insecurity!

 

 

 I think it is a fair response to this thread to wonder about the special, unique qualities of this program that make it worth doing even though it may not be as independent and/or open and go as I first thought.

 

I completely agree.

 

 

[Pen]

that's a fascinating observation.  I've made a writing lesson plan for my dd7 that includes going through the Traits of Writing book along with Warriner's Models book in 5th grade, before starting WWS, and then integrating WWS in as we get to the specific types of compositions.  The idea is that after having a thorough presentation of the whole, including a focus on writing as a process and studying the great models in Warriner's, the "parts" in WWS will make a lot more sense.  That would also put her getting there in 6th.  I'm doing the plan with dd10 now, using Traits & Warriners, but had planned to skip over the WWS1 part at the end . . . Your comments almost tempt me to repeat some of the weeks with her.  Hmm.  She would balk at doing something that felt like going backwards . . . and she did a fine job the first time, just not as deep as she would now.  Maybe with her, I can just go straight into WWS2 and review WWS1 weeks just as needed.  More to think about.

 

We had our first lesson off this new plan yesterday, btw.  It went really well.  I did a LTOW Intro-style talk, eliciting from her all the "jobs" we have to do when we write, and organized it into the 3 canons, then told her about them.  Then we went through the steps of the writing process as laid out in Warriners.  Today we start working on the Ideas trait, and we'll use Warriner's model exercises in the midst of that as well.  It's really interesting to see how the 6 traits map on to the 3 Canons:  Trait 1 is basically Invention, then Trait 2 is Arrangements, and Traits 3-5 are Elocution.  That's what dd needs the most work on at this point, so I like that Traits will have us focus on that for a good long while.  

 

 

WWS to me already gives the "Ideas" or what to write about part, what if already complete WWS assignments were gone over again a played with in a Traits or Warriner type way as to things like "Voice"?