Shocked that this book is on the Grade 11 common core reading list. Scary!

[nmoira]

I'm included. At the same time, TEN YEAR OLDS ARE NOT ASKING TO READ THE BLUEST EYE. Show me one person who has said that. Ten year old interest will not fall to this title. While mine will one day read Harry Potter (mostly like) they are currently listening to Sisters Grimm. One child is mostly interested in non-fiction. The other is reading a title (I shudder to mention, oh wait no I don't because I feel the need to have to explain sarcasm) Heck. AND it was checked out from our public library. The same one that has copies of The Bluest Eye.

Heck: Where the Bad Kids Go!

 

(Basye is a local author.)

[Luanne]

Can you please stop telling people what they have and haven't done or experienced? You've done this several times in this thread. (Yes, I know you were not addressing me, but it's...tiresome.)

 

 

I have certainly put books back on the shelf without reading them. But when I got in line and the person in font of me was buying the book I never told them that had loose standards or the book was terrible. I didn't know enough to judge them and could concede that there may be more to the book than I saw in my glance. Crazy, huh?

 

What I am finding tiresome is people saying we don't know this is a bad book because we haven't read the entire book.  I don't have to read an entire book to know whether it is garbage or not.  THAT is my point.  If I am bothering you that much, ignore me.

[momma2three]

Then being....?

 

Prior to the Iliad, I guess?  There's plenty of sex and rape in there.

[Luanne]

I'm included. At the same time, TEN YEAR OLDS ARE NOT ASKING TO READ THE BLUEST EYE. Show me one person who has said that. Ten year old interest will not fall to this title. While mine will one day read Harry Potter (mostly like) they are currently listening to Sisters Grimm. One child is mostly interested in non-fiction. The other is reading a title (I shudder to mention, oh wait no I don't because I feel the need to have to explain sarcasm) Heck. AND it was checked out from our public library. The same one that has copies of The Bluest Eye.

 

No one said those exact words.  Several people did say they would NEVER ban any book from any of their children.  That means they are willing for any of their children to read any book at any age even if it isn't age appropriate.

[Mandy in TN]

Then being....?

Quote from the original post. ;)

Mandy

[Forgiven]

Reading about something, and reading about something in intense detail are a little different. Knowing the disgusting nature and having an understanding of what it is about is different than reading or hearing every little tiny detail of what is happening.

I got brave today, or perhaps somewhat foolish. I read the book. I went onto my kindle and got it wanting to read it while I had some quiet time this evening. Yes this books shows some things that need to be looked at, problems in our society that need to be seen. Over all I found it well written. I like that she came at it from numerous points, allowing people to see the back story and how these problems arise not from just one thing, but from numerous different things, from everyone around it. Problems from their past that were left undealt with and after festering contribute to perpetuating the abusive cycle. My problem is that she went much farther than that. Writing about s*x between a husband and wife in the extremely detailed and explicit words what more than I would recommend for any teenager. Is it necessary to talk about the sounds, movements, and sensations of the action for people to know exactly what is happening. I found it rather crude and rough and I am not overly sensitive when it comes to talking about s*x. These explicit 'scenes' are relatively frequent and somewhat unnecessary for a reader to understand what was happening in the book. They seem to be in there for the pleasure of talking about s*x, which I know seems to be rather popular, but not really something I would put on a recommended reading list for teenagers (I wouldn't ban it either, but I've said that in past posts).

 

I keep reading in the replies on here how sometimes details are needed for understanding. What strikes me as odd is that this much detail wasn't even needed when I had to talk to the police or to CPS. Yes detail, but not nearly like this. This much detail leaves a horrified fascination. I see no benefit in my kids hearing that. When they are older they will hear my story, but wording in the way this book worded it, makes it into another s*x act, not the degrading struggle for power that it is.

 

People have said on here, that those apposed to the book are apposed to something they won't even read, and have seemed to view that position as a show of ignorance. I've read the book, and after throwing up, I am more strongly apposed to it, despite the good writing in between all the s*x. I am not appalled that someone wrote it, or that someone would read it (after all I have just read it), I am somewhat appalled that it would be something that an adult would hand to a child and expect them to read it. On a recommended list perhaps, because then a person can pick and choose what they can handle, but in a classroom situation, it would be something that would have me well beyond just upset at the school.

 

Right on. I skip s*x scenes in books because I can't stand to read about it. I don't need the gory details. I know what happens. The s*x scenes in romance novels aren't as detailed as what I've read in the excerpts (I know, I haven't read the entire book *gasp*). I don't need to read the entire book because I turned red and embarrassed just from the excerpts. What gets me is that every thing I've heard about this book from those who are for it, make me want to read it, but then there are those pesky s*x scenes. Ugh. Why do people ruin good stories with them? I can skip scenes like that in romance novels, but the excerpts I read from this book look more like what you'd find in erotica--too much detail. Definitely not my taste.

 

Hmmm...maybe I can find an edited version, where all the detailed s*x scenes are flitered out, because the premise of the book does sound like something I'd like to read.

[nmoira]

Quote from the original post. ;

Ah, the good old days before I turned grey.

[Χά�ων]

What I am finding tiresome is people saying we don't know this is a bad book because we haven't read the entire book.  I don't have to read an entire book to know whether it is garbage or not.  THAT is my point.  If I am bothering you that much, ignore me.

Actually, I think you do not want to be ignored. I think you want to start arguments and get the thread shut down. Your most recent posts have either been rude or are so far out there trying to draw conclusions based on nothing with the intent to rile people up.

[Luanne]

Actually, I think you do not want to be ignored. I think you want to start arguments and get the thread shut down. Your most recent posts have either been rude or are so far out there trying to draw conclusions based on nothing with the intent to rile people up.

 

I think the people who are in love with this book are just as much wanting to get it shut down.  It isn't just me who is being argumentative.  I've seen you try to rile people up in numerous threads so I don't think you have much room to be talking.  I think I have a right to voice my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion that isn't my problem.  I don't care for yours and have made it a point not to directly talk to you in any thread until now when you are the one who is starting it.

[idnib]

What I am finding tiresome is people saying we don't know this is a bad book because we haven't read the entire book.  I don't have to read an entire book to know whether it is garbage or not.  THAT is my point.  If I am bothering you that much, ignore me.

 

You're not bothering me that much.  :)

 

I guess for me it's the certainty, the unwillingness to say that you're 99.9% sure it's garbage, but maybe it's not, because you haven't read it. I make judgments all the time about potential books to read, but I am at least willing to concede they are pre-judgments and not as informed as the judgments of people who've read the book. In other words, if I decide a book is going to be garbage ahead of time (and I do this all the time) I acknowledge that the person who declared it garbage after reading it has a more informed opinion than mine.

 

I am also disturbed by the general trend in the U.S. that all opinions are equally valid, regardless of how informed or experienced one is, so that may color my view.  :001_smile:

[nmoira]

I am also disturbed by the general trend in the U.S. that all opinions are equally valid, regardless of how informed or experienced one is, so that may color my view. :001_smile:

Amen.

[Corraleno]

One doesn't need to read the entire book to know that they don't want to read it and definitely don't want their high schooler to read it.  I guess YOU have never glanced over a book, read parts of it, and decided you didn't want to read it.  Doubtful!

 

I confess — I once picked up a book in a store, skimmed through it, shuddered, put it back on the shelf, and vowed to keep it away from my children!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(It was Saxon Math)

 

Jackie

[Χά�ων]

I think the people who are in love with this book are just as much wanting to get it shut down.  It isn't just me who is being argumentative.  I've seen you try to rile people up in numerous threads so I don't think you have much room to be talking.  I think I have a right to voice my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion that isn't my problem.  I don't care for yours and have made it a point not to directly talk to you in any thread until now when you are the one who is starting it.

LOL!!

 

I didn't know you had a sense of humor! I do not have an issue with someone stating an opinion as an opinion and holding it as their own. Forcing an opinion onto another or attempting to pass it as fact is a different situation all together.

 

 

 

Why did you decide to stop your self-imposed ban on talking to me now? What made my humorous post, #552, stand out so much that you decided to quote me and engage me in conversation?

[mommymilkies]

Can we just go back to bashing Algebra and Hemingway??????? Or dancing in red pants????

You wear pants when you dance? Huh.  That's new.

[Elfknitter.#]

No one said those exact words. Several people did say they would NEVER ban any book from any of their children. That means they are willing for any of their children to read any book at any age even if it isn't age appropriate.

 

Then this is a moot point because you've yet to provide examples of 10 year olds reading this book against their parent' wishes.

[mommymilkies]

You clearly don't know what graphic detail is then.  I have never read a book that had as much as this one does. 

What have you read?  The phone book?

 

The incest and the orgy.

Man, I must be oblivious. lol  I was totally into Anne Rice as a teen.  It must have desensitized me because I don't remember that being in there.  And I read it a few times!  I must be senile.

[Forgiven]

Exactly! Please see the thread where someone asked if they were weird for not being able to see mental images. Several of us are the extreme opposite. We SEE, SMELL, and sometimes even HEAR...we can near practically LIVE what we read in our mind as we're reading it. I literally get lost in a book, in words...I only see the printed words for a moment till I'm lost in them and see the visuals and don't even realise I'm reading the print of them. As a child and teenager, it took my mother or my teacher calling my name several times before I could come out of the book and hear them. I DON'T need that kind of experience with this kind of book. Redeeming Love was enough for me and didn't need graphic descriptions (Francine Rivers). Where the Heart Is by Billie Letts is another and it also did not go into graphic detail about the events.

 

Thanks for bringing up Redeeming Love. That is such a great book and deals with some bad stuff, but it doesn't have all the details, yet was riveting. I haven't read Where the Heart Is, but now plan to. Thanks for the rec. ;)

[LucyStoner]

Then this is a moot point because you've yet to provide examples of 10 year olds reading this book against their parent' wishes.

 

Or with a parent's blessings for that matter.  10 year olds don't read this book.  Maybe there an an exception to prove the rule but I can't really see my 10 year old son and his best friend putting down Calvin and Hobbes and their robotics stuff and wandering home from the library with The Bluest Eye.  10.  Ten.  Do I need to add some explanation marks?

[Cricket]

Ah, the good old days before I turned grey.

About the time this thread started? :-)

[Χά�ων]

Or with a parent's blessings for that matter.  10 year olds don't read this book.  Maybe there an an exception to prove the rule but I can't really see my 10 year old son and his best friend putting down Calvin and Hobbes and their robotics stuff and wandering home from the library with The Bluest Eye.  10.  Ten.  Do I need to add some explanation marks?

Yes. Here I will provide them for you

 

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dana]

Or with a parent's blessings for that matter. 10 year olds don't read this book. Maybe there an an exception to prove the rule but I can't really see my 10 year old son and his best friend putting down Calvin and Hobbes and their robotics stuff and wandering home from the library with The Bluest Eye. 10. Ten. Do I need to add some explanation marks?

I think I showed my son (11) where my Morrison books are on the shelf and told him that he'll be reading them in or by high school, but I haven't seen him sneaking any off the shelf. He did get in trouble today for reading comics when he should have been working though.

 

Little booger started with Calvin and then I found him at the dining room table reading the comics from the paper. I wouldn't put it past him to read the paper too, although he didn't ask about Syria today (think that was yesterday from the headlines).

 

I will post back if I learn he picked up any of her works though.

[Dory]

Then this is a moot point because you've yet to provide examples of 10 year olds reading this book against their parent' wishes.

 

At that age, I read anything I could get my hands on including some books that meant for high school and early college. I didn't always know what they meant, but I read them anyway. The only reason I didn't read books such as TBE was because they weren't around for me to get my hands on.

[Elfknitter.#]

At that age, I read anything I could get my hands on including some books that meant for high school and early college. I didn't always know what they meant, but I read them anyway. The only reason I didn't read books such as TBE was because they weren't around for me to get my hands on.

Did your parents place restrictions on reading? Had you read it at age 10, I'd be curious of your interpretations. Is it possibly it wasn't available due to an adult restriction?

[Elfknitter.#]

Dp

[mamaraby]

I think the people who are in love with this book are just as much wanting to get it shut down. It isn't just me who is being argumentative. I've seen you try to rile people up in numerous threads so I don't think you have much room to be talking. I think I have a right to voice my opinion. If you don't like my opinion that isn't my problem. I don't care for yours and have made it a point not to directly talk to you in any thread until now when you are the one who is starting it.

I don't want the thread shut down, but I do take issue with the value judgements you've made about parents who don't censor their children's reading selections according to "age appropriateness." You've stated in another thread that parents like me are "damaging" our children by not doing so.

 

See, the difference is, while I may not agree with you on this issue, I don't think you are damaging your children in any way. I think there are other, less restrictive ways that you could go about achieving your goals/values in this matter, but I make no value judgements about that.

 

I don't have to slam down hard and fast barriers in order for my children to generally end up around their "age appropriateness" when it comes to what they read. They do that naturally on their own by following their interests. Them ending up outside of that general area is not the end of the world.

 

I think the other part that's missing is that no one is suggesting that any of these hypothetical students read the book in isolation. In both the instance of 11th grade common core and your slippery slope 10yr old example, they are reading it in the context of a discussion/literary analysis and there is much value to be had in that sort of open conversation.

[Dory]

Did your parents place restrictions on reading? Had you read it at age 10, I'd be curious of your interpretations. Is it possibly it wasn't available due to an adult restriction?

 

My parents were rather conservative in many ways, and didn't have much for books like that around, although I read all of my moms nursing textbooks and those were pretty shocking for a 10yo. At that age I would've found it pretty confusing, especially with what I was experiencing in life at that time. I don't think I would've understood the twisted side of it very well yet. That sort of thinking seemed too normal to me then.

[kubiac]

And that's is MY point, those details are so graphic, why would you WANT that in your mind?  

 

 

Can't you imagine that Toni Morrison, a woman and an artist, wouldn't write such a book--wouldn't put herself in such a state of mind--unless she had a higher purpose than salacious exploitation? Don't you think maybe she was working something out that was worth crossing bounds of propriety for?

 

Look, when I was a kid, a teenager and a twentysomething, I used to seek out Holocaust literature. And on a related note, later, but before I ever had children, I used to seek out gruesome true stories about miscarriages and fetal death and SIDS babies. Why? Because I was so so scared of those things. Terrified. I didn't understand how such things could happen, or how any human could ever ever bear up under the terror. Why would a person even bother to survive? How could you possibly endure something like that? What happens when that happens to you?

 

Me, I was terrified and fascinated by the idea of ethnic cleansing death camps and by the idea of a fetus in a toilet bowl, so I read about those things. To exorcise the fear and uncertainty that had grown up around them, I needed to educate myself.

 

I read about nightmares because I needed to know, and because I wanted to know, and because in a perverse way--yes, perverse--it gave me strength to face such distant improbable horrors, not to mention the ones much closer to home in my mundane, safe, suburban yet still overwhelming young life.

 

The world is not sanitary and proper, so we can't demand such moral hygiene from our literature. 

 

Don't include this book on your homeschooled child's reading list if you don't want to, of course, but don't please presume to put blinders on everyone else as well.

[awisha.]

I thought I was done but I have to say this.

RAPE IS NOT SEX!!!!! Being interested in sex is so completely different from being raped it shouldn't'even be mentioned in the same sentence!!!!

 

And I'm going to repeat myself for the people here who can't seem to grasp this simple concept.

 

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK.

 

ITS ABOUT THE GRAPHIC DETAILS TOLD FROM THE ABUSERS PERSPECYIVE THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Not one person has been able to say what value those descriptions add to the story other than to say it helps us understand the abuser. Someone even stated thAt he was sexually abused also. Some of us here must be more intelligent than others because apparently we can read books THAT ARE ABOUT INCEST without these TRASHY, PORNOGRAPHIC, SATANIC descriptions and understand very clearly that the abuser is . A disturbed individual.

 

One more time:

 

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE CC ONTENT OF THE BOOK.

 

Btw, I don't believe the book should be banned. Toni morrison does have the same rights as the rest of us. Even pedophiles have rights, they even have web sites and groups where they promote sex between adults as nd children as "beautiful"

Perhaps some of you think your children ( they ARE children no matter what their age and most parents want to protect them their whole lives) check those out as w ell. While you're at it, get them a job in a strip club, maybe hang out with some drug dealers, maybe move in with t h a family that beats their kids. After all reading book like A Child Call e d It that doesn't have all the graphicdetails from the mother (who did beat the child. True story) point of view certainly wouldn't help your children understand how sick she is.

STOP USING CAPSLOCK!!

[unfrumpable.]

The incest and the orgy.

 

I don't remember any incest or orgy in Brave New World. It's been a little bit since I've read it last though.

[Elfknitter.#]

I don't remember any incest or orgy in Brave New World. It's been a little bit since I've read it last though.

Me neither.

[Joker]

I've read it all and it has been interesting.

 

I was able to read and watch many things when I was a teen and young adult that I can no longer handle now that I am a mother (especially to two girls).

 

I was sexually abused as a very young girl and I was still able to read these things and gain something from them. My problem with these works didn't appear until I had children of my own. I allow my dds to read books that are now be difficult for me and we discuss them. I feel many of these have been important and I'm glad we were able to have those talks.

 

I get both sides. These types of books/movies/etc. cause me great anxiety now, but I remember getting something different (and helpful) from them once upon a time.

 

[LucyStoner]

I read The Color Purple the month before I turned 12.  It was on the shelf at my paternal grandmother's house but she and my parents were ok with me reading it.  I didn't read it out of prurient interest.  I probably got more out of it than I would have had the preceding year of my life been less traumatic.  I don't know if I would let a 12 year old read it or not.  I wouldn't assign it at that age.  But then again, I am raising my comparatively privileged sons and not myself.  Probably I would let them.  I didn't read the Bluest Eye, or any Morrison books until high school.  I did read a lot of high school and college level literature, mostly pre-20th century classics when I should have been in middle school (I walked out of the 7th grade and never went back until 9th grade).  Some of that was certainly not serene or pretty.  

[LucyStoner]

I've read it all and it has been interesting.

 

I was able to read and watch many things when I was a teen and young adult that I can no longer handle now that I am a mother (especially to two girls).

 

I was sexually abused as a very young girl and I was still able to read these things and gain something from them. My problem with these works didn't appear until I had children of my own. I allow my dds to read books that are now be difficult for me and we discuss them. I feel many of these have been important and I'm glad we were able to have those talks.

 

I get both sides. These types of books/movies/etc. cause me great anxiety now, but I remember getting something different (and helpful) from them once upon a time.

 

Good point.  Post motherhood, I have had troubling moments from everything from commercials to TV crime shows to movies to certain books.  Motherhood definitely shifted my tolerance level for a lot of things.  

[Farrar]

this is the discussion that never ends...

it just goes on and on, my friends

somebody started typing thinking everyone'd agree

then we started arguing forever now you see

this is the discussion that never ends...

it just goes on and on, my friends

somebody started typing thinking everyone'd agree

then we started arguing forever now you see

this is the discussion that never ends...

 

(Sorry.  Kids I used to teach used to sing the original to make every nuts during clean up.  Sometimes it still gets stuck in my head.)

 

[Elfknitter.#]

:lol:

[Χά�ων]

:lol:

[awisha.]

[awisha.]

[Mandy in TN]

Someone suggested Why the Caged Bird Sings. Good Grief, how have we not suggested that one as a suitable build up/ pre-book/ similar themes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (enough?)

[Mandy in TN]

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

Author African American(check), woman (check), African American experience(check), the right themes (check)

 

It works right? right?

[Catwoman]

Well, all I can say is... It's about time!!! :hurray:

[Elfknitter.#]

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

Author African American(check), woman (check), African American experience(check), the right themes (check)

 

It works right? right?

I wish I had thought of this one. I have not read it and now know what to put on hold at my library. A basic compare/ contrast for myself would be good to do for knowledge sake.

[Mandy in TN]

I wish I had thought of this one.

Me, too. When I heard it, I wondered how no one had mentioned it.

[lailasmum]

My husband just finished serving on a jury where they convicted a man of raping and murdering his 14 WEEK old daughter.  There could have been 18 year olds on that jury and they would have been expected to listen to the explicit testimonies and look at the grisly images in order to fulfill their civic duty. 

 

I don't think we do ourselves or society any favors when we cite sensitivity and avoid the ickier parts of the Great Conversation.

 

Wendy

 

Absolutely. I was on a jury last year for a child abuse case. Three of my fellow jurors were between 18 and 20. It was a harrowing and tiring case with graphic descriptions of what went on.

[Laura Corin]

Bolded, I definitely agree. I did that once, going off of another "conservative" family's suggestion. Ugh. Yes, good conversation, but my son wishes he hadn't read the book and asked if there was a way to bleach his brain (A Brave New World...a classic in some circles, I know).

 

I know - all that zipper fetish...

 

L