Fraught with danger this is, but you asked. So, here is an overview of my experience with ATI & Bill Gothard. PT 1

[FaithManor]

Warning,

 

This is not going to be easy for those that have suffered spiritual abuse. It is not going to be easy for those who have dabbled with ATI, didn't get into it at the higher levels or their church leadership rejected it and went no further, etc. and you thought it was all okay. It is going to be tough for you if you are currently in an ATI marriage or church and believe that what has happened to you is God honoring. There are PTSD reactions, anxiety and panic attacks, other types of triggered flight or fight responses one may encounter. If you have ever felt clinically depressed or suicidal from spiritual abuse and you are not certain that you have heeled, this will not be the thread for you.

 

 

 

Ready?

 

Bill Gothard is the brainchild of Advanced Training Institute and Basic Training Institute. At various times his seminars have gone by the name "Training Institute for Advanced for Youth Conflicts" and other similar titles. One of my sister's psychology professors has labeled him as a Megalomaniac, but I'm not certain if he truly is mentally ill, or just a very shrewd business man who plays his part quite well. His non-profit organization currently has a net worth of approximately 94 million dollars.

 

He has never been married. He is now in his 70's.His brother was fired from the organization when he could no longer cover-up the fact that his brother had sex with numerous girls between the age of 17-19 who worked at ATI headquarters, and a couple of these young ladies broke free of their parents and sued ATI for the sexual harassment they endured. They settled out of court so we have no idea what level of complicity the organization admitted to, but despite the fact that the board of directors did issue an edict to Bill Gothard himself to stop making road trips with young, unmarried women, generally when he goes on the road he has 6-8 female assistants that travel with him, according to recent reports, he did not end the practice. Since he is their umbrella of authority while their fathers are absent, they are required to surrender their hotel room keys to him. When the lawsuit broke, allegations were made that he routinely visited these young women in their rooms and they felt very uncomfortable with his gestures, and physical closeness...he likes to do a lot of "hand holding" with them...to comfort them for being away from their families, but also felt they could not ask him to leave because he's the boss, his authority over all ATI followers is absolute so he could get them in a lot of trouble with their families, and they had no idea what their rights were because within the organization women have NO rights. None. It is a sin to report anything abusive to the police. It is a sin to question your father's judgment in any way. It is a sin to question your mother. It is a sin to question your church, your pastor, your uncle,.... And if anyone does anything bad to you, it is because you were in sin first. If you had been more perfect, if you had followed the formula for Christian happiness perfectly, if you adhered faithfully, God would not be allowing bad things to happen to you. It took some extraordinary courage for these young women to speak out.

 

If you want to know more on the subject, you can read a lot of personal stories at recoveringgrace.com

 

Gothard, by his own admission, "believes" himself to be a very special prophet of God. He believes that when he prays, God gives him special interpretations of Bible passages, as well as additional insights that should be revered with the same devotion as scripture. He is careful not to call them scripture himself so as not to scare off those that still have a "ding, ding, warning, ship is about to self destruct in 5 minutes" bell inside their head which will cause them to flee the seminar like it's the Titanic! He is careful how he words things, but the longer you are at his seminars the more emphasis will be placed on the truth of his meditations, interpretations, additional insights, and pronouncements.

 

He proclaims a prosperity gospel. If you follow his formula, again his own words condemn him, a man will be successful and his family happy. A total departure from Jesus' own words on the topic of Christian living where the only guarantee is trials may be ahead for you, but this is what Gothard promises.

 

There is a textbook for the Basic Institute. That is the first layer. Some people never get past that. Of the materials one might gain access to this is the most common one out there. It is much harder to find the Advanced Training Institute textbook, though at various times, copies have been on sale at Amazon and with the advent of the internet, there are more sources as well as Bill selling them online. However, if memory serves, you have to have a reference from your pastor on file in order to purchase fromn his website. I need to check that one out...since I own the materials, I haven't had to track them down so I only know from word of mouth that they used to be difficult to get a hold of...it's possible that in 2013, he hasn't been able to control that so much, and they are more readily available.

 

His special insights, on top of the textbooks, are published in newsletters. Each of these contains a new insight. Now, on the surface this may not seem like a big deal. After all, we humans are always sharing our experiences with each other, our insights, etc. The difference is that it doesn't stop there. Whereas you may ask me, "How did you raise your kids to do X?" (In which case I'll probably shrug and say, "dumb luck" :D  unless I am here where there is relative anonimity, or if you are an IRL friend, we may serious talk) whatever gets shared between us is taken as just simply personal experience and you the listener can take it or leave it as you choose. However, if you are an ATI family, you must begin believing the contents of the newsletter as gospel because the husband is the authority over the woman, and BILL is the authority over the husband, and you must begin adhering to it right away or your family will not be blessed, you will have problems, etc.

 

Of course, since we all have problems and life is messy, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you ask some other member of ATI why your child threw a pencil across the room, the answer you will not get is "Because your child was frustrated with that math assignment and the fact that he's asked for help five times in three days and you are too busy to help!" (true story of an ATI escapee who landed with us for a while - this was the norm at her house), but "You are not submitting to the authority of Mr. Gothard." or "You are not submissive enough." or "You are not following his latest newsletter faithfully." or "You must have an object of the devil in your house. You need to purge." or....you get the idea. If you get sick, you aren't following the diet, If you get injured, God allowed it because someone in your house is in sin. This is the constant message. It wears on a person. It wears them down. It makes them try harder, most of the time. Or, if trying harder doesn't make it better, eventually clincial depression may set in and then the leadership gets called because you sinning, harlot, back stabbing, witch of a woman who won't make your husband's life perfect for him so he can be successful, you need to buck up and do.your.job. The newsletters keep him in money because if just the textbooks or the homeschool curriculum or whatever were all one needed, he wouldn't have such a prominent position in his followers lives. Like a textbook publisher, he's constantly editing, and changing something so you need the latest edition, addendum, pamphlet, etc. It's a business. You need to pay to get the newsletters because you can't live in victory if you don't know what the newest rules and regulations are, you don't know what the word of the lord is that Mr. Gothard has for you. (note, I am not trying to be offensive by failing to capitalize the word lord in this case. Normally, as a Jesus follower, I would. I do this to denote that the Word of the Lord is Jesus, and His physical words are recorded in the Gospels, and whether Mr. Gothard is mentally ill, or power tripping, or some of both, we must be very cautious to attribute to him a level of respect for "his words" that we would normally only give to Jesus. I hope no one is upset by this.)

 

Diagrams used during the 70's and 80's, the height of his "ministry" when he had the most followers and his conventions were absolutely huge, showed God at the top with Gothard next (yes, in his covering of authority teachings, people must submit to him first and then to God, followed by the husband who is holding a hammer which is being brought down on the top of the chisel (the wife), who is chipping away at rocks  (the children). The captions include very skewed Bible verses taken completely out of context to show that God inspires Bill, who inspires the men, who hammer on the wife to get her to submit, who chips away at the children until they are sculpted from raw material - rock - into gem stones. I tried to attach a copy of the diagram here, but since I am not tech savvy, I can't get it to shrink down to a small enough format...the file is too big. I am computer illiterate!

 

So, I'm going to just give you some links:

 

http://www.pfo.org/bgothard.htm

 

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/04/18/recovering-grace-reaches-out-to-those-harmed-by-bill-gothards-teachings/

 

www.billgothard.com (this is his website and please, please, please, don't go there unless you are spiritually strong enough to not be sucked in...he makes his stuff look plausible on the surface.)

 

www.batteredsheep.com

 

And an excellent book on the topic without purchasing anything that would put money into Mr. Bill's coffers is "A Matter of Basic Principles" by Don Venoit, Joy Venoit, and Roy Henzel.

 

I am working at the quilt store today and need to get ready to go. I'll start part 2 either Saturday night or some time Sunday afternoon if at all possible.

 

Faith

 

[bolt.]

Thank you for sharing. I ways try to take people's personal experiences very seriously when they share about things that "look good on the surface".

 

I'm sure some families manage to take his resources "lightly" -- but it sure doesn't sound like they are supposed to be taken lightly (as a simple perspective, or one of many options/resources). It sounds like he's selling an all-encompassing lifestyle.

[Katy]

Yes, thank you.  I had been attracted to some of his teachings in the past, probably from learning about it through the Duggars, but had stumbled upon enough scary stuff while googling that I backed way off.

 

Interested to hear about the Vision Forum stuff too.

[Tangerine]

I tend to be really flippant and cavalier about my experience there, but mine is VERY different than those of others.  I had a single evangelical mother who didn't follow his teachings.  I just happened to meet him, and he took an instant liking to me (not a compliment) and asked me to come work for him.  I wasn't raised in it, so it was always ridiculous to me.  I do feel for the children, girls especially, who are brought up in it.

[Ellie]

Mr. Ellie and I first attended a Basic Youth Conflict seminar in 1974. We went again some years later with our older dd. Happily, none of us was permanently scarred, because we had good, solid teachers at our church, other than the fact that letting Mr. Ellie be in charge of paying the bills was a bad thing, not because he is not careful with money but because he just hated actually sitting down and paying the bills. On time. But otherwise, we remained unscathed, praise God. I think we began to clearly see the issues during the Cabbage Patch doll craze, when he said that many people reported that their families experienced demonic activity until they officially renamed their dolls...seems that some of those dolls came with the names of Hindu "false gods" which somehow caused problems in their homes. Whatever. And then when Gothard started ATI, it was downhill from there.

 

The only thing I would say about your actual article is that Bill Gothard is not "the brainchild of..." ATI and Basic Youth Conflicts and whatnot are *his* brainchildren. He would be, IDK, the creator of them or something.

[Word Nerd]

He has never been married.

 

I've read a little about him and ATI over the years, but somehow I missed this fact. That blows my mind! I just assumed he must have a wife and a large family because he speaks with so much authority on the subject and presumes to tell others that they should.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Seasider]

I would be interested in hearing what a family is required to do to become part of his "organization." Iirc, I've heard of having to sign documents of promising to do/not do lots of stuff... Seemed very limiting right off the bat.

[mamajudy]

Wow! Scary stuff! I'm sorry, but somehow I missed your connection to ATI. Were you in an ATI family? Thank you for the info.

[Twigs]

Thanks for sharing.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Cinder]

Faith, thanks for sharing this.

[plansrme]

He has never been married.

 

I've read a little about him and ATI over the years, but somehow I missed this fact. That blows my mind! I just assumed he must have a wife and a large family because he speaks with so much authority on the subject and presumes to tell others that they should.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I attended several week-long BG seminars when I was in high school, and if I remember correctly, he had a fiancee at one time.  They were delaying marriage until they had memorized the entire book of Proverbs.  Does that ring a bell with anyone?  Her name was maybe Rose or Rosa?  I cannot believe I remember this; high school has been a while.

 

I have no defense of Bill Gothard, and even as a junior-high and high schooler, I recognized much of his teaching for the hooey it is.  The craziness, however, seems to have intensified over the years.  In the seminars I attended, there was no inserting of himself in the umbrella; attendees did not wear skirts only (it was summer--everyone wore shorts); and there was not even a mention of birth control.  Of course this was only the basic class; perhaps the best stuff comes only with the advanced classes. 

 

Even the basic seminar got the story of the infant (adopted, probably--he is not a fan) who was obviously possessed by a demon because he screamed like a banshee when he went into church and then sported an "eerie smile."  BG's description of the eerie smile will forever be etched on my brain.  Blechhh.  In case you are wondering, the possessed infant was cured by the praying of a hedge of thorns.  Also, one can prevent rape by saying "Jesus" to your attacker.  Useful stuff.

 

 

 

 

[PrincessMommy]

my husband went to a few of the seminars way back in the early 80's before we were married.  He thought there was some good stuff mixed with weird stuff, but never really got hooked anyway.  We have two friends from a former church who were heavily involved in it during our homeschooling days.  The stuff they'd say made me not interested in ATI at all.  Too controlling and oppressive (especially for girls and women).  At the time I kept thinking that all these smart girls and the only skill they learn is cake decorating & quilting (not that there's anything wrong with those, but hopefully you know what I mean). 

[Ellie]

I would be interested in hearing what a family is required to do to become part of his "organization." Iirc, I've heard of having to sign documents of promising to do/not do lots of stuff... Seemed very limiting right off the bat.

 

Both parents have to attend the basic and the advanced seminars (they may be called something different today). Men are discouraged from facial hair. o_0 and they are the ones who are supposed to be accountable to TPTB for recordkeeping and whatnot (because, you know, they are the heads of their homes and the wives are only doing what they have been given permission to do ::rolls eyes::) Dresses for women are encouraged (if not officially, then by peer pressure). Apparently, the look of the 50s (especially for men and boys, who tend to look like Gothard clones) is more godly than the look of the 70s and later.

 

The instructional materials look quite good, and I liked the fact that there was so much integrated learning (as opposed to rigid grade levels, for example). I was not  a fan of the character sketches, though.

 

What put me off as much as anything else was the way that families who became members of ATI disappeared from the homeschooling community, even those who had been in leadership. I don't believe that ATI encouraged this, but it happened anyway.

[creekland]

Thanks for sharing, Faith.  I learned quite a bit that I sort of only vaguely pieced together before.

 

FWIW, had I been born into one of those families I suspect I'd have been stoned by age 3... I never liked "women/girl" stuff (crafts, cooking, sewing, etc).  I still don't.  Give me hiking boots and the great outdoors and NEVER come to my house without an appt IF you want to see the inside looking semi-respectable, esp if the weather has been nice lately.  We don't have paths (not a hoarder), but you will find dust bunnies having parties and our table acting as a gathering place for mail/newspapers/etc.

 

No apologies and no plans to change either.

[lllll]

..

[Seasider]

Both parents have to attend the basic and the advanced seminars (they may be called something different today). Men are discouraged from facial hair. o_0 and they are the ones who are supposed to be accountable to TPTB for recordkeeping and whatnot (because, you know, they are the heads of their homes and the wives are only doing what they have been given permission to do ::rolls eyes: :) Dresses for women are encouraged (if not officially, then by peer pressure). Apparently, the look of the 50s (especially for men and boys, who tend to look like Gothard clones) is more godly than the look of the 70s and later.

 

The instructional materials look quite good, and I liked the fact that there was so much integrated learning (as opposed to rigid grade levels, for example). I was not  a fan of the character sketches, though.

 

What put me off as much as anything else was the way that families who became members of ATI disappeared from the homeschooling community, even those who had been in leadership. I don't believe that ATI encouraged this, but it happened anyway.

 

Ellie, now that you mention it, way back in my early hs-ing days, I do remember there being talk of families that had dropped out of circulation after becoming affiliated with Gothard. Creepy!

 

I was specifically asking FaithManor about documents - I remember (again, long ago) a hs-ing acquaintance with older kids sharing that they had been asked to sign some sort of paper that agreed to what you mention above, plus no dancing, no listening to any music besides classical, stuff like that. They couldn't go beyond the basic level because they were both involved in the symphony and he sometimes took gigs with a local band to help put food on the table. Blessing in disguise, really!

Thanks for sharing, Faith.  I learned quite a bit that I sort of only vaguely pieced together before.

 

FWIW, had I been born into one of those families I suspect I'd have been stoned by age 3... I never liked "women/girl" stuff (crafts, cooking, sewing, etc).  I still don't.  Give me hiking boots and the great outdoors and NEVER come to my house without an appt IF you want to see the inside looking semi-respectable, esp if the weather has been nice lately.  We don't have paths (not a hoarder), but you will find dust bunnies having parties and our table acting as a gathering place for mail/newspapers/etc.

 

No apologies and no plans to change either.

 

We may have been separated at birth...  :lol:

 

ETA I do enjoy art and some cooking these days, but strictly on my own terms. 

[Joanne]

{{{Faith}}}

[Xuzi]

I'm noticing a lot of parallels with how Scientology runs things.

[hillfarm]

So what can those of us who are outside do to offer help to any inside who might wish to seek another lifestyle?

 

It would seem that they have opportunities to leave the group if they wanted to. Obviously they can, since you are here and several others have gotten out and written about their experiences.

 

From your description, it certainly sounds very cult-like. But how to "save" people from a cult if they aren't mentally situated to want to be saved? In another thread, we talked about how it would not be good to force Rose in BC's son to come back home from his birthmother's, even though it seemed to be a dangerous and possibly abusive place for him to be. We talked about whether it would be a good idea to destroy him mentally to save him physically. Would these same issues apply to the Gothard women (or any cult, for that matter)? If they are true believers, and really want to stay in spite of abuse, then are we abusing them in our own way by forcing them to leave the group or trying to make them uncomfortable with their choice if they stay? Do we have the right to force someone to do what we want, for their own physical or mental protection? Would that extend to other self-destructive behaviors?

 

I would definitely want to be a resource and an encouragement for anyone who wanted to leave such a group. But I am more conflicted about the best way to proceed if they adamantly want to stay.

[Gentlemommy]

Is ATI connected with Vision Forum? Both are crazy creepy to me, but I wasn't sure if they were the same organizations/taught the same principles.

[mommaduck]

 

What put me off as much as anything else was the way that families who became members of ATI disappeared from the homeschooling community, even those who had been in leadership. I don't believe that ATI encouraged this, but it happened anyway.

 

They are encouraged, through peer pressure, to only hang out with other ATI families (and potential families they are trying to "convert", they don't use that term, but it is what it is). This is how I had a friend and lost a friend. Other ATI families were open to us, but one ATI family moved into the church and created chaos. Trying to hook their girls up with boys in the church, trying to control those boys' family (yeah, they chose the WRONG family to mess with...caused some heartache, but the family had one tough mama...a dear friend...not so dear once we left though, since we weren't willing to play church politics and they climbed in socioeconomic status).

 

It's very much like an MLM...people climb over others, people play politics in their churches and their jobs (military are great for being sucked in...particularly to fundamental baptist and independent bible churches that commonly can be associated with BJU, Hyles-Anderson, and Gothard...in these combinations a lot of politics can be played). People get hurt. Wives try to be perfect and create perfect children. Children get frustrated at having to be perfect, or they get beat down, or they learn to manipulate and play the game well. Sometimes it's the husbands wanting this life (manipulative, controlling). Sometimes it's the wives (trying to do things "right" or feeling "safe" with a list of what will make things "right"...usually due to their own childhood issues and ideals). Praise God when there is a wife that has a husband that is not overly interested (my husband...he also worked long hours and could not come to the Seminar with me which was necessary in order to move along. I got into Basic with a scholarship and we were a very poor couple. We could afford Advanced nor the travel and hotel for it). Panic attacks? Sure. I experienced so much spiritual abuse by several churches in one state, including being stalked by one couple, that I have refused to this point to step foot in that state again.

[mommaduck]

Is ATI connected with Vision Forum? Both are crazy creepy to me, but I wasn't sure if they were the same organizations/taught the same principles.

 

Probably not directly. No doubt that VF has taken directions from Gothard's play books.

[mommaduck]

So what can those of us who are outside do to offer help to any inside who might wish to seek another lifestyle?

 

It would seem that they have opportunities to leave the group if they wanted to. Obviously they can, since you are here and several others have gotten out and written about their experiences.

 

From your description, it certainly sounds very cult-like. But how to "save" people from a cult if they aren't mentally situated to want to be saved? In another thread, we talked about how it would not be good to force Rose in BC's son to come back home from his birthmother's, even though it seemed to be a dangerous and possibly abusive place for him to be. We talked about whether it would be a good idea to destroy him mentally to save him physically. Would these same issues apply to the Gothard women (or any cult, for that matter)? If they are true believers, and really want to stay in spite of abuse, then are we abusing them in our own way by forcing them to leave the group or trying to make them uncomfortable with their choice if they stay? Do we have the right to force someone to do what we want, for their own physical or mental protection? Would that extend to other self-destructive behaviors?

 

I would definitely want to be a resource and an encouragement for anyone who wanted to leave such a group. But I am more conflicted about the best way to proceed if they adamantly want to stay.

 

Try to form a relationship the best you can and just be there. Be the basis to compare normal to what they are living in. Don't react to external judgments and always redirect to an internal integrity and kindness.

[Cinder]

But how to "save" people from a cult if they aren't mentally situated to want to be saved?

 

...

 

If they are true believers, and really want to stay in spite of abuse, then are we abusing them in our own way by forcing them to leave the group or trying to make them uncomfortable with their choice if they stay? Do we have the right to force someone to do what we want, for their own physical or mental protection? Would that extend to other self-destructive behaviors?

 

I have no answers but your questions reminded me of what Carolyn Jessop talks about in Escape (about leaving the FLDS). After everything that happens to them one dd chooses, after she turns 18, to go back to the FLDS. She, Carolyn, talks about how heartbreaking it was to see her dd make that decision. But the turmoil of their transition was too much for the dd and she wanted to go back to what she knew.

[G5052]

I'm glad you posted about this.  College friends raved about the seminars, and some of them ended up homeschooling that way.  So I went as a single professional woman when I had an opportunity.  While I agreed with some of it, his view of women and his formulaic approach to human relationships really turned me off.  The legalism is also troubling.  

 

We've since come across several families who have left ATI but still hold to some of the beliefs, and it is tough to deal with.  They remain so convinced of some of the Gothard doctrines like the "umbrella of protection" that it is tough to get them to see otherwise.  And we watch the influence of their teens on ours.  If one of them came to court my daughter, I'd say no.

 

My friend who used to speak at homeschool conferences also has stories.  Scary stories of both the organization and those involved.  As in any group, there will be all kinds, but when it comes from the top...not good.

[maize]

Thank you for sharing Faith.

[Mommyfaithe]

Didn't read yet, but boy oh boy.....you are one BRAVE mamma.....ok, off to read.

 

 

Eta: Ok, caught up....our area is permeated with Gothardites. We were invited to attend prayer meetings, Bible studies and eventually some ATI Seminars. When I asked dh what he thought we should do, he said "RUN!". I said "How fast? ". And that was the extent of ATI for us. It was also the end of any homeschool relationship I had formed with homeschoolers near our home other than one friend who ran right along with me and my SIL, who is RC, and therefore did not qualify. Funny thing is they still include SIL in their field trips etc. I guess they figured since we were christian and had lots of kids, we were easy bait....lol. Ummmmm...no, not so much.

 

Anyway, my kids were really hurt by all this and it did damage them in a way I could not foresee as these women were the moms of kids my kids had become close friends with, and we're now not allowed to hang out with because we were no longer " kosher". We were outcasts. My kids were made to feel like we did something so sinful..,,not buying into Gothards ideas or cult.....that they were somehow damaged goods or traif < Yiddish for non-kosher>.

 

I watched as the women of these families trampled their husbands and kids all under the guise of " The husband is the leader" as long as he does what I tell him to do, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Really, they were not oppressed by the big bad husband. The husbands mostly hung out in the kitchen sneaking a beer or a glass of wine while the wives out holied each other and made sure their kids sat perfectly still with their hands folded during Bible study. I have to admit, that part of the kids sitting still was impressive. I probably would have fell into this hook line and sinker because I wanted stability in my home and my life so badly, I was willing to do just about anything to get it. The funny thing is I submitted to my husbands desire to hit the deck! Lol!

 

It was only a couple of years later that I found out what it was they were all into....and how close we had become to being sucked in....well, I was close anyway.

 

I am looking forward to your next installment and to hear what others have to say. I am sure there must be some Gothardites here who still follow his teachings etc. maybe their reasoning is sound. My experience however, was it was almost peer pressure to fall in line with Gothards teachings in our homeschool community. I did not, and therefore do not HAVE a homeschool community....and have gone about this solo.....which is why I am on this board so frequently...lol...

[SunnyDays]

(((Hugs))) to you, Faith. This is brave of you, and I'm looking forward to hearing more of the story.

[Ellie]

So what can those of us who are outside do to offer help to any inside who might wish to seek another lifestyle?

 

It would seem that they have opportunities to leave the group if they wanted to. Obviously they can, since you are here and several others have gotten out and written about their experiences.

 

From your description, it certainly sounds very cult-like. But how to "save" people from a cult if they aren't mentally situated to want to be saved? In another thread, we talked about how it would not be good to force Rose in BC's son to come back home from his birthmother's, even though it seemed to be a dangerous and possibly abusive place for him to be. We talked about whether it would be a good idea to destroy him mentally to save him physically. Would these same issues apply to the Gothard women (or any cult, for that matter)? If they are true believers, and really want to stay in spite of abuse, then are we abusing them in our own way by forcing them to leave the group or trying to make them uncomfortable with their choice if they stay? Do we have the right to force someone to do what we want, for their own physical or mental protection? Would that extend to other self-destructive behaviors?

 

I would definitely want to be a resource and an encouragement for anyone who wanted to leave such a group. But I am more conflicted about the best way to proceed if they adamantly want to stay.

 

i think you're overstating the problem.

 

Although Gothard and ATI may seem to have cult-like characteristics, I would never group Gothard with any true cult that has members who need to be rescued. Really.

[Mommy22alyns]

Thank you so much for sharing, Faith.  I look forward to Pt. 2.

[vickjul]

I grew up in the Gothard culture and was homeschooled through ATI beginning with the second year of the program. (My parents applied the first year, but didn't make the cut for the first 100 because we owned a television.) As a "survivor," I have to say that the OP is spot on. In fact, I would probably go a step further than she did and actually call the movement a cult.

 

It's all about power and control. Scary stuff ... and the scars run deep.

[Chris in VA]

Faith, I had a dear friend who says she was "practically raised by Bill Gothard" and at one point, she read a book that he wrote that's only for men to read. He specifically say

S that. Do you know what's in it?

 

s women are not to read it, b/c it will cause them to feel heartbreaking dissatisfaction with their families and husband.

[Katy]

I grew up in the Gothard culture and was homeschooled through ATI beginning with the second year of the program. (My parents applied the first year, but didn't make the cut for the first 100 because we owned a television.) As a "survivor," I have to say that the OP is spot on. In fact, I would probably go a step further than she did and actually call the movement a cult.

 

It's all about power and control. Scary stuff ... and the scars run deep.

 

Anything you want to share?  Do you still follow a lot of his teachings as an adult, or have you gone completely in the other direction? 

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, it made the rounds in Fundamentalist Baptist churches back in the early 1980s. I grew up in S. Baptist churches and knew a handful of people who went that route.  They usually ended up leaving and going to a smaller church with a higher percentage of Gothardites.  My mother went to one seminar. She agreed with this and that, but not most of it.

I would be surprised if Vision Forum, which is Reformed in its doctrine, would be associated with many fundamentalist Baptist Churches who are generally very Arminian on election, who often don't go for  Replacement Theology, and don't tend to go very far into Dominion Theology. They may share the same beliefs about gender roles in the extreme, but it's unlikely they would have any open affiliation because of the often held views of Baptists on doctrines of separation. (Official, not personal.)

 

The root problems are ignorant believers who don't understand their responsibility to know Scripture and ask insight from the Holy Spirit for themselves and don't understand their responsibility to hold leadership accountable for leadership adding works and legalism to the gospel of grace. Some people just want to be sheep so they don't have to think for themselves-it's easier to not be responsible for yourself.  They aren't raised by believers who hand a Bible to someone telling them something is commanded by God and say, "Show me." or "Prove it."   They aren't taught that God is perfectly capable of speaking for Himself in Scripture in an understandable way and  so that we don't need prophets now.  People are perfectly able to read and understand it for themselves.

[vickjul]

Anything you want to share?  Do you still follow a lot of his teachings as an adult, or have you gone completely in the other direction?

I'm homeschooling my kids, I occasionally bake my own bread, and I make liberal use of alternative medicine. Does that count? :-D

 

Beyond that, I've run as far and fast from the whole patriarchy/quiverful movement as I possibly can. Although we consider ourselves (fairly liberal) Christians, we're basically secular homeschoolers, with strong unschooling tendencies. We practice gentle parenting, embrace child-led learning, and see our ODD's special needs and our YDD's iron will as a part of how their brains are wired and who they are -- not an indication of demon possession or demonic oppression stemming from some hidden evil in the toy box. I shudder to think what our girls' lives would be like in the typical Gothard home. :-(

[mommaduck]

Faith, I had a dear friend who says she was "practically raised by Bill Gothard" and at one point, she read a book that he wrote that's only for men to read. He specifically say

S that. Do you know what's in it?

 

s women are not to read it, b/c it will cause them to feel heartbreaking dissatisfaction with their families and husband.

 

I've read a book that was specifically for me and had some of the booklets. I got rid of them. The only thing I have left is the Red Book from Basic.

[PrincessMommy]

I grew up in the Gothard culture and was homeschooled through ATI beginning with the second year of the program. (My parents applied the first year, but didn't make the cut for the first 100 because we owned a television.) As a "survivor," I have to say that the OP is spot on. In fact, I would probably go a step further than she did and actually call the movement a cult.

 

It's all about power and control. Scary stuff ... and the scars run deep.

 

:grouphug:

[KungFuPanda]

 

I was specifically asking FaithManor about documents - I remember (again, long ago) a hs-ing acquaintance with older kids sharing that they had been asked to sign some sort of paper that agreed to what you mention above, plus no dancing, no listening to any music besides classical, stuff like that. They couldn't go beyond the basic level because they were both involved in the symphony and he sometimes took gigs with a local band to help put food on the table. Blessing in disguise, really!

 

We may have been separated at birth... :lol:

 

ETA I do enjoy art and some cooking these days, but strictly on my own terms.

 

It sounds like that Footloose town!

 

 

So what does a higher tier Gothardite do if she gives birth to a disabled child? Does Bill allow wheelchair ramps on his churches? A dear friend actually left a homeschooling co-op when they made it clear that they BELIEVED disabled children are afflicted by sin!

[creekland]

So what does a higher tier Gothardite do if she gives birth to a disabled child? Does Bill allow wheelchair ramps on his churches? A dear friend actually left a homeschooling co-op when they made it clear that they BELIEVED disabled children are afflicted by sin!

Perhaps it's time for a Bible lesson...

 

John 9:2-3 (NIV - sorry, I "know" that version is "sinful" but I'm too lazy to look it up in the KJV on my bookshelf...)

 

"His disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind'?

 

'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.'"

 

IMO, the work of God is not always displayed by healing... many times it is purely the life of the person themselves.

[Woodhaven]

How sad!

 

To quote a verse from the Bible, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from your selves, it is the gift of God - not by works so that no one can boast."  Ephesians 2:8-9

 

Legalism is such a LIE!

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

DH worked with a man than us who had been raised in an ATI home. He even worked at ATI for a while, which he seemed a bit annoyed and/or bitter about. The man said that ATI discouraged early marriage for their workers because they wanted to keep the free help around longer. He felt they had taken advantage of him.

 

This man is unlikely to ever get married. He's in probably in his late 30s and is arrogant. I can't imagine what it would be like to be married to a man who thinks he's always right and demands his way, even with his co-workers. If he does marry, I'm sure he'll expect perfect obedience from his wife.

 

At work, one of DH's friends liked to listen to Jars of Clay or other Christian rock bands. It made this man very uncomfortable, since he had been raised to believe anything with a backbeat was "evil rock music." Once or twice I have wondered if ragtime music would offend him.

[MyThreeSons]

The church we were in when we lived in CA was very heavily influenced by Mr. Gothard. Three aspects the OP hasn't mentioned so far: music, reversals, and courtship.

 

In summary: any music with a "back beat" is bad. That kind of music can make you sin. Not only is it not appropriate in church, but it must not be listened to at all. Parents were encouraged to go through their kids' rooms, bookbags, etc. and root out the evil music.

 

And: couples who have sinned by "cutting off the seed" need to repent, and have a reversal surgery done. They have a list of doctors around the country who will do reversal surgeries at a discount. I remember when my middle ds was born and we did a baby dedication at our church, two of the the three other babies the same age were "reversals". A big deal was made about how blessed the families were to have had these babies. And, as my mom said, "I didn't need to know how they were conceived." I still see posts about these two (now 19yo), and IMO, the parents have gone way overboard with how they treat these "special" children. They are great kids, no doubt, and maybe the parents have extra time to put into them, because they were older when the kids were born, but the parents just seem to be way over the top with praise for these kids, while we hardly ever hear about their other children.

 

The ATI families we knew were into very legalistic, rigorous, rules-based courtship. The strange thing was that there seemed to be a disproportionate number of unwed pregnancies among these courting couples.

[Tangerine]

As to the music: at homeschool skate parties, I've seen families either leave because of the music, (as in Christian pop and the limbo) or bring their own. Skating to How Great Thou Art is a blast. And when you eat out with Bill, he will request that they turn off the music in the restaurant.

[Twigs]

Wow.  Yucky. 

 

I remember hearing his name quite often back when we began hs'ing (late 80's).  I vaguely remember seeing some of his stuff somewhere and rejecting it.  Too legalistic, maybe? for me.

 

I tend to pass on anything that starts heaping on the work and guilt, whether it be preachers, books, churches, anythiing.  I always figure I already have enough rules and regulations in my life without voluntarily piling on more.  I have the government to do that for me these days.  :glare:

 

It has always been fascinating to me how basic Biblical principles are so freeing, and the works-oriented systems (cults, etc.) are so suffocating - even just reading about them.  To me, anyway.  I think that's how I'm usually able to tell the difference between the 2.  If I start feeling suffocated in the least, I get far, far away from it.

 

Great insight on how to recognized lies. Thanks for sharing.

 

…

 

The root problems are ignorant believers who don't understand their responsibility to know Scripture and ask insight from the Holy Spirit for themselves and don't understand their responsibility to hold leadership accountable for leadership adding works and legalism to the gospel of grace. Some people just want to be sheep so they don't have to think for themselves-it's easier to not be responsible for yourself.  They aren't raised by believers who hand a Bible to someone telling them something is commanded by God and say, "Show me." or "Prove it."   They aren't taught that God is perfectly capable of speaking for Himself in Scripture in an understandable way and  so that we don't need prophets now.  People are perfectly able to read and understand it for themselves.

:iagree:

[Little Nyssa]

Sounds horrible.  :grouphug:

[Guest]

Thank you for having the courage to open this discussion, Faith. :grouphug:

 

 

[Halftime Hope]

I just wanted to chime in that I believe that some of the early Basic Youth Conflicts material was very helpful to people like my dh who needed to hear that they were made in God's image, according to his plan, and precious to God.  Dh says that because of his  dyslexia he was a very, very angry, bitter teen who came to view himself in a healthy way because of the scripture he learned through IBYC.  He went to an Advanced seminar several times, but I don't think that had the impact that the original materials had.

 

I went upon dh's recommendation, twice, 8 or 10 years later, but the material did not sit the same way with me.  There were a few principles that were helpful, but the patriarchy and legalism did not sit well with me.   

 

It sounds like things degenerated terribly from the very early years. 

 

 

 

 

[Onceuponatime]

I have been friends with 2 ATI families for over 20 years. They have relaxed and loosened up a lot since I first met them. They had no choice or they would have lost relationship with some of their children.

 

Here are some things I encountered that they tried to "teach" or "encourage" me to do and think about:

 

*Dresses and skirts only for females, pants were men's clothing or too revealing of the women's anatomy. Even women's clothing, jewelry and makeup was to follow certain guidelines.

*All natural everything, if you could manage it. No birth control at all, home births, natural medicine, cloth diapers, breast feeding, grain grinding, etc.

*Pearl and Enzo style child training. Blanket training a mobile infant. Letting babies cry it out to get them on a sleep schedule. Having older children provide child care and housekeeping  for the busy mother.

*Courtship, purity rings

*homeschooling with religious exemption

* No college for girls, only ATI training schools. Apprenticeships for boys.

*No TV, no rock style music

*Creation science all the way

* and every single thing that goes wrong is a result of a sin in your life. My friend was certain that her varicose veins were because she had used birth control when she was first married. It had nothing to do with the fact she had born 5 children at the time. (Now she has 11)

*There was a great deal of talk about "carnal" christians.

 

I am sooo thankful my husband wasn't the slightest bit interested in going to one of the lectures that would come through our area. The influence these women had on me was bad enough. I ended up depressed and with a case of scrupulosity. I felt like I couldn't do anything right because I was so sinful and these people were so much better at the true christian life than I was. It was later that I began to see the inconsistencies that happened more and more and were justified even though they still remain involved with ATI to some extent. These two families gave up stressing manyof the above things because they valued their marriage and their children more. In later years, I suggested to one of my friends that ATI was cult like and she still disagreed, even though she had just been expressing regrets about how she had raised some of her children and the way she had related to her husband.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Well, if Gothard started out his early career with openly stating outrageous beliefs, he wouldn't have gotten nearly as powerful. So either Gothard kept it toned down at the beginning, he became more legalistic over time, or perhaps your husband latched on to what he needed to hear and the rest went over his head (since you didn't say how old he was when he attended).

 

In any case, I'm glad you didn't get sucked in.

 

When my oldest was a baby, I asked another woman at church about date nights. This ATI mom of six or seven looked at me and asked, "Why would I ever want time away from my kids?" Way to help a new, struggling mom out! Between that comment and the Vision Forum worshippers, it was not any easy place to be when adjusting to parenthood. I didn't need platitiudes about children always being a blessing or wouldn't it be great to have 15-20 kids or blah blah blah. Looking back, I should have found a secular group of new moms - women who wouldn't feel sinful for saying that they weren't enjoying being moms like they expected.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It sounds like Bill Gothard's job is to make Vision Forum seem slightly more normal. I don't remember Doug Phillips harping on illness being the result of sin. Everything else on that list is about the same.